Where do you go to find "reachable" surgery programs?

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icare4u

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Is there a site to go to find surgery programs that aren't so competitive? I'd like to stay in Texas, but ultimately, I'll go anywhere...

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Is there a site to go to find surgery programs that aren't so competitive? I'd like to stay in Texas, but ultimately, I'll go anywhere...

Not really.

http://www.facs.org/residencysearch/search/search.html

Has a list of GS residencies where program self-report what percentage of their residents are AOA, etc. I doubt that that data is very accurate and don't know how often it's updated. But it would be a start.

You might be able to reverse engineer a list by getting the entire list from FREIDA (http://www.ama-assn.org/vapp/freida/srch/) and then searching the ample "Top 10 Program" posts here and crossing off any program that is mentioned.

The other thing you might do is search old posts for lists of programs that didn't match at any point over the last decade. In some cases (UVa, WashU) that won't be of use, but on the whole I suspect programs which have ever had to scramble will be less competitive.


But ... what I recommend is that you start networking. Personal contacts, phone calls, etc. from one attending to another are the best way to get a job your resume isn't qualified for.
 
I am discouraged by posts that state "I want to go to a program that is less competitive." It means to me that the person already has one foot in the grave. Sure maybe board scores and grades are not as high as you would like, but surgery no matter where you go requires self motivation and very hard work. If you want to be a surgeon change you mind set to I'm going to work hard and get into the best program possible what ever it takes! The glass is half full people!
 
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Okay, Surgdo, here goes, see if you like this better:

Hey!!! I am a 3rd year with a 192 step 1. I am at a Tier 1 school. My 1st and 2nd year grades are b's for the most part with some a's, which pretty much leaves me fighting to stay in the 3rd quartile of my class!!

My clinical evals are stellar, attendings love me -- I work like crazy to make for those numbers of mine. I will have great LOR's.

I'm going to fight like CRAZY to get that step 2 up, but only God has the answer to that, and yes, that is in his hands.

Now, do you think those numbers are REALLY going to get me into a competitive program, or do you just maybe think that I might be smart to have a back-up plan?????

You know what? I've had it up to eyeballs with top tier programs and the cut-throat attitudes. I want to be a surgeon SO BADLY that I'm willing to go ANYWHERE to do it. I don't think it has to be a really competitive program to get a good education. Anywhere in my post did I say ANYTHING about not doing it at all? And so what are you saying, that you have to go to a really competitive school, or you are a loser? Is that REALLY what you are saying?

So sorry to have discouraged you. I just hope you'll manage to get over it.

Now I would surely appreciate it if anyone out there has any helpful input. Thank you.
 
Okay, Surgdo, here goes, see if you like this better:

Hey!!! I am a 3rd year with a 192 step 1. I am at a Tier 1 school. My 1st and 2nd year grades are b's for the most part with some a's, which pretty much leaves me fighting to stay in the 3rd quartile of my class!!

My clinical evals are stellar, attendings love me -- I work like crazy to make for those numbers of mine. I will have great LOR's.

I'm going to fight like CRAZY to get that step 2 up, but only God has the answer to that, and yes, that is in his hands.

Now, do you think those numbers are REALLY going to get me into a competitive program, or do you just maybe think that I might be smart to have a back-up plan?????

You know what? I've had it up to eyeballs with top tier programs and the cut-throat attitudes. I want to be a surgeon SO BADLY that I'm willing to go ANYWHERE to do it. I don't think it has to be a really competitive program to get a good education. Anywhere in my post did I say ANYTHING about not doing it at all? And so what are you saying, that you have to go to a really competitive school, or you are a loser? Is that REALLY what you are saying?

So sorry to have discouraged you. I just hope you'll manage to get over it.

Now I would surely appreciate it if anyone out there has any helpful input. Thank you.

First, calm down. Second, don't mind surgdo, he is constipated. Third, you should apply to as many programs as you can. I would even say to every program. May sound extreme, but, even though you stunk up Step 1, you still wont know who wants to talk to you until you apply. When you have applied, programs will make the decision to interview you or not. Those that do, may or may not be top tier programs. But your goal should be to get as many interviews as you can, and then if you get 40 (for example), you can cancel the ones where you know you would not want to go. So, dont approach this with the wrong attitude. As our constipated friend stated, go for the best and then settle for the worst. Good luck.
 
