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- Thread starter Perrotfish
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prior here, general rule of thumb, AF has best quality of life. After all, they are now complaining about their six month tours overseas. They seem to also complain about the staff SGT who chewed them out for forgetting their hat, so pick you battles.
Navy is SUPPOSEDLY getting away from GMO tours, I'm an M-2, so I can't speak to that. I wouldn't mind doing one, but I'm a minority. But I guess we have to pay for the best uniforms, just kidding (AF, how many people did you pick up on your bus route this morning, Army, how many building can you rapppel off with all that rope on your shoulder, I guess I should check my lucky charms). It's all moving towards one goat rope, so it doesn't really matter what service you choose I guess.
If you want to go EM/Surgery, I guess you are in the same boat as everybody else that wants to do it. I want to go primary care, which is underassessed, military and civilian, so I don't care.
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See my drunken rant on the thread "Active Military MD and Happy"
Advice #1 - don't join any service
Advice #2 - if you ignore #1, stay the hell away from the Air Force. The jealousy the other services feel for us is totally unfounded. You have better chances to actually get residency trained in the Army and Navy.
Advice #1 - don't join any service
Advice #2 - if you ignore #1, stay the hell away from the Air Force. The jealousy the other services feel for us is totally unfounded. You have better chances to actually get residency trained in the Army and Navy.
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I only did internship and was thrown straight into practice as a GMO flight doc. I'm still paying back my 4 years. I'm getting the hell out and going to civilian residency.
The only benefit of military residency is better pay while a resident, but this is quickly overshadowed by the terrible pay compared to a civilian attending once residency is over. The only way to draw military benefits is to do 20 years. If you do 19 years, 11 months, and 29 days you get jack s#it. It is unlikely that you will be doing a civilian residency after 20 years as a GMO. It is unlikely that after one tour as a GMO you would be willing to stay for a single day longer than you had to.
not sure if I'm really answering your question.
The only benefit of military residency is better pay while a resident, but this is quickly overshadowed by the terrible pay compared to a civilian attending once residency is over. The only way to draw military benefits is to do 20 years. If you do 19 years, 11 months, and 29 days you get jack s#it. It is unlikely that you will be doing a civilian residency after 20 years as a GMO. It is unlikely that after one tour as a GMO you would be willing to stay for a single day longer than you had to.
not sure if I'm really answering your question.
If you do the Financial Assistance Program, you won't have to worry about residency and training, because YOU choose them. Much of the negativity on this forum (and in real life) stems from people being forced into fields/places not of their choice. There's nothing that unique about military residency programs. As an ortho resident, you might have the privilege to work with returning wounded, other than that... be the EM/orthopedic surgeon you want to be, get good training, come in with a positive attitude.
If you're really idealistic patriotic, as megadon suggests, go into primary care. It's sorely needed, and people who don't want to do it get shoved into it.
To specifically address ortho and EM for the AF...
The AF had 17 EM spots available this year. Only 5 were filled by graduating medical students. The rest were flight surgeons (perhaps other residency) or had a done a year of internship. The latter group won't exist anymore, as they too will have to do 2 years as a flight surgeon before reapplying for a residency. So be prepared to be a flight surgeon, be happy if you do succeed.
For ortho, there were around 26 spots, more than existed for categorical general surgery, filled by a majority of graduating med students. Put this into context, however. Most operative trauma in Iraq right now is ortho in nature. The military can be very near sighted at times, so there's a huge press for ortho. What will happen the year you graduate? Well, if we're not involved in a major conflict, you might have a lot of orthopedic surgeons with little to do. And when supply exceeds demand, you may be dealing with very few spots in the future.
If you want comments on quality of EM (i.e. low quality hearsay), feel free to PM.
If you're really idealistic patriotic, as megadon suggests, go into primary care. It's sorely needed, and people who don't want to do it get shoved into it.
To specifically address ortho and EM for the AF...
The AF had 17 EM spots available this year. Only 5 were filled by graduating medical students. The rest were flight surgeons (perhaps other residency) or had a done a year of internship. The latter group won't exist anymore, as they too will have to do 2 years as a flight surgeon before reapplying for a residency. So be prepared to be a flight surgeon, be happy if you do succeed.
For ortho, there were around 26 spots, more than existed for categorical general surgery, filled by a majority of graduating med students. Put this into context, however. Most operative trauma in Iraq right now is ortho in nature. The military can be very near sighted at times, so there's a huge press for ortho. What will happen the year you graduate? Well, if we're not involved in a major conflict, you might have a lot of orthopedic surgeons with little to do. And when supply exceeds demand, you may be dealing with very few spots in the future.
If you want comments on quality of EM (i.e. low quality hearsay), feel free to PM.
Well, that's just incorrect on your part as well. I'm Air Force and in a non-Primary Care field, about to start internship, and I have a 5+ year contract for general surgery. I'll never be a flight surgeon (if I so choose). In fact, many in the AF this year will train straight through in peds, orthopedics, internal med, etc. I can hook you up with them.
The AF does want more graduating students to become flight surgeons (they have a significant shortage). The most recent innovation is preventing anyone from doing a one year transitional, general surgery, or internal med intern year. It used to be, you could do your internship, then you could apply for whatever the next year. Now, if you get stuck with only one year, you're automatically a flight surgeon afterward.
I don't know the numbers for Navy, but I have them for the AF. My suspicion is that ships and Marines need physicians. Someone has to do it. And the Army has another method, sticking pediatric geneticists in GMO billets (though other branches may be guilty of sticking square pegs in round holes as well).
