Where your medical tuition money goes

[Donkeykiss]

Given this is notorious UMDNJ, but other schools public will see similar and also get BS about state aid cut

http://www.umdnj.edu/cntrlweb/grants/FederalA133.pdf

2010
Academic
Revenue
tuition revenue up 12.7%, 14.4% in 09
97 million in 2010, 85.9 mill 09, 75.1 mill 08
enrollment up 5.7% in 2010, 5% in 09

state gave $245 mill to SCHOOLS in 2010 (98 mill is fringe), 237 in 09 (69 mill fringe)
state gave total of 455 mill (193 mill fringe)

-The state decreased by $56.4 mill in 2011 to $170, only 14.9 mill related to educational units. So they gave 18% increase in med/dental tuition, 15% overall, expect tuition revenue to increase by anticipated, by them, 16 mill this year (more than was even cut)

2010
Expenses
-Instruction 183 mill, 202 mill 2009 (133 mill salaries, 143 mill salaries in 09)-this includes resident/fellow instruction as well I think
-academic and student support 31 mill (18 salaries mill, 16 in 09)-this includes resident/fellow instruction as well I think

So 2010 they made about $342 mill in revenue from students, tuition/state, only costs about $214 mill (they only lost $3 mill from student loans, but they get donations/gifts to school too). So extra $128 mill we give for them to do whatever, $97 mill most of us paying interest on loans with. Obviously had plenty of room and didnt need to hike tuition even at all if we weren't paying for other UMDNJ operations, feel free to look up the many indictments/convictions of misuse as well. I am not in a fiscal position to fund research centers, pay medicaid, bailout clinical operation losses.

And this past year only 14.9 mill cut from that $342 from state cut, and even if you throw that whole $56.4 cut its still $302 mill they make with the increased tuition revenue. The expenses will still be pretty much $215 mill. Even as far back as 2004 Instruction expense was still $177 mill. And I think this counts residents and they get GME money for that which increased 50% for next year. Plus I dont know where in there is the money they get from St George

This is rough but represents the give in, get out. They also make other revenue from insurance premiums, service contracts for dining hall etc

Note the state budget has been out since february but they still wait to announce the tuition hike % despite the exact same amount to the school as last


For the NJ "Educational Facility Agency" bond, specifically for dorms, dining halls, classrooms, academic support
These are what it paid off and they got $23 mill in state medicaid forgiven, other $23 deferred till 2013


$260 mill at 7.47% for 30 something years
here are the lower rates they were paying, like refinancing your house cause you think your interest is too low
NJEFA 1995B 5-5.25%
NJEFA 1999 -4.2-5.5%
2002A- 3.6-5.5
2002B -1%
Child Health Institute-2-5%
International public health development-5.7%
University Behavioral Health-4.88%

And if it was a range and variable, it was at the lowest end when they refunded/refinanced

2 are research centers with no umdnj students (maybe a couple non paying post docs), one is a social service clinic that used to be something new brunswick was responsible for its city, 2 are general obligation bonds (money UMDNJ used for whatever)

the 2 original NJEFA I am unclear what paid for, the CAB building in new Brunswick was only maybe only $43 of the $143 mill 1995 bond and that is barely for students I think

It also paid off the overpriced dorm, not sure if some of it had a joint newark obligation

All the same little student related and turned COPs which arent revenue backed into bonds that are and uses state restricted money as collateral and our revenue to pay back

back to 2004

http://www.umdnj.edu/cntrlweb/Audited_Fin_Statements/index.htm

tuition revenue- $97 mill in 2010, $85 -09, $75-08, $69-07, 62-06, 56-05, $50-04,
instruction expense- $183 in 2010, $202-09, 192-08, 188-07, 195-06, 198-05, 177-04
interest expense($215 mill more in njefa bonds to come, unsure if all $260 mill sold)-$40 in 2010, $39 in 09, $39-2008, 32-2007, 25-2006, $21-2005, $22-2004

Corzine signed off on this widening of scope of the bond purpose too.