Well, I'm thinking I need to do an away at a program that is a relatively "safe" program, if such exists, so that I can try to impress them. My numbers are not going to do it, so I just have to work a lot harder than everyone else. I know I can do it. I tend to excel in the clinical setting, and I can out-work anybody. That is why I'm looking for those programs now, so that I can apply for a rotation early in my 4th year.
Any ideas?
I have every intention to apply to just about all programs, but I'm more concerned about my away right now...
I'm doing one here in Texas that is a very competitive program that I would LOVE to get in to...but I'm trying not to get my hopes up. At the end of the day, I just want to match!
 
There are plenty of schools that are not well known top tier programs that want excellent clinical candidates. You have to be more regionally specific as well as give us other factors to tell you what you want to know. Ie, regionally California has plenty of schools that are not top tier, but because its the most highly desireable region in the US, even the less than stellar programs are pretty cutthroat to get into. On the other hand there are plenty of programs in the Southeast that should be "easy" to get into in comparison. You honestly should talk to a faculty member at your school in the surgery department that you trust and you know will give you honest feedback.
I picked my schools to apply to based on the broad approach that goooober described, from there I regionally picked programs that I "heard" were good from my trustworthy attendings.
 
Well, talked to my P.D., and she is so, so nice, but really didn't have a lot of input other than "get your step 2 up" ...the obvious things. Suggested that she thought the grades were fine, clinical evaluations were great, but that the step 1 was -- how did she put it, "worrisome." Then suggested I might try FP or IM for a back-up.
I'm talking to some of the interns that I come into contact with, but gosh, it's pretty embarrassing to admit to that 192. I'm REALLY not used to that.

Oh, I'm in Texas, would love to stay here, but when it comes right down to it, I'll go anywhere.
 
Well, talked to my P.D., and she is so, so nice, but really didn't have a lot of input other than "get your step 2 up" ...the obvious things. Suggested that she thought the grades were fine, clinical evaluations were great, but that the step 1 was -- how did she put it, "worrisome." Then suggested I might try FP or IM for a back-up.
I'm talking to some of the interns that I come into contact with, but gosh, it's pretty embarrassing to admit to that 192. I'm REALLY not used to that.

Oh, I'm in Texas, would love to stay here, but when it comes right down to it, I'll go anywhere.

This is a bit like surgery internship in a microcosm. You have a goal. You must accomplish it. Failure is not an option.

In this case, you need to get a surgical internship. Surgical interns are frequently faced with getting somebody a CT scan or some other task. You have to be a hammerhead here - be persistent, don't take no for an answer, seek out alternative solutions and if one thing doesn't work, try something else.

Sounds like the PD is not going to be very helpful. You say that people love you on the wards. Time to cash in those chips. Make an appointment with every attending who knows and likes you. Go to their office and explain your story - that you're a great guy whose scores are bad. Ask them point blank if they are willing to help you. Say, "Dr. X, do you have friends at other residencies who you will call and recommend me strongly?" Ideally, they will immediately say yes. If their reply is not immediate and positive, look for someone else.

I don't think applying to every program will really help. Lots of people do that. You need to make programs see you as a person and not an application.

Though I normally think away rotations are a really, really bad idea, I think your situation is one of the exceptions. If you can, find programs that don't have 3rd year medical students. They're generally not in really competitive places and they're only experience with med students is people who are brand new and dont' know the system - you won't be competing with "native" med students who already know the hospital. But if that's not possible, do the away rotations anyway. Doing 2 or even 3 might not be a bad idea.
 
And I don't think that setting realistic expectations is looking at the glass half-empty.

Trying to do your best is great, tilting at windmills is not. You're not going to MGH no matter what - and focusing your energy on acheivable goals is smart.

Another thing to have in the back of your head is your Plan B. They could include

1) apply to two specialites and if you don't get GS the first time, don't pursue it further.
2) plan to do a prelim and reapply
3) my favorite, perform 1-2 years of research with a prominent surgeon who can get you a residency. I've seen this happen several times. Search my old posts for details.

You don't have to think about this in detail now, but it needs to be gestating. If you are going to do #1, that will obviously need to start soon. If the decision is between 2 and 3, you can push that off for several months.
 
