Which residency do you see yourself pursuing?

[BlueElmo]

I'm wondering if your resident was referring to prelim surgery positions, which often go unfilled. Categorical general surgery (where you stay at one place for your 5-7 years) is becoming more and more competitive with the implementation of the 80 hour week average "restriction." I'd put it about where EM and anesthesiology are in terms of competitiveness.

But it's much less competitive than plastic or ortho, right?

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[Appless]

But it's much less competitive than plastic or ortho, right?

much less yes that is for sure.

 

[MrBurns10]

He might have been i dont know to be honest. Also that 80 our work restriction seems to be a joke. The residents still work long hours in g surgery at least at the hospital im at. The residents i work with always complain about it. Honestly the residents always talk about random **** to us lol, i think they are just excited since as undergrads there is someone lower on the totem pole then them..haha

Yep, that's why I put " "s around restriction. That's what programs are supposed to do but it doesn't always happen. And it's an average over 4 weeks, so technically if someone pulls 80 hours for 2 weeks, 100 hrs the next, the last week should be 60 hours. Should be...

 

[MrBurns10]

But it's much less competitive than plastic or ortho, right?

Absolutely. Check out the "rank the specialty" thread for my personal opinion on residency competitiveness.

Edit: Nevermind. I'm procrastinating and just copied/pasted what I wrote in that thread. Just keep in mind that the most competitive programs in the least competitive specialties are still highly competitive.

Family Med
PM&R
Psych
Peds
IM
Neuro
Pathology
Ob/Gyn
EM
Anesthesiology
General Surgery
Radiology
Ophthalmology
Urology
Ortho
Neurosurg
Rad Onc
ENT
Derm
Plastics

 

[boggle]

why all the love for ortho?

I shadowed an ortho surgeon for a while. Every surgery I watched was awesome. Had always thought I'd want to do non surgical sports medicine, but that experience changed my mind. But we'll see in med school, probably end up OBGYN or something haha.

 

[witness23]

i wanna make up my own specialty

 

[sarahg]

I always find the "ROAD"-acronym interesting. "O" traditionally refers to Ophtho, but Orthopedics and Otolaryngology are much more popular for med students and infinitely more difficult to get into.

I thought it referred to the lifestyle specialties -- not what's most competitive but what offers the easiest residencies and best hours and pay afterwards (which is why they all happen to be competitive). I've even heard it referred to as eROAD because of the easy hours, no call, and decent pay in EM.

 

[Terpskins99]

Absolutely. Check out the "rank the specialty" thread for my personal opinion on residency competitiveness.

Edit: Nevermind. I'm procrastinating and just copied/pasted what I wrote in that thread. Just keep in mind that the most competitive programs in the least competitive specialties are still highly competitive.

Family Med
PM&R
Psych
Peds
IM
Neuro
Pathology
Ob/Gyn
EM
Anesthesiology
General Surgery
Radiology
Ophthalmology
Urology
Ortho
Neurosurg
Rad Onc
ENT
Derm
Plastics

You really think ophtho is harder to get into than radiology? I dunno about that one.

I would have thought the average psych program would be harder to get into than peds.

PM&R seems to be growing in popularity, but I'm not sure how that is translating towards competitiveness of residency.

 

[ChubbyChaser]

You really think ophtho is harder to get into than radiology? I dunno about that one.

I would have thought the average psych program would be harder to get into than peds.

PM&R seems to be growing in popularity, but I'm not sure how that is translating towards competitiveness of residency.

yeah rads might be harder now...apparently applications went up like 20% or something for rads this year..

 

[MrBurns10]

You really think ophtho is harder to get into than radiology? I dunno about that one.

I would have thought the average psych program would be harder to get into than peds.

So I forced myself to split all of them, no ties. Psych/peds I'm sure are about the same but I made a decision.

And similarly, ophtho/radiology is close but I would give the edge to ophtho. The average step 1 is the same but there are a lot more radiology spots out there. Both are obviously really competitive.

 

[87138]

I don't care how "hip" it is, I don't think I"ll ever get past "rads" sounding ******ed. I realize it's cool to throw around "gas" and "rads", but it just sounds stupid/pretentious. But for some reason I have no problem whatsoever with "peds." Or any of the other abbreviations. Although when I hear other first years use any of them, it usually seems like they're making a special effort to make sure everyone else knows that they know that abbreviation exists, even if it's something simple like "derm".

