I know it is irrelevant, but just out of curiosity...
Which one of these Ivies do you think has the best UNDERGRAD education?
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Dartmouth! How do I know? Because I've attended EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM! <img border="0" alt="[Laughy]" title="" src="graemlins/laughy.gif" />
Seriously, how can anyone answer this?!?
Seriously, how can anyone answer this?!?
•••quote:•••Originally posted by SwampMan:
•Dartmouth! How do I know? Because I've attended EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM! <img border="0" alt="[Laughy]" title="" src="graemlins/laughy.gif" />
Seriously, how can anyone answer this?!?•••••Haha. I know.
The question should have been something like "Which one of these Ivies do you THINK has the best undergrad education?"
•Dartmouth! How do I know? Because I've attended EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM! <img border="0" alt="[Laughy]" title="" src="graemlins/laughy.gif" />
Seriously, how can anyone answer this?!?•••••Haha. I know.
The question should have been something like "Which one of these Ivies do you THINK has the best undergrad education?"
A
A. Caveman
screw it, i answered it objectively. usnews says princeton. so i do too.
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How could ANY method of ranking schools be truly objective, let alone accurate? This poll reflects either how many people attend the listed school (who then voted for their own) or biased impressions. Having said that, I'm going to root for Yale, and offer a sympathy vote for Dartmouth.
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•••quote:•••Originally posted by dukee:
•you guys don't know what you are missing. Forget the ivies. Go to Duke. Or Stanford. That is where the party is.•••••Yep, Durham, now there's a happening town. :wink:
•you guys don't know what you are missing. Forget the ivies. Go to Duke. Or Stanford. That is where the party is.•••••Yep, Durham, now there's a happening town. :wink:
B
BlackPuma
why wasn't none of the above an option?
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bigger graduate dept. means more opportunities for undergraduates. when your school has a big grad program, it's not like the graduate resources are limited to only graduate students. when going to study, i get to choose from 30 different libraries; i crash the weekly business school parties; i work in the med school and bio dept's labs; i get to see panel discussions from the law/international affairs/journalism schools; take classes in any of the grad schools; etc. the list goes on. the truth is that the bigger the grad. programs, the more opportunities you have. nothing is limited for grad. students only and there is no such thing as "focus" on undergrad education, just fewer opportunities.
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give me a break, choker.
you obviously have never benefitted from a liberal arts education, where undergraduate education is KEY and the focus.
my sister's at an Ivy and she never sees her professors. she gets taught by the graduate students. are you going to tell me that's the highest quality education? bc some big shot econ guy comes to teach your class once in a blue moon but every other aspect of your econ class is handled by teaching assistants???
i respect ivy graduate programs a lot more than undergraduate ivy programs.
you obviously have never benefitted from a liberal arts education, where undergraduate education is KEY and the focus.
my sister's at an Ivy and she never sees her professors. she gets taught by the graduate students. are you going to tell me that's the highest quality education? bc some big shot econ guy comes to teach your class once in a blue moon but every other aspect of your econ class is handled by teaching assistants???
i respect ivy graduate programs a lot more than undergraduate ivy programs.
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well maybe that's just her school; all my professor-taught classes are taught solely by the professors. the only classes that are not taught by prof. here are the core classes which are taught by preceptors (published 4th-5th year grad students) and they only teach about 1/2 of the sections of classes like our required writing class and some seminars. in those cases, we don't need a full prof. because the classes are student-led seminars where the preceptor is just there to direct the arguments. also, since these courses are introductory, broad, survey courses, the teachers are much much much more than qualified to teach us_ my best teachers here have been preceptors. and besides, all my preceptors went on to be full professors the next years at other ivys. whatever, i haven't met anyone here that has complained about the grad student teachers. grad students tend to be much cooler teachers_ i've gone out drinking with my teachers after class all the time, and they're much more lenient when it comes to extensions. there are much more complaints about bad professors. but still, i MUST say that the drawbacks of having preceptors (if any) are completely outweighed by the enormous opportunities we get from having grad schools. it seems that almost every day we get a phone message or email inviting us to see some world-famous guy lecture on something really interesting at one of the grad schools.
but maybe this is only the case with my school; obviously your sister had a different experience. the truth is that different schools have different systems when it comes to this, but unless you've seen all of the systems, you can't generalize that schools with strong grad programs give their undergrads inferior experiences.
btw- dartmouth and princeton are in the middle of nowhere. there's nothing to do at either school except drink.
but maybe this is only the case with my school; obviously your sister had a different experience. the truth is that different schools have different systems when it comes to this, but unless you've seen all of the systems, you can't generalize that schools with strong grad programs give their undergrads inferior experiences.
btw- dartmouth and princeton are in the middle of nowhere. there's nothing to do at either school except drink.
