Which schools favor high MCAT over GPA?

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Vihsadas

Vihsadas

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(I used the search function and could not locate this topic. If it exists, my apologies, and moderators, please feel free to delete this thread and PM with a link in the right direction.)

Hi all. I guess I'm a non-trad with a low GPA (sharp upward trend in my hardest and most recent year, and my post-bacc year will be near 4.0).
My low GPA comes from the fact that I've been in school for 6 years, and I had no clue what I wanted to do with my life back when I was a kid. I Started at McGill University Conservatory of Music on the B.Mus path in Music Theory and Voice for two years then switched to the science path; started over and completed a joint major in Physics and Physiology (Boy, was that the wrong degree choice for medical school. The joint program at McGill is HARD). I have crap grades: one fail with a retake with an 'A' - Advanced Calculus, and yearly GPAs of 3.0 to 3.3 up until my last year where I made the definitive choice to do whatever it took to get to medical school and got a 3.8 overall in all upper level physics, physiology and engineering courses (30 credits). my BCMP and overall AMCAS GPAs are 3.29 and 3.31 respectively.

I worked my ass off this summer for the MCAT and hoped (read: dreamed) of a 40...and actually ended up getting it:
15-PS 11-VR 14-BS S-WS, total: 40S

I'm now 24, doing a post-bacc to complete some medical prereqs such as Biochemistry, English, Stats, Psychology etc...I know that I need extra currics and research experience (I have a decent amount) along with volunteer experience (I am getting clincal exp)

With a polarized GPA/MCAT app like mine I feel like I need to target schools who prioritize high MCAT students.
So in short, is there any reliable information about which medical schools favor the MCAT over GPA?
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If you had good ECs (especially research) I think your app would be pretty competitive at many schools. If you apply broadly, I'd guess you'd get some mid-level interest and some from lower tier schools. What is your state of residence?
 
Short answer: no, there's no reliable info. Depending on which journal article you read, GPA is the stronger correlate with board scores, or MCAT verbal is. I think the average adcom would say that GPA is about work ethic, and MCAT is about testing skills. No matter what, a 40S is going to get you attention.

You can collect anecdotes from mdapplicants.com, if that helps you sleep.

You can also take undergrad classes forever to get up over a 3.5. But personally I'd aim to win the eyeball round vs. the autoscreen, instead.

Best of luck to you.
 
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drizzt3117 said:
If you had good ECs (especially research) I think your app would be pretty competitive at many schools. If you apply broadly, I'd guess you'd get some mid-level interest and some from lower tier schools. What is your state of residence?
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Unfortunately, GA. Further unfortunately, I'm not just in medicine for the profession and the job securtiy. I do not see myself as one of those docs that only applies the collective knowledge to help others (though, there is absolutely nothing wrong with that). I am a future doctor who wants to work in a fast-paced academic field, that allows me to care for people on a personal level, while affording the opportunity to contribute academically for the field.
I am a practitioner scientist at heart. I want to make solid contributions while being a practitioner...so the state schools in Georgia are not appealing. Emory is...but then again, it's emory. :p
In reality, if it was feasible, I would have applied to MSTP programs, however I know that I would not be competitive. But in reality, getting an MD to practice medicine and also participate in academia is just as viable. One does not need an MD/PhD to be a respected practitioner scientist.

So for that reason if I do not get lucky at the top tier schools I applied to this year (or McGill), I will apply very, very broadly next year and hope that an earlier application, one year of high grade science post-baccs and extra volunteer hours/research will help at the larger, research viable schools.

DrMidlife said:
Short answer: no, there's no reliable info. Depending on which journal article you read, GPA is the stronger correlate with board scores, or MCAT verbal is. I think the average adcom would say that GPA is about work ethic, and MCAT is about testing skills. No matter what, a 40S is going to get you attention.

You can collect anecdotes from mdapplicants.com, if that helps you sleep.

You can also take undergrad classes forever to get up over a 3.5. But personally I'd aim to win the eyeball round vs. the autoscreen, instead.

