Which is harder: getting into UG or Med at given school?

[Arsenophilia]

Do you guys think its harder to get into school X for undergrad or is it harder to get in for med school? Lets assume that there isn't an extreme disparity between the two ranks (and ignore Princeton med school and UCSF undergrad), so closer to Harvard undergrad/med than to UCSD undergrad/med.
I'm torn because there are much less spaces for med school with much greater competition, but at the same time, many highschoolers that I knew got into places like Stanford only because their parents pushed them hard. Without that impetus, these same students flat-out tanked college, removing some of the competition for med school and making it seem harder to get into undergrad.
What are your thoughts?

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[mfrizzo3]

undergrad

 

[red10]

med school. it's pretty much purely a numbers game at so many undergrad schools, if you have a good score, you can get in to a decent school with minimal effort other than submitting an application. There's no interview, you don't have to have any serious ECs etc.


* i misread the question so I edited my post.oops

 

[alibai3ah]

medical school.

 

[sustentacular]

medical school.

+1

 

[BBender716]

undergrad, because there are so many things out of your control for undergrad that become in your control or less of a factor for med school (alumni relations, high school graduation, etc.).

 

[guyski79]

Medical school.

Not only is it harder statistically (2-7% at almost every med school, compared to 10-11% at the top undergrads), but there are more selection criteria at play for med schools.

That means you have to be better in more areas and have a more diverse skill set to be accepted to med school.

Case in point: the vast majority of undergrads don't do personal interviews, but every med school does. You can get into undergrad with zero people skills, but you'll have a much harder time doing the same for med school.

 

[BBender716]

I guess something else I failed to consider was the actual applicant pool you're competing with is much tougher as well for medical school. Something to think about.

 

[austinap]

Medical school.

Not only is it harder statistically (2-7% at almost every med school, compared to 10-11% at the top undergrads), but there are more selection criteria at play for med schools.

That means you have to be better in more areas and have a more diverse skill set to be accepted to med school.

+1

This, plus take in all of the self-selection that happens before people even get to the point of applying to med schools. Tons of 'pre-meds' decide that they don't want to even try for med school after getting destroyed in their first year. I'd say <50% of people that start out as pre-medical ever actually apply to med school.

 

[guyski79]

+1

This, plus take in all of the self-selection that happens before people even get to the point of applying to med schools. Tons of 'pre-meds' decide that they don't want to even try for med school after getting destroyed in their first year. I'd say <50% of people that start out as pre-medical ever actually apply to med school.

Exactly. I had about 8 friends that were pre-med as freshman at my undergrad.

Only two of us have stuck through it and actually applied.

 

[FloatOn]

+1

This, plus take in all of the self-selection that happens before people even get to the point of applying to med schools. Tons of 'pre-meds' decide that they don't want to even try for med school after getting destroyed in their first year. I'd say <50% of people that start out as pre-medical ever actually apply to med school.

Yup, medical school.

 

[ijn]

undergrad. it's pretty much purely a numbers game at so many schools.

Med school is pretty much a numbers game.

 

[guyski79]

Med school is pretty much a numbers game.

To an extent, sure, but once you get above the certain numbers threshold, they don't really matter.

The other non-numerical factors are much more important. It's pretty hard to find an undergrad school that requires 5 (!) letters of recommendation.

 

[apumic]

UG<<<<<<Med school.

Come on. There are far more UGs at every level of rank and almost everyone who applies broadly with decent stats will get in somewhere. Additionally, for med school, it's a "numbers are not nearly enough but still absolutely necessary" game, whereas for UG, it's much more about the numbers and less about the actual experience you have. Further, the applicant pool is much, much more competitive. It's simply a different game. Unless we're comparing Caribbean Med Schools to UG, there really is no comparison.

 

[osumc2014]

It's like asking "is it harder to get into medical school than residency?". People are at different stages in their lives, you might have thought organic chemistry would be impossible in high school, but once in college, it becomes a challenge, but certainly not impossible, there is no comparison there.

 

[Arsenophilia]

It's like asking "is it harder to get into medical school than residency?". People are at different stages in their lives, you might have thought organic chemistry would be impossible in high school, but once in college, it becomes a challenge, but certainly not impossible, there is no comparison there.

Point taken, but for the ability at each stage, which would seem harder on average? In my experience, it was harder to get the stats for a higher ranking UG than for a higher ranking med school, but at the same time I feel that med school should be harder to get into because of how competitive its pool is in comparison to the UG applicant pool. Weird right? I'm positive there must be plenty of people with a completely different experience. Just curious what makes it different.

 

[avo]

I think medical school is, taken as a whole, tougher to get into than undergrad.

But I think the undergrad process is pathetically arbitrary, even more than any medical school process. The lack of interviews has been mentioned, as well as the fact that the applications are literally just submission of scores and MAYBE an essay (for the top private institutions).