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For the AF, to find this out, you have tolook at the JSGME match list and find who was given civilain deferral for transitional year only. This means they either did not match into a residency or chose to do a GMO tour. I believe, for the past 3 years, the AF has a 20-25% "unmatch" rate. Please keep in mind that this does not include all of the current GMOs who applied but were still denied. It was mentioned above that of the 17 spots for ER, 5 were given to graduating med students. However, of these 5, how many hadf prior military service or graduated from USUHS? If you do not meet either categry, you are not likely to be among that "lucky" 5.
All of this is a moot point anyway. The needs of each service fluctuante widely from year to year. As an example, 2 friends from med school applied to Ortho but were denied the first time when there were only 10 or so positions available, but got it the following year when the number increased to about 20 or so.
...If you definitely want the residency of your chose, do not go into the military or if you are that patriotic and are set on it, do the FAP program AFTER you are already in residency. Among the 3 services, it is my opinion that it is easiest to get an Army residency.
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I would consider applying to more than 1 specialty as JSGME suicide. In the civilian match, there is no way for a program to know that you applied to another program unless they ask you directly. It is completely opposite in the military as a "Board" decides your fate past on a meaningless point system that seems too often to reward mediocrity over performance. Ways to improve your chances include research experience (including published papers), high class rank, great LORs from MILITARY physicians (In posiitons of high power preferable), good board scores, and that is about it other than professional organizations (Not sure how much difference this last one makes). But there is absolutely NO WAY (Let me repeat this, NO WAY!!!) to guarantee your residency choice. I was a very good candidate on paper (Including all controllable factors like published papers, good boards and rank) and I knew I would have matched at a top academic program, but the problems was my military experience was lacking (like most HPSP applicants). Like I said before, if you want your residency of choice, avoid military medicine until you already have a civilian residency. For most (but not all) specialties, it is infinitely easier to obtain a civilian residency (Since this is based on performance and stuff you can control). As for EVMS, this med school is not that expensive, so loans are absolutely doable. I actually went to ODU and I like the area. However, aside from shadowing physicians at Portsmouth, there really is nothing you could do to improve your application besides working hard in med school.
You can do a previous search regarding the FAP program. Most HPSP students will concur that looking back this program is far superior to that of HPSP.
Promotions occur when you graduate from med school (Become an O-3), then 6 years later of miltary service, you become an O-4. Keep in mind that whether you do a civilain or mitary residency, you will be paid as if you have 6 years of time in grade. I don't know if you can do a 6 year civilian residency/fellowship and then become an O-4 immediately when you start active duty. All of it is very confusing to me and I really don't care since I have every intention of leaving after my 4 years as a GMO (Flight Surgeon). The best people to ask are FAP partcipants as they will know the particulars about the program and promotion/pay policies.
Hope this helps.
Unfortunately, every number you have been given will be wrong by the time it counts for you. If you were to look at all the results from the past 5 years, they probably would not tell the future story.
The future is changing. The Navy and the Army have underrecruited for the past 3 years. Many Residency Review Committees are looking at the break in training as a big negative, so accredidations will be in jeopardy if they continue. This is being pushed back by the Line which is happy with GMOs.
Best guess, there will be more straight through training with changes in the overall numbers. Great students will still get the residency they want. Marginal students (at least for their specialty of choice) will be hurting.
The future is changing. The Navy and the Army have underrecruited for the past 3 years. Many Residency Review Committees are looking at the break in training as a big negative, so accredidations will be in jeopardy if they continue. This is being pushed back by the Line which is happy with GMOs.
Best guess, there will be more straight through training with changes in the overall numbers. Great students will still get the residency they want. Marginal students (at least for their specialty of choice) will be hurting.
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I really don't know if you are trying to say it is going to get better or worse, but that last line really bothered me about "marginal" students being in trouble and "great" students getting their residency of choice. Like I said earlier, most of the people at my AMP course were not there by choice (getting bypassed for Ortho, Anesthesia, Derm, Rads, Urology, list goes on) and I would not consider them "marginal" students. This system mostly awards people with prior military service over academic performance. An applicant with 240+ on their boards, top 10% of class, good LORs, and multiple publications are getting denied residencies because they are missing key points from military experience and they don't have the long commitment of USUHS. Maybe they are more likely to get their residency of choice after doing a GMO tour, but the people interested in the above residencies usually feel like they are in purgatory doing primary care, not to mention the fact that their knowledge base slowly slips away. Out of the 7 GMOs in my office (5 currently there, 2 on their way so I have not talked to them yet), 4 have had enough and will just serve their time as GMOs then leave to go into civilian residencies. Guess what, 3 of them already have residency positions waiting for them. However, they clearly were not up to military standards for residency training to be selected by the "all knowing" GME board. The funny thing is, despite my subpar/mediocre/marginal application (whatever you want to use), I'm glad it happened, because to be faced with a military residency is downright scary to me.
The fact is more military hospitals are shutting down inpatient services every year. I haven't seen any open in the past couple of years. Am I wrong? Something will have to give with military GME, especially if we stay with OIF/OEF for a couple of more years. The simple fact is we need operational docs, which means more docs will want to leave after their commitments are up and then the remaining docs (who are supposed to be the attendings in the residency programs) will be deployed more often. My prediction is that over the next coulple of years you will see a decrease in first the number of military GME slots (with increase in civilian deferments) followed then by an increase in number of applicants that can't go straight through residency and have to do a GMO tour.
You are certainly right about not knowing what the stats will be in the future, but if you look at the match rates a couple of years ago, not many were getting stuck with GMO tours, but since these stats have exploded. Mark my words, if you do Navy or AF and participate in the JSGME match over the next 2-3 years, do not be surprised when you get stuck with a GMO tour. I know, everybody was fed the same line of **** (96% get their first choice residency, the AF is phasing out flight surgeons with only 1 year GME traing, you will get your residency of choice if you do a GMO tour, etc.), but it looks like a lot of people are in line for a rude awakening.