I disagree with Pilot doc on several points. First of all, thinking positively is not thinking unrealistically. Related to this, you can still make yourself look good. But it will involve taking a risk, not going to a safe place. If I were you, I would go to a couple of very prestigious programs and do a couple of SubIs. Work very very hard and simply, don't fail to impress. Get to know an attending and then ask them for a letter. If you do really well and they get to know you (stick with a student-oriented one in the OR for almost every case), they may even be willing to call on your behalf. This will really help your application. Also, you should not ever be afraid to do a SubI at the program that is your first choice. You just have to be very hard working and keep your mouth shut. A lot of times, senior residents have a big say in who gets into a program. So if you get to know both attendings and senior residents on your service, they can support you which will get you in. I still say you should apply very broadly. You simply cant risk what pilot doc is telling you, which is apply to fewer programs. You have to look at the process like this: You have only one chance to get interviews, meaning, you want your application in on the first day it can be turned in and you do not want to have to add more programs later in the application process when you have not received enough interviews. The rule of "first come, first serve" applies very much to the vast majority of residency programs. So, do it right the first time. Beef up the remainder of your resume (SubIs at prestigous programs and at your top choices), get great letters (since you are a clinical wiz), and apply to every program early. Once you have your interviews, then you can do what pilot tells you and that is interview at 10 to 15 of your best choices. Good luck.
 
Maybe I was unclear with my post. Goober seems to be disagreeing with points I wasn't trying to make.

My statement about thinking positively was in response to surgdo. I think the obsession with getting into the best program possible makes many people position the best as the enemy the good. You only have to look at the large number of US seniors who go unmatched while non-US seniors take 20% of surgery slots to see that people aren't being smart about their applications. And as the OP noted, going to an average (or even below average) program and ending up as a merely competent general surgeon is an accomplishment to be proud of. Surgery as a profession has high standards and there is no shame in merely meeting the requirements.

As for applying to every program, I still think that's a waste of time and effort. There are 240-some programs in the match - that will cost you thousands of dollars to apply to them all. I'm not saying to apply to 10, but there are smarter ways to use that money - like another away rotation, or lots of second looks for the purpose of promoting yourself. Succeeding in medicine requires working hard AND smart. Failing to narrow your application list to dozens rather than hundreds is not smart.

As a small point, I don't think prestigous AI's are the way to go. You say you already have great letters from a top tier medical school. Is there anyone nationally prominent who will go to bat for you already? If not, perhaps one big-name AI would help, but I would personally use them all as 1-month interview at programs for which you are competitive.

As for having all your material in on the first day possible, goober is right on. You need to make sure that you do all the easy stuff right, the first time, every time.
 
Thanks so much for the great responses.

I am doing a surgical away at my first choice, Baylor, which is my "reach" program. It is competitive, really competitive, b/c it is really a good program, really a personal program. I've not actually done a surgery rotation at Baylor, I did a month of my IM rotation and loved it. So I really don't know anyone in the surgery dept there. I intend to do everything thing within my power to impress all the powers-that-be, the interns and residents -- and even the nurses! I've found that they all can be SO MUCH HELP if I'll just learn from them and not act like I already know everything.

I've got my surgery subI set up at the VA, which is not just a reach, it's a real leap! It's associated with UTSW, and it's REALLY competitive.
I'm just wondering if I should change that one to somewhere less competitive that I might have a chance at if I didn't get Baylor...
Just your ideas are helpful.
 
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I've got my surgery subI set up at the VA, which is not just a reach, it's a real leap! It's associated with UTSW, and it's REALLY competitive.
I'm just wondering if I should change that one to somewhere less competitive that I might have a chance at if I didn't get Baylor...
Just your ideas are helpful.

I'd ditch the VA for several reasons
1) 2 "reach" subI's are too many
2) UTSW is the biggest program in the country. Based on no personal knowledge, my suspicion is that generally rely on a more numbers heavy application process than smaller programs. It will certainly be harder to stand out in a large program
3) you do a subI to impress people who can help your application. That generally means prominent attendings. Based on my experience at two other VA's, those people don't spend much time there.

If you do keep the VA rotation, my guess is that you will be on a service run by a chief resident. Once you establish rapport and are doing well, inquire if the chief can intercede with some prominent attending to write you a letter.
 
Hey,
The reason I chose the VA at UTSW for my SubI is b/c I did my surgery rotation there this year (my 3rd year) and the attending,the chief resident and the intern LOVED me. Well, I'm going to have to say it was mutual. They were such nice people, and the overall atmosphere was great. I dreaded it, never expected to like it, and I didn't...I loved it! They both told me that I was the best 3rd year they had ever seen, tried to encourage me to do surgery, and to be sure and look them up when it came time to apply. That's why I'm looking at the VA for the SubI. I just thought I would be with that attending and shore up that relationship again for a really strong LOR.

