When a nurse is your health-care provider, you’re at risk

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.
Status
Not open for further replies.

Taurus

Paul Revere of Medicine
15+ Year Member
Joined
Jul 27, 2004
Messages
3,218
Reaction score
663
When a nurse is your health-care provider, you’re at risk

By Betsy McCaughey

January 6, 2015 | 8:16pm

nurse.jpg


Next time you’re a patient, ask whether your “health-care provider” is a doctor.

On Jan. 1, New York changed the standard for who can practice medicine, putting patients at risk. It became the 19th state to capitulate to aggressive lobbying by nursing groups to let some nurses play doctor without going to medical school.

In these states, nurse practitioners can do everything primary-care doctors do — diagnose, treat, prescribe and even open their own independent practices — once they’ve worked 20 months under a physician’s direction.

That is, “can” legally. That doesn’t mean they have the know-how. And therein lies the danger.

Don’t get me wrong: Nurses are the backbone of the health-care system, and generally they’re better than doctors at educating patients and providing many types of routine care.

But their training is different, and it doesn’t prepare them to do everything doctors do — especially diagnosing less common conditions.

Nurse practitioners are registered nurses who’ve earned an advanced degree. But they’ve never been to medical school; they have half the years of training a doctor gets (generally six years beyond high school, instead of 12), and they don’t take the same state licensing exam as doctors.

So you’ll be fine if you have a urinary-tract infection or a sprain. But don’t assume they have the in-depth knowledge to diagnose an uncommon illness or handle a complex problem.

Indeed, Health Maintenance Organizations cooked up the term “health-care provider” to blur the differences between physicians and less expensive caregivers.

Dr. Sandeep Jauhar, a cardiologist at Long Island Jewish Medical Center, criticized New York’s law when it was enacted last April.

Medical students with “two years of clinical training are not considered fit to practice medicine,” he warned, but in the Empire State “nurse practitioners with perhaps even less clinical education will be allowed to do so.”

Lower cost is why insurers, drugstore chains with walk-in clinics and federal health programs applaud replacing doctors with nurse practitioners. It’s also why the Veterans Administration is considering cutting its backlog by sending vets to nurse practitioners.

But they don’t save money in the long run, Dr. Jauhar suggested, because they tend to order more CAT scans and MRIs than physicians treating similar patients — probably as a crutch to try to get to the right diagnosis.

A 2013 analysis in the New England Journal of Medicine shows why physicians oppose the change, and it isn’t to keep business for themselves. (With the physician shortage, that’s not an issue.)

Doctors know that nurse practitioners get less education in how organs and bodily systems work; they’re trained to treat symptoms.

One doctor I spoke with recalled a patient with apparent signs of adult-onset diabetes. A nurse practitioner, he said, would’ve prescribed medicine to produce insulin.

But the patient mentioned having had a gallstone attack. Connecting the two events, the doctor realized that a gallstone had become lodged in her pancreatic duct, “burning out” her pancreas and keeping her from producing insulin. No insulin medication would undo that.

That detective work, he said, drew on what is taught in medical schools.

Dr. Jane Fitch, president of the American Society of Anesthesiologists, began as a nurse anesthetist but later earned a medical degree. Speaking out against nurses practicing independently, she looks back on being a nurse and says, “I didn’t know what I didn’t know.”

Nursing organizations suffer from that over-confidence.

These groups point to studies purporting to show that patients do as well with a nurse practitioner as with a primary-care doctor. But most of these studies are sponsored by nursing outfits or lack scientific rigor.

Take the oft-touted study by lead author Mary Mundinger: It only lasted six months, so most patients saw their “provider” only once, and there’s no way to tell who fared better in the longer term.

“Far from convincing,” a Journal of the American Medical Association editorial termed that study. Longer-term studies are needed.

One good outcome of last December’s federal budget deal is that doctors’ groups convinced Congress to delay the VA’s plan to substitute nurse practitioners for primary-care doctors until the risks could be assessed. If only New York lawmakers had shown the same concern for patient safety.