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As my pathology professor states "The hardest part about my Ivy League Education was getting in".
The Ivys, and most private schools for that matter, are grossly overpriced, and many overrated.
The Ivys, and most private schools for that matter, are grossly overpriced, and many overrated.
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what's with all this ivy-bashing? what the hell? i work my ass off. Getting in was the freakin' EASIEST part of school. granted, ivys may not be the BEST you can get; you can find a quality education anywhere, and some may be right in arguing that the best schools aren't even ivy. But it is true that, in general, ivy represent 8 very good schools, with a relatively accomplished and smart student body, where the academic experience is generally very good to excellent, and the stress and work can be very intense.
this ivy-bashing is based on unsubstantiated hearsay and i refuse to sit back and watch you guys devalue the education i've sacrificed so much for and worked so incredibly hard to nurture.
this ivy-bashing is based on unsubstantiated hearsay and i refuse to sit back and watch you guys devalue the education i've sacrificed so much for and worked so incredibly hard to nurture.
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•••quote:•••Originally posted by choker:
•what's with all this ivy-bashing? what the hell? i work my ass off. Getting in was the freakin' EASIEST part of school. granted, ivys may not be the BEST you can get; you can find a quality education anywhere, and some may be right in arguing that the best schools aren't even ivy. But it is true that, in general, ivy represent 8 very good schools, with a relatively accomplished and smart student body, where the academic experience is generally very good to excellent, and the stress and work can be very intense.
this ivy-bashing is based on unsubstantiated hearsay and i refuse to sit back and watch you guys devalue the education i've sacrificed so much for and worked so incredibly hard to nurture.•••••You go boy!
•what's with all this ivy-bashing? what the hell? i work my ass off. Getting in was the freakin' EASIEST part of school. granted, ivys may not be the BEST you can get; you can find a quality education anywhere, and some may be right in arguing that the best schools aren't even ivy. But it is true that, in general, ivy represent 8 very good schools, with a relatively accomplished and smart student body, where the academic experience is generally very good to excellent, and the stress and work can be very intense.
this ivy-bashing is based on unsubstantiated hearsay and i refuse to sit back and watch you guys devalue the education i've sacrificed so much for and worked so incredibly hard to nurture.•••••You go boy!
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vyc: lesser ivy or not, i still appear to have had a better academic experience than your sister.
don't take such offense because i do not agree with the reasons why you chose a LAC.
whatever, vivian, you are a bitch.
don't take such offense because i do not agree with the reasons why you chose a LAC.
whatever, vivian, you are a bitch.
•••quote:•••Originally posted by vyc:
•not all ivies were created equal.
i will bet that choker goes to one of the lesser ivies.•••••dude, calm down.
That would be equivalent to saying
"Not all human beings are created equal.
I will bet that vyc is one of the lesser human beings."
•not all ivies were created equal.
i will bet that choker goes to one of the lesser ivies.•••••dude, calm down.
That would be equivalent to saying
"Not all human beings are created equal.
I will bet that vyc is one of the lesser human beings."
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•••quote:•••Originally posted by choker:
•vyc: lesser ivy or not, i still appear to have had a better academic experience than your sister.
don't take such offense because i do not agree with the reasons why you chose a LAC.
whatever, vivian, you are a bitch.•••••Geez, dude, you gotta chill out. You are from New York City, you gotta be able to handle a certain level of criticism. So what if people bash your school that sucks up your and your parents' bank accounts.
I went to Cornell and I have to say that it wasn't exactly to easiest place to be. The numerous premeds there are very intelligent and quite competitive, so it was difficult to get decent grades. Certain classes spell death for premeds. All in all, I didn't feel that my school provided me with the best undergrad education, just ENDLESS amount of homework and reading every week. It deterred us from truly enjoying the actual level of education provided and also the lovely gorges as well as the beautiful sceneries that are present on campus, since everyone is so stressed out with work. But anyways, if I had to do it all over again, I would gladly do so. :wink:
•vyc: lesser ivy or not, i still appear to have had a better academic experience than your sister.
don't take such offense because i do not agree with the reasons why you chose a LAC.
whatever, vivian, you are a bitch.•••••Geez, dude, you gotta chill out. You are from New York City, you gotta be able to handle a certain level of criticism. So what if people bash your school that sucks up your and your parents' bank accounts.
