Who Do you plan to Vote for in the Republican Primary?

[BLADEMDA]

Why is it that every argument about evolution starts w/the premise that creationism is correct and it's up to the other side to prove it isn't and that their idea is better? Where is the evidence for creationism? And don't give me some book that was created by man 2000 years ago as evidence. To say that the theory of evolution has holes is fine but don't forget there are much bigger holes in the theory of creationism.

We can agree to disagree. However, why is it every time someone states he/she doesn't believe in "evolution" that person is viewed as an idiot, ***** and discredited by the media?

I'm not posting to convince you Creationism is correct but rather point out the holes in the well entrenched view that Evolution is FACT. It isn't. There are too many holes in our current knowledge of "evolution" to call that theory fact.

I can no more convince you of Creationism than I can of God's existence. To deny the former is to deny the latter. The choice is yours. I also believe decisions have consequences.

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[Shufflin]

I'm an independent, but I predict Newt Gingrich - whom I've met - will take front seat for the GOP. In person he was very sharp and honest with his opinions. But you know it won't matter who the President is, because everything is dominated by lobby groups and the senate. You won't see change in this country until you impact lobbyists and senators. Markets fluctuate based on international market behavior and domestic economic predictions, not what the President does. So the President can be whomever you want him or her to be - it won't make a whole lot of difference. So the joke's on us.

 

[BLADEMDA]

I'm an independent, but I predict Newt Gingrich - whom I've met - will take front seat for the GOP. In person he was very sharp and honest with his opinions. But you know it won't matter who the President is, because everything is dominated by lobby groups and the senate. You won't see change in this country until you impact lobbyists and senators. Markets fluctuate based on international market behavior and domestic economic predictions, not what the President does. So the President can be whomever you want him or her to be - it won't make a whole lot of difference. So the joke's on us.

The NEXT President matters. He Matters a lot. We can turn things around before we become the next Italy.

 

[pgg]

With all due respect, the "mistake" Einstein spoke of was related to his work in General Relativity (on the cosmological constant) and not Quantum Mechanics ( a theory with which he never was comfortable )

Oops. You are, of course, correct.



BLADEMDA - I'll try to post more later, but here's the fundamental problem with creationists complaining about missing links.


Scientist: "Here are specimens A and B, from different points in time."

Creationist: "Oh no! There's a missing link between A and B! Evolution is false!"

Scientist: "Well, actually ... never mind. OK, I'll work on that missing link thing."

Time goes by. Behold! A fossil between A and B is found! We'll call it C. Now the physical evidence record has A --> C --> B.

Creationist: "Oh no! Now there are TWICE AS MANY missing links! There's a missing link between A and C, and another between C and B! Evolution is false!"

Scientist:


You may think I'm just being facetious here, and I am, a little, but this is how the debate has progressed for many decades now. The fact that your side remains dissatisfied with the endlessly growing and actually quite compelling fossil record (not to mention endlessly growing evidence from other disciplines) is not evidence against modern evolutionary theory.

Which, when viewed objectively and in its entirety, is about as much of a "theory" as the atomic "theory" of matter. I refer you back to the middle penguins.

 

[hoyden]

Why is it that every argument about evolution starts w/the premise that creationism is correct and it's up to the other side to prove it isn't and that their idea is better? Where is the evidence for creationism? And don't give me some book that was created by man 2000 years ago as evidence. To say that the theory of evolution has holes is fine but don't forget there are much bigger holes in the theory of creationism.

both are just theories - hypothesis, and neither is proven


since when the thread has gone to this stupid debate evolution vs creationism? anybody wants to start the discussion when the life starts?

 

[hoyden]

Cain should bail out too--no woman will vote for him. He will assure Obama of victory. IMHO.

I will

It is beyond my understanding how anybody could believe these "accusers" - the lie is written all over their faces

wait, those are, probably, the same people which believed Strauss-Kan has abused that maid, too

 

[pgg]

I'm an independent, but I predict Newt Gingrich - whom I've met - will take front seat for the GOP. In person he was very sharp and honest with his opinions.