"Oh you want to go into DERM? DERM sounds pretty cool, but DERM is competitive so if you wanna do DERM you'd better get some great board scores and get some good research. Otherwise you probably won't match into DERM."

/late night pointless rant.


Edit: Yes I realize "G-A-S" is easier to type than "A-N-E-S-T-H-E-S-I-O-L-O-G-Y." And same for "rads"/"radiology." But my point still stands.

 

[ButImLETired]

I don't care how "hip" it is, I don't think I"ll ever get past "rads" sounding ******ed. I realize it's cool to throw around "gas" and "rads", but it just sounds stupid/pretentious. But for some reason I have no problem whatsoever with "peds." Or any of the other abbreviations. Although when I hear other first years use any of them, it usually seems like they're making a special effort to make sure everyone else knows that they know that abbreviation exists, even if it's something simple like "derm".

"Oh you want to go into DERM? DERM sounds pretty cool, but DERM is competitive so if you wanna do DERM you'd better get some great board scores and get some good research. Otherwise you probably won't match into DERM."

/late night pointless rant.


Edit: Yes I realize "G-A-S" is easier to type than "A-N-E-S-T-H-E-S-I-O-L-O-G-Y." And same for "rads"/"radiology." But my point still stands.

Hahaha man, thanks for saying something. It bugs me to no ends. And honestly, those don't even bother me as much as cards. Cards?! Cardio works. Is cards really that much shorter?! Do you really feel way cooler cause you said cards instead of cardio or *gasp!* cardiology???

 

[87138]

Hahaha man, thanks for saying something. It bugs me to no ends. And honestly, those don't even bother me as much as cards. Cards?! Cardio works. Is cards really that much shorter?! Do you really feel way cooler cause you said cards instead of cardio or *gasp!* cardiology???

I completely forgot about "cards." That belongs on the list too.

 

[SDN2013]

so what about CTS? does that bug you guys?

what do people abbreviate ophthalmology as? eyes?

 

[87138]

so what about CTS? does that bug you guys?

what do people abbreviate ophthalmology as? eyes?

CTS works. I'm surprised someone hasn't started calling it "Cards-chest-surg."

Ophtho works for ophthalmology.

 

[BlueElmo]

I find "ENT" annoying.

 

[ButImLETired]

CTS works. I'm surprised someone hasn't started calling it "Cards-chest-surg."

Ophtho works for ophthalmology.

I just vomited on my keyboard a little. Now my ctrl key is sticky. See what you made me do?

 

[0Complications]

I can't believe that many people are interested in neurosurgery.

Did you guys pick something else too? I chose NS for one of mine, but thought most wouldn't want to work the hours.

 

[sarahl86]

Yeah, I have next to no idea what I want to do and get a little overwhelmed when I think about all the added steps med students take when they really want to match well to any given specialty...I'm kind of all over the place: love EM, Psychiatry, maybe a Peds subspecialty. I also know IM/Psych is a good possibility too. decisions, decisions

 

[smq123]

I don't care how "hip" it is, I don't think I"ll ever get past "rads" sounding ******ed. I realize it's cool to throw around "gas" and "rads", but it just sounds stupid/pretentious. But for some reason I have no problem whatsoever with "peds." Or any of the other abbreviations. Although when I hear other first years use any of them, it usually seems like they're making a special effort to make sure everyone else knows that they know that abbreviation exists, even if it's something simple like "derm".

"Oh you want to go into DERM? DERM sounds pretty cool, but DERM is competitive so if you wanna do DERM you'd better get some great board scores and get some good research. Otherwise you probably won't match into DERM."

/late night pointless rant.

It's not that it's "hip." It's just the usual abbreviation. People don't do it because they think it's cool - it's just what everyone else calls it. It actually sounds MORE unusual and pretentious if you insist on using the full name.

Do you have a problem with people who say, "I'm going to order a CBC plus diff, a chem 7, and LFTs"? Or are you going to be the one who says, "I'm going to order a complete blood count with differential, a basic metabolic panel, and liver function tests"?

And when you were in college, did you insist on telling everyone that you were enrolled in "biology, organic chemistry, and calculus," instead of "bio, orgo, and calc"? Or is that "pretentious" as well?

Hahaha man, thanks for saying something. It bugs me to no ends. And honestly, those don't even bother me as much as cards. Cards?! Cardio works. Is cards really that much shorter?! Do you really feel way cooler cause you said cards instead of cardio or *gasp!* cardiology???