I went to Cornell and I have to say that it wasn't exactly to easiest place to be. The numerous premeds there are very intelligent and quite competitive, so it was difficult to get decent grades. Certain classes spell death for premeds. All in all, I didn't feel that my school provided me with the best undergrad education, just ENDLESS amount of homework and reading every week. It deterred us from truly enjoying the actual level of education provided and also the lovely gorges as well as the beautiful sceneries that are present on campus, since everyone is so stressed out with work. But anyways, if I had to do it all over again, I would gladly do so. :wink:
•••quote:•••Originally posted by choker:
•vyc: lesser ivy or not, i still appear to have had a better academic experience than your sister.
don't take such offense because i do not agree with the reasons why you chose a LAC.
whatever, vivian, you are a bitch.•••••what is LAC?
•vyc: lesser ivy or not, i still appear to have had a better academic experience than your sister.
don't take such offense because i do not agree with the reasons why you chose a LAC.
whatever, vivian, you are a bitch.•••••what is LAC?
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my two cents:
i think that whether you fall into the "choker school" of preferring lots of resources (ie big university) or the princeton/dartmouth school of thought that says the college should be the focus is a personal choice. whether you get a better education at one kind of university or the other is very much based on how you assimilate information.
that being said, in terms of the large university setting with loads of awesome resources, i vote for yale (no big surprise there) over harvard which i think is just below it. hands down, harvard has more stuff to offer, but it's just a little bit more out of reach than just about any normal undergraduate can handle. in terms of the "college" ivies, my vote goes to princeton. it's definitely a cut above dartmouth academically.
point number three: why does everyone give such a hoot about the ivy debate? no question that a school like duke or stamford or amherst is going to give you far more than penn or brown. i am all for awesome universities and certainly love the ivy league (which, i shouldn't have to remind you is an antiquated and generally quite mediocre athletic conference!!) but it shouldn't be such a hot issue. get over it - it just doesn't mean what it used to.
i think that whether you fall into the "choker school" of preferring lots of resources (ie big university) or the princeton/dartmouth school of thought that says the college should be the focus is a personal choice. whether you get a better education at one kind of university or the other is very much based on how you assimilate information.
that being said, in terms of the large university setting with loads of awesome resources, i vote for yale (no big surprise there) over harvard which i think is just below it. hands down, harvard has more stuff to offer, but it's just a little bit more out of reach than just about any normal undergraduate can handle. in terms of the "college" ivies, my vote goes to princeton. it's definitely a cut above dartmouth academically.
point number three: why does everyone give such a hoot about the ivy debate? no question that a school like duke or stamford or amherst is going to give you far more than penn or brown. i am all for awesome universities and certainly love the ivy league (which, i shouldn't have to remind you is an antiquated and generally quite mediocre athletic conference!!) but it shouldn't be such a hot issue. get over it - it just doesn't mean what it used to.
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I never intended to belittle any Ivy League education. The education received at any of these schools is top notch, as anyone would agree too. However, there are people out there who have this "holier-than-thou" attitude when it comes to having an Ivy degree when in fact most major state schools will give you as good of an education for 1/4 the price. It's just society in general. For example, notice how on Survivor, when they put the person's name and occupation at the bottom of the screen, they will say "Will, Ivy League Graduate". Big friggin deal! What does he do for a living now? Unemployed?" Would they say "Chris, Big 10 graduate" for me? Probably not.
As a personal aside, I worked for a scientific software company for a year before med school and had the opportunity to visit most of the Ivy schools as well as tons of smaller, lesser-known schools. Within my company, the Ivys had the nickname of "IQs of Ivy Plants" because the professors we dealt with (25+) werent the sharpest tools in the shed. We'd get called with the same questions, by the same professors, several times a week. Ummm, hello McFly? Anyone home? We've been over this!!! Whereas when we'd visit a lesser known school, the faculty would already have read our manual by the time we arrived, had the class trained on the software, and had suggestions for improving the software. This wasnt limited to the "lesser Ivys" either. Across the board.
Anyway, this is just my $0.02 from my personal experiences. Dont bite my head off. I'd still take an Ivy degree, but I wouldnt pay for one.