$5 mill fees for the $260 mill to NJEFA, morgan stanley and Gibbons legal counsel

To note, corzine's chief counsel at the time bill castner goes to become a director at gibbons in 2010 after leaving and appointed to the state committee of investigations-the state agency that warned about njefa to corzine in 2007, "Waste and Abuse" was the title, and the group responsible for overseeing such activities, appointed by camden assemblyman

Also would like to know who owns this great paying bond. Wonder if Corzine made a few more bucks or friends of his? He heads mf global now who is upping their municipal bond investment and also partner at JC Flowers. I'm sure theyd be interested in a 7.47% return or if thats too close to corruption maybe they get the other $215 mill approved which will get a rate set by the 2009 bond bar or even higher because the school is more extended

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[CatFactorial]

Meh.

 

[AlexMorph]

It's ok, guys. They just want to bleed us dry and saddle us with a ridiculous amount of loans so that we can keep paying them off till our 40s.

 

[engineeredout]

My school doesn't pay rotation sites to take us, so I'd sure like to know where 3rd and 4th year tuition actually goes...

 

[thepoopologist]

My school doesn't pay rotation sites to take us, so I'd sure like to know where 3rd and 4th year tuition actually goes...

The Dean's butt, so he can poop money.

 

[dr zaius]

The Dean's butt, so he can poop money.

Awesome post/username combo.

 

[Radonkulous]

Ponzi scheme anyone?

 

[Doctor4Life1769]

The Dean's butt, so he can poop money.

 

[Doctor4Life1769]

Ponzi scheme anyone?

Quickest way to make a mean buck, for sure.

 

[Day man]

exactly why i'm leaving this state, want no part of the medical environment here. i'm just glad i'm done with new brunswick forever...but i won't even get started there.

 

[Donkeykiss]

been looking at this crap 3 days and gonna fail out but I think I got the real numbers. If anyone has some finance background chime in.


http://www.umdnj.edu/cntrlweb/Audited_Fin_Statements/

page 29 section 3

I'm pretty sure this means that umdnj's $4995 "scholarship" is just the difference between what the university estimates the charge is later on an accrual basis and then the difference between that and what other revenue its has already collected from students/loans/MdPhD grants/state funds that are restricted for students anyway

Thats $28 million out of $245 million just for schools that year, 5690 full time equivalent students. They got alot more for other hospital expenses and GME. They used whole thing thats 44k a kid university wide, and states budget for the higher innate expense of medical education, which is like 50k instructional, maybe. Selling rotation spots, and all the other money a school makes more than makes up for it

Accrual basis I think just means they estimate after they have all their money, its how all colleges do it. And from this money, which includes state restricted money they have to give to students, they give a "scholarship"

You can see that all other sectors of UMDNJ operate net operating losses, especially in this statement as educational bonds paid off ridiculous research centers that should have never been built, mental health clinics, other general bonds.

Its legit cause in most states/all the vast majority of funds to a university is unrestricted, even though in their state budget it makes them look good for going to higher education rather than more for research/healthcare. So its really up to the university how much they spend subsidizing their students tuition. But I honestly think it isnt at all anymore at UMDNJ. The instructional cost of medical education has just stayed with inflation as all schools

And "net withdrawals" means this is only after it uses all available money to balance off debts, which will now be these njefa binds


http://www.umdnj.edu/cntrlweb/Audited_Fin_Statements/

see the older ones and how the cost of instruction is constant, because professors arent getting this money. At the same time they increased enrollment by more than 1k.

And you see its because research is a losing/maybe a wash area of umdnj and the hospitals have lost like $230 mill in revenue in past 6 years. Basically us paying for healthcare when its the entire tax base's responsibility. And funding research cause NIH budgets are tighter than a nun so schools cant steal there. This is happening everywhere, especially public because the state has own budget issues.

I havent heard one intuitive explanation for this ridiculous rise all over and the school blames it all on the state budget cuts when that was never the problem in the first place.