VERY few people call it "cardio." The word "cardio" brings to mind a Jane Fonda exercise tape, not the internal medicine/pediatric subspecialty.

There was a thread in the surgery forum a while back where everyone made fun of a high school student who said that he wanted to be a "cardio" surgeon.

I can't believe that many people are interested in neurosurgery.

Did you guys pick something else too? I chose NS for one of mine, but thought most wouldn't want to work the hours.

Because most people don't recognize what a sacrifice neurosurg is, time wise, until they experience it for themselves. Their minds change VERY quickly.

 

[SDN2013]

CTS works. I'm surprised someone hasn't started calling it "Cards-chest-surg."

i think then they would just rather call it heart surgery or cardiac surgery

 

[Terpskins99]

So I forced myself to split all of them, no ties. Psych/peds I'm sure are about the same but I made a decision.

And similarly, ophtho/radiology is close but I would give the edge to ophtho. The average step 1 is the same but there are a lot more radiology spots out there. Both are obviously really competitive.

For as long as I've known, Radiology has always had a higher Step 1 average than Ophtho.

Last few years its been 235 versus 230. Thats significant since 235 is usually the cutoff for a 2-digit 99.

 

[BlueElmo]

What are the hours for neurosurgeon like? Why is it so bad?

 

[0Complications]

What are the hours for neurosurgeon like? Why is it so bad?

According to the neurosurgeon I was chatting with it can vary quite a bit by specialty choice and by hospital. But for the vast majority it's a lot. I remember this guy telling me that vascular neurosurgeons can put in 100+ hours a week no problem.

If I had to guess for a general neurosurgeon I would say they're at ~70-80 hours a week, but once again that would depend on how many NS they have on staff, where you are at, etc..

 

[Slack3r]

And what happens when the proposed cuts to specialist reimbursements goes through? How many of those ROAD specialties are going to stay that way? All I can say is, I see plastics/ENT getting A LOT more competitive, I mean more so than they already are.

 

[majahops]

It's so annoying how many sub-specialties fall under Internal Medicine. How OB/GYN has it's own track and Oncology always falls under the domain of Internal Medicine in terms of being a sub-specialty of Internal Medicine, and even for the purpose of these types of rating-things (versus the likes of, say, Urology) seems nearly arbitrary to me.

 

[87138]

It's not that it's "hip." It's just the usual abbreviation. People don't do it because they think it's cool - it's just what everyone else calls it. It actually sounds MORE unusual and pretentious if you insist on using the full name.

Do you have a problem with people who say, "I'm going to order a CBC plus diff, a chem 7, and LFTs"? Or are you going to be the one who says, "I'm going to order a complete blood count with differential, a basic metabolic panel, and liver function tests"?

And when you were in college, did you insist on telling everyone that you were enrolled in "biology, organic chemistry, and calculus," instead of "bio, orgo, and calc"? Or is that "pretentious" as well?

No, and when I worked in a blood lab I obviously never threw around stupid full names. In general I don't have problems with abbreviations, particularly with acronyms, which make sense. It's the shortening with the adding of "s" specifically that for some reason grinds my gears. But like I said, for some reason "peds" sounds just find to me. Don't know what it is, but "rads", "cards" and "gas" just sound silly. You're making sweeping generalizations that I clearly stated were to be avoided here. In most instances, I have no problems with abbreviations, as I said previously. So don't just take one example and start to run with it; you're trying to refute a stance no one is taking.

By the way, do people even call a BMP a "chem 7" in this decade? Only reason I can think of would be to distinguish between a BNP, but even then . . .

 

[MrBurns10]

For as long as I've known, Radiology has always had a higher Step 1 average than Ophtho.

Last few years its been 235 versus 230. Thats significant since 235 is usually the cutoff for a 2-digit 99.

This year, both rads and ophtho had a step 1 avg of 235, though you're right that historically ophtho has been a few points lower.

Here is what I found, with the caveat being that the latest data I could find for radiology is 2007 and I have the 2009 ophtho data.

Radiology: 1.28 applicants per position
Ophtho: 1.42 applicants per position

I know that doesn't tell the whole story and I think we're splitting hairs here, but I think there is something to be said for fewer spots being available. Maybe I'm wrong, I don't know, but that's why I gave ophtho the nod.

http://www.nrmp.org/data/chartingoutcomes2007.pdf
http://www.sfmatch.org/residency/ophthalmology/about_match/match_report.pdf

 

[aggiedoc2010]

I am very interested in Emergency Medicine, especially since I enjoy EMS so much. I am also thinking Tramua surgery, but I will leave it up to my third and fourth year to really decided.