 

[greatnt249]

I can't believe this is even a question; medical school takes the cake by a long shot. Getting into ANY medical school is much more difficult than getting into ANY college.

 

[URHere]

I can't believe this is even a question; medical school takes the cake by a long shot. Getting into ANY medical school is much more difficult than getting into ANY college.

Agreed. Is isn't uncommon to talk to premeds with fairly solid scores, clinical experience, and relatable personalities who are frustrated by going through yet another year without a medical school acceptance. I would be surprised if high school students of similar caliber had such a difficult time finding a 4 year school to accept them.

That being said, some people will never get into Harvard undergrad or Harvard med - but will eventually end up in medical school. Considering how many people improve their mediocre high school records while in college, this would not surprise me at all. However, applicants are more mature and better qualified by the time they get to the medical school phase. I believe that if the same person (with all of the pre-med bells and whistles) applied to both their state medical school and harvard undergrad, they would stand the better chance at being accepted to harvard simply because the acceptance rate is higher and because they have an impressive resume to back them (far above what is expected for an undergrad).

It is hard to give a completely solid answer to your question, though. Many people never apply to ivy league undergrads or top 10 schools because they just can't afford them and, as I said above, an high school resume is almost never equivalent to a pre-medical resume.

 

[cubssox2000]

Point taken, but for the ability at each stage, which would seem harder on average? In my experience, it was harder to get the stats for a higher ranking UG than for a higher ranking med school, but at the same time I feel that med school should be harder to get into because of how competitive its pool is in comparison to the UG applicant pool. Weird right? I'm positive there must be plenty of people with a completely different experience. Just curious what makes it different.

It is about 1000000x harder to get into med school.

From a time perspective: It takes about 3 days to apply to a UG. Your grades don't matter that much unless you are going to an Ivy League school. All you have to do is write an essay, and there is no interview. It takes more than 4 years to apply to medical school. Starting with volunteering, clinical experiences, research, adding in the fact that you need to have a GPA in the 3.7 area while taking classes like Ochem, physics and bio, then studying for the MCAT, which can take about a 8 months in and of itself, applying to school takes another 2 months, interviews run from September to March, and then you have to wait until May to hear back or even until August if you are on waitlisted. There is no question that it is harder to apply to and getting into medical school.

Also, there are less than 150 medical schools in the country (not including Caribbean), while there are thousands of undergraduate schools, not to mention that you can get a bachelors degree online.

The students who apply to undergraduate schools are all the same. Very few people have really defined themselves by the end of high school. When applying to medical school you need to stand out. You must have something that makes you memorable. Also, there are no interviews in undergrad admissions, so you don't have to have any interpersonal skills. All medical schools require an interview, so even if you have the numbers to get in, you still need a personality that can impress an admissions committee.

There is no question that it is easier to get into any undergraduate school than any medical school. Its pure logic. Think about it and you will see how pointless the question is.

 

[guyski79]

It is about 1000000x harder to get into med school.

From a time perspective: It takes about 3 days to apply to a UG. Your grades don't matter that much unless you are going to an Ivy League school. All you have to do is write an essay, and there is no interview. It takes more than 4 years to apply to medical school. Starting with volunteering, clinical experiences, research, adding in the fact that you need to have a GPA in the 3.7 area while taking classes like Ochem, physics and bio, then studying for the MCAT, which can take about a 8 months in and of itself, applying to school takes another 2 months, interviews run from September to March, and then you have to wait until May to hear back or even until August if you are on waitlisted. There is no question that it is harder to apply to and getting into medical school.

Also, there are less than 150 medical schools in the country (not including Caribbean), while there are thousands of undergraduate schools, not to mention that you can get a bachelors degree online.

The students who apply to undergraduate schools are all the same. Very few people have really defined themselves by the end of high school. When applying to medical school you need to stand out. You must have something that makes you memorable. Also, there are no interviews in undergrad admissions, so you don't have to have any interpersonal skills. All medical schools require an interview, so even if you have the numbers to get in, you still need a personality that can impress an admissions committee.

There is no question that it is easier to get into any undergraduate school than any medical school. Its pure logic. Think about it and you will see how pointless the question is.

Just to expand on that point, there are about 16,000,000 students enrolled at colleges or universities (US Census estimate from 2004), while there are just under 18,000 matriculants to US medical schools in 2007 (from AAMC data).

Yeah, definitely WAY WAY harder to get into medical school. Getting into ANY medical school is on par with getting into the most selective undergrad.

 

[Law2Doc]

...
Yeah, definitely WAY WAY harder to get into medical school. Getting into ANY medical school is on par with getting into the most selective undergrad.