Betsy McCaughey is a senior fellow at the London Center for Policy Research.

Members don't see this ad.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 4 users
Oh, this discussion is going to be marvelous (I hope.)

Shall we 'waft' this thread's link over to the allnurses forum? ;)
 
  • Like
Reactions: 4 users
I was excited to read the comments, but apparently new york post doesn't do a comments section :/
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users
Members don't see this ad :)
As much as I disagree with increased scope of practice for nps, this is an article from the new york post which is not exactly known for journalistic excellence. Also, the writer is not even a physician. I don't like it when people from outside healthcare weigh in on our battles.

"Next time you’re a patient, ask whether your “health-care provider” is a doctor."
Everyone in health care and their mothers is a "doctor" nowadays. You have to tell people in the hospital that you're a real doctor as opposed to the rest of the army of white coat wearing, stethoscope toting imposters
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
I thought a good way to make the designations clearer was to refer to MD/DO as physician. That is, until I saw an NP refer to herself as a "nurse physician." There's no winning for losing.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 14 users
This is gonna be good
*grabs popcorn*
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users
I thought a good way to make the designations clearer was to refer to MD/DO as physician. That is, until I saw an NP refer to herself as a "nurse physician." There's no winning for losing.
:confused:

:inpain:

That hurts the worst! I was going to say I prefer 'physician' 100% over 'healthcare provider'
 
As much as I disagree with increased scope of practice for nps, this is an article from the new york post which is not exactly known for journalistic excellence. Also, the writer is not even a physician. I don't like it when people from outside healthcare weigh in on our battles.

It would have been preferable to be the NYT but given their penchant for doctor bashing I can't see it being accepted for publication there.

I actually like it when a non-healthcare professional weighs in; it removes the stench of bias, greed, professional jealousy and fear, etc that physicians are accused of when we write similar articles.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 18 users
I wonder how deluded you have to be to think that you can get equivalent outcomes from a CRNA and a residency trained anesthesiologist? The depth of knowledge and training rigor are on totally different levels. It is such common sense to me that I can't even fathom why anyone would need to do a research study on it. I would also venture to bet that these CRNA's would deep down underneath rather a doc do their anesthesia than a nurse.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
It would have been preferable to be the NYT but given their penchant for doctor bashing I can't see it being accepted for publication there.

I actually like it when a non-healthcare professional weighs in; it removes the stench of bias, greed, professional jealousy and fear, etc that physicians are accused of when we write similar articles.


Certainly.

I think if the layperson, on average, understood what these groups are lobbying for (increased scope and respect, to close the gap between themselves and the actual physicians), there'd be a stronger resistance against that sort of lobbying.

While some (no evidence to support this on my part, only from anecdotal recall from previous debates about studies showing no preference) articles show studies that individuals apparently "have no preference" about whether they are treated by an NP or an MD/DO, their beliefs go out the window when it's actually their loved one in dire need of attention. They will always want the physician. Why? Because unless you were born yesterday, you'd know damn well there's a reason that if NP training were just as rigorous as MD/DO training (in the same fields, aspects, and concentrations), they would simply be MD/DO, not NPs.

I'd even bet money that the same people lobbying for these increased scopes of practice would prefer a physician.

They know what's up.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 5 users
As much as I disagree with increased scope of practice for nps, this is an article from the new york post which is not exactly known for journalistic excellence. Also, the writer is not even a physician. I don't like it when people from outside healthcare weigh in on our battles.
It's regular people that vote for the legislatures that ultimately make healthcare laws. They're going to be involved in our battles one way or another, whether we like it or not. It's probably better to try to influence the outside debate rather than to heap scorn upon it.
 
I thought a good way to make the designations clearer was to refer to MD/DO as physician. That is, until I saw an NP refer to herself as a "nurse physician." There's no winning for losing.