The Baylor will be considered an away for me, it's not a SubI.
So do you think I should ditch the VA and go for a weaker program for a SubI, since I've got BAylor as an away?
 
if the VA is your home program, and baylor is an away, you might be able to fit a third rotation in at more reasonable program if youre schedule is right. What months are these two rotations scheduled? I would hope that you have the VA home rotation first, then the baylor subi next. If your 4th year starts very early, then you could probably fit in a 3rd subI before the interview season begins. I cant remember now, but I think my first interview was mid september, so if you start mid june, you might be able to squeeze in 3, but the 3rd one it would probably be too late to get a letter of rec from those peeps. And you also have to have time to take step 2 before all this shiz cause otherwise you wont have that to help you come application time. And remember, the first day that applications can go up on ERAS is the day that your application should be in, but at the same time, take the time to make sure there are no mistakes, write a decent personal statement, make it interesting.
 
I don't start until Aug. I won't finish my 3rd year till end of this week, I'm taking July to take step 2, work on personal statement, applications, personal statement, that sort of thing. May not have been smart to do that, but I've GOT TO CONCENTRATE ON STEP 2! Then UTSW VA SubI in Aug, then Baylor away in Sept.
It may be a mistake taking July off to work on these, but IM has consumed all my time, with all the write-ups...paid off though, got 5's on all my attending evals! Just never enough time, though...and I've really got a lot riding on Step 2.

Gosh, I really thought heavy interview season was Nov, Dec and Jan??? If it's in Sept, I'm going to be pushing it --
 
Gosh, I really thought heavy interview season was Nov, Dec and Jan??? If it's in Sept, I'm going to be pushing it --

It is...although some programs will start interviewing earlier, most do not until Nov, Dec and Jan. A few even have interviews during the first week of February!

Since the VA was such a wonderful experience for you, it might not be a bad idea to keep that rotation if those attendings can and will support you during your application there but otherwise I agree with the others, that you might consider a less "reach" rotation as well. As Pilot Doc notes, the VA attendings are not usually the most powerful ones in the program, and generally not the most respected ones as well...this may not make a difference, but at a competitive program like UTSW, if you are relying on your clinical skills and personality to get you an interview and ranking, you want the power guys to support you (and they are not generally at VA hospitals).
 
Sorry - didn't understand that the UTSW VA was a home rotation for you. When you say that's your "SubI" do you mean it fulfills some specific 4th year requirement for your med school? If that's the case, then it seems a reasonable choice. I would only change if you have the option to do it at another program where you have a more realistic chance of matching. I wouldn't pursue this as a chance to match at UTSW - Baylor is your shot at a reach program.
 
ughhh. That would be my luck. Well, he might not be a "big name," but he ought to be. He is a bariatric surgeon who spends what little spare time he does have on his research program in bariatrics. He eats, drinks and lives bariatrics. And such a caring, considerate, good man. I was planning on working with him in his bariatric research program.
I just hate this game we have to play.

Guess I should start looking for another SubI.
 
So, do you all think I should stay at UTSW and just do a different subI there with another surgeon, or try to get into another away at a "safe" program during these early months? I am not trying to get into UTSW, I just thought that I would need the LOR and that it might look good coming from here. I could try and re-work my schedule and apply to another program away, but it may well be too late. What are your thoughts?

And yes, a subI is a requirement I have to have for my 4th year. It didn't have to be in surgery, though.
 
I"m assuming you have other letters from surgeons in your home program, so I'm not sure what extra the letter from the VA surgeon would provide.

I agree with Pilot Doc that since UTSW already knows you, your away rotations/Sub-Is should be reserved for programs at which you probably have a better shot. Obviously you can't rotate at a ton of places, but since your ace in the hole is your clinical and "people" skills, you need to highlight that at places that only know you as "Dr. 192" (ie, from your academic record).
 
Probably right. I guess I was just really looking forward to going back there. I would bet at this point it will be hard to find an opening at an away program for August....
 
Probably right. I guess I was just really looking forward to going back there. I would bet at this point it will be hard to find an opening at an away program for August....

Probably hard, likely not impossible. Look for community programs in places that people aren't dying to live. There's a really good one in Iowa - Des Moines, I think. A previously prolific poster, womansurg, trained there. Read her old posts.

Another thing to keep in mind is that the VA is still a solid option. You haven't thrown away your only chance to be a surgeon by scheduling a SubI there. If it doesn't work out to go elsewhere, then go to the VA and do your best. Dr. Bariatric will likely go to bat for you and probably has buddies on the staff with connections as well.
 
Anyone know anything about Dallas Methodist? Would it be considered a "safe" program? (I'm talking about applying to Methodist instead of UTSW VA for a 4th year subI to try to make a good impression, convince them that they need to keep me!)
 
Anyone ever use the Residents.com site? You have to pay, I don't like that, but it gives all the programs and their cut-off minimum scores, deadlines, program size, etc. Wonder if it's accurate?

Seems to cater to FMG's and IMG's an awful lot, though...Although, those people are a lot more persistent about applying everywhere than U.S. MD's, as we can see from the match results. :rolleyes:
 
Residents.com has been discussed elsewhere here on the site (can't recall which forum). As you note, it caters to FMG and IMGs. The information you are paying for, is information you can get yourself, for free with a little leg-work. You have no guarantee from them that the information is accurate. IMHO, your ability to get a training spot is not predicated on what the USMLE cut-offs are, but rather in your clinical skills and faculty connections. I think it fairly obvious that most of the big name places with lots of applications are going to tend to use cut-offs which you probably won't meet and that your application will fair better at less competitive places and places where your faculty have friends and colleagues.

That said, if the cost of Residents.com is not prohibitive (I think its $75), it wouldn't hurt to get the information, although as I said above, you can call or email programs yourself and get the same info for free.
 
Hey everyone, I'm new here. I am going to be applying for gen surg this year (no groans please!). I was hoping for a little advice:

My stats:
I got a 213 on step 1 (hopefully will make up for it with step 2 this august)
Low middle to lower 1/3rd of class- even though I've never gotten below a B
Limited research experience (1 summer between 1st and 2nd year)
Good clinical reviews/evals

At this point, what can I do to buff up my app? I don't think I am a very competitive applicant at this point. Besides getting involved with another research project, doing well on step 2, and trying for some good letters from surgeons... is there anything else I can do. Also, my Step 2 is scheduled for the 3rd wk in August, do you think that gives me enough time to get it onto my application still relatively early. I don't think my letters will be coming till around then anyway. Thanks for any advice.
 
The best advice I could give you two who are looking at getting into surgery is go to your adivsor(s). No one really knows you on this site. Our advice is pretty general here.

Your advisor will be able to tailor your approach. Your advisor may be able to call a program director. Your chairperson may be able to call. If you don't ask, you don't know.

The one thing I would tell you, don't apply for prelim spots. The reason I did not do this is because if it came down to it, then I could scramble into a prelim spot. I did not want to be placed into a prelim spot. It's possible that you could scramble into a catagorical.... you never know.

Good luck!
 
The one thing I would tell you, don't apply for prelim spots. The reason I did not do this is because if it came down to it, then I could scramble into a prelim spot. I did not want to be placed into a prelim spot. It's possible that you could scramble into a catagorical.... you never know.

Good luck!

Tell us more about this strategy, particular about scrambling into a categorical spot.
 
Well, sure, it would have been difficult to scramble into a catagorical spot this past year, but it isn't IMPOSSIBLE. I mean, it might not be as competitive next year... you never know.

What I am trying to say:
If you match into a priliminary spot b/c you ranked it, you will NOT be able to scramble into a catgorical one (should there be one open). It's much much easier to scramble into a preliminary spot.

I know for a fact that my home program 'saved' a couple of prelim spots 'in case any of our people needed them'.

Just food for thought.
 
If I recall correctly, over the last 3 years there were 2, 1 and 4 spots that didn't fill in the match. To suggest that anyone, especially someone with a marginal application on paper, has a reasonable chance of getting one of those spots is not helpful. I agree it is not impossible. But lots of things are not impossible. You should plan your life around probabilities, not possbilities.

The original poster might not match into a categorical spot and should have a plan B. That might be taking a prelim spot. In that case, ranking prelim spots could have major advantages
1) the ability to rank prelim spots at programs that have a track record of hiring categorical residents from the prelim ranks
2) the ability to choose a prelim spot in an area that is near multiple surgery programs as opposed
3) the ability to choose a location that is attractive/affordable/near family, etc.
4) the ability to avoid the scramble which is a crazy process that affords no time to weigh multiple options nor present the nuances of your application

I happen to think that a prelim spot is a bad deal regardless, but if the OP wants a prelim spot, ranking them at the end of his list is an excellent option.
 
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