Which are Basic Science biased RadOnc res programs?

[khybs]

Hey guys,

I'm graduating in a week or so and I didn't match in Rad Onc this year... kind of funny, on that fateful match day, I found out I got an AMA grant for molecular prostate cancer research. Now that I'm in the lab when I can be (finally) I love it and I was thinking I want to continue this during residency. Do you guys know which programs have more of a preference toward people interested in basic science/lab research or programs that have opportunity to pursue this aspect seriously?

Thanks!

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[Thaiger75]

Sorry about the matching and congrats on the funding. If you applied to Rad Onc this year, I'm sure you have a sense of which programs have this preference, especially since this topic has been a mainstay in this forum...unless, you've just gotten on board in this forum.

Hey guys,

I'm graduating in a week or so and I didn't match in Rad Onc this year... kind of funny, on that fateful match day, I found out I got an AMA grant for molecular prostate cancer research. Now that I'm in the lab when I can be (finally) I love it and I was thinking I want to continue this during residency. Do you guys know which programs have more of a preference toward people interested in basic science/lab research or programs that have opportunity to pursue this aspect seriously?

Thanks!

 

[Ehrman]

MDACC
Harvard
Stanford
U Chicago
U Michigan
U Penn
Duke
Vanderbilt
Johns Hopkins
U Alabama-Birmingham
U Wisconsin

There are definitely more but these programs are a good place to start...

 

[Thaiger75]

I would personally take out MDACC from this list of basic science focused programs. Sure, as a candidate, they would love you to have this background. In the reality of the situation is that most of the research that goes around at MDACC is mainly clinical...at least compared to the U Chic, U Penns, and Vanderbilts.

MDACC
Harvard
Stanford
U Chicago
U Michigan
U Penn
Duke
Vanderbilt
Johns Hopkins
U Alabama-Birmingham
U Wisconsin

There are definitely more but these programs are a good place to start...

 

[Ehrman]

Agreed, it may not be #1 on the list for lab research (U of Chicago or Stanford is probably the best) but, it is a fantastic place to do basic science research if your interested. MDACC is probably the top place in the country to do any type of research... clinical or basic science. The faculty are phenomenal and most of the residents interested in basic science research spend time in Kian Ang's lab (along with Dr. Weischlebaum (sp?) @ U of Chicago, the best in the country.) This place is too good all around to be labelled as a basic science only program, but surely is good enough to be one of the best lab research venues anywhere.

 

[Thaiger75]

Yes, I do agree with your comments. I find it interesting, though, from what I've seen here, that not alot of the residents end up doing basic science research. Unless you spend an entire year, it is particularly difficult to have enought time to do a meaningful b-sci/translational project. The ones that I know that do b-sci research here usually extend their research time.

Agreed, it may not be #1 on the list for lab research (U of Chicago or Stanford is probably the best) but, it is a fantastic place to do basic science research if your interested. MDACC is probably the top place in the country to do any type of research... clinical or basic science. The faculty are phenomenal and most of the residents interested in basic science research spend time in Kian Ang's lab (along with Dr. Weischlebaum (sp?) @ U of Chicago, the best in the country.) This place is too good all around to be labelled as a basic science only program, but surely is good enough to be one of the best lab research venues anywhere.

 

[Ursus Martimus]

Yes, I do agree with your comments. I find it interesting, though, from what I've seen here, that not alot of the residents end up doing basic science research.

I spent a month at UC doing a rotation. One of the attendings knew I had significant lab experience and sent me on several occasions to check up on the resident and student in the lab doing westen blots on some protein involved in chromatin this that or the otherthing. I can confortably say that I would not want to spend time in that lab. I think there are many other things people that are truly translatinal researcher in the filed that woul be good to work with:

Caroline Sartor at UNC, http://www.unclineberger.org/research/faculty/displayMember.asp?ID=169

Paul Harari at UWisc,
http://www.humonc.wisc.edu/labs/hararilab/

both of whom are EGF signal transduction junckies.

If yo are looking to participate in prostate cance research, although not a radiation oncologist, Arul M. Chinnaiyan, M.D., Ph.D., university of michigan :

http://www.pathology.med.umich.edu/dynamo/chinnaiyan/index.jsp

 

[RadOncMan]

If you are interested in a program focused on basic science, I'd have to go with Vanderbilt, UPenn, Michigan, Chicago at the top. Harvard doesn't really have much basic science research going on within department - other than perhaps Rakesh Jain, but a lot of the residents there end up collaborating with people outside the department - and there a lot of studs to work with, i.e. Tyler Jacks, Dan Haber, Frederick Alt, who do research that may be involved in DNA repair, mouse models, or cell cycle. You can always do that at a lot of other institutions too, i.e. at MSKCC with Joan Massague, Pier Paolo Pandolfi, or Richard Kolodner. Unfortunately some programs like MSKCC don't really support their residents doing a lot of research as they need manpower for their clinics. You really need to find a program that will support you for the Holman Pathway - which will give you 21 to 24 months of protected research time - if you want to do anything meaningful. At Vanderbilt where all the residents are encouraged to apply for the Holman, the residents may have 2 postdocs each working for them - consider that type of potential productivity - which puts to shame a lot of the token b.s. research done at some clinically based programs.