...wow.
chiropractors and podiatrists call themselves physicians as well. PAs moved from physician's assistant to physician assistant and now physician associate. What are we going to call ourselves with all these wannabes using our words?
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
It would have been preferable to be the NYT but given their penchant for doctor bashing I can't see it being accepted for publication there.

I actually like it when a non-healthcare professional weighs in; it removes the stench of bias, greed, professional jealousy and fear, etc that physicians are accused of when we write similar articles.
Honestly, having this posted in the editorial of NY Post loses it a lot of credibility..
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Members don't see this ad :)
...wow.
chiropractors and podiatrists call themselves physicians as well. PAs moved from physician's assistant to physician assistant and now physician associate. What are we going to call ourselves with all these wannabes using our words?

"We're like ARNPs, but actually trained."
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Honestly, having this posted in the editorial of NY Post loses it a lot of credibility..

Well, it's an editorial.

It will still be read, and in the end, we want people to understand what is going on, or, at the least, to understand that this is happening.

Sure, we don't want false information. But are we really upset to see people trying to say, "Yeah...don't listen to claims that their training is similar to that of a physician. Understand that they're wanting their own practices, without any physician involvement"? It's opinionated, sure, but everything we want pushed is opinionated. If we are so lucky to understand science or do our own lobbying, we can get the help of respected studies and data. But our own health is certainly something to have an opinion about, and having an editorial is nothing to bash.

The law being passed is a reality. The overconfidence and lobbying from nursing organization is a reality. Demands for increased scopes of practice, in addition to being called something more remotely close in respect/professionalism to "physician" was not a story made up by an angry physician.

NY times/post or not. It's dangerous to dismiss simply because of the source. That's the problem with the "boy who cried wolf": Yes, he was an immature, lying d*** for the first number of times. But eventually, the real wolf still came, did it not?
 
Last edited:
"We're like ARNPs, but actually trained."

It's not even true though. I've seen what it takes to get through a dnp and it's pretty pathetic. Anyone with a credit card can claim that degree

Also just found out that is illegal in my state for a nurse to misrepresent themselves as a physician
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 4 users
It's not even true though. I've seen what it takes to get through a dnp and it's pretty pathetic. Anyone with a credit card can claim that degree

Also just found out that is illegal in my state for a nurse to misrepresent themselves as a physician

Jesus, I would hope that's the case in every state!
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 3 users
Also just found out that is illegal in my state for a nurse to misrepresent themselves as a physician
They tried to pass one of those in my state, but the nursing lobby said no.
 
Wait what
This is happening in my state?! Ugh.
Also I like how the guy in the article basically said second year med students = nurses
 
I thought a good way to make the designations clearer was to refer to MD/DO as physician. That is, until I saw an NP refer to herself as a "nurse physician." There's no winning for losing.
Seriously?????
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Seriously?????

Seriously. I read so much of this that I forget where I saw it or I would provide a link.

As much as I think it's wrong for NPs to present themselves as doctors, I equally believe it's wrong for docs to refer to unlicensed office staff as "nurses." In many states, "nurse" is a protected title. You can't find one wrong without finding the other equally wrong. A medical assistant may be a useful member of the office staff, but s/he isn't a nurse.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 11 users
Seriously. I read so much of this that I forget where I saw it or I would provide a link.

As much as I think it's wrong for NPs to present themselves as doctors, I equally believe it's wrong for docs to refer to unlicensed office staff as "nurses." In many states, "nurse" is a protected title. You can't find one wrong without finding the other equally wrong. A medical assistant may be a useful member of the office staff, but s/he isn't a nurse.

I agree. I think people should be referred to by their correct titles, but we should also carefully craft titles, as to not 'trick' the layperson/patient into thinking the provider is actually more trained than they really are.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 3 users
Seriously. I read so much of this that I forget where I saw it or I would provide a link.

As much as I think it's wrong for NPs to present themselves as doctors, I equally believe it's wrong for docs to refer to unlicensed office staff as "nurses." In many states, "nurse" is a protected title. You can't find one wrong without finding the other equally wrong. A medical assistant may be a useful member of the office staff, but s/he isn't a nurse.
That surprises me that physicians would do that.