No on par, much harder. Even at the most selective undergrad, most of the folks who were premed freshman year won't get into med school. But they got into that undergrad. It's not a complicated question. Med schools have fewer slots. The competition applying to med school is better, thanks to self selection and the many difficult hurdles you have to jump through to make yourself a realistic applicant. The process is harder (you have to do the prereqs, then get a competitive score on the MCAT, and do ECs, and do well in an interview, and have many solid LORs, etc.

At each stage, simply because the noncompetitive people are weeded out or self select out, the competition is dramatically harder. It may have been hard as a high school student to get into a good college, but you were only competing with other high school students. 4 years later, applying to med school, you are now competing with folks who have accomplished more (gotten good grades, scored well on the MCAT, done interesting ECs). And more importantly, they represent the most competitive X% of your college, because the dude with the gentleman's C isn't going to even think about med school. So you are competing exclusively with (1) people who already got into college, and (2) got decent grades, and (3) did all the other hurdles necessary for med school. That's a much headier group than the high school crowd you competed with the last time. So it's sort of like saying which is harder, getting onto a varsity college team or getting onto the olympic squad. Each stage gets to cherry pick the best from the last stage. You will see the same thing if you seek out a more competitive residency 4 years later -- lots of self selection and board score related "selection", fewer slots, more people who have proved themselves in multiple ways (esp research, away rotations) to try to distinguish themselves from the pack.

 

[schrizto]

Medical school is definitely harder.

- Legacy plays a much bigger role in undergrad admissions.
- Almost everyone can get into college nowadays
- Interviews for college apps are a joke, if there are any at all
- In med school admissions you are competing with people who survived pre-med for fewer spots
- In many cases the medical school of an institution is considered top-tier while the undergrad is not, while there's really no such thing vice-versa. Think Pitt undergrad vs Pitt Med.

 

[mybubbles14]

Med school is definitely harder! I wasn't worried about not getting into a top school when I was applying to undergrad...but rejoiced beyond any of my undergrad acceptances when I got into 1 medical school (so far). If you compare getting into my undergrad institution vs. our medical school specifically that is a no brainer. Out of my pre-med friends/classmates from my year who applied to our med school I only know 2 that got in. I didn't even apply, partly because they likely have the most ridiculous secondary and also because I didn't want to give them the satisfaction of rejecting me after all that money they just got from me.

No worries, I wouldn't want to stay there for another 4 years anyways...

 

[ahowardmd]

I can't believe this is actually a debated question...medical school is and will always be MUCH harder than getting into undergrad!

When I applied to undergrad, I wrote an essay and sent my application off to my local school (UCF)...done deal, two weeks later I had my scholarship forms in the mailbox. Is it harder in the northeast?

Plus, I feel like people who say things like "I have to get into a good college" are douches. A state school is good enough to do well in and get into medical school...or maybe that's just the blue collar middle class in me.

 

[trep14]

Medical school, without question. I sleepwalked through high school with a 3.2 gpa and got a good act score and was moderately involved in stuff at my school and got accepted at nearly every college I applied to, some of which were very good. For the medical school application process, I had a great gpa (~ 3.9) and great e.c.'s yet only a mediocre mcat (28) and have only been invited to interview at two of the M.D. schools of the 9 that I applied to and currently have one acceptance and am on the waitlist at the other. When I got in to the school that I have been accepted at, I felt like dancing in the streets because I truly believed I wasn't going to get in anywhere. I just can't believe how being mediocre in one aspect of the medical school application process can severely limit your success in a given cycle. The amount of competition to get in to even the lowest ranked U.S. M.D. schools is on par, if not more competitive, than the amount of competition to get in to the top ranked undergrad colleges.

 

[ahowardmd]

Medical school, without question. I sleepwalked through high school with a 3.2 gpa and got a good act score and was moderately involved in stuff at my school and got accepted at nearly every college I applied to, some of which were very good. For the medical school application process, I had a great gpa (~ 3.9) and great e.c.'s yet only a mediocre mcat (28) and have only been invited to interview at two of the M.D. schools of the 9 that I applied to and currently have one acceptance and am on the waitlist at the other. When I got in to the school that I have been accepted at, I felt like dancing in the streets because I truly believed I wasn't going to get in anywhere. I just can't believe how being mediocre in one aspect of the medical school application process can severely limit your success in a given cycle. The amount of competition to get in to even the lowest ranked U.S. M.D. schools is on par, if not more competitive, than the amount of competition to get in to the top ranked undergrad colleges.

I know how you feel man...the last few years have been tough, knowing that after mentally suffering through all the pre-med classes, you still might not get in! After all this time I can finally, with some certainty, that I'm going to be a doctor when I grow up

 

[Fibroblastman]

Med school

 

[alibai3ah]

The attrition rate is also much higher from college to med school than high school to college.

Med School to residency is like 97% make it, so I would say the big hurdle is getting into medical school. I thought getting into undergrad was easy....