 

[khybs]

ok then here is a three part q....
1) With this new insterest in research, in my personal statement should I mention that I am looking for a program in which I can pursue basic science research? Will I be reducing the number of programs that will consider me?

2) Will they take me seriously without a Ph.D., MPH or MS? In spite of the new research grant?

3) Should I mention that the Holman pathway maybe of interest? Will programs turn me away for mentioning this?

I spent a month at UC doing a rotation. One of the attendings knew I had significant lab experience and sent me on several occasions to check up on the resident and student in the lab doing westen blots on some protein involved in chromatin this that or the otherthing. I can confortably say that I would not want to spend time in that lab. I think there are many other things people that are truly translatinal researcher in the filed that woul be good to work with:

Caroline Sartor at UNC, http://www.unclineberger.org/research/faculty/displayMember.asp?ID=169

Paul Harari at UWisc,
http://www.humonc.wisc.edu/labs/hararilab/

both of whom are EGF signal transduction junckies.

If yo are looking to participate in prostate cance research, although not a radiation oncologist, Arul M. Chinnaiyan, M.D., Ph.D., university of michigan :

http://www.pathology.med.umich.edu/dynamo/chinnaiyan/index.jsp

 

[stephew]

ok then here is a three part q....
1) With this new insterest in research, in my personal statement should I mention that I am looking for a program in which I can pursue basic science research? Will I be reducing the number of programs that will consider me?

2) Will they take me seriously without a Ph.D., MPH or MS? In spite of the new research grant?

3) Should I mention that the Holman pathway maybe of interest? Will programs turn me away for mentioning this?

important questions. be very very careful here. Yes, some programs will NOT be interested in you if you specifically mention research interest. Others will be. But YES you will be potentially cutting out options. What to do? Tailor your essays per program. its more work but worth it.
Programs that are basic sci oriented of ocurse will take you seriosly even without the masters of whatever. As for holman; again be careful; nonresearch programs might find it a turn off. additionally, i specifically know of programs that like reseach but dont like the holman pathway as a plan. if they thought you specifically were looking for THAT avenue, that could ding you a few notches down on the rank list. again, tailor your essay. good luck.

 

[khybs]

That was exaclty what I was worried about. I think the programs mentioned in this thread will get the version that mentions I want bsci research at the institution... as for Holman, I think I will just refrain from mentioning it... except for Vanderbilt... Thank you so much man!

important questions. be very very careful here. Yes, some programs will NOT be interested in you if you specifically mention research interest. Others will be. But YES you will be potentially cutting out options. What to do? Tailor your essays per program. its more work but worth it.
Programs that are basic sci oriented of ocurse will take you seriosly even without the masters of whatever. As for holman; again be careful; nonresearch programs might find it a turn off. additionally, i specifically know of programs that like reseach but dont like the holman pathway as a plan. if they thought you specifically were looking for THAT avenue, that could ding you a few notches down on the rank list. again, tailor your essay. good luck.

 

[stephew]

Thank you so much man!

Woman. But no problem, mon.

 

[stephew]

Woman. But no problem, mon.

also, i decided i shouldnt be so cryptic here; hopkins, while they like folks to be interested particularly in translational research, aren't big holman folks. That doesnt mean youre automatically dinged if the word "holman" passes your lips. But the chair did a post residency fellowship and believes in the clinical primacy of training (as do I). So he prefers that route to holman. So just keep that in mind.

 

[RadOncMan]

also, i decided i shouldnt be so cryptic here; hopkins, while they like folks to be interested particularly in translational research, aren't big holman folks. That doesnt mean youre automatically dinged if the word "holman" passes your lips. But the chair did a post residency fellowship and believes in the clinical primacy of training (as do I). So he prefers that route to holman. So just keep that in mind.

UOTE=stephew]also, i decided i shouldnt be so cryptic here; hopkins, while they like folks to be interested particularly in translational research, aren't big holman folks. That doesnt mean youre automatically dinged if the word "holman" passes your lips. But the chair did a post residency fellowship and believes in the clinical primacy of training (as do I). So he prefers that route to holman. So just keep that in mind.[/QUOTE]


1. From your experience at Hopkings, how many residents do you personally know that have completed fellowships prior to entering academia - within the past 5 years? If so, how long have those fellowships lasted? My impression is that it is rarely if ever done now. I would think there is also a huge financial disincentive to do so, and a fellowship would not necessarily make one a more competitive faculty candidate.

2. From your residency training, do you personally feel prepared to apply for competitive funding (i.e. NIH RO1) and conduct research of equal novelty, depth, rigor, and relevance as research performed by full-time basic researchers, or for that matter Heme/Onc faculty that have spent 2-3 years conducting full-time research during their fellowship training? Do you feel that you have been equipped with the tools to independently conduct landmark or seminal studies that will make a meaningful impact on how Radiation Oncology will be practiced in the future?