 

[smq123]

In general I don't have problems with abbreviations, particularly with acronyms, which make sense. It's the shortening with the adding of "s" specifically that for some reason grinds my gears. But like I said, for some reason "peds" sounds just find to me. Don't know what it is, but "rads", "cards" and "gas" just sound silly.

While I would normally agree with you, and say that when MS1s try too hard to use medical slang/jargon it sounds pretentious - in this case, it IS what everyone else uses. I don't think there's anything particularly wrong with that.

I mean, do you have an issue when a cardiology fellow uses the word "cards" to describe what field s/he is pursuing? Or is it just when med students use that word?

By the way, do people even call a BMP a "chem 7" in this decade? Only reason I can think of would be to distinguish between a BNP, but even then . . .

Yep. I've had attendings and residents use both. Actually, for me, the older ones called it a BMP, and the younger ones called it a "Chem 7." There's probably some regional variation, though.

Most people do use the phrase CMP, though.

It's so annoying how many sub-specialties fall under Internal Medicine. How OB/GYN has it's own track and Oncology always falls under the domain of Internal Medicine in terms of being a sub-specialty of Internal Medicine, and even for the purpose of these types of rating-things (versus the likes of, say, Urology) seems nearly arbitrary to me.

Technically, "Oncology" does not ALWAYS fall under the domain of internal med. Hematology/Oncology does, but there is Gynecological oncology (which you do as a fellowship after OB/gyn), surgical oncology (after general surgery), and radiation oncology (which is a separate field). And, of course, there is pediatric heme/onc, which is arrived from general peds.

The subspecialties are listed under internal medicine because almost all of those fellowship programs will ONLY accept people who have completed an IM residency. They're closed to anyone from any other field.

 

[87138]

.

I mean, do you have an issue when a cardiology fellow uses the word "cards" to describe what field s/he is pursuing? Or is it just when med students use that word?

Yup, I just used the MSI example to further illustrate a peripheral point. Regardless of who uses it, "cards" is still like nails on a chalkboard to me.

Maybe I'll change my tune in two years when I'm worrying about the NRMP, but for now rads/gas/cards just sound wrong to me.

 

[Terpskins99]

This year, both rads and ophtho had a step 1 avg of 235, though you're right that historically ophtho has been a few points lower.

Here is what I found, with the caveat being that the latest data I could find for radiology is 2007 and I have the 2009 ophtho data.

The numbers have been increasing across the board every year, and this year was no exception. You really can't compare 2007 numbers for one specialty with 2009 of another specialty. I wouldn't be surprised if Rads matched USMLE Step 1 average is 240 for 2009.

It's so annoying how many sub-specialties fall under Internal Medicine. How OB/GYN has it's own track and Oncology always falls under the domain of Internal Medicine in terms of being a sub-specialty of Internal Medicine, and even for the purpose of these types of rating-things (versus the likes of, say, Urology) seems nearly arbitrary to me.

Well, it has to do with the perceived need for training. Ob/gyn and urology are surgical subspecialties. It doesn't make much sense for them to devote so much time learning how to manage sepsis, pneumonia or diabetes.

However, those medical issues are typically encountered and handled by all IM subspecialties... hence the need for them to complete a formal internal medicine residency.

There are rumors that some of the subspecialties will attempt to branch off and form their own residency (e.g. cardiology); or at least have a fast-track program so they don't need to complete all 3 years of IM. But I wouldn't expect it to be common-place anytime soon.

 

[LucidSplash]

As much as I hate to be in opposition to any UMDer, I have to agree with pretty much everything smq123 has said up to this point in this thread.

RW, it may have sounded pretentious at the beginning of MSI, but you're just a week or so away from being 25% done with medical school. You can comfortably use the standard jargon now. You're not a newbie anymore.

 

[87138]

As much as I hate to be in opposition to any UMDer, I have to agree with pretty much everything smq123 has said up to this point in this thread.

RW, it may have sounded pretentious at the beginning of MSI, but you're just a week or so away from being 25% done with medical school. You can comfortably use the standard jargon now. You're not a newbie anymore.

Haha, I've been around the jargon for several years before medical school, but like I said, a very select few still get on my nerves. I guess if I end up in Anesthesiology, Radiology, or Cardiology I can just bite the bullet.

And it's about two weeks, unfortunately.