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A couple of facts
1. The Army has more training programs and slots
2. The USN has a much greater need for GMO's -
3. HPSP enrollment is going down, I think like a 60% fill rate
4. About 50% of HPSP matriculants are now DO students, (who generally have lower GPA's, MCAT's, board pass rates ((Sorry DO's))
5. There is no talk that I know of reducing Army GME starts (residency slots)
6. Yes, civilian residencies are easier to get - assuming you can beat out the FMG from Bangladesh - who's vying for that residency in the Bronx or Detroit.
With factors 1-5 my take is that, a strong applicant in the Army who follows my advice below should hopefully get what they want.
Many if not most internships are now categorical, in other words you are preselected for Ortho, ENT whatever. That being said, unless someone bails from one of these preselect programs or gets fired, the GMO's really don't get much of a shot - especially for the high profile/competative specialties (so much for getting points for being a GMO). FP and IM are picking up some of the GMO's who were Ortho wannabes who never really had a shot either due to academic and intellectual challenges, or personality issues.
So the key is to get selected straight out of medical school.
How do you do this?
Beyond grades and some perhaps research,,, getting your face out there is key. GME is influenced by whether the program director knows you, and wants you (ranks you high on their order or merit list). If you are desirable to a program director and you are reasonably competative you will probably get selected. Human nature is to go with the guy/woman who has demonstrated excellence in person rather than on just on paper. Most directors try to go for a strong familiar face over the unknown.
If you are an unknown commodity, you might be at risk, even with a strong medical school transcript. Let's not forget that often the best clinicians and colleagues are often from the middle of their class - program directors know this. Common sense and clinical judgement in medicine are vastly superior to intellect alone.
USUHS has a leg up as they have more opportunity to do rotations at residency sites. They also all get an active duty residency thus decreasing those available to HPSP. An HPSP student should be able to make up the difference but it will entail, arranging an ADT to one of the sites and then kicking ***. I would recommend being strategic as if you aren't the best applicant consider this when choosing which program you lobby for.
I have definitely seen good people get screwed, but at least in my experience this is a minority.
Most (but not all) of the perpetual GMO's are there for a reason. Take this into account when reading posts from Bomberdoc and others. I don't know bomber doc (might be the best guy ever) but If were to judge him from his posts I would estimate that I wouldn't want him as a resident or coworker.
1. The Army has more training programs and slots
2. The USN has a much greater need for GMO's -
3. HPSP enrollment is going down, I think like a 60% fill rate
4. About 50% of HPSP matriculants are now DO students, (who generally have lower GPA's, MCAT's, board pass rates ((Sorry DO's))
5. There is no talk that I know of reducing Army GME starts (residency slots)
6. Yes, civilian residencies are easier to get - assuming you can beat out the FMG from Bangladesh - who's vying for that residency in the Bronx or Detroit.
With factors 1-5 my take is that, a strong applicant in the Army who follows my advice below should hopefully get what they want.
Many if not most internships are now categorical, in other words you are preselected for Ortho, ENT whatever. That being said, unless someone bails from one of these preselect programs or gets fired, the GMO's really don't get much of a shot - especially for the high profile/competative specialties (so much for getting points for being a GMO). FP and IM are picking up some of the GMO's who were Ortho wannabes who never really had a shot either due to academic and intellectual challenges, or personality issues.
So the key is to get selected straight out of medical school.
How do you do this?
Beyond grades and some perhaps research,,, getting your face out there is key. GME is influenced by whether the program director knows you, and wants you (ranks you high on their order or merit list). If you are desirable to a program director and you are reasonably competative you will probably get selected. Human nature is to go with the guy/woman who has demonstrated excellence in person rather than on just on paper. Most directors try to go for a strong familiar face over the unknown.
If you are an unknown commodity, you might be at risk, even with a strong medical school transcript. Let's not forget that often the best clinicians and colleagues are often from the middle of their class - program directors know this. Common sense and clinical judgement in medicine are vastly superior to intellect alone.
USUHS has a leg up as they have more opportunity to do rotations at residency sites. They also all get an active duty residency thus decreasing those available to HPSP. An HPSP student should be able to make up the difference but it will entail, arranging an ADT to one of the sites and then kicking ***. I would recommend being strategic as if you aren't the best applicant consider this when choosing which program you lobby for.
I have definitely seen good people get screwed, but at least in my experience this is a minority.
Most (but not all) of the perpetual GMO's are there for a reason. Take this into account when reading posts from Bomberdoc and others. I don't know bomber doc (might be the best guy ever) but If were to judge him from his posts I would estimate that I wouldn't want him as a resident or coworker.
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Yeah, can you you be sure you won't be one of the "minority" of people that won't be screwed by the likes of this guy.
The insult to bomber doc for his dissent is typical of the hyperpatriotics who think everything is OK, and anyone who thinks otherwise must be a defective person.
The fact is you may not have your choice of residency, and if you eventually get one, you will incur more time owned to the military. With todays decrepid and continually dying military med system, it is a highly poor choice if your aim is to be a physician first. If you want to be a military officer, and much later a physician, then by all means, the military may be for you.
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Really? This hasn't been my experience in the AF. Getting stuck with the GMO just seems totally random to me. When I was matching, there was a sudden, inexplicable drop in the number of ortho deferments, so virtually all of the top-notch ortho applicants ended up as GMO's. Most were so pissed off that they finished their committments as GMO's and then did civilian residency.