I believe that. I also believe Gingrich has more baggage and closet skeletons than Cain.

We haven't heard much about them lately because he hasn't been a contender. You think we won't hear about this again and again if he becomes a threat?

The House voted overwhelmingly yesterday to reprimand House Speaker Newt Gingrich (R-Ga.) and order him to pay an unprecedented $300,000 penalty, the first time in the House's 208-year history it has disciplined a speaker for ethical wrongdoing.

Or any of his other 1990s shenanigans? His Contract-With-America wishiwashiness?

But you know it won't matter who the President is, because everything is dominated by lobby groups and the senate.

Health care reform is going before the Supreme Court. It won't be the last important issue they decide.

The ideological leanings of the guys who appoint Justices matter.

GWB and Obama may be two sides of the same spendy coin, but they did not appoint the same kind of judges.

 

[BLADEMDA]

Oops. You are, of course, correct.



BLADEMDA - I'll try to post more later, but here's the fundamental problem with creationists complaining about missing links.


Scientist: "Here are specimens A and B, from different points in time."

Creationist: "Oh no! There's a missing link between A and B! Evolution is false!"

Scientist: "Well, actually ... never mind. OK, I'll work on that missing link thing."

Time goes by. Behold! A fossil between A and B is found! We'll call it C. Now the physical evidence record has A --> C --> B.

Creationist: "Oh no! Now there are TWICE AS MANY missing links! There's a missing link between A and C, and another between C and B! Evolution is false!"

Scientist:


You may think I'm just being facetious here, and I am, a little, but this is how the debate has progressed for many decades now. The fact that your side remains dissatisfied with the endlessly growing and actually quite compelling fossil record (not to mention endlessly growing evidence from other disciplines) is not evidence against modern evolutionary theory.

Which, when viewed objectively and in its entirety, is about as much of a "theory" as the atomic "theory" of matter. I refer you back to the middle penguins.

I've got no issues with your fossils. Or your records. Or your firm belief in Science instead of God. Yes. You've pretty much made up your mind that God doesn't play a role in our being here. Fine. I disagree and hope God finds a place in your life. If not now then maybe later.

We don't need to beat this subject to death. You know where I stand and I know you won't even CONSIDER an alternative to Evolution. If you believe that Evolution and the new religion of Science has replaced the need for God in your life so be it. But, the irony in our discussion is no longer about those who believe in God being tolerant it's about those who profess Science as Lord and Master of the universe being completely opposed to anyone who disagrees with that point of view: Nothing but Ridicule and disdain for those who believe in HIM.

I believe it is God who is the Creator of all including the planet, universe, creatures and most of all, man. Do you believe it is all just some random act of nature? Life evolved from nothingness to become human beings? Where is the rational thought in that idea?

To sum it up my life is much better with God than without him. I'm not threatened or intimidated by those who want to falsely believe they evolved from some prehistoric monkey.

Years ago I too swallowed that line hook and sinker. I too made fun of those with Faith in the one true God. The truth has set me free as I hope it will you one day.

Peace,
Blade

 

[periopdoc]

There is no sense trying to convince you of the evidence. I have wasted too many finger strokes trying to convince individuals who were more open minded than you.

I used to be a believer. Went to c̶e̶m̶e̶t̶er̶y̶ seminary and was very closed minded about creationism/ evolution, biblical inerrancy etc. Then I read Rescuing the Bible from Fundamentalism: A Bishop Rethinks the Meaning of Scripture by John Shelby Spong. I struggled with it because it was so foreign to what I KNEW to be true. Ultimately however, I had to accept that Biblical inerrancy is not compatible with a basic modern understanding of reality.

When I allowed myself to actually question my beliefs and impartially examine the evidence for evolution (more biological than paleontological since I have more expertise in that area) I realized the evidence was overwhelmingly in support of evolution, even though the theory as we currently understand it does not fully explain the world as we know it. I also had to admit that deep down inside, I never truly believed the fairy tale.


At this point in time, I would say I am most closely aligned with Einstein when he wrote.