As a personal aside, I worked for a scientific software company for a year before med school and had the opportunity to visit most of the Ivy schools as well as tons of smaller, lesser-known schools. Within my company, the Ivys had the nickname of "IQs of Ivy Plants" because the professors we dealt with (25+) werent the sharpest tools in the shed. We'd get called with the same questions, by the same professors, several times a week. Ummm, hello McFly? Anyone home? We've been over this!!! Whereas when we'd visit a lesser known school, the faculty would already have read our manual by the time we arrived, had the class trained on the software, and had suggestions for improving the software. This wasnt limited to the "lesser Ivys" either. Across the board.
Anyway, this is just my $0.02 from my personal experiences. Dont bite my head off. I'd still take an Ivy degree, but I wouldnt pay for one.
B
BlackPuma
•••quote:•••Originally posted by Legi:
• •••quote:•••Originally posted by WatchaMaCallit:
•why wasn't none of the above an option? •••••You can simply choose not to vote ! •••••well...what da heck do you think I ended up doing?
I tellz you civil disobediance is the best answer?
• •••quote:•••Originally posted by WatchaMaCallit:
•why wasn't none of the above an option?
•••••You can simply choose not to vote ! •••••well...what da heck do you think I ended up doing? I tellz you civil disobediance is the best answer?
B
BlackPuma
•••quote:•••Originally posted by choker:
•bigger graduate dept. means more opportunities for undergraduates. when your school has a big grad program, it's not like the graduate resources are limited to only graduate students. when going to study, i get to choose from 30 different libraries; i crash the weekly business school parties; i work in the med school and bio dept's labs; i get to see panel discussions from the law/international affairs/journalism schools; take classes in any of the grad schools; etc. the list goes on. the truth is that the bigger the grad. programs, the more opportunities you have. nothing is limited for grad. students only and there is no such thing as "focus" on undergrad education, just fewer opportunities.•••••sorry I had to say this....but bigger iz not alwayz better....it depends on how you use your school's rescources....well duh...I was talking about school...what da hell where you thinking mister? or misses....or wait is that mistress?! dang, there isn't an equivalent to mister...or maybe it is madam...sigh and the monkey begins to scratch his head...
•bigger graduate dept. means more opportunities for undergraduates. when your school has a big grad program, it's not like the graduate resources are limited to only graduate students. when going to study, i get to choose from 30 different libraries; i crash the weekly business school parties; i work in the med school and bio dept's labs; i get to see panel discussions from the law/international affairs/journalism schools; take classes in any of the grad schools; etc. the list goes on. the truth is that the bigger the grad. programs, the more opportunities you have. nothing is limited for grad. students only and there is no such thing as "focus" on undergrad education, just fewer opportunities.•••••sorry I had to say this....but bigger iz not alwayz better....it depends on how you use your school's rescources....well duh...I was talking about school...what da hell where you thinking mister? or misses....or wait is that mistress?! dang, there isn't an equivalent to mister...or maybe it is madam...sigh and the monkey begins to scratch his head...
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It's a fact of life that people are hyper-protective of their own school, grad or undergrad. No one likes anyone talking **** about where you go, because the schools are defined by the students. Saying you go to a "lesser" school is a direct personal afront, in my opinion. So what the cat is from NYC? That means you can be a pincushion to insults? BS. --Trek
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i like being called a bitch. lol
•••quote:•••Originally posted by choker:
•vyc: lesser ivy or not, i still appear to have had a better academic experience than your sister. •••••yes, this is true and my POINT was that you probably do have a better learning environment than her. why? bc you're not at Harvard or any of the other top ivies where graduate education is valued more.
•••quote:•••Originally posted by choker:
•vyc: lesser ivy or not, i still appear to have had a better academic experience than your sister. •••••yes, this is true and my POINT was that you probably do have a better learning environment than her. why? bc you're not at Harvard or any of the other top ivies where graduate education is valued more.
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•••quote:•••Originally posted by Trek:
•It's a fact of life that people are hyper-protective of their own school, grad or undergrad. No one likes anyone talking **** about where you go, because the schools are defined by the students. Saying you go to a "lesser" school is a direct personal afront, in my opinion. So what the cat is from NYC? That means you can be a pincushion to insults? BS. --Trek•••••What I was saying is that NYC is a hostile city and if he is sensitive to stuff like that, he will be angry ALL THE TIME.