I always correct my patients when they refer to my MAs as "nurse". For one, I don't want them expecting a level of clinical knowledge and skills that the MA doesn't have and secondly, I don't want them wondering why my "nurse" doesn't know much.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 14 users
I'm glad you do that. It's pretty common, according to the office nurses I talk to.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
...wow.
chiropractors and podiatrists call themselves physicians as well. PAs moved from physician's assistant to physician assistant and now physician associate. What are we going to call ourselves with all these wannabes using our words?
Physician assistants overwhelmingly have voted time and time again to not change their title to physician associate. They generally know their place in the system, and the vast majority prefer to work with a supervising physician available.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 10 users
I actually like it when a non-healthcare professional weighs in; it removes the stench of bias, greed, professional jealousy and fear, etc that physicians are accused of when we write similar articles.

Betsy McCaughey has plenty of stench.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users
I'm an NP who thinks this is ridiculous. Independent practice is a terrible idea. Yes, send me the simple cases -- the UTIs, ankle sprains, PAP smears, lacerations, etc. I'll take those and leave the complex patients to my physician colleagues.

Shh... don't tell my fellow NPs I feel this way.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 24 users
I'm an NP who thinks this is ridiculous. Independent practice is a terrible idea. Yes, send me the simple cases -- the UTIs, ankle sprains, PAP smears, lacerations, etc. I'll take those and leave the complex patients to my physician colleagues.

Shh... don't tell my fellow NPs I feel this way.

I like you
 
  • Like
Reactions: 15 users
I'm an NP who thinks this is ridiculous. Independent practice is a terrible idea. Yes, send me the simple cases -- the UTIs, ankle sprains, PAP smears, lacerations, etc. I'll take those and leave the complex patients to my physician colleagues.

Shh... don't tell my fellow NPs I feel this way.

That's not right either. Why should nps get all the easy cases and leave physicians to deal with complex cases all the time? It's hard enough to be a doc seeing 40 patients a day without someone taking all the low lying fruit.

This is an issue at a hospital I was at where the midwives want to have all the easy patients and turf all the difficult ones to the obgyns. Also if they run into problems they wanted to send those cases to the doctors as well. So they absolve themselves of responsibility if something goes wrong. That ain't right
 
  • Like
Reactions: 4 users
That's not right either. Why should nps get all the easy cases and leave physicians to deal with complex cases all the time? It's hard enough to be a doc seeing 40 patients a day without someone taking all the low lying fruit.

This is an issue at a hospital I was at where the midwives want to have all the easy patients and turf all the difficult ones to the obgyns. Also if they run into problems they wanted to send those cases to the doctors as well. So they absolve themselves of responsibility if something goes wrong. That ain't right
The point of mid levels is to competently handle mid level problems under loose supervision. They handle the UTIs so you can focus on higher acuity patients.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 7 users
Physician assistants overwhelmingly have voted time and time again to not change their title to physician associate. They generally know their place in the system, and the vast majority prefer to work with a supervising physician available.
I wonder if that is because PA's are trained different (read better) than NP's. I feel like once you reach a certain threshold of knowledge and realize how complex something simple can turn out to be, you say to yourself wow I can find myself in over my head quickly with out more qualified supervision.

Additionally, the fact that PA's are supervised from the get go, and they start out as an assistant they feel much more comfortable and content with their role. Versus NP they start out as nurses first who worked "independently" doing their nursing duties and little by little felt discontent with their position. But by the time they become NP's they have already become biased to believe they should continue to work "independently" and that they know it all.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users
The point of mid levels is to competently handle mid level problems under loose supervision. They handle the UTIs so you can focus on higher acuity patients.
#midlevellifeproblems #midlevellifecrisis
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
That's not right either. Why should nps get all the easy cases and leave physicians to deal with complex cases all the time? It's hard enough to be a doc seeing 40 patients a day without someone taking all the low lying fruit.