Just because someone like bomberdoc is angry doesn't mean he has a poor resume or is a bad doc. Frankly, some of the best applicants are the MOST pissed off by the military matching system, because on the civilian side they would have had their first choice.
As you point out, the military match is a totally different game, and some very high-quality students may just not play it very well (or even know the rules for that matter).
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My experience is that most physicians overestimate their competence and intelligence and thus just can't "get" why they don't get picked up for the residency year after year. I once heard a speaker describe an problem of physicians of excessive self esteem (everyone thinks they are in the top 1/3 of docs, even when confronted with evidence to the contrary)
I'm certainly not trying to bash bomerdoc, and I cannot speak to the USAF's use of GMO's but I can say that in general in the Army each applicant ends up somewhere for a reason,,,, it isn't a random number generator that picks the positions, and yes,,, factors like intelligence, work ethic, interpersonal skills, appearance etc, factor in.
Galo as always pipes in with a negative swipe,,, to my knowledge, the number of people I've screwed figuratively = zero.
Galo, I'm sorry you ended up at Offut - I can't imagine any surgeon being happy there, but then again you picked the USAF. Your self aggrandizing letter that you posted which apparently you sent to your Command, the one with like 100 references to "I" was pretty transparent. I don't doubt the USAF went after you,, (probably unfairly) but I bet you had a signficant some role to play as well. As far as the USAF... contrary to popular opinion they are the most draconian of the services when if comes to interactions with doctors. I hope you are happy with your bariatric practice in rural America.
I'm certainly not trying to bash bomerdoc, and I cannot speak to the USAF's use of GMO's but I can say that in general in the Army each applicant ends up somewhere for a reason,,,, it isn't a random number generator that picks the positions, and yes,,, factors like intelligence, work ethic, interpersonal skills, appearance etc, factor in.
Galo as always pipes in with a negative swipe,,, to my knowledge, the number of people I've screwed figuratively = zero.
Galo, I'm sorry you ended up at Offut - I can't imagine any surgeon being happy there, but then again you picked the USAF. Your self aggrandizing letter that you posted which apparently you sent to your Command, the one with like 100 references to "I" was pretty transparent. I don't doubt the USAF went after you,, (probably unfairly) but I bet you had a signficant some role to play as well. As far as the USAF... contrary to popular opinion they are the most draconian of the services when if comes to interactions with doctors. I hope you are happy with your bariatric practice in rural America.
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-Given what you said about going to marine OCS, you may want to do navy HPSP, internship and then 4 years with the marines. Most people, even on this board agree that it is a rewarding life experience. Then get out and do a civilian residency.
-FAP is nice because you can do the residency of your choice in a civilian program while making good money even while paying your student loans, no gmo. Remember that FAP years don't count toward retirement like military residencies do, but if you aren't planning on staying beyond your commitment than it doesn't matter. Most importantly, you make the decision to go military a little bit older when you have a better idea of what you want(are you still looking for adventure or have your priorities changed?
-if you are planning a 20 year military career, then USU is probably the best option.
-being let out for a year for humanitarian things is pretty unlikely. But, if you can get through the process without much debt/financial commitments you would be set up to do something like full-time humanitarian work after getting out.
Services:
Air Force- very primary care dominated residency options but everything is available. Best lifestyle, deployment scheds etc... CCAT teams are very cool(someone else can explain)
Army- Residency straight through, probably the best selection of residencies and fellowships. Long deployments in wartime, may deploy as GMO after you are residency trained,
Navy(I'M BIASED)- GMO for competitive specialties(ortho, derm, rads...), best locations, uniforms, most broad military occupations(marine infantry, ships, subs, pilots, special forces...), good residency selection but not as good as army.
Remember, doing hpsp or fap doesn't mean a career in the military, it means 4 or 5 years in the military which it sounds like you might enjoy.
-FAP is nice because you can do the residency of your choice in a civilian program while making good money even while paying your student loans, no gmo. Remember that FAP years don't count toward retirement like military residencies do, but if you aren't planning on staying beyond your commitment than it doesn't matter. Most importantly, you make the decision to go military a little bit older when you have a better idea of what you want(are you still looking for adventure or have your priorities changed?
-if you are planning a 20 year military career, then USU is probably the best option.
-being let out for a year for humanitarian things is pretty unlikely. But, if you can get through the process without much debt/financial commitments you would be set up to do something like full-time humanitarian work after getting out.
Services:
Air Force- very primary care dominated residency options but everything is available. Best lifestyle, deployment scheds etc... CCAT teams are very cool(someone else can explain)
Army- Residency straight through, probably the best selection of residencies and fellowships. Long deployments in wartime, may deploy as GMO after you are residency trained,
Navy(I'M BIASED)- GMO for competitive specialties(ortho, derm, rads...), best locations, uniforms, most broad military occupations(marine infantry, ships, subs, pilots, special forces...), good residency selection but not as good as army.
Remember, doing hpsp or fap doesn't mean a career in the military, it means 4 or 5 years in the military which it sounds like you might enjoy.
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Your other questions:
-physical fitness and swimming isn't really a factor at all unless you are very poor at them.
-for USU admissions, it is similar to other schools, except that once you are at the interview, they are looking for people who would like and do well in the military. They don't care as much(unfortunately I think) about someone having a brilliant research future or academic ability. They seem to want solid doctors for the field.
-you can do dive school, jump school etc... while in school, usually as a 4th year elective.
-physical fitness and swimming isn't really a factor at all unless you are very poor at them.
-for USU admissions, it is similar to other schools, except that once you are at the interview, they are looking for people who would like and do well in the military. They don't care as much(unfortunately I think) about someone having a brilliant research future or academic ability. They seem to want solid doctors for the field.