Best of luck to you.
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Hah, unfortunately, I have a ridiculous number of credits under my belt, so raising my GPA to 3.5 is more or less infeasible. I'd probably need 2.5 years of 4.0 grades.
In general, I agree with your post. I was not planning to apply this year, however when I received confirmation that my MCAT score was high, I sent out my AMCAS just before the Oct. 15th deadline. Because I see myself an academic practitioner I did not take a chance and apply to lower tier schools or primarily primary practice schools this year. If I got into a lower tier school and had to fight my way up to get good research experience, perhaps next year I would have been wondering what could have happened if I had applied broadly for 2009 and earlier.
So there is no real information as to which schools are MCAT heavy in their admissions?

Thanks for the advice.
 
I think they're both equally important but I also think that what the schools want to see is that you worked harder and became more dedicated in your work now compared to the past.

You just have to do very well with your studies now and make sure your grades stay up.

God bless you! :)
 
My MSTP housemate (now faculty at a v. prestigious univ.) says it doesn't matter where you go to med school.

For what that's worth, you should apply to every darned school that has MSTP. As in, Rosalind Franklin, USC, all of 'em. Arkansas admitted 14 MSTPs in '06. Tulane had 15.

If the MSAR is correct, that is.
 
Honestly, you should just apply broadly, and see what happens. There are some schools that seem to favor MCAT over GPA but all the info on that is really anecdotal and isn't really going to be that useful. Pick 30-40 schools that you like, include your state schools and some low tier schools in that list, and go to town.
 
Great MCAT, but I think top-tier schools are a dream with your GPA. It doesn't hurt to apply to some, but you need to apply broadly and hope for the best. It really doesn't matter as much as some people think where you go to school. Your education depends more on your individual effort.

If you really want a top-tier you probably need an SMP or a full-blown masters before you have an outside shot. You really need something special, besides a nice MCAT, for one of these schools to take you with a low GPA. Remember, if they take someone with a lower GPA, it will bring down the average GPA of accepted students. I know that some schools look very closely at those numbers.

My advice, pick about 20 mid to low tier schools that you would enjoy. Apply to them all next cycle and then start med school in 2009.

With the amount of coursework that you would need before your GPA is competitive for a top-tier, your MCAT would probably no longer be valid. Think about that as well in your decision.
 
Of course its a dream I'll get accepted to a top tier school. It was a dream I'd get a 40 on the MCAT. :)
However, like I said, 2009 is my real target year, even though I know that if I was going next year I'd excel. The next app cycle I'm going to be MUCH more broad than this one, and will probably apply to 15-20 schools

Any other ideas?
 
I didn't mean to come off like it's impossible for you to get into a top-tier. If it's something you really want, just make sure you know what you are up against. I just wouldn't want you to only apply to top-tier, possibly not get in, and then have to reapply in the next cycle.

It won't hurt to apply to as many highly competitive schools as you want, just make sure you have 10-15 schools that are more realistic as well.

I actually hate the term top-tier but it's easiest to use it because everyone knows what you are talking about.

BTW - My Bachelor's is in Music, so I know what it's like to jump all around.
 
I think you should be targeting more like 30-40 schools...
 
gman33 said:
I didn't mean to come off like it's impossible for you to get into a top-tier. If it's something you really want, just make sure you know what you are up against. I just wouldn't want you to only apply to top-tier, possibly not get in, and then have to reapply in the next cycle.

It won't hurt to apply to as many highly competitive schools as you want, just make sure you have 10-15 schools that are more realistic as well.

I actually hate the term top-tier but it's easiest to use it because everyone knows what you are talking about.

BTW - My Bachelor's is in Music, so I know what it's like to jump all around.
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Oh it's cool. I totally didn't take it that way, and yes, I'm completely realistic. I don't expect much response from the more recognizable schools, but you never know. I have a pretty unrealistic app this year, with 19 american schools, 9-10 throwaway schools (i.e. 'dream' schools that I don't expect much response from), and McGill.
We'll see how it pans out.

drizzt3117 said:
I think you should be targeting more like 30-40 schools...
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30-40 schools? What? That ludicrous...
 
Vihsadas said:
30-40 schools? What? That ludicrous...
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I'm up to 44, including DO, and I'm no anomaly. I have a 3.1, a 31O, and strong ECs and LORs. There's maybe $10,000 difference between minimally applying (<10 schools) and heavily applying (>25 schools); that's $10,000 well spent vs. reapplication and credential beef-up, and it's not much money when you think about the average med student debt (>$150k) and the average physician salary (>$150k).