•It's a fact of life that people are hyper-protective of their own school, grad or undergrad. No one likes anyone talking **** about where you go, because the schools are defined by the students. Saying you go to a "lesser" school is a direct personal afront, in my opinion. So what the cat is from NYC? That means you can be a pincushion to insults? BS. --Trek•••••What I was saying is that NYC is a hostile city and if he is sensitive to stuff like that, he will be angry ALL THE TIME.
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Other than bashing for sports, can we please get over the bashing for which school is better? I truly think that all colleges in the "highly competitive" category (of which Ivies are only a small part of) are very similar. Many use the same textbooks. All have both spectacular and disappointing faculty, however well-renowned. I am tired of hearing this "holier than thou" attitude (and before anyone gets on my case, I went to a great Ivy, and it was great for me, but I certainly don't think that it is "better" than say, another highly competitive college)- besides, it not about any of that anymore. If you look at your med school class next year, you'll find that it didn't matter which school you went to, but what you did with your opportunities.
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Are you kidding me.. The degree of difference among the Ivies or any highly competitive college is quite slim! Do you really think that the student body at Harvard is that much different than Penn.?? By the way--why does Penn still get the shaft in terms of reputation??--I love the place and it is ranked just below H Y P and MIT.
Give Penn some respect my fellow SDNErs.
Give Penn some respect my fellow SDNErs.
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Damn, it's cold in here! BTW, why is Penn getting no love in the poll?
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My best friend from high school got into numerous Ivies but chose Penn because of some undergrad program w/Wharton...I think all schools (not just Ivies), have different strengths and weaknesses and comparing is useless because people are attracted to different things in schools...ok I'm tired...noting more to say
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And I got a very personalized education at a big "Ivy-like" school (Stanford), which I almost didn't go to because I was afraid it would be too big. And it might have been, except for some lucky encounters. This whole discussion/argument is pointless. The reason the U.S. system of education is the envy of the world is because of all the choices. Can't we all just share our opinions without bashing each other and each others' schools?
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I think you can get an amazing education at most of the top schools, both ivy league and non-ivy. In defense of the larger ivy league schools, though, which other people have labeled as overly graduate-oriented, I do not feel that is necessarily true. Simply because a school has very strong graduate programs does not mean its undergraduate program is neglected; strong graduate programs often provide professors and resources that benefit the undergraduates as well.
For instance, at one of the stigmatized "graduate oriented" schools, Yale, a lot of focus is put upon the undergraduate program. The vast majority of the upper level classes are seminars, which means that students work directly with the professor in a small about 20 person setting; many of these professors are very prominent figures in the academic arena. The professors lead discussion, grade all the papers, etc. Also, as long as you have the approval of the instructor, you can take graduate classes, and a large number of the classes actually are double-listed for undergraduates and graduates. Certainly as with any school, there are large lecture classes in which you only see the professor during lectures; many of those classes are intros or involve high-demand professors, whom Yale wants to ensure that as many as people are able to learn from. For all of those classes, though, the professors have office hours, so if you really want to talk to the professor individually, he or she is available. Is this set-up unique to Yale, though? Definitely not.
Anyway, I feel like people are bashing each other's schools based primarily upon misconceptions or rumors about the school. As with most of the medical schools, I think the differences in the quality of education are minimal; each school just has its own unique personality.
For instance, at one of the stigmatized "graduate oriented" schools, Yale, a lot of focus is put upon the undergraduate program. The vast majority of the upper level classes are seminars, which means that students work directly with the professor in a small about 20 person setting; many of these professors are very prominent figures in the academic arena. The professors lead discussion, grade all the papers, etc. Also, as long as you have the approval of the instructor, you can take graduate classes, and a large number of the classes actually are double-listed for undergraduates and graduates. Certainly as with any school, there are large lecture classes in which you only see the professor during lectures; many of those classes are intros or involve high-demand professors, whom Yale wants to ensure that as many as people are able to learn from. For all of those classes, though, the professors have office hours, so if you really want to talk to the professor individually, he or she is available. Is this set-up unique to Yale, though? Definitely not.
Anyway, I feel like people are bashing each other's schools based primarily upon misconceptions or rumors about the school. As with most of the medical schools, I think the differences in the quality of education are minimal; each school just has its own unique personality.
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Can we say this is a poll to see how many of us SDNers with no life and spend all our time on this stupid site...what a popular vote this survey is....you know I have gone to community college, state school and an ivy and I think it comes down to how much energy you are willing to spend in your classes to do the work and to get to know the professors....and yeah personally I still am writting my check to salliemae every month but I would still have never traded it for the world.
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