Which schools are mid vs low tier?

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Eagle529

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People often refer to the WedgeDawg rating system for school tiers. There is the state school category and low yield category in addition to the top, high, mid and low. Where do state schools and low yield category schools fall in the overall hierarchy? I'm interested in defining tier ranks as ability to place into more competitive specialties or move around the country for residency.

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I'm also interested in this with the new panic around P/F step one and how prestige will matter now. I have an acceptance at Albany Med which is "unranked" and "low yield" but matches people at top programs every year according to match lists, so the rankings always seemed a little off to me. Now with the panic around rank I'm wondering if I should write a letter of intent to a "higher ranked" school that I am waitlisted at but that I didn't love as much to be on the safe side of the rank game. I'm interested how older established "low yield" schools rank in the minds of PDs.
 
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I'm also interested in this with the new panic around P/F step one and how prestige will matter now. I have an acceptance at Albany Med which is "unranked" and "low yield" but matches people at top programs every year according to match lists, so the rankings always seemed a little off to me. Now with the panic around rank I'm wondering if I should write a letter of intent to a "higher ranked" school that I am waitlisted at but that I didn't love as much to be on the safe side of the rank game. I'm interested how older established "low yield" schools rank in the minds of PDs.

I feel the same way about NYMC. Honestly, they're great programs with good match lists; I don't see why they're ranked so low.
 
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It becomes a cycle: schools take students who have lower grades and scores compared with those admitted to the T10 schools, those students as a group, score lower on Step 1 than students who had, on average, much higher MCAT scores, residencies select based on Step scores and so the cycle continues. With Step 1 going pass/fail, we may break that cycle. However, I do not believe that pedigree alone will be used as a proxy for good Step scores.

Do keep in mind that your performance as an individual is a much more powerful predictor of where you'll go next than the average performance of your peer group. We see this all the time when we get applications from students who attended unranked state schools as a way to save money despite having admission offers at more prestigious private schools.

Also keep in mind that some schools are selecting applicants who want to go into primary care/rural medicine and they consider it a huge success to have 80-90% of the class match in family medicine, pediatrics or a similar primary care residency. So, if a list does not look "competitive" it may be the selection bias of the school's admissions committee that has a preference for applicants who want to be primary care providers.
 
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I feel the same way about NYMC. Honestly, they're great programs with good match lists; I don't see why they're ranked so low.
Would you put NYMC above NYU, Icahn, Cornell, Einstein, Rochester, SUNY and Albany? Those schools are either T20s, regional powerhouses, or backed by the state. Another food for thought question, which medical schools in the NE would you prefer NYMC over? That’s why
 
It becomes a cycle: schools take students who have lower grades and scores compared with those admitted to the T10 schools, those students as a group, score lower on Step 1 than students who had, on average, much higher MCAT scores, residencies select based on Step scores and so the cycle continues. With Step 1 going pass/fail, we may break that cycle. However, I do not believe that pedigree alone will be used as a proxy for good Step scores.

Do keep in mind that your performance as an individual is a much more powerful predictor of where you'll go next than the average performance of your peer group. We see this all the time when we get applications from students who attended unranked state schools as a way to save money despite having admission offers at more prestigious private schools.

Also keep in mind that some schools are selecting applicants who want to go into primary care/rural medicine and they consider it a huge success to have 80-90% of the class match in family medicine, pediatrics or a similar primary care residency. So, if a list does not look "competitive" it may be the selection bias of the school's admissions committee that has a preference for applicants who want to be primary care providers.

With many medical schools employing P/F grading, what will be used as proxies for Step 1 scores?
 
The question isnt which schools you would prefer: it is which schools will prefer you. Applicants need to apply to schools that fit their stats, evidence of their mission, etc. Dont put the cart before the horse. And remember 60% of applicants will get no acceptances and another 20% will get a single acceptance. So getting into A school and therefore getting into A residency and becoming A physician matters more. Also, when you start medical school, you have no idea what speciality you will ultimately match in, so no matter what your plans are, so do understand you can wind up in an FP or IM program in the midwest.
Not sure why you responded to me because what you said is obvious but ok. I was simply trying to point out the fact that if NYMC is the lowest rank in a state with numerous schools, it only makes sense that it’s ranking will reflect that.
 
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I really despise the idea of Tiers, because in any given tier there are multiple schools that can fit the bill depending upon how you define high medium or low. For example in the top twenty, there are at least 30 schools.

And if you ask 10 people has to who is in this group, you will get 11 different answers.