They are seriously enslaving alot of kids when the actual cost of college isnt much. You cant escape federal loans. And the schools require unsustainable cash assets to service the bonds

just google "university bond unrestricted state" and you see how wall street talks about liens on state higher education funds

I'm seeing like $200 mill the school uses for purposes other than the state budget shows as well as them. They wholly misrepresent what you are paying for and their is harm and thats fraud. They never needed a $50 mill international development public health vaccine center, buy some goddamn bed nets and save a few million from malaria before you even finish these ******* buildings. And now me and others for 30 something years at 7.47% are paying, and every bond it refunded had a lower rate it was all about bailing out medicaid debt/fraud charge and cooking UHs books

playing with my money is like playing with my emotions

Oh and maybe the state and school dont care but the LCME can still pull any plug and plenty of new schools opening that would pay for someone who finished a year/passed step 1/etc. This is the reason for private/public med education hikes and you really dont need to be footing your states medicaid debt, hospitals operating loss or whatever doucheness.

get real financial statements like these that are audited they put fake stuff out counting gross charges as revenue to make it look like tuition revenue is nothing, 10% of medical education used to be financed by tuiton, not long ago, the rest was paid by research proceeds and the patient care proceeds. The LCME has as a requirement on their site survey. Mines nearing 100%

Without the med school all these hospitals will be in the tank, we are just a resource for the brass to make money off of or offset losses. They are desperate and its not the norm or ethical

 

[Donkeykiss]

exactly why i'm leaving this state, want no part of the medical environment here. i'm just glad i'm done with new brunswick forever...but i won't even get started there.

Dude its all over, we just had a head start and umdnj corporate is satans playground

they have their own scandal section in wikipedia

Rutgers isnt much better, they just fuel research/football, plenty on the take their too they just dont have healthcare weighing them down

Its just a simple thing youd want when laying 200k on anything, what the hell am I paying for?

We arent in kindergarten, we are paying consumers, its a service and people buying a car have better recourse than all those who are sinking in debt

What books cost that much more? teachers?

Now that you are paying for more then the service you are getting, you are an investor in that research/new classroom no one goes to

Wallstreet never skipped a beat, housing fell and everything else in 07-08 and they just beefed up these bonds that will be downgraded if a school doesnt hike tuition

Swindled the family home and now education is a joke

 

[Donkeykiss]

If it is the only way the to fed clears themselves is doing what they did with mortgage crisis, step in after its too late and act like they didnt know.

I knew education was the next bubble but I thought it was kids own fault/parents. I didn't think they juiced tuition this fraudulently, an unnecessary dorm here and there is one thing but they have pumped like 2 billion of these bonds alone in nj and after everything fell in 08. Yea lets be practical and find a cure that a enough people are working on and lets make do it first class, or jump blindly into educational debt since you cant work now. They suckered us all into this stimulus nonsense.

these are audited statements the fed looks over cause its umdnj, they steal $2 million of there medicaid and an fbi swat team appears. They take $200 mill from students in one year here

 

[AlexMorph]

There is nothing that can be done about it, though...unless you can somehow bring tuition down. They have no incentive to keep these costs in check. Just look at pre-allo. You have hundreds, if not thousands, of premeds willing to sell their siblings for a spot. They will pay no matter what. Schools know this, and they have no intention of keeping down costs. They will just continue to trot out the same ****ty profs for the same reason.

 

[Donkeykiss]

Yea youre right, looks good from state angle too

1 group they do have to worry about is LCME, it normally wouldnt be a big deal cause no where else to go, but alot of new schools are in the pipeline and the only way they get final approval is by graduating a class, you wouldnt have to pay there or since it is really a lack of oversight by the LCME they could find you somewhere to finish in the area. If they lose that license the hospital will have to take money from somewhere else for the rotation spot, they need it. And there are only so many rotation spots, the only real thing any school has

A med school loses that or even probation, which has happened like twice they scare people and money off

And for other people they should just got to community college for 2 years then transfer, no one cares if you do well then. I went state all the way through and just get hosed. Least at a private school you might get a loan with a little better interest

They are gonna pull umdnj apart anyway, its too late for them in the long run. Just reading now how they gave a venture capitalist $5 mill for some lab through the healthcare foundation, they are just too slick, just looking to make a buck off devices and our state subsidy is financing

6k students if enough complain the state will break apart. People gotta look at their own schools, there are open public record laws, they play us as sheep feeding us about state budgets like you cant break out a calculator for yourself

The school is essentially worthless,without the students $170 mill a year, $113 mill in tuition revenue, and all the extras are gone. The school is a building with a license and a financial backing.