-you can do dive school, jump school etc... while in school, usually as a 4th year elective.
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I can at least speak to this one, somewhat. HPSP requires one 45-day active duty for training (ADT) period for every year of the scholarship. The first is usually used for OBC/COT/OIC either the summer before MS1 or between MS1 and MS2. The second is often used as "at school" orders after MS2 to study for boards, a 3rd year rotation at a DOD facility, or research at some place like WRAIR. The 3rd and 4th are generally used for ADT rotations (early 4th year, or late 3rd/early 4th) at the places you would like to train--these are regular clinical rotations as you would normally have them at your home training hospital. Some schools allow additional non-active duty rotations at hospitals with which they have set up MOUs.
Example: I am doing two of my core MS3 rotations at Womack next year to become familiar with Army medicine (may try to swing a third in Darnall's ED--provided I can get an MOU signed), and doing an ADT and NADT month in 4th year prior to the match to [hopefully] be known to the Program Directors. From what I've been told here, and elsewhere, it is almost a requirement to rotate through the program at which you want to pursue your GME--generally even moreso if you want a civilian deferral. For further information about HPSP student rotations, I direct you to one of the stickies at the top of this forum: "Military Rotations/Bases." I can't speak for dive or jump badges while in college, but I doubt it.
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Wow. Where do I begin? I'm honored that I am able to come off as a threat to a typical power hungry, yes-man, risk matrix *****, wannabe management puke. I know I'm doing something right when I'm pissing off people like you. No, I'm not the best guy ever. Why say what you don't mean? Always hedging your bets? Afraid to take a stand? You'll do well as a med squadron or hospital commander.
Me, I'm just an average doc who has the balls to stand up for what is right and fair. My superiors and my patients don't always like it, but they do get the best care I'm able to offer within the constraints of the system. Walk right up to a colonel and tell them that they are wrong? Hell, yes! But better back that s#it up with some cold hard facts. I get dinged on officership at every feedback session because I'm not afraid to call a turd a turd. At these same sessions, however, my practice is never called into question. I've had people from above and below (so to speak) go after me to no avail. My work speaks for itself. I'm sure if I worked with or for you, a1, you would be on that list too.
Am I a loser because I didn't get selected for military GME? How come I matched into my #1 choice in a competitive specialty the first time I did the civilian match? These guys thought enough of me to rank me for their residency program. I'm pretty sure I wouldn't want you as a co-worker either. I'm not too fond of spending all day working alongside douchebags. It is probably more important to be skilled socially when working with aviators than skilled medically. I bet your ears get all red with anger when a flightsuit walks by because you know you'll never be cool enough to hang in that crowd. Feel free to continue trash talking, Poindexter, because I'm on my way out to the real world. While you are worrying about the formatting on that policy document, I'll be enjoying my freedom and a real salary.
Oh, and the cheap shots aimed at Galo are unsat. He is one of the patron saints of truth on this board. You management types shouldn't be hanging out here at the electronic water cooler. Go back to making some copies of a useless document you spent all week working on and the rest of us will get back to saving lives and keeping the mission going.
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This gem was written by our buddy a1 a while back in a thread about length of deployments. I feel sorry for the poor bastards who have to work with him.
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Before you start insulting people's degrees, maybe you should take a long look in the mirror, take a deep breath, and then get a life. Seriously, I am tired of SOME MDs having a huge superiority complex. The fact is aside from a few residencies, DOs are matching in MD programs all the time. More than 50% of my class ended up going this route and matched at some pretty competitve places (Including myself). For categorizing DOs as inherent inferior students, you get a big
(I would give you another finger, but that does not seem to be an option here).That is hilarious. Your name must be Joker, isn't it. Do you make all of the nurses laugh at you jokes? Seriously, please stay in military medicine, I really don't think you could handle the civilian world
Actually for some residencies, med students are not alowed to apply. How many Ortho, ENT spots do you think there are anyway? How many students do you think want these spots? Don't you think GMOs could possibly be preselected? This may be very unusual for Army, but it commonplace for the AF and Navy. Simple fact, you are more likely to get the residency of your choice (Especially competitive residencies) AFTER you do a GMO tour.
This maybe the one thing we actually agree on. In fact, the military will always take the less qualified (i.e. Inferior applicant), if they have prior military experience and have shown their face there. On the flipside, you can have a very good rotation with an LOR from the program director at the hospital you want to be out, you may still not end up there. This has happened to countless people (Army, AF, and Navy)
I am pretty sure that this may have been the dumbest thing you said in this post. Are you a program director in a military residency program? No wonder, while so many good applicants get turned away, if people like this are making decisions. Let me reitterate, most military residency programs SUCK in comparison to civilian programs and this guy is a prime example of just one of the reasons why. And if he is not a residency director, he sure has a huge ego. Seriously, do you need a gym bag to carry that around with you all day?
Thank you for contradicting yourself and proving my point at the same time. Dumba**
Right about now at the end of my post, I will usually apologize if I come off offense to certain sensitive people, but F*ck it. This guy is a first class A-hole. I sure hope he/she realizes it.
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Wow. Just wow. Consider the irony of your statement. You are posting on a website for military physicians to voice their concerns regarding military medicine and provide the FACTS for prospective students from doctors who have first-hand experience what it is to be a military doc and you say people are stupid and inferior doctors and we certainly can't be right. We must be stupid if you say we are, I guess. Were you thinking of yourself when writing this post? Do you have a self esteem problem where you need to affirm your life by calling others inferior to yourself? Do you call garbage men, bank tellers, chefs, etc the same?
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Ahhhh...I feel much better and I am calmed down now.