The concept of tiers comes from u.s. News & World Report rankings, which are bogus . The only people that care about them are pre-meds and medical school Deans.

What constitutes a top school? Extramural grants? Number of Nobel laureates on the faculty? High MCAT and GPA averages? Total number of Faculty? Number of graduates going into the Uber residencies? Name recognition?

I submit that instead of tiers there are classes of schools, analogous to the US Navy having battleship and Cruiser classes.

My rough rule of thumb, which is mostly based upon median stats of the matriculating class.

Harvard / Stanford class

Keck / Einstein / Emory class

Tufts / Wake / Miami class

Drexel / Albany class

TX Schools are in a completely separate class by themselves
 
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Would you put NYMC above NYU, Icahn, Cornell, Einstein, Rochester, SUNY and Albany? Those schools are either T20s, regional powerhouses, or backed by the state. Another food for thought question, which medical schools in the NE would you prefer NYMC over? That’s why

I'd say that most schools wouldn't be "ranked" over NYU, Icahn, Columbia, and Cornell. That's like saying Temple isn't a good school because you wouldn't "rank" it over Penn and Jefferson, or like BU isn't a good school because you wouldn't "rank" it over Harvard. I'd say that in terms of stats and student opportunity, as someone who's looked into the school and its matches/opportunities, it's closer to the Tufts/Wake/Miami class that Goro mentioned. In fact, if it was located in a state more similar to NC, it likely would have the same recognition. And I certainly wouldn't classify it in the bottom 10 of all US MD programs, as many on SDN suggest.
 
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I'd say that most schools wouldn't be "ranked" over NYU, Icahn, Columbia, and Cornell. That's like saying Temple isn't a good school because you wouldn't "rank" it over Penn and Jefferson, or like BU isn't a good school because you wouldn't "rank" it over Harvard. I'd say that in terms of stats and student opportunity, as someone who's looked into the school and its matches/opportunities, it's closer to the Tufts/Wake/Miami class that Goro mentioned. In fact, if it was located in a state more similar to NC, it likely would have the same recognition. And I certainly wouldn't classify it in the bottom 10 of all US MD programs, as many on SDN suggest.
That’s the thing, there’s more to school rankings than stats and that probably explains the disparity a bit. Being overshadowed by other local schools isn’t as simple as oh there’s other schools in the area. Think of it as there’s more competition for the affiliated medical centers for patients and that can make a difference. UW, Mayo, and Wash U are good examples of this as they practically own the Northwest, upper and lower Midwestern regions respectively and thus are all top schools. Temple, Albany, NYMC etc are good schools in crowded areas which means less opportunities as an institution and thus lower ranks. If I were you I’d try not to get caught up with the rankings. It’s a headache and there’s not much to be gained by it. Hope this helps
 
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LizzyM pointed out so very well, some excellent students attend these "Lower tier" schools by choice due to location, cost, schools for children, etc. It is far more dependent on what the student achieves as a medical student than where they earned their medical degree IMO. Pre meds might spend more time honing their study skills and take more challenging classes in preparation for starting medical school if they have their eye on those competetive upper tier specialties and residencies. Look at the resident rosters at the " Upper Tier" programs and you will see residents from mid and lower tier programs. This indicates to me that the person and the app they prepare is just as important as school name, maybe more.
 
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If Step 2 just replaces Step 1, what’s up with people claiming that school pedigree will gain more significance than it already possesses?
When you lose data points, the remaining points take on greater significance.
 
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This is what I figure will happen. A simple shift of emphasis from Step 1 to Step 2. I see this prediction a lot, but I also see a lot of people saying that school pedigree will matter more because of Step 1 P/F, and I can’t reconcile this. If Step 2 just replaces Step 1, what’s up with people claiming that school pedigree will gain more significance than it already possesses?
A lot of premeds and preclinical med students were just projecting their fears.
 
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With the understanding that ranks don't mean a whole lot, I want to use the WedgeDawg system as guidance to build a school-list somewhat strategically. How might I categorize schools that aren't on the guide?
 
When you lose data points, the remaining points take on greater significance.
Sorry to single you out , I'd appreciate other perspectives as well. I had an M3 friend suggest that schools may also remove their P/F curriculum for the first 2 years with step going P/F. Do you see this as a possibility? His reasoning was that residencies will need a metric to judge someone's performance in the first 2 years.
 
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With the understanding that ranks don't mean a whole lot, I want to use the WedgeDawg system as guidance to build a school-list somewhat strategically. How might I categorize schools that aren't on the guide?
It doesn't matter, because the system doesn't distinguish between categories 4 and 5, and categories 6 and 7 are specifically defined.