This is an issue at a hospital I was at where the midwives want to have all the easy patients and turf all the difficult ones to the obgyns. Also if they run into problems they wanted to send those cases to the doctors as well. So they absolve themselves of responsibility if something goes wrong. That ain't right

Because that's why you went to medical school and spent nearly a decade training?
 
  • Like
Reactions: 5 users
Because that's why you went to medical school and spent nearly a decade training?

From a practical standpoint, eliminating a lot of the more simple cases in a typical clinic day and resulting in nothing but highly complex or acute patients can lead to quicker burnout.

Some days you need those quick easy hits to keep your sanity. Other days you just need them to stay on time. The two are often tightly intertwined.

If this type of reality does not suit your vision of medical practice, you would do well to stay in academics where you may be protected and have longer appointments for complex patients.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 6 users
From a practical standpoint, eliminating a lot of the more simple cases in a typical clinic day and resulting in nothing but highly complex or acute patients can lead to quicker burnout.

Some days you need those quick easy hits to keep your sanity. Other days you just need them to stay on time. The two are often tightly intertwined.

If this type of reality does not suit your vision of medical practice, you would do well to stay in academics where you may be protected and have longer appointments for complex patients.

I don't work in the clinic but I'd go crazy if I saw URIs all day long in the ED. I guess the variety is nice but given the choice i'd choose high acuity over low acuity any day.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
I think ED is a lot different. People that go into EM do it because they love high acuity patients. People that go into primary care, not so much. A clinic full of complex patients with no "easy" patients in between would be a complete nightmare because primary care docs only get 15 minutes per patient.

Besides high acuity DOES NOT equal complex.
 
I don't work in the clinic but I'd go crazy if I saw URIs all day long in the ED. I guess the variety is nice but given the choice i'd choose high acuity over low acuity any day.

As soon as the novelty of being a doctor wears off (and/or once you're out practicing after residency and you still have hospital admins breathing down your neck with patient quotas to meet), you may begin to appreciate the occasional runny nose or viral gastroenteritis. There's a reason ED docs are always at the forefront of the "burnout" discussion.

No one is saying they prefer all easy/routine cases (well, no one who isnt that NP poster), but most people will need those softballs to catch up or to keep things otherwise sane.

I feel terrible for PCPs. They have so little time to deal with an insurmountable quantity of mostly bull****. And they're required to handle it all while the EMRs become more bloated and slowed down by extra clicks, extra forms, and extra headaches in addition to all the other mindnumbing "meaningful use" criteria.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 6 users
As soon as the novelty of being a doctor wears off (and/or once you're out practicing after residency and you still have hospital admins breathing down your neck with patient quotas to meet), you may begin to appreciate the occasional runny nose or viral gastroenteritis. There's a reason ED docs are always at the forefront of the "burnout" discussion.

No one is saying they prefer all easy/routine cases (well, no one who isnt that NP poster), but most people will need those softballs to catch up or to keep things otherwise sane.

I feel terrible for PCPs. They have so little time to deal with an insurmountable quantity of mostly bull****. And they're required to handle it all while the EMRs become more bloated and slowed down by extra clicks, extra forms, and extra headaches in addition to all the other mindnumbing "meaningful use" criteria.

Yeah PCPs that I know have such a miserable existence and it is only becoming more and more miserable as obamacare takes effect. Not because being a PCP is miserable but because of all the administrative/paperwork garbage that they deal with.
 
Because that's why you went to medical school and spent nearly a decade training?

I've noticed that residents seem to enjoy having bedchecks among the very sick people they treat in the hospital. Or maybe you would like your census to be filled with trainwrecks all the time?
 
loving what's trending on the NY Post.
 

Attachments

  • trending.jpg
    trending.jpg
    61.8 KB · Views: 246
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users
I wonder how deluded you have to be to think that you can get equivalent outcomes from a CRNA and a residency trained anesthesiologist? The depth of knowledge and training rigor are on totally different levels. It is such common sense to me that I can't even fathom why anyone would need to do a research study on it. I would also venture to bet that these CRNA's would deep down underneath rather a doc do their anesthesia than a nurse.
Step outside your bubble please.
 
I've noticed that residents seem to enjoy having bedchecks among the very sick people they treat in the hospital. Or maybe you would like your census to be filled with trainwrecks all the time?

The trainwrecks at least are sick and need interventions. I'd rather spend 20 minutes putting a line in a septic shock pt than trying to explain to some uri pt why they don't need antibiotics.

You can generate more RVUs from seeing a handful of level 5s than a ton of URI patients.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
I think that the setting needs to be clarified. Inpatient, I love sick patients. You learn a ton, they're fun, you do things to them and see if it works, you have time to learn about them, etc. Outpatient, I absolutely HATE complex patients. There's just not enough time in the outpatient setting.
 
The trainwrecks at least are sick and need interventions. I'd rather spend 20 minutes putting a line in a septic shock pt than trying to explain to some uri pt why they don't need antibiotics.

You can generate more RVUs from seeing a handful of level 5s than a ton of URI patients.

You also deal with a lot more risk and probability of litigation. What about cases like the johns hopkins 55 million dollar verdict where the hospital was held liable for a bad outcome to a newborn? It was the parents decision to have a nurse midwife assist the delivery but they decided to just show up at the hospital when it was too late and blamed the doctors there. The role of the midwife was barely even brought up
 
That's not right either. Why should nps get all the easy cases and leave physicians to deal with complex cases all the time? It's hard enough to be a doc seeing 40 patients a day without someone taking all the low lying fruit.

Because in theory, most patients are straightforward. I'd rather you save your time for the fewer complex patients who need it. It's obviously more draining to deal with (likely non-compliant) patients with a number of comorbidities and an endless list of minor complaints, but that's where you medical expertise is really needed. I actually think that in a perfect world, NPs/PAs should be seeing more patients than MDs/DOs -- we see the quick easy ones, leave you guys with more time to manage the complex patients. (This is kind of how my practice works right now.) And with fewer patients on a doctor's schedule, there's also availability for consults if needed. It's about using everyone's skills to the maximum ability and making the system more efficient.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
I wonder how deluded you have to be to think that you can get equivalent outcomes from a CRNA and a residency trained anesthesiologist? The depth of knowledge and training rigor are on totally different levels. It is such common sense to me that I can't even fathom why anyone would need to do a research study on it. I would also venture to bet that these CRNA's would deep down underneath rather a doc do their anesthesia than a nurse.

Way back when I was in Paramedic School, I had to do 40 hours in the OR to practice Intubations. I never once saw the anesthesiologist. The entirety of the anesthesia were done by CRNA's. If they didn't have confidence in their colleagues to perform on them if they needed it, it didn't show. It may be the same situation as a commenter mentioned above concerning NP's -great for the routine (if there is such a thing), non-complicated procedures. Let the residency trained docs handle the rest

Wow, just wow. I think I lost a couple of IQ points...

Crooked Line hit the nail on the head. Let the NP/PA's handle the low acuity, relatively routine patients: The URI's, med refills, strains/sprains, etc.

The biggest issue for me is competency. Don't take a freshly minted RN with little to no experience into an NP program, graduate them and boot them out to practice independently. They may have the book smarts, but not the street smarts. (Similar problem in EMS with "zero to hero" Paramedic programs). And for the love of all that is holy don't stick them in an isolated, rural ED with no support. Only 1 night out of 3 has an MD, the other 2 have NP's. I'd spend the majority of a 24 hour shift running up and down the road with every lump, bump, laceration and headache 75 miles to the major academic medical center.

Having said that, a good, competent, experienced nurse that becomes an NP- worth their weight in gold. I've worked with a couple that I'd put up against a doc any day.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top