Changing subjects...You can't be serious that the Navy has the best Unis. Come on now. You know you always looked at the AF flight suits and thought "why can't I look that cool. Instead, I have to wear a beige or white uni everyday to work which I have to iron every night"(Oh yes, the flight suit not only doesn't have to be ironed, but shouldn't be ironed because it affects it's flame-******ant abilities). Even the people who aren't cool enough to wear the flight suits still wear BDU. If the AF was still wearing the blues primarily, I would agree with you, but I think you are definitely wrong in this case. Come on...admit it.
I'm sorry to sound condescending here... but I feel like
people seem to be stating the obvious about military
medicine or medicine in general and also feeling surprised
about something happening to them in this process.
For example...
"Being put into 2 years of GMO after doing an internship instead
of getting right into residency after internship."
-This shouldn't surprise anyone. If you do your research, this has
to be expected. If you still want to do military medicine, then at
least join Army so you would get residency training straight through.
"The best students getting the residency of their choice, and the
mediocre students hurting."
-Yes. This is also exactly how it works in civilian medical training.
Why does this statement surprise anyone??
If there was a section in the forum called "Pediatric emergency
medicine in Saint Louis" people would still come on here and
complain.
>50% of US workers don't like their job. And if the number for physicians
is higher than would'nt surprise me at all. Money sure does help
people "tolerate" their jobs but it doesnt mean they love getting
up in the morning and love what they do.
What I am trying to say is is something is to be expected, why
get surprised or shocked at it?
people seem to be stating the obvious about military
medicine or medicine in general and also feeling surprised
about something happening to them in this process.
For example...
"Being put into 2 years of GMO after doing an internship instead
of getting right into residency after internship."
-This shouldn't surprise anyone. If you do your research, this has
to be expected. If you still want to do military medicine, then at
least join Army so you would get residency training straight through.
"The best students getting the residency of their choice, and the
mediocre students hurting."
-Yes. This is also exactly how it works in civilian medical training.
Why does this statement surprise anyone??
If there was a section in the forum called "Pediatric emergency
medicine in Saint Louis" people would still come on here and
complain.
>50% of US workers don't like their job. And if the number for physicians
is higher than would'nt surprise me at all. Money sure does help
people "tolerate" their jobs but it doesnt mean they love getting
up in the morning and love what they do.
What I am trying to say is is something is to be expected, why
get surprised or shocked at it?
As someone who is considering taking the scholarship, I really appreciate their opinions. I think most of them would say they are doing it to help guys like me make an informed decision. I would have never known this stuff without someone taking the time to post it.
I agree with you. The opinions presented can be valuable information.
What I don't understand is actual current or former military physicians
are so surprised with certain outcomes or facts as i mentioned
above, it makes me wonder if those things should have been
researched and expected before joining.
Yes. I will be attending USUHS so I haven't done much research
on HPSP.. But from what I seen on these boards people seen to think
that currently, USU is the better choice over HPSP. I chose Army, and
I am really into the military lifestyle and opportunities.. and I think
with HPSP its a damned if you do, damned if you don't (by this
I mean going into a military residency or not.)
If you do, many specialities that you might otherwise be qualified
for in the civilian world you may not match into, not to mention
USU students probably have an advantage over you, even those
with no prior service. And if you go civilian, you miss out
on pay benefits and such as well as probably not being happy with
active duty work after residency due to not being accustomed with
the military med system and lifestyle.
These two things is why I think USU wins out over HPSP many-fold,
if you could accept the much longer commitment. Hope this helps.
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First of all, I think most current (and as you put it, Actual) military physicians did not have the info presented in this site. It was just not available at the time we signed our contracts. I guarantee that at least 1/2 of the people that were given GMO billets (when they thought they would be able to go from internship to residency), would have opted never to have taken the "scholarship" in the first place.
Second of all, it is just plain ignorance to think that we were not fed a line of **** by recruiters. We were told (and this was published on the HPSP website) that "96% get their first choice of residency and 98% get either their first or second choice".
I guess it would be easy to label us as "whiners", but then again you are nowhere near even similar situations to us (At least, not yet). I was actually extremely idealistic when I took the HPSP scholarship, but that quickly turned sour when I had to cancel all of my civilian residency interviews because I was not given a civilian deferment or a military residency. I certainly was not alone. Out of the 20 Anesthesia spots available that year, there were >40 applicants. This was exactly the same numbers for Ortho and ER. I saw Hopkins, UVA, and USUHS (You would have thought) get denied residency positions.
Finally, as I said before the BEST students do not always get their residency of choice (if even get one in the first place). I think we have different definitions of what a good applicant is. I think it is somebody who worked really hard in med school to maintain excellent academic achievement, scored well on their boards, have research experience, and good LORs while going to really good schools. I think you are equating prior military experience or attendance to USUHS with a good applicant (regardless of their performance during med school).
So, I guess I just don't understand your post. However, it is pretty easy to have your view point when you have not even experienced the joys of military medicine. I welcome you to post 5-8 years from now and tell me if you still feel the same way. Just remember, we were all like yourself at one time. My prediction is you may be in store for a rude awakening. I know a lot of USUHS grads that are counting down to their date of separation, just like their HPSP counterparts. Disconent is widespread in military medicine
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If your main goal is to obtain a military residency, that all depends on which specialty you chose. As of right now, since you are interested in ER and Ortho, unless you want to do a GMO tour first, you should go Army. The chances of you getting trained straight through (especially with the AF/Navy and if you go the HPSP route) are very slim regardless of how well you do in med school. I am sticking with my advice that your residency of choice may (and probably will) change a couple of times before you finally settle on your chosen field. If you feel that you "must" take the HPSP contract and want to avoid the GMO tour, go the Army route. Keep in mind, if you decide you want OB, Peds, IM, FP, or other less competitve specialties you will most likely get your "coveted" military residency.
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Nobody thinks you guys are whiners. If I was told something by an officer representing the US DoD an He/She appeared completely honest in their approach I too would feel very burned if when I got through it all, it was nothing close to the picture that was painted. My brother in Law went to USUHS, worked very hard and Matched (yes actually matched) at Ft. Lewis in Peds (this was his number 1) only to have it taken from him to be sent to Tripler to do peds there (Hawaii is a fun rotation spot but you don't really wanna live their do ya?) Needless to say He was livid. He had paperwork in hand telling him he was going to Madigan only to have the rug pulled out from under his feet at the last minute. You always have to expect the Military will do whatever it wants and you are along for the ride. Personally I want to make the most of my time in the Military (20+ year guy here) but am grateful for those who are telling it like it is with some humility and tact. Even after all my brother in law has been through he still recommends Military medicine. You can be angry and satisfied. Hell, ask any civilian doc and He'll tell you the same thing.
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Facts are facts -
No where in my post is their any implication that DO's are somehow inferior. The fact is however IN GENERAL they have lower GPA's and have lower MCAT scores (this is not open to debate). As I stated in my post - tests and GPA's are not good ways to identify good doctors ---sorry bomberdoc - if you think otherwise you have no concept of the practice of medicine. An average intellect doctor with judgement, compassion, and discipline will always trump a far smarter doc who lacks one of these traits.
The best resident I ever worked with was a DO - a nontraditional student - who frankly blew me away with his clinical judgement and knowledge. Actually from a clinical standpoint I don't really see a quality difference between DO's and MD's. So I guess my superiority complex is a figment of your imagination. The point of my comment was not to bash DO's but to point out that if you are an MD, if DO's represent a greater proportion of applicants then theortically this might increase your competiveness if matches are based heavily on board scores, grades etc. Its just a fact not a value statement - so setcho - un wad your panties.
My post addressed the OP's questions
I think my post hit close to home with Bomberdoc and his true nature was again revealled. Hmm, perhaps there IS a reason why those who know him don't want him.....
Find me the residency nonselect who stands up and says, you know,,,, maybe I wasn't the best applicant. I haven't seen one yet (especially on this site)... why... because everyone feels entitled to everything even if not deserved or earned.
Also nowhere did I sell the miltary in my post,, again, I stayed on topic unlike most of the other posts. For **** sake does your uniform appearance or your ability to fake out chicks with your flight suit really matter, and is it relevant to someone trying to figure out what service to choose? Please grow up
No where in my post is their any implication that DO's are somehow inferior. The fact is however IN GENERAL they have lower GPA's and have lower MCAT scores (this is not open to debate). As I stated in my post - tests and GPA's are not good ways to identify good doctors ---sorry bomberdoc - if you think otherwise you have no concept of the practice of medicine. An average intellect doctor with judgement, compassion, and discipline will always trump a far smarter doc who lacks one of these traits.
The best resident I ever worked with was a DO - a nontraditional student - who frankly blew me away with his clinical judgement and knowledge. Actually from a clinical standpoint I don't really see a quality difference between DO's and MD's. So I guess my superiority complex is a figment of your imagination. The point of my comment was not to bash DO's but to point out that if you are an MD, if DO's represent a greater proportion of applicants then theortically this might increase your competiveness if matches are based heavily on board scores, grades etc. Its just a fact not a value statement - so setcho - un wad your panties.
My post addressed the OP's questions
I think my post hit close to home with Bomberdoc and his true nature was again revealled. Hmm, perhaps there IS a reason why those who know him don't want him.....
Find me the residency nonselect who stands up and says, you know,,,, maybe I wasn't the best applicant. I haven't seen one yet (especially on this site)... why... because everyone feels entitled to everything even if not deserved or earned.
Also nowhere did I sell the miltary in my post,, again, I stayed on topic unlike most of the other posts. For **** sake does your uniform appearance or your ability to fake out chicks with your flight suit really matter, and is it relevant to someone trying to figure out what service to choose? Please grow up
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The original poster was the first one who joked about the uniform thing, so maybe you should relax a little before railing people for going off topic.
I'm sorry, I'll admit that I'm not a doc and I'm not even military yet, but you seem to be really hypocritical. You accuse everyone on this site of whining, when it seems to me that you're doing the same thing, just from a different angle. You spend more of your time attacking specific people on here than addressing the underlying issues. I think that makes your conduct as bad or worse than those you are lording over.
Navy has the cool flight suits as well. You just have to be in aviation to wear them. And BDUs don't attract the ladies like summer whites.
The numbers are out there. If you talk to the GME offices of the various services they have those numbers, but I don't know how willing they are to share them.
Living in Hawaii?? Oh, yes. Yes, you do. Did not miss winter. Beach all year round. Stable temperatures. Nurses stations overlooking the southern coast of Oahu. (that part can be torture at times). Biggest drawback is if you have school age children. School system is terrible.
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My man, if getting to go to Hawaii for your straight-through residency of choice makes him livid, your brother-in-law has a long road ahead of him.
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I am done commenting to or about this guy, from now on
Attachments
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Unless you are appearing on a crappy dating show (that nobody watches), the ladies prefer BDUs over the summer whites.
I think we need a poll.
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It wasn't just the fact it was Hawaii, it was the fact that his number 1 was taken away from him and he was sent to somewhere he really didn't want to go (he has two school age children and have you ever tried to live in Hawaii? Living on an Island in the middle of the ocean affects parts of your life you aren't aware of until you do it).
Stationed in Hawaii for 4.5 years. Got that post card. Plane tickets back were getting expensive. My relatives were on the east coast. Try flying for 9+ hours with toddlers.
I get the losing your first choice. (lost a couple of sets of orders like that.)
I get him being furious. I was just making snide comments about being sent to Hawaii. Could have been worse. Could have been sent to Bragg.
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the ladies prefer BDUs over the summer whites.
I don't know, dude. I've seen the navy guys pull some serious chicks with those damn white uniforms. The only thing I don't like about the navy flightsuit is that you guys wear brown boots with them. Just doesn't look right to me unless you are wearing desert tan.
I'm done with a1. I think I respect my recruiter more than I respect him.
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Ouch.
When did I even elude to equating prior military or attending USUHS
to being a good applicant? What I said was simply all things being
equal (and by this I mean grades and board scores) a USUHS student
will probably have the advantage applying to a military residency.
Read my post again. Of course what makes a good applicant
is competence (ie. grades and scores) but competence for a military
residency also means competency as a military officer/experience
which is where a USUHS student has the advantage.
Not to mention USUHS students have to fill the military residencies
since they arent allowed to do civilian residencies (in rare cases
this happens.)
And also to paraphrase your post, not all the posters on here were like
"myself" in the past. It seems to me that many posters on this forum
either were not ready to/not expecting certain consequences (likely)
or were really misinformed and neglected to do the research
neccesary to make just huge life decisions. (hard for me to fathom)
You're trying to tell me that half of HPSP/USU applicants had
no idea that they might do a GMO after internship? Wow.
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Don't get too defensive just yet. There will be plenty of time for that. You see, as I alluded before it would be one thing if 2 applicants had equal "vital stats", but 1 had prior military experience or is a USUHS student and the other is a HPSP participant. It is another thing to have one student who is clearly superior over another student in every way (except prior military experience or if they went to a med school affiliated with the military). We are in total agreement that USUHS students have a clear advantage over HPSP studens for residencies, especially when USUHS students need to fill the military residencies.
Please explain your background and why you feel you are so different from most of the people that come to this site looking for info. I have a hard time thinking how you can be so callous regarding people's lack of info at the time they signed the contract. In my opinion, that sounds very apathetic. I hope I am wrong for your sake and your future patient's sakes.
I think you misunderstood me on this. I said that "I guarantee that at least 1/2 of the people that were given GMO billets (when they thought they would be able to go from internship to residency), would have opted never to have taken the "scholarship" in the first place." However, to expand on this nearly all of the people that were sent to do Flight Surgery after internship (Especially in the AIR FORCE) did not foresee this coming ntil it was too late. If you don't believe me, just take a trip down the road to Andrews AFB. I believe there are a couple of Flight Docs there without residency training. They can tell you an estimation of how many flight docs thought they would be sent for a GMO tour. Notice how my emphasis to my comments are towards AF applicants, because most Navy HPSP people realized that they will most likely need to do a tour in order to get a competitive residency.
Once again, sorry if you were offended by my post. I like to think that the sooner the HPSP/USUHS students are educated about militrary medicine/military GME the better off they are.
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I'll buy that. On the Navy side of the house, HPSP is just about the least publicized scholarship out there. I only knew about it after talking to some Navy docs. I did all the research on the thing myself (and I didn't know about this forum until I started school, so this wasn't a resource I used). I didn't realize half of the Navy has to do a GMO type tour, and I'm prior Navy. It doesn't really bother me, I look at it as a chance to do some fun operational stuff again, and it chips away at the 13 years I need to retire. I also will probably need the points based on my first year grades.
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Did you apply to med school while still in the Navy? Every navy doc I talked to told me about the GMO tour. Like you said, it wasn't good or bad, just a fact of life. Some guys liked it, some didn't.
HPSP may be difficult to find info on because many medical schools are biased against the military, and it's like pulling teeth for Navy recruiters to talk about financial aid while med schools are interviewing students and filling them in on other financial aid sources. The theory is that civilian med schools want their students doing research or matching right away, and thus they try to play down HPSP.
Some applicants (not you) need to do their research a little better. I was sent to Miami for a recruiting weekend for USUHS. Some idiots came up andasked me if I could promise them that they could serve out their obligation in Miami. I laughed, and told them to not even bother applying to USUHS or HPSP.
While there may be some anti-military med schools, I can think of a few schools that love military members (Tulane, Georgetown, Loyola, etc). These pricey schools want a guaranteed pay check. The South also loves the military. I found zero prejudice applying as a military member to civilian residencies, and I think military experience was key in getting me an invite (not the same as med school- more competitive actually). West Coast, East Coast, doesn't matter. If you possess the grades and scores, you'll do fine. Do you really think a Navy corpsman who served in Iraq or an AF pilot with a 38 MCAT, >3.5 GPA, and a little clinical experience would be biased against?
Lemme get this straight. You're supposed to be recruiting people. You laugh at these people after asking a sensible question from their standpoint. Who knows? Maybe they have family in Miami, family with significant medical illnesses. Maybe they just don't know about bases and deployments. Why don't you ask why? Explain things? There are actually a fair number of bases in Florida/Georgia. You could have had some good physicians or at least taught these people, and instead you mock them. They'll talk to their friends, and USUHS gets a reputation for arrogance. I know a few USUHS grads, good people. They deserve to be represented better.
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Man, this thread got hijacked a while ago. Which service is the question... the answer is NONE OF THE ABOVE. Military Medicine is dying and you would be a huge fcuking idiot to join at this time or anytime in the next 10 years. Seriously, haven't you been reading this forum? I'm disappointed in the lack of intellect from anyone who still thinks the military is a good deal.