42,300 people applied to med school last year, and 17,800 got in. Those are very, very crappy odds for me and my very, very crappy GPA.

If I don't get in this year, the next step is an SMP, and that's $50,000, easily.
 
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DrMidlife said:
I'm up to 44, including DO, and I'm no anomaly. I have a 3.1, a 31O, and strong ECs and LORs. There's maybe $10,000 difference between minimally applying (<10 schools) and heavily applying (>25 schools); that's $10,000 well spent vs. reapplication and credential beef-up, and it's not much money when you think about the average med student debt (>$150k) and the average physician salary (>$150k).

42,300 people applied to med school last year, and 17,800 got in. Those are very, very crappy odds for me and my very, very crappy GPA.

If I don't get in this year, the next step is an SMP, and that's $50,000, easily.
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I suppose you're right. If you want this, you have to really want it. Before my MCAT, I was determined to make it happen, and was planning to go SMP, ireland or carribean to make it happen. I figure there's no point in changing my plans, and might as well apply to an SMP for the coming year anyway. Might as well, right?
 
I dont think a SMP is really that necessary w/ your profile. If you applied to 30-40 schools, I would guess you would get a couple acceptances. If you did a SMP, by the time you applied, you wouldnt yet have any grade info anyways unless you wanted to wait for 2010 entrance.
 
Vihsadas said:
I suppose you're right. If you want this, you have to really want it. Before my MCAT, I was determined to make it happen, and was planning to go SMP, ireland or carribean to make it happen. I figure there's no point in changing my plans, and might as well apply to an SMP for the coming year anyway. Might as well, right?
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Holy cow, your mdapps says you need to GO FOR IT. GO FOR IT HARD. NOW. This time next year you'll be in med school.

You're going to be insanely popular at interviews, and you're going to have multiple acceptances. Add 15 more schools and go nuts. Buy a good suit, get it tailored, and do at least a half dozen mock interviews.

Add UWash for MSTP and be ready to sing and do Capoeira at your interview.

Damn, when it's this clear it just makes me happy.
 
Obviously, MCAT scores and GPA are important, but they aren't everything. If they were there would be no reason for interviews.

Your GPA is not that low. Avg. GPA is around 3.6. If you take into account all the overachieving premeds out there who have 4.0s, anything above a 3.2 (with your MCAT score) is generally going to get you a secondary. Being an interested well rounded person will get you an interview.

If you are really serious about doing the MD/PhD thing take another year or two off and work full time as a lab tech doing research at a University. Your application will be a lot more competitive if you get some experience and publications under your belt.
 
foster033 said:
Your GPA is not that low. Avg. GPA is around 3.6. If you take into account all the overachieving premeds out there who have 4.0s, anything above a 3.2 (with your MCAT score) is generally going to get you a secondary. Being an interested well rounded person will get you an interview.
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Agree. A 3.3/40 ought to get you some interviews if the rest of your application is adequate. Make sure you don't neglect the non-numeric portions of the application -- they are actually quite important. Folks tend to dwell on the numbers on SDN because the rest is less objective. But you can have perfect numbers but without good clinical experience, solid LORs, strong essays, and good interviewing skills you won't be going to med school.
 
Ice Nine said:
Disagree. Publications are not necessarily a good correlate of MSTP admissions, and I wouldn't recommend putting your application off. You are initially correct in that you don't need a PhD to become a physician scientist. Those programs really exist only for prestige/free tuition purposes. In the end, you'd be trading several years of now-dropping physician salary for a degree that won't necessarily help you get where you want to be.

Also, you don't need to apply to 40 schools. For the student with the 31O above, you would have been taken early at my state school with residency, and I live where there is only one school--open and shut case. Look at the MSAR, and don't waste your time with public universities that don't take oos applicants seriously unless there are just a few that really interest you. At least a quarter of the schools in the US probably would take you based on MCAT alone in the absence of some glaring irregularity in your application. You've proven that you have mastered the pre-requisites with your MCAT score--go ahead and apply to about ten or so reasonable programs. I'd be quite surprised if you didn't get at least 3 bites.
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Can you quote a specific study saying publications do not correlate with md/phd acceptance? If there is one, I can't find it. Just curious how that would not help you since the main requirement of getting into md/phd programs is generally extensive research experience, and publications usually follow research experience.