Most students I know learn on their own, its just 3/4th on

If someone was smart and had money theyd make a real bare bones college spend what you need and there would be a line out the door. its the new high school anyway. Better off getting first 2 years away from a hospital or research center so they cant leach, no reason you still cant do research on your own time.

So many extra support people like we arent adults, and intrusive. People get to this point in their academic career they shouldnt need handholding, schools never really gonna stop for us. Being able to independently learn and keep up with literature and whatever else that i dont know. I'd rather not be paying half my salary trying to pay these loans off quick. Most people study from home, just get me some lectures, a itunes cast, and a few tests and the shelf.

Pick up the early clinical stuff over the summer. That research money and state money isnt coming back, its a long term recession. Even big whigs like UCSF are struggling for grant money or maybe they all just got used to leaning on students. You dont need them, if the LCME got progressive and let a good teaching doc with connections teach 20 kids and contract rotation spots like st george does and you could end up buying a house with what you save. You end up paying 350k on 250k in loans even if you pay off quick. The researchers and all the fluff in the middle I dont need and most people dont.

Large academic space, libraries, study space and that stuff makes everything cost prohibitive and a burden now cause schools take advantage buying dipping into tuition. Doing my numbers off their financial statements I dont think we see a dime of that state money. umdnj contracts with st george and has a masters that reduces basic science cost for them too. Going rate is $450 a week and $50k annual for over 24 students for a hospital to take those kids by st george. Cut those middlemen as much as you can. Thats only like 21k a year and 3/4th are the most expensive years. NRMP and everything is online, you just need someone to oversee and give shelfs. Step 1 is the great divider

Im not saying open the doors and the standards should be the same, residency spots is the real hurdle for more docs, but this is just gonna be the norm from now on and we arent going to be making bank like others did. My schools tuition is up 34% in 3 years, 50% in 5 years, 100% in 10 years. I didnt agree to pay the state healthcare deficit, or all thus other crap umdnj does

The LCME has a site survey list and its got a section on financial aid and debt maybe theyll start using every 7 years. Althouh a person could file a complaint anonymously, since this isnt a personal thing and give the school something back

 

[Radonkulous]

If someone was smart and had money theyd make a real bare bones college spend what you need and there would be a line out the door. its the new high school anyway. Better off getting first 2 years away from a hospital or research center so they cant leach, no reason you still cant do research on your own time.

If and when I have the cash, I will do this. Had this idea a while back, but it is easier said than done. If you took the average guy off the street and told them a medical student pays a school so he can teach himself, they would without hesitation call it a bad investment of time and money. I even don't understand why a student needs to pay a school to do 3rd and 4th year rotations. You don't cost them a dime and it is the willingness/obligation of the attending to take on students at an academic institution. This prohibition could easily be circumvented much in the same way Caribbean schools do, but the first two years can be based in the US.

As I mentioned before, the whole system is a ponzi scheme.

 

[Radonkulous]

The first 2 years can be easily be circumvented with a Kaplan/DIT like learning format. Anatomy prosections and crash course clinical skills could be offered separately at an off-site facility (i.e. like Kaplan has their own offices).

 

[link2swim06]

Higher education is the biggest scam ever. You need it not help you accomplish anything, rather without it your screwed.

I pay out of state tuition, therefore for this last semester I paid ~$32,000. I attended class less than 5 times.

I don't really understand how that equals the price of a BMW, but as I said you screwed without it.