-- Thanks

 

[Ursus Martimus]

ok then here is a three part q....
1) With this new insterest in research, in my personal statement should I mention that I am looking for a program in which I can pursue basic science research? Will I be reducing the number of programs that will consider me?

2) Will they take me seriously without a Ph.D., MPH or MS? In spite of the new research grant?

3) Should I mention that the Holman pathway maybe of interest? Will programs turn me away for mentioning this?

These are my own impressions and may not represent the full spectrum of opinions.

1) The fact that there is indeed a distinction on the field with respect to research is interesting. Success in research, basic or clinical, is contingent on a set of analytical skills. Success in one, although not always, suggests that an individaul pocesses those valuable skills. That being said, the time commitment for publishing a basic sciences paper is easily an order of magnitute more than a clincal paper - of course in general. Many in the field do delinate a significant difference between the two. For example one of my letter writers wrote:".. he has significant research expereince, however non of it is in radiation oncology." (oh geez thanks alot). Whereas, where i matched the chair was like, I can see you have experience doing research and writing papers, we expect more than the minimum from you, even thought they are mostly clinical. I think the way around it is to say that you have an interest in basic sciences but are interested in seeing patients as well. A strategically placed use of translatoinal research usually helps unify the differences. I would definately suggest not emphasizing anything in your personal statement that would be so narrow in interest to discount you from somewhere. ie a profound love form how tetrahymena repair radiation damage.

2. Seriously I think is a matter of how seriously you take it. DO you make more than a minimal effort? Can you understand what it is like to do science? One question I was asked on the interview trail was, "if you had a million dollar grant to do research, how would you spend it?" NOw if you are really into science you should be able to come up with some ideas. The other thing to remember is that their will be people with significantly more research experience than you, so it pays to be humble.

3. First off, I am yet to see someone look poorly upon the Holman Pathway. You have to understand that programs have to absorb some slack in your training as it takes you away from their patients. Ironically it is not a direct function of the program size, as UNC was highly supportive even though they have only 4 residents. I might keep it out of my essay, although it is fair game to talk about at interviews. I can hardly image a top program dinging you for asking, and by most standards Hopkins is not a top program so it doesn't surprise me that they might - but I have no personal experience.

 

[khybs]

ahh, you went to USC as well eh?

...One question I was asked on the interview trail was, "if you had a million dollar grant to do research, how would you spend it?"

 

[khybs]

Ok, forgive my igorance but what exactly is defined as translational research? bsci research that has direct clinical implications?

...A strategically placed use of translatoinal research usually helps unify the differences. I would definately suggest not emphasizing anything in your personal statement that would be so narrow in interest to discount you from somewhere. ie a profound love form how tetrahymena repair radiation damage...

 

[khybs]

oye! Sorry...

Woman. But no problem, mon.

 

[radiaterMike]

... basic science research that can be translated into the clinic. As you can imagine this is often a vague boundary, and "translational" is often just a buzzword that has different meanings to different people.

Ok, forgive my igorance but what exactly is defined as translational research? bsci research that has direct clinical implications?

 

[Ursus Martimus]

and "translational" is often just a buzzword that has different meanings to different people.

And hence the beauty of it, as it illustrates that you are interested in contributing but don't over-commit. The reader of the essay will most likely interpret the statement favorably. As even programs with non-existant basic sciences - will pride themselves in some form of translational research.

 

[khybs]

kind of funny, a good vauge term to use... thanks guys

And hence the beauty of it, as it illustrates that you are interested in contributing but don't over-commit. The reader of the essay will most likely interpret the statement favorably. As even programs with non-existant basic sciences - will pride themselves in some form of translational research.

 

[khybs]

as long as we were talking about the personal statement, should I abide a one page max length? I have a lot of information to cram in there and I'm having a hard time keeping it under two pages....

And hence the beauty of it, as it illustrates that you are interested in contributing but don't over-commit. The reader of the essay will most likely interpret the statement favorably. As even programs with non-existant basic sciences - will pride themselves in some form of translational research.

 

[stephew]

1. From your experience at Hopkings, how many residents do you personally know that have completed fellowships prior to entering academia - within the past 5 years? If so, how long have those fellowships lasted? My impression is that it is rarely if ever done now. I would think there is also a huge financial disincentive to do so, and a fellowship would not necessarily make one a more competitive faculty candidate.

none. At brigham there are a couple of foreign fellows and one american who is doing a brachy fellow. the only readon to do a fellowship is basically to learn something you didnt in residency. radonc residencies are much more heterogenous than most i think.

2. From your residency training, do you personally feel prepared to apply for competitive funding (i.e. NIH RO1) and conduct research of equal novelty, depth, rigor, and relevance as research performed by full-time basic researchers, or for that matter Heme/Onc faculty that have spent 2-3 years conducting full-time research during their fellowship training? Do you feel that you have been equipped with the tools to independently conduct landmark or seminal studies that will make a meaningful impact on how Radiation Oncology will be practiced in the future?

well no, not from my residency experience but yes in terms of just could i do it; it depends upon the support you have around you and where i am now i have good support. So the answer is yes buyt not cos of residency.