Also, what are you reasons against taking time off...many, in fact most people now take at least a year off between undergrad and med school. It's a way to make your application that much stronger and would definately benifit someone whose GPA is a little on the low side. Also, you'll usually get a little forgiveness on your GPA if you have more relevent real world experience, especially if that experience is in a lab and your ultimate goal is research.

You seem to be misinformed about the reason for md/phd programs to exsit. While I agree that it is a good way to get school paid for and can be very prestigious, the programs are designed for people who want to do research and practice medicine.

While it's possible to do reserach with only an MD (in fact, my PI only has an MD), it's extremely difficult to get funding from the NIH and other places, without a PhD. When faced with two similar grant applications, they will always choose to give money to the PhD.

It is also much harder to get the research experience and training necessary to properly run a lab with just an MD, since they don't teach you that in med school. You'd have to do a postdoc fellowship to gain those skills, instead of or in addition to a clinical fellowship. Going this route would take just about the same amount of time and would be much more expensive.

An md/phd will get you exactly where you want to be if your goal is to be a physican scientist
 
Vihsadas, I assume that if you went to McGill you live in Canada?

School that favours MCAT over GPA = University of Manitoba

If you have been in a health care profession prior to application, they weigh even less on your GPA and focus the difference on the personal interview.
 
I don't think that's true as he has a state of residence for AMCAS...
 
Vihsadas said:
It is true. I'm a perm resident of the US (Been a resident since 1992), and born citizen of Canada.
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Ah... so you can apply to US and Canadian schools as residents? Hmm...
 
drizzt3117 said:
Ah... so you can apply to US and Canadian schools as residents? Hmm...
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Unforutnatley, not really. In canada the system is a tiny bit different than the US. Canadian schools on the whole prioritize residents of their respective provinces MUCH more than most US schools. For instance, at McGill, if you are an out of province student and you have anything lower than a 3.7 and 35+ MCAT, you're probably not even going to get an interview. There are only 10 spots for out of province students.

At most other schools that prioritize their residents (All the schools except 3 I think), there is even a GPA cutoff if you are out of province. In spite of my 40MCAT, I will be automatically disqualified at many schools because of my GPA, such as University of Calgary, and Dalhousie, which have out of province GPA cutoffs of 3.7.

Also, the schools that don't prioritize out of province students heavily: University of Toronto, McMaster, Queens, all have ridiculously high entrance averages where it would be prohibitive for me to apply to those schools.

In short, my Quebec residency gives me a chance at McGill, but in terms of canada, that's about it. I didn't apply anywhere else in Canada because I probably didn't have a chance.

Canadian Medical Schools are just plain and simple harder to get into. It's not that the schools are better, and I can't really think of a good reason why since there are less people per medical in Canada than in the US...maybe more people per capita in Canada go to University, not sure.

U manitoba is an anomaly because of how heavily they prioritize the MCAT. I didn't realize this before application season or I might have applied.

So yeah I don't really have much of a chance in Canada, but in the US I have a decent shot.
 
Vihsadas said:
Canadian Medical Schools are just plain and simple harder to get into.

So yeah I don't really have much of a chance in Canada, but in the US I have a decent shot.
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Wow. It looks like we share very similar points on getting into medical school. I've looked over Canada and US schools and I have to say that I stand a much better chance in the US than I do in canada, save for the University of Manitoba. I hate this school and will have 2 degrees from them next year, so I have zero inclination to go for a 3rd degree from them.
 
Yeah, I heard U of T was the most difficult medical school to get into in the world.
 
SN2BexpAt said:
Wow. It looks like we share very similar points on getting into medical school. I've looked over Canada and US schools and I have to say that I stand a much better chance in the US than I do in canada, save for the University of Manitoba. I hate this school and will have 2 degrees from them next year, so I have zero inclination to go for a 3rd degree from them.
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are you a current u manitoba student?
 
Anyways, we now have more anedoctal evidence about CW's propensity to look at MCAT over GPA :) Congrats Maxprime!
 
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