The purpose of the system is not to rank schools, but, rather to use relative tier of school to help you build a realistic application list. To this end, the system treats state schools that are not otherwise in a higher tier the same as low tier schools. For the purpose of the system, any school not otherwise categorized is "low," which is just above low yield and DO schools. Hope this helps!!!
 
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People often refer to the WedgeDawg rating system for school tiers. There is the state school category and low yield category in addition to the top, high, mid and low. Where do state schools and low yield category schools fall in the overall hierarchy? I'm interested in defining tier ranks as ability to place into more competitive specialties or move around the country for residency.

Yawn.
 
It doesn't matter, because the system doesn't distinguish between categories 4 and 5, and categories 6 and 7 are specifically defined.

The purpose of the system is not to rank schools, but, rather to use relative tier of school to help you build a realistic application list. To this end, the system treats state schools that are not otherwise in a higher tier the same as low tier schools. For the purpose of the system, any school not otherwise categorized is "low," which is just above low yield and DO schools. Hope this helps!!!

Yes that makes a lot of sense. Thank you!
 
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DO NOT write a letter of intent to a school that you did not like as much. Seriously, you want to have the best experience possible. If you like where you are, you will do well. If you are miserable, it will not be worth it!
 
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I really despise the idea of Tiers, because in any given tier there are multiple schools that can fit the bill depending upon how you define high medium or low. For example in the top twenty, there are at least 30 schools.

And if you ask 10 people has to who is in this group, you will get 11 different answers.

The concept of tiers comes from u.s. News & World Report rankings, which are bogus . The only people that care about them are pre-meds and medical school Deans.

What constitutes a top school? Extramural grants? Number of Nobel laureates on the faculty? High MCAT and GPA averages? Total number of Faculty? Number of graduates going into the Uber residencies? Name recognition?

I submit that instead of tiers there are classes of schools, analogous to the US Navy having battleship and Cruiser classes.

My rough rule of thumb, which is mostly based upon median stats of the matriculating class.

Harvard / Stanford class

Keck / Einstein / Emory class

Tufts / Wake / Miami class

Drexel / Albany class

TX Schools are in a completely separate class by themselves

Where in your ranking list would state schools fall? 3rd group?
 
Where in your ranking list would state schools fall? 3rd group?
So heterogeneous a group that I Normally don't put them in any classes.

But U VA and U MI I typically put into Harvard/Stanford class. U Cincy and OH State into Einstein/Emory class.

VCU/EVMS into Drexel/Albany class.

Lucky state schools that only take their own residents fall into individual classes.

My groupings are like USN battleship and cruiser classes.
 
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So heterogeneous a group that I Normally don't put them in any classes.

But U VA and U MI I typically put into Harvard/Stanford class. U Cincy and OH State into Einstein/Emory class.

VCU/EVMS into Drexel/Albany class.

Lucky state schools that only take their own residents fall into individual classes.

My groupings are like USN battleship and cruiser classes.
[/QUOT]

Where would places like St. George’s, trinity, duke-bus, and sackler rank?

Where would places like St. George’s, trinity, duke-bus, and sackler rank?
 
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Carib schools???? Any one of these:
Not to try to educate the great @Goro, to whom I will always be grateful for educating me to the point where I actually know a few things :), but they are not all crap, or Caribbean. Sackler is actually a pretty well regarded school in Israel that is registered in and accredited by NY State, and the Duke school is a Singapore school affiliated with our very own, prestigious Duke, so it's probably safe to assume it's not a scam, although it's also probably safe to assume it's not open to US candidates. ("Candidates with the option of enrolling into a highly academic graduate entry medical school in their home countries or elsewhere should have valid reasons for attending Duke-NUS and/or living in Singapore. Singapore has a limited number of positions in its medical schools, each of which is valued and intended to educate physicians who plan to serve the country. We are fortunate to have many such qualified international students, as exemplified by our diverse student body representing over 28 countries.")

I didn't have the nerve to answer for you, but the answer is probably that foreign schools are not included in any of our tiers because, in general, they are not better for the vast majority of US candidates than any US based school. Does that work??
 
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Sorry to single you out , I'd appreciate other perspectives as well. I had an M3 friend suggest that schools may also remove their P/F curriculum for the first 2 years with step going P/F. Do you see this as a possibility? His reasoning was that residencies will need a metric to judge someone's performance in the first 2 years.
I doubt it.
 
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