 

[Anthony Hartsoc]

I love kids, so I'd like to do a peds specialty eventually -- maybe in psychiatry, EM, or ID. Psych and EM residencies are supposedly easier on the hours than peds residencies so I might choose one of those. I'm also interested in dermatology -- I've been reading derm research since before I was even considering med school for my own use -- but I'm not sure I'll want to jump through the hoops (research, etc) required to get into a ROAD specialty.

Dealing with the kids is the easy part...the parents are where the trouble comes in...if you want to work in the EMD or PICU be prepared for a fair share of abuse cases...

 

[parafilm]

Dealing with the kids is the easy part...the parents are where the trouble comes in

Exactly why I wouldn't want to be a pediatrician. Parents are crazy.

 

[Terpskins99]

As much as I hate to be in opposition to any UMDer, I have to agree with pretty much everything smq123 has said up to this point in this thread.

Traitor!

 

[JimBeezie]

Based upon my research into the different specialties, as well as talking with residents in each field (I also rotated in ENT and Ophtho as a medical student). Plus, I have simply encountered many more med students interested in Ortho/ENT than I have ophtho. I guarantee that Ortho and especially ENT are considerably more difficult to land than ophthalmology. Outside of plastic surgery, ENT is the most difficult surgical residency to land. The board scores you need even to be considered for that field is insane. Ophtho... still very competitive, but not at the level of the other two.

I figured that's where you were gathering your information. Look I don't mean to be a hardass, but you can't take anecdotes, heresay, and your own experience so seriously.

And you should be careful when you use phrases such as "much more" and infinitely more competitive. You wouldn't tell a patient that Motrin had infinitely more side effects compared to Tylenol, now would you? Like I said, if you're good enough to match into ophtho, you are most likely good enough to match into ENT and ortho, and vise versa. This is probably even more true if you are good enough to match into a top ophtho program, in which case you are probably good enough to match into anything.

And no, average Step 1 score is not a good way to determine competitiveness. It's simply one part of the application and IT'S ONLY AN AVERAGE. If you want to talk competitiveness, as the 2 med students who match at Duke's preliminary internal medicine year how they did it. Doesn't sound like it should be that competitive does it? I didn't think so either. Until I heard that they the year I was applying for ophtho, they had received >2000 applications for their 2 (TWO) prelim-IM spots. I wonder what the scores of those who matched was? I'd be willing to bet the average was between 220 and 240, and not in the 270s. Why? Because that's where ALL averages are.

 

[Terpskins99]

I figured that's where you were gathering your information. Look I don't mean to be a hardass, but you can't take anecdotes, heresay, and your own experience so seriously.

Ironic, since that is exactly what you're doing now.

Like I said, if you're good enough to match into ophtho, you are most likely good enough to match into ENT and ortho, and vise versa. This is probably even more true if you are good enough to match into a top ophtho program, in which case you are probably good enough to match into anything.

Go into the ENT and ortho forums and ask them if the average accepted ophtho candidate would "probably" be able to get into the average ENT or orhtho program.

Your argument about "top ophtho"-candidates is absurd. Someone good enough to get into CHOP for pediatrics would be a strong enough to get into any other specialty too. Are you going to claim that pediatrics is just as competitive as any other field now? Please.

 

[JimBeezie]

Ironic, since that is exactly what you're doing now.


Go into the ENT and ortho forums and ask them if the average accepted ophtho candidate would "probably" be able to get into the average ENT or orhtho program.

Your argument about "top ophtho"-candidates is absurd. Someone good enough to get into CHOP for pediatrics would be a strong enough to get into any other specialty too. Are you going to claim that pediatrics is just as competitive as any other field now? Please.

Thank you for setting me straight. ENT and ortho are in fact infinitely more competitive than ophtho. And also thank you for pointing out that if I want the definitive truth on the matter, all I need to do is ask any ENT or orthopod (especially the ones on SDN) for their opinion, which I can take as fact and totally neglect that although they probably did not also apply for ophtho, that they can accurately say that ENT or orhtho are infinitely more competitive than ophtho based on their own experiences (which is worth an infinite amount of years).

Google is infinitely better than Yahoo. Harvard is infinitely better than Hopkins. And you are clearly infinitely smarter than me. And SDN is always accurate to infinite. This is infinitely brilliant!

 

[Khazmo]

I picked Pathology, Anesthesiology, General Surgery, and Internal Medicine. I'm interested in too many things.. D: