Who are the students that fail Dental school?

[Biofilm preventer]

Im a d1 and i am a little above the average usually on each exam/quiz. However, i am more curious for the people that fail out of dental school. What are usually the common denominators for students that remediate/fail school. Because obviously they are all great students as they had to have a good undergrad gpa, tough curricululum in undergrad and had to do well on the dat. So obviously they are good students and have self discipline and motivation etc. So if thats the case, which students actually fail? Because i feel like everyone here is smart and is able to pass and do good if i am doing good because i am by no means the smartest kid.

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[zNoodlez]

I would honestly just focus on yourself for the next 3 years or so.

 

[oralcare123]

Dental school is often tough to handle emotionally. No one tells you, that you may realize, that you are bad at/hate dentistry when you are already hundreds of thousand into it. Some are just bad at handling patients/clinic
Another unpleasant discovery about dental school and I did try to avoid writing about it in "Hate DS" thread, is that instructors and other stuff are not what you expect - kind and knowledgeable people, who have desire to teach and understand where their paycheck is coming from. No
Often they are inexperienced, angry, unhappy or just plain psychopaths. They will fail you, if they don't like you. Sucking up to such people for four years is not easy
If you were lucky to choose great school, then just stay on top of things, ask for help, if you need it and you will be fine

 

[PerioDont]

Im a d1 and i am a little above the average usually on each exam/quiz. However, i am more curious for the people that fail out of dental school. What are usually the common denominators for students that remediate/fail school. Because obviously they are all great students as they had to have a good undergrad gpa, tough curricululum in undergrad and had to do well on the dat. So obviously they are good students and have self discipline and motivation etc. So if thats the case, which students actually fail? Because i feel like everyone here is smart and is able to pass and do good if i am doing good because i am by no means the smartest kid.

in my experience they often don't seem to be able to ask for help. sometimes it can be that students have never struggled before with something, and have trouble reaching out.

In DS almost everyone will have trouble with something, it's very important to stay humble and be able to ask for help when you need it.

Sometimes also people have personal problems whether family, mental/psychological issues etc. these can complicate things quite a bit. I know a good chunk of people in my class drink fairly heavily, or drugs of some sort, whether anti-depressants, marijuana, ritalin, or illegal drugs. as the above poster mentioned d school is emotionally very taxing, and profs can be dicks.

also its not necessarily even studying/tests that can be tough. I'm a D4, and what frustrates me the most is that so much is just out of my control. The school is only allowing us 2 appointments (vs 10 usually) per week, but they are keeping graduation requirements the same as the other years. myself and all my classmates are majorly stressed as sometimes you just can't find pts for whatever you need. or there are some stupid paperwork things you haven't completed, you can fail at my school for an axiUm chart audit problem. or if your pts don't show up, then you could fail as you have a min pt attendance requirement. we also have a financial requirement and tons of other dumb things.

that being said, most people are our school fail out in the first 1-2 years, and its usually didactics. after that they try to string you along and let you graduate at least. one D4 got expelled at my school for messing with infection control, pre covid, but still warranted IMO.

 

[2TH MVR]

My roommate for D1 was kicked out after his 1st yr. His priorities were all screwed up. He was a local in that small college town. Family. Friends. His mantra was "C's get degrees". He was trying to coast by. He also had a night time job as a security guard for the local college. He under-estimated the difficulty of DS and was kicked out for failing grades. Lucky for him .... he was accepted to an EXPENSIVE DS and is now a practicing dentist.

My roommate for DS3 was also kicked out. Funny thing is that he was my best man at my wedding. He wasn't the best student and to make things worst .... he struggled in the labs. I obviously tried to help him, but to no avail. Not sure what he is doing today.

Lets see. Two roommates in 3 yrs. Maybe they had a crappy roommate? Me?

 

[Molar Whisperer]

My roommate for D1 was kicked out after his 1st yr. His priorities were all screwed up. He was a local in that small college town. Family. Friends. His mantra was "C's get degrees". He was trying to coast by. He also had a night time job as a security guard for the local college. He under-estimated the difficulty of DS and was kicked out for failing grades. Lucky for him .... he was accepted to an EXPENSIVE DS and is now a practicing dentist.

My roommate for DS3 was also kicked out. Funny thing is that he was my best man at my wedding. He wasn't the best student and to make things worst .... he struggled in the labs. I obviously tried to help him, but to no avail. Not sure what he is doing today.

Lets see. Two roommates in 3 yrs. Maybe they had a crappy roommate? Me?

I'm glad for them that they did not have an argument with you at the local bar (inside joke)...think Rocky series.

 

[TanMan]

There are a few types that leave dental school, and not necessarily from failing. The ones that truly fail out are the ones that are too dumb (contrary to what people believe, hard work sometimes just isn't enough), too preoccupied (mental breakdown, life events), too lazy (and you have to be ridiculously lazy, i.e not look at any material to fail), or internal politics (stay under the radar if possible, don't stir the pot, don't piss people off even if they are wrong, etc...).

 

[MLC45]

The people I know that had to retake a year was because of hand skills not up to par (2 people) or grades (3 people). Some had family issues that increased their stress level and caused their grades to drop and sometimes it was from dinking around and not studying like you should.

The only person I know to fail out of school was because of his attitude. He had to repeat 2nd year because of his hand skills and he wouldn't take any advise on how to improve from his instructors. They tried to work with him, but he basically told them he knew what he was doing and wouldn't change.

 

[90sportsfan]

I'm not sure how it is in dental school, but in medical school nowadays, it is really hard to "fail out." You can fail a test, but to fail to the point where they kick you out, you'd have to not try or do something egregious. Of course there are Step exams that give the school an objective measure to kick you out if you fail after a certain number of attempts. But assuming you could pass those, rotations are so subjective that it becomes more of a headache for schools in this type of litigious society to fail you.

The most likely scenario is that a really poor medical student would not match, and therefore, their degree is practically worthless. There are a hand-full of people all over the country who do not match.

But, IMO, and I would assume it is the same in dental school as well, completing failing to the point where they kick you out is probably extremely rare, even for poor students. In medical (and assuming dental too) training it was very common that people would fail out and not make it. In the current state of society, this is a lot more rare. There have been several lawsuits related to health professions students being kicked out, and even for those poor students (who didn't have the grades/skills), they usually win some type of settlement. Deans/Faculty/Administration are named in the lawsuits, which is obviously not pleasant, so most schools try to do everything they can to avoid it. Therefore, most schools will give you repeated chances to do the "bare minimum," so they don't have to take the chance of kicking you out and facing the legal issues that could follow.

 

[gryffindor]

Dental schools let in some borderline candidates. And then some of them don't make it.

 

[PerioDont]

I'm not sure how it is in dental school, but in medical school nowadays, it is really hard to "fail out." You can fail a test, but to fail to the point where they kick you out, you'd have to not try or do something egregious. Of course there are Step exams that give the school an objective measure to kick you out if you fail after a certain number of attempts. But assuming you could pass those, rotations are so subjective that it becomes more of a headache for schools in this type of litigious society to fail you.

The most likely scenario is that a really poor medical student would not match, and therefore, their degree is practically worthless. There are a hand-full of people all over the country who do not match.

But, IMO, and I would assume it is the same in dental school as well, completing failing to the point where they kick you out is probably extremely rare, even for poor students. In medical (and assuming dental too) training it was very common that people would fail out and not make it. In the current state of society, this is a lot more rare. There have been several lawsuits related to health professions students being kicked out, and even for those poor students (who didn't have the grades/skills), they usually win some type of settlement. Deans/Faculty/Administration are named in the lawsuits, which is obviously not pleasant, so most schools try to do everything they can to avoid it. Therefore, most schools will give you repeated chances to do the "bare minimum," so they don't have to take the chance of kicking you out and facing the legal issues that could follow.

Out of my class of 70, 5 are not with us, so I would not call it extremely rare, though it really depends on each school. overall it makes no sense to the school to kick out students

 

[BeggarsCantBeChoosers]

Whenever people tell you D1 or D2 being the most difficult year in DS, they are not wrong, but the reality is that it gets harder every year in DS especially D3 when you have classes and patients. Sure, the stress in D1/D2 is tremendous but it's still in your control but once you start seeing patients, you can no longer control the stress (patient no shows, not having enough patients, etc). Why did I tell you that? because the "Cs get degree" mentality only works for the first 2 years. If you carry that laziness into 3rd and 4th year, you will definitely struggle. Let that be a lesson for those who think they will be okay if they can just get by in DS with minimum effort. It doesn't matter if you're smart, dumb, average, you better start putting in real effort and start hustling once D3 starts (why not start the very first day of DS?) or you ain't graduating.

 

[MLC45]

Whenever people tell you D1 or D2 being the most difficult year in DS, they are not wrong, but the reality is that it gets harder every year in DS especially D3 when you have classes and patients. Sure, the stress in D1/D2 is tremendous but it's still in your control but once you start seeing patients, you can no longer control the stress (patient no shows, not having enough patients, etc). Why did I tell you that? because the "Cs get degree" mentality only works for the first 2 years. If you carry that laziness into 3rd and 4th year, you will definitely struggle. Let that be a lesson for those who think they will be okay if they can just get by in DS with minimum effort. It doesn't matter if you're smart, dumb, average, you better start putting in real effort and start hustling once D3 starts (why not start the very first day of DS?) or you ain't graduating.

I've had DS2's ask me if 3rd year was easier. I've told them, "Same stress, different reasons". I do like the fact I don't have as much book/class stress because that was always a challenge for me, but now getting the patients to show up or I don't graduate is a different thing all together.

 

[TanMan]

Whenever people tell you D1 or D2 being the most difficult year in DS, they are not wrong, but the reality is that it gets harder every year in DS especially D3 when you have classes and patients. Sure, the stress in D1/D2 is tremendous but it's still in your control but once you start seeing patients, you can no longer control the stress (patient no shows, not having enough patients, etc). Why did I tell you that? because the "Cs get degree" mentality only works for the first 2 years. If you carry that laziness into 3rd and 4th year, you will definitely struggle. Let that be a lesson for those who think they will be okay if they can just get by in DS with minimum effort. It doesn't matter if you're smart, dumb, average, you better start putting in real effort and start hustling once D3 starts (why not start the very first day of DS?) or you ain't graduating.

I'll chime in the whole Cs gets degrees idea (I'm in that camp for most dschool subjects). That mentality, if applied in all aspects of dental school, is definitely inadequate in D3/D4, but not for the reasons you may be alluding to.

C's get degrees is a great concept for classes that don't matter (and most classes don't matter). However, minimal effort for passing useless classes is great for GPs because you can redirect your efforts to more important things such as clinic and learning things that matter in the real world (and grades don't matter for GP, just don't fail). Another aspect is finishing your graduation requirements early by hustling really hard in clinic then staying under the radar until you graduate. Doing more procedures isn't always better; it's worse when you're forced to do it the dental school way rather than a practical/profitable way. If you can practice efficiently, then by all means, do more procedures, but in most instances, there's lots of checks that just make the whole process a bureaucratic mess.

If you do the bare minimum to pass (with hopefully some buffer, sometimes a 65-70 is cutting it too close) and finish your requirements early, then you can be a much better dentist by focusing on the things that matter (and grades don't matter for GPs). All that really matters in the end is graduating, but there's a difference between graduating as a clinically mediocre/excellent dentist and an academically mediocre/excellent dentist. Academics != Clinical. Far from it.

 

[ronnietee]

From what I observed, the ones that didn't succeed in my class in the first year/first semester, they were relatively quiet or were probably too scared to ask for help. Or they studied alone and never collaborated with anyone else/tested their knowledge/taught anyone else something (which I feel like is important to really understand material).

And then when they decided to finally seek help late in the semester, the damage had been done on their grades and they needed a miracle to pass.

 

[deleted954913]

I would honestly just focus on yourself for the next 3 years or so.

best advice here, OP. I didn't even read anyone else's response, stopped immediately and never glanced further. You should do the same (sorry if anyone left good advice echoing the same but is below this post. lol)

 

[deleted954913]

I'll chime in the whole Cs gets degrees idea (I'm in that camp for most dschool subjects). That mentality, if applied in all aspects of dental school, is definitely inadequate in D3/D4, but not for the reasons you may be alluding to.

C's get degrees is a great concept for classes that don't matter (and most classes don't matter). However, minimal effort for passing useless classes is great for GPs because you can redirect your efforts to more important things such as clinic and learning things that matter in the real world (and grades don't matter for GP, just don't fail). Another aspect is finishing your graduation requirements early by hustling really hard in clinic then staying under the radar until you graduate. Doing more procedures isn't always better; it's worse when you're forced to do it the dental school way rather than a practical/profitable way. If you can practice efficiently, then by all means, do more procedures, but in most instances, there's lots of checks that just make the whole process a bureaucratic mess.

If you do the bare minimum to pass (with hopefully some buffer, sometimes a 65-70 is cutting it too close) and finish your requirements early, then you can be a much better dentist by focusing on the things that matter (and grades don't matter for GPs). All that really matters in the end is graduating, but there's a difference between graduating as a clinically mediocre/excellent dentist and an academically mediocre/excellent dentist. Academics != Clinical. Far from it.

crap, didn't know tanman responded as I listened to my own advice there and didn't look. this is great, too. obviously

 

[2TH MVR]

I agree that grades in DS "may" have no relationship to future success. But I do believe that once a "high achiever" always a high achiever. It carries forward.

But what does this "get by with the least amount of effort" say about dentistry as a profession? Being average in academics is good enough for us dentists? We pick and choose what we think is important and then decide which topics get our best effort?

If your best effort is "C's". Then fine.

 

[TanMan]

crap, didn't know tanman responded as I listened to my own advice there and didn't look. this is great, too. obviously

Haha, thanks. I like to be realistic and be practical about things in life.

I agree that grades in DS "may" have no relationship to future success. But I do believe that once a "high achiever" always a high achiever. It carries forward.

But what does this "get by with the least amount of effort" say about dentistry as a profession? Being average in academics is good enough for us dentists? We pick and choose what we think is important and then decide which topics get our best effort?

If your best effort is "C's". Then fine.

A high achiever based on someone who works hard and is smart doesn't always become a high achiever in the end. There are many practical aspects of high academic achievement that don't necessarily translate to clinical or business success. I would contend that those that achieved the best grades in dental school are probably not the best in clinical/business of dentistry, because of what they learned and how it doesn't translate to real world dentistry. It's like having a mastery of spanish but then you somehow end up France. Yes, you could have been awesome in your own realm, but if you took things to heart and couldn't learn anything beyond what you were taught in school, then you're gonna be a spanish master in france. Not the best example, but an example nonetheless.

In an ideal world, if we had infinite time, we could apply maximum effort to reach that horizontal asymptote of perfection. However, there is futility and practical issues when it comes to dedicating all your effort into academics. First, a lot of what we learned in dental school really doesn't matter (or is even counterproductive to real world practice), and many of our future colleagues may not realize this. For example, if I only had 100 Units of Labor to input per week, I could end up consuming 85 of those units on academics and 15 on clinicals or other things that matter. However, what will make me a better dentist? If I could end up allocating 15 work units to pass and allocating 85 work units on subjects that matter and clinical, then I'd probably come out a better dentist over time.

Getting by with the least amount of effort on everything is definitely terrible for the profession. Doing the least amount of effort on things that don't matter is better, so that you can focus on things that do matter. This is the hangups that a lot of non-productive newgrads have to go through. They can't see past what they were taught. They have this mental block that they have to overcome in order to move on, and in our profession, moving on is important for productivity. Unfortunately, many dentists live their life like this and cannot unlock their true potential because of this mental block. What does this have to do with effort? People are learning things that don't necessarily translate into becoming a better clinician or businessperson. It's even more dangerous when they take the dental school way into heart and end up becoming a mediocre dentist.

 

[lemoncurry]

who are the students who fail dental school?

hygienists

 

[Jaa_]

who are the students who fail dental school?

hygienists

You better not be getting mad when someone says you're a failed physician

 

[HatInTheCat]

You better not be getting mad when someone says you're a failed physician

That part.

 

[Biofilm preventer]

Haha, thanks. I like to be realistic and be practical about things in life.



A high achiever based on someone who works hard and is smart doesn't always become a high achiever in the end. There are many practical aspects of high academic achievement that don't necessarily translate to clinical or business success. I would contend that those that achieved the best grades in dental school are probably not the best in clinical/business of dentistry, because of what they learned and how it doesn't translate to real world dentistry. It's like having a mastery of spanish but then you somehow end up France. Yes, you could have been awesome in your own realm, but if you took things to heart and couldn't learn anything beyond what you were taught in school, then you're gonna be a spanish master in france. Not the best example, but an example nonetheless.

In an ideal world, if we had infinite time, we could apply maximum effort to reach that horizontal asymptote of perfection. However, there is futility and practical issues when it comes to dedicating all your effort into academics. First, a lot of what we learned in dental school really doesn't matter (or is even counterproductive to real world practice), and many of our future colleagues may not realize this. For example, if I only had 100 Units of Labor to input per week, I could end up consuming 85 of those units on academics and 15 on clinicals or other things that matter. However, what will make me a better dentist? If I could end up allocating 15 work units to pass and allocating 85 work units on subjects that matter and clinical, then I'd probably come out a better dentist over time.

Getting by with the least amount of effort on everything is definitely terrible for the profession. Doing the least amount of effort on things that don't matter is better, so that you can focus on things that do matter. This is the hangups that a lot of non-productive newgrads have to go through. They can't see past what they were taught. They have this mental block that they have to overcome in order to move on, and in our profession, moving on is important for productivity. Unfortunately, many dentists live their life like this and cannot unlock their true potential because of this mental block. What does this have to do with effort? People are learning things that don't necessarily translate into becoming a better clinician or businessperson. It's even more dangerous when they take the dental school way into heart and end up becoming a mediocre dentist.

So then what should we focus on? I should take minimal time studying for my histology/neuroscience exam and spend extra time just prepping class V?

 

[TanMan]

So then what should we focus on? I should take minimal time studying for my histology/neuroscience exam and spend extra time just prepping class V?

Just enough to pass with a good buffer. Practice handskills and execution. Practice talking to patients. Learn material that will be relevant in clinical practice.

Here's some things I can think of, most of dental school was unfortunately useless.

Didactics: Dental materials (probably one of the most important classes but easily the most ignored), pharmacology (most patients are on some meds, you should know what's relevant to dentistry and what isn't, otherwise, you look like a dumba$s in front of your patients if you don't know your meds. Pharm is very important because you shouldn't need to look at guides or anything, it should be hardwired into your system so it doesn't drag your clinical practice down in that you can read a list of meds, know what's relevant and what isn't, and modify treatment execution prn on the fly, not 10 minutes later), minimum thickness requirements for specific dental materials and preparation guidelines + reasons for deviation from ideal, endodontics, perio surgery + implant placement (a primer/how-to), boards. I mention endo/perio/implant as they require some working knowledge of theory in order to start/proceed to clinical and know what the hell you're doing at the very least. Radiology - know what's normal and from there, you can refer everything that doesn't look normal. You can't learn/experiment w/o knowing where to start with those 3. Ortho you'll have to learn on your own most of the time via CE. Some CEs will give student discounts.

Things that don't matter too much to me in practice: opath (just know what's normal, refer abnormal), occlusion(different schools of thought, not relevant since I'm mostly a single tooth specialist), tmd (not touching with a 10 foot pole), most basic sciences unless there's a corresponding applied science that the basic science builds upon, public health/epidemiology/CAMBRA(exception: understand statistical significance of studies), and probably a whole list of other things that have been repressed in the back of my mind.

Clinicals: Endo + extracted teeth (study the canal arrangements, learn to instrument quickly without separation, mount the teeth and know how it feels when a file is about to separate - better it separate on an extracted tooth than a patient, irrigation techniques/protocols, access, and so on), class II's (quick entry and prep) + crown preps + talking to patients + practice evaluating an FMX and treatment planning very quickly (and be able to come up with a few treatment plans + pros/cons of each treatment plan + explain quickly but thoroughly) - there's usually more than one way to treat a problem and you need to know what the patients options are, what your recommendations are, why you're recommending what you're recommending, but taking into consideration what the patient thinks as well (if their priority is time, cost, ideal treatment, non-ideal treatment, and any other relevant input they might throw at you)

Get as much extraction experience as possible - join international humanitarian groups for dental as they are a good way to legally learn exodontia w/o a license. Pretty much go overseas, help a bunch of people, and learn a lot at the same time.

Remember that dental school is just a foundation. You are being trained to be a doctor to be able to evaluate the everchanging landscape of clinical practice, to be able to critically evaluate and understand how things work from a dental perspective. There are underlying principles within each specialty that need to be understood and eventually executed. One example is understanding levers and how it applies to extraction. Another example is understanding tensile/compressive strengths of certain materials and how they pertain to specific areas of the mouth (i.e the forces that a canine undergoes v. molars v. anteriors and what materials work best in certain regions and why). You can go into many layers upon layers of understanding on a specific subject, but you're not getting a PhD, you need to know a broad base of knowledge with a moderate understanding of the subject for potential future application into the clinical aspects of dentistry.

Anyway, this probably all seems disjointed, this is kindof a braindump, hope this helps. This is primarily relevant to those that want to do GP.

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

You better not be getting mad when someone says you're a failed physician

Big Hoss

 

[yappy]

When you are in dental school you have nothing else to do but dental school. There is no reason to selectively learn some things and not others. When you're in the preclinical years, learning basic science, you should 100% learn the material they're teaching you. When you're in clinic or simlab, that should be your focus.
The students who I saw struggling in dental school were the ones who wanted to focus on "important stuff" that their dad, uncle, or upper classmen told them was important. Well, these people didn't know **** because it's a rare person who will 100% learn some things but not others. You're either a good student or a poor student.

 

[TanMan]

I think the assumption here is that good student = good dentist, which I don't think is the case. Selective learning works great in dental school because not everything in dental school is usable or even remotely correct. We have to learn lots of things in order to pass the exam and that's important - to pass the exam. The knowledge acquired doesn't always have relevance to the practice of dentistry. I was a massive crammer, I pump in lots of data, I dump lots of data during the examination to make room for new information, and what sticks are the ones that have some relevance to the practice of dentistry. When you got 15+ exams in a week, people really need to pick and choose their battles. I'm not going to learn 100% of the material for every subject. I don't have the time nor desire to try since I know that a lot of it is irrelevant. Goal is to pass all exams. Perhaps it is misleading to say that you should only learn certain things and this is definitely not the case. You have to learn to regurgitate lots of irrelevant information, you might learn it for the short term, but that's all it is... short term to pass a test. Store the relevant data in your moderate/long term memory. Discard the rest.

I know that I can't learn things very well when I don't see a point in it. There always has to be a point. Maybe it's my personality, but I think people can selectively learn things better that have some perceived relevance. To reiterate, academic success in dschool does not mean success in real world dentistry.

Edit: How do you know what's relevant? Going through dental school, you start to awaken to the big picture. Everything starts to fit together and you start to understand the world of dentistry, the variables involved in dx/tx, the human element, and so on... It should become your second nature to look at the information that you're learning, sort it into a short-term/irrelevant and long-term/relevant pile. In the first semester, you think the didactics matter because you don't know any better. Then you start to see all the BS that's being fed to you and your brain should be setting up filters to prevent long term storage. Unfortunately, there's some people who still take everything their learned to heart in dental school, thinking that it is set in stone and unable to go beyond what they learned. This is what you're trying to avoid when you're in dental school. Again, this is from a perspective of a GP.

 

[BeggarsCantBeChoosers]

I think the assumption here is that good student = good dentist, which I don't think is the case. Selective learning works great in dental school because not everything in dental school is usable or even remotely correct. We have to learn lots of things in order to pass the exam and that's important - to pass the exam. The knowledge acquired doesn't always have relevance to the practice of dentistry. I was a massive crammer, I pump in lots of data, I dump lots of data during the examination to make room for new information, and what sticks are the ones that have some relevance to the practice of dentistry. When you got 15+ exams in a week, people really need to pick and choose their battles. I'm not going to learn 100% of the material for every subject. I don't have the time nor desire to try since I know that a lot of it is irrelevant. Goal is to pass all exams. Perhaps it is misleading to say that you should only learn certain things and this is definitely not the case. You have to learn to regurgitate lots of irrelevant information, you might learn it for the short term, but that's all it is... short term to pass a test. Store the relevant data in your moderate/long term memory. Discard the rest.

I know that I can't learn things very well when I don't see a point in it. There always has to be a point. Maybe it's my personality, but I think people can selectively learn things better that have some perceived relevance. To reiterate, academic success in dschool does not mean success in real world dentistry.

Edit: How do you know what's relevant? Going through dental school, you start to awaken to the big picture. Everything starts to fit together and you start to understand the world of dentistry, the variables involved in dx/tx, the human element, and so on... It should become your second nature to look at the information that you're learning, sort it into a short-term/irrelevant and long-term/relevant pile. In the first semester, you think the didactics matter because you don't know any better. Then you start to see all the BS that's being fed to you and your brain should be setting up filters to prevent long term storage. Unfortunately, there's some people who still take everything their learned to heart in dental school, thinking that it is set in stone and unable to go beyond what they learned. This is what you're trying to avoid when you're in dental school. Again, this is from a perspective of a GP.

I disagree with what you're saying. Are you saying it's okay to half*** things that you deemed don't matter, and only focus on the things that do? That's not the right way to approach anything in life. Success in dental school may not mean success in real world, but at least it gives you the work ethic to be successful in the real world, unlike being a "massive crammer" like you said.

 

[TanMan]

I disagree with what you're saying. Are you saying it's okay to half*** things that you deemed don't matter, and only focus on the things that do? That's not the right way to approach anything in life. Success in dental school may not mean success in real world, but at least it gives you the work ethic to be successful in the real world, unlike being a "massive crammer" like you said.

Ever heard of the old saying, it's not worth my time? There are definitely things that are not worth dedicating a ridiculous amount of time if the yields are low or not worth the input of time. A good work ethic is definitely important, but there's more to success than just a good work ethic. There's also strategic component of success as well. A good work ethic with no strategy just makes you a busy worker bee. Although you might be successful as a busy worker bee, you might not be as successful as you could be.

"Massive cramming" has its own relevant real-world strategy. By conditioning myself to cram, I am able to take in large and multiple inputs of data simultaneously and not get overwhelmed. Some things in life require real-time decision making, and by learning how to cram, I can process a lot of information in a relatively short period of time AND filter out irrelevant information simultaneously to make a quick informed decision. Now, did I know when I was cramming that it would have its own real-world applications? Hell no, but in hindsight, it gave me a huge advantage over my colleagues who feel "overwhelmed" with 4 patients in an hour.

 

[yappy]

I think the assumption here is that good student = good dentist, which I don't think is the case. Selective learning works great in dental school because not everything in dental school is usable or even remotely correct. We have to learn lots of things in order to pass the exam and that's important - to pass the exam. The knowledge acquired doesn't always have relevance to the practice of dentistry. I was a massive crammer, I pump in lots of data, I dump lots of data during the examination to make room for new information, and what sticks are the ones that have some relevance to the practice of dentistry. When you got 15+ exams in a week, people really need to pick and choose their battles. I'm not going to learn 100% of the material for every subject. I don't have the time nor desire to try since I know that a lot of it is irrelevant. Goal is to pass all exams. Perhaps it is misleading to say that you should only learn certain things and this is definitely not the case. You have to learn to regurgitate lots of irrelevant information, you might learn it for the short term, but that's all it is... short term to pass a test. Store the relevant data in your moderate/long term memory. Discard the rest.

I know that I can't learn things very well when I don't see a point in it. There always has to be a point. Maybe it's my personality, but I think people can selectively learn things better that have some perceived relevance. To reiterate, academic success in dschool does not mean success in real world dentistry.

Edit: How do you know what's relevant? Going through dental school, you start to awaken to the big picture. Everything starts to fit together and you start to understand the world of dentistry, the variables involved in dx/tx, the human element, and so on... It should become your second nature to look at the information that you're learning, sort it into a short-term/irrelevant and long-term/relevant pile. In the first semester, you think the didactics matter because you don't know any better. Then you start to see all the BS that's being fed to you and your brain should be setting up filters to prevent long term storage. Unfortunately, there's some people who still take everything their learned to heart in dental school, thinking that it is set in stone and unable to go beyond what they learned. This is what you're trying to avoid when you're in dental school. Again, this is from a perspective of a GP.

By definition, a good student masters the curriculum in preclinical and clinical years. Hence, they’re a good dentist. Or at least further down the path to becoming a good dentist than someone who did not master the clinical and preclinical curriculum. Agreed that everyone should update their knowledge and continue learning.

 

[TanMan]

By definition, a good student masters the curriculum in preclinical and clinical years. Hence, they’re a good dentist. Or at least further down the path to becoming a good dentist than someone who did not master the clinical and preclinical curriculum. Agreed that everyone should update their knowledge and continue learning.

I think this is under the assumption that the curriculum and what you're learning is actually correct/true/relevant to clinical practice. If the curriculum is not any of the above, then mastering the wrong information is detrimental to someone's professional growth.

 

[2TH MVR]

I can see what @TanMan is saying. There are alot of "questionable" courses in DS that seem to have no real use in the real world. Some marketing/business courses would have been helpful. I understand what he is saying.

But. You're learning to be a DOCTOR. If you are only picking and choosing "clinical practice" courses that seem relevant to you ... then dentistry starts to sound like a trade school (tooth mechanic). The other issue is how do you know which is relevant and which is not important? You are in DS. It's different if you've been out practicing for awhile.

The title DOCTOR means more than knowing how to properly irrigate a molar rct, order up some aligners, restorative, etc. You are an expert in diagnosis and treatment of the soft and hard tissues of the oral cavity.

 

[TanMan]

I can see what @TanMan is saying. There are alot of "questionable" courses in DS that seem to have no real use in the real world. Some marketing/business courses would have been helpful. I understand what he is saying.

But. You're learning to be a DOCTOR. If you are only picking and choosing "clinical practice" courses that seem relevant to you ... then dentistry starts to sound like a trade school (tooth mechanic). The other issue is how do you know which is relevant and which is not important? You are in DS. It's different if you've been out practicing for awhile.

The title DOCTOR means more than knowing how to properly irrigate a molar rct, order up some aligners, restorative, etc. You are an expert in diagnosis and treatment of the soft and hard tissues of the oral cavity.

This is why active learning is important. To be able to process the information given to you, look at it from many angles, and say, is this information useful in practice? Active learning in didactics and clinicals is important. There are questions that you should be thinking of when acquiring new information: for didactics - what is the relevance of this information and how can I incorporate it into my practice? + for clinicals - how do you perform procedure? what are the fundamental objectives of this procedure? what am I being taught and how can I improve upon it? how can I achieve the objectives of the procedure faster and more efficiently? What's available out in the market that will improve my procedural efficiency? Is there a deficiency in the market for a dental product? and so on...

If you're passively learning and just doing what you're taught, then definitely, you're just a tooth mechanic. If you are actively learning, incorporating what you've learned into your practice style for whatever reason/objective you have in your practice, that is what differentiates a doctor from a tooth mechanic. To be able to be presented with 100's of different clinical scenarios and instinctively know or be able to deduce a solution based on your existing algorithms and knowledgebase.... and no, I don't think you need every course in dental school to be able to do that.

Exams are a benchmark to test you on whether you knew something at some point in time. We all learned it at some point and we probably discarded a majority of it when we graduated dental school.

When you mention how to "properly irrigate a molar rct", if you look at it that way, then it's definitely toothmechanic territory. Now, ask yourself what are the objectives of the irrigants that we use in root canal therapy? You could write many many pages about the objectives and other tangents that are completely relevant to root canal therapy. For example, think about the (pharmaco)kinetics of NaOCl with respect to tissue dissolution. In chemistry, rates of reaction tend to increase as temp/conc increases. We can qualitatively assume that if we increase temp/conc, tissue dissolution increases, bacteriocidal effect increases too. However, then you need to take a look at the selectivity and effects on root dentin and periradicular tissue by increasing temp/conc. There's just a ton of variables to think about, and this is what doctoring is about, IMO - being able to think about what we do, why we do it, and how we can improve it. However, as doctors, I don't think there's ONE right way or wrong way to do things in many instances, there are just results.

 

[2TH MVR]

This is why active learning is important. To be able to process the information given to you, look at it from many angles, and say, is this information useful in practice? Active learning in didactics and clinicals is important. There are questions that you should be thinking of when acquiring new information: for didactics - what is the relevance of this information and how can I incorporate it into my practice? + for clinicals - how do you perform procedure? what are the fundamental objectives of this procedure? what am I being taught and how can I improve upon it? how can I achieve the objectives of the procedure faster and more efficiently? What's available out in the market that will improve my procedural efficiency? Is there a deficiency in the market for a dental product? and so on...

If you're passively learning and just doing what you're taught, then definitely, you're just a tooth mechanic. If you are actively learning, incorporating what you've learned into your practice style for whatever reason/objective you have in your practice, that is what differentiates a doctor from a tooth mechanic. To be able to be presented with 100's of different clinical scenarios and instinctively know or be able to deduce a solution based on your existing algorithms and knowledgebase.... and no, I don't think you need every course in dental school to be able to do that.

Exams are a benchmark to test you on whether you knew something at some point in time. We all learned it at some point and we probably discarded a majority of it when we graduated dental school.

When you mention how to "properly irrigate a molar rct", if you look at it that way, then it's definitely toothmechanic territory. Now, ask yourself what are the objectives of the irrigants that we use in root canal therapy? You could write many many pages about the objectives and other tangents that are completely relevant to root canal therapy. For example, think about the (pharmaco)kinetics of NaOCl with respect to tissue dissolution. In chemistry, rates of reaction tend to increase as temp/conc increases. We can qualitatively assume that if we increase temp/conc, tissue dissolution increases, bacteriocidal effect increases too. However, then you need to take a look at the selectivity and effects on root dentin and periradicular tissue by increasing temp/conc. There's just a ton of variables to think about, and this is what doctoring is about, IMO - being able to think about what we do, why we do it, and how we can improve it. However, as doctors, I don't think there's ONE right way or wrong way to do things in many instances, there are just results.

Again. We're talking about students in DS with no outside practice experience. I see your point that in practice you have learned what works and doesn't work. A dental student knows nothing. I cannot believe that a D1 or higher student can decipher what course(s) they should pay attention to and what not to as it pertains to future dental practicing.

You mention "properly irrigating a molar rct". As you said ... "There's just a ton of variables to think about, ............." Yes. It's those biological, pharmalogical, physical, chemical, mechanical, etc. etc. variables involved that require some prior (DS) knowledge in pharmacology, histology, immunology, microbiology, organic chemistry, dental materials, etc. etc.

Dental students are not equipped to pick and choose what courses they "think" will be relevant in the real world.

 

[Molar Whisperer]

Again. We're talking about students in DS with no outside practice experience. I see your point that in practice you have learned what works and doesn't work. A dental student knows nothing. I cannot believe that a D1 or higher student can decipher what course(s) they should pay attention to and what not to as it pertains to future dental practicing.

You mention "properly irrigating a molar rct". As you said ... "There's just a ton of variables to think about, ............." Yes. It's those biological, pharmalogical, physical, chemical, mechanical, etc. etc. variables involved that require some prior (DS) knowledge in pharmacology, histology, immunology, microbiology, organic chemistry, dental materials, etc. etc.

Dental students are not equipped to pick and choose what courses they "think" will be relevant in the real world.

Dental students can't pick and choose what they need to focus on. They need to focus on passing the Boards. It seemed that my school taught only 50% of the materials in the National Boards including a lot of ortho. The National Boards back in the late 90s covered a wide spectrum of subjects not relevant to the technical aspects of dentistry like "active ingredients in Tublicid." One of my instructors said that we need to be doctors of the mouth and not just technicians or "cabinet makers" (no offense to cabinet makers and carpenters...you guys are amazing).

 

[TanMan]

Dental students can't pick and choose what they need to focus on. They need to focus on passing the Boards. It seemed that my school taught only 50% of the materials in the National Boards including a lot of ortho. The National Boards back in the late 90s covered a wide spectrum of subjects not relevant to the technical aspects of dentistry like "active ingredients in Tublicid." One of my instructors said that we need to be doctors of the mouth and not just technicians or "cabinet makers" (no offense to cabinet makers and carpenters...you guys are amazing).

Maybe it was my school but everyone passed the boards in my class. I remember when Part I had scoring and it was relevant, if you got a 90, people would ask what happened?! No one cared about Part II because most everyone (if not everyone) that wanted to get into a residency got in and Part II didn't matter.

Again. We're talking about students in DS with no outside practice experience. I see your point that in practice you have learned what works and doesn't work. A dental student knows nothing. I cannot believe that a D1 or higher student can decipher what course(s) they should pay attention to and what not to as it pertains to future dental practicing.

You mention "properly irrigating a molar rct". As you said ... "There's just a ton of variables to think about, ............." Yes. It's those biological, pharmalogical, physical, chemical, mechanical, etc. etc. variables involved that require some prior (DS) knowledge in pharmacology, histology, immunology, microbiology, organic chemistry, dental materials, etc. etc.

Dental students are not equipped to pick and choose what courses they "think" will be relevant in the real world.

I think this is true for the DS1/DS2. In the very least, you must PASS all your classes. In the context of passing the exam, learn the material to pass. As the didactics die down in DS3/DS4 and you've taken the boards, most of it goes out the window. When in clinicals, learn from faculty with lots of real world experience. I was lucky to have a few part time faculty that confirmed that most of the clinical procedures in dschool was BS and showed me a better way (but not the best way) to do things.

This may sound bad, but the truth is you're learning most of this material to pass tests. Keep an open mind and when it comes to clinical procedures, if it feels tedious, there's probably a better way of doing it. Key example: Polysulfide-rubber base impression material.

 

[ESPN907]

When you are in dental school you have nothing else to do but dental school. There is no reason to selectively learn some things and not others. When you're in the preclinical years, learning basic science, you should 100% learn the material they're teaching you. When you're in clinic or simlab, that should be your focus.
The students who I saw struggling in dental school were the ones who wanted to focus on "important stuff" that their dad, uncle, or upper classmen told them was important. Well, these people didn't know **** because it's a rare person who will 100% learn some things but not others. You're either a good student or a poor student.

Lol the last sentence, “You either have a life outside of school or you don’t.”

 

[Ellatha]

I know this is a sort of old thread but since I have some experience on this topic I’ll give my opinion. I withdrew from dental school in my first semester on the cusp of failing:

A major reason I was failing was because I had an undiagnosed, serious mental illness. But even with that, I only studied a few hours a day outside of class; I SERIOUSLY under-estimated how much work dental school would be. I thought I could at least pass without studying every waking second. I was wrong.