 

[AlexMorph]

You pay for the degree, not the education.

Not saying it is right, but it is true.

When the higher education bubble bursts, there will be some "fun" times ahead. I just wonder what is going to happen to this loan forgiveness business.

 

[Radonkulous]

If these elite institutions could, they would monetize their degrees on the way to infinite riches but since they are "nonprofit" entities, they are restricted to charging students a "reasonable" amount that apparently rises faster than inflation year after year while your average salary fails to keep up.

 

[bomgd3]

My school seems to spend most of our tuition on fancy TVs for the hallways, and more deans and secretaries than you can shake a stick at. Sometimes I feel like we have more deans than students.

 

[Donkeykiss]

its by no means a bad investment, its the LCME accreditation that gives it guaranteed security if you keep it up and they dont get loose with giving it out which I dont

the first 2 years cost almost nothing for the school, its the initial investment in buildings, infrastructure that cost money initially. But so many colleges have overbuilt if lcme werent stuck in the stone age and allowed auditoriums/classrooms to be leased you could circumvent it

then if you do like st george does for clinical you just contract with a school 1-2 hours away and get their teachers to provide instruction, maybe even have an easier time of lcme accreditation like if you were a branch campus

clinical education is the more expensive part
going rate Caribbean's to pay ny hospitals is 4-450 a week per student and 50k annual if they take 24 students. And every hospital that has space will do it, they need money and its found money to them. it doesnt have to be a university hospital but you just need docs/residents that know how to teach

if you had 68 students going at that rate for 50 weeks, its like 24k cost, little less for 4th year

basic science years you could do for much less, kids know the name doesnt mean much of a school. its all step 1 and their cost that matters and if its a US MD. you undercut the rest, youll get better students. If I had the money I wouldnt be looking to make it a for profit, although lcme does prohibit and palm beach is making a school that will be, just an easy nice salary and set a precedent about how cheap education could be

work with a bank and get them better rate loans and further undermine established schools, or free/cheap housing as they have overbuilt dorms as well or just buy a small apartment building near buy

as long as they didnt require you to build all that **** you wouldnt need an unobtainable amount of money with a few people with some money and excellent credit. you have to give the charter class at least a full ride too.

if you contracted as a regional campus of a school you might even get to buy a schools name for a few years. I did some number crunching awhile back and it was 7 figures to get going, how much you could get from a back for this im not sure, maybe 40% up front. buy an apartment building for a HELOC and have some other liquid collateral

its the hospitals debt/research that drives up the cost as well as corruption for overbuilding

you could set tuition at 27k easy, basic science years subsidizing clinical cost and make a nice yearly salary. get a former dean to partner up and you have an easier time of accreditation

once youre established you could contract the instruction/clinical spots more directly. $250 an hour of student contact for docs, obviously every hour doesnt count but if 2o minutes or whatever were one paper estimated like 20k a year cost

 

[Donkeykiss]

cadaver labs Im not sure, but other hospitals near by maybe you could equip their morgue to handle. only problem in first 2 years Im sure its not impossible to figure out. if so its the only thing you couldnt lease or buy on own without the expense of building yourself

As long as you could undercut other schools and get smart and independent kids that rocked step 1 it would run itself. definately do a 16 month basic science curriculum like others and give a nice 12-14 weeks of step 1 study time and a break before 3rd year. like any test its preparation. I'm not as smart as most of my class but did better on the mcats and will do better on step one than my grades predict cause ill put the time in and have a study plan and researched the best materials. you give that as part of your school and get smart kids you could have the best step average in the country, no one will care what the name of the school is. I have no idea why these med schools put such time in and leave kids with none/poor step 1 guidance or buy them the materials. whats an extra 1k you can throw in their tuition to make sure they have it. So many bright kids with straight As get left behind in undergrad because they think the mcat is the SAT and that just from class and a few weak review books and theyll be ready. Im going to make sure I hit 30k questions in 6 months before, theres definately an upper limit on aptitude but I want to be hitting without sweating so test day is a breeze