From the viewpoint of a Jesuit priest I am, of course, and have always been an atheist.... I have repeatedly said that in my opinion the idea of a personal God is a childlike one. You may call me an agnostic, but I do not share the crusading spirit of the professional atheist whose fervor is mostly due to a painful act of liberation from the fetters of religious indoctrination received in youth. I prefer an attitude of humility corresponding to the weakness of our intellectual understanding of nature and of our being.

although there are days when I feel more like the atheist crusader, mostly when I see some of the stupid **** religious people say or when I see "God's Ten Commandments" signs and I want to just plaster a big sign over it that says "Jesus ONE commandment - Love One Another as I Have Loved You."

I will leave you with this. We are both atheists... I just happen to believe in one fewer god than you do.

- pod

 

[ssmallz]

both are just theories - hypothesis, and neither is proven

That's exactly my point

 

[ssmallz]

both are just theories - hypothesis, and neither is proven

That's exactly my point

 

[BLADEMDA]

There is no sense trying to convince you of the evidence. I have wasted too many finger strokes trying to convince individuals who were more open minded than you.

I used to be a believer. Went to c̶e̶m̶e̶t̶er̶y̶ seminary and was very closed minded about creationism/ evolution, biblical inerrancy etc. Then I read Rescuing the Bible from Fundamentalism: A Bishop Rethinks the Meaning of Scripture by John Shelby Spong. I struggled with it because it was so foreign to what I KNEW to be true. Ultimately however, I had to accept that Biblical inerrancy is not compatible with a basic modern understanding of reality.

When I allowed myself to actually question my beliefs and impartially examine the evidence for evolution (more biological than paleontological since I have more expertise in that area) I realized the evidence was overwhelmingly in support of evolution, even though the theory as we currently understand it does not fully explain the world as we know it. I also had to admit that deep down inside, I never truly believed the fairy tale.


At this point in time, I would say I am most closely aligned with Einstein when he wrote.



although there are days when I feel more like the atheist crusader, mostly when I see some of the stupid **** religious people say or when I see "God's Ten Commandments" signs and I want to just plaster a big sign over it that says "Jesus ONE commandment - Love One Another as I Have Loved You."

I will leave you with this. We are both atheists... I just happen to believe in one fewer god than you do.

- pod

I'm sorry you've rejected FAITH. Perhaps, at a later point in life you will revisit the question. I think you still believe but have chosen to take this path for now.

As for being an Atheist... No I don't think you are one. It's easy to post disparaging remarks online but another to reject God on your death bed. The time will come in your life when a final decision will need to be made. Then and only then will you decide to take the path of rejecting the one true God.

I too have studied the Bible. No seminary School. No upbringing in Church.
Just a personal decision based on Faith and the Grace of God.

I don't see a need to discuss this topic any further on SDN. Your Faith and Belief in the one true God is a personal choice.

 

[periopdoc]

I know you won't even CONSIDER an alternative to Evolution...

I am happy to consider alternatives. Are you happy to consider alternatives to creationism? I suspect not since you essentially stated that a belief in God mandates a belief in creationism and you are unwilling to question the existence of God. The difficulty in questioning evolution is the reality that it is the underpinning of the vast majority of our, admittedly imperfect, understanding of our biological world. From microbiology to genetics to much of medicine to... we understand it through the framework of evolution and it is the theory that best fits the observable facts. I am open to an argument that God used evolution to make the world what it is today. Some statements in the Genesis creation story are eerily close to supporting that idea (if one discards Biblical inerrancy). I don't believe it, it may be a cop out for believers, but it seems to reasonably fit the current evidence (although I suppose it mandates a God who is quite the trickster and wants to leave a lot of false trails to lead you away from a belief in him/ her).

To sum it up my life is much better with God than without him.

I wish that I could say the same for me and my family. Let's just say that a belief in God has led to more pain, suffering, and turmoil than should be allowable by a just god. Perhaps he/ she exists and is as capricious, sadomasochistic and petty as he is painted to be in the Old Testament.

I'm sorry you've rejected FAITH. Perhaps, at a later point in life you will revisit the question.

I revisit the question every single day.

- pod

 

[pgg]

You know where I stand and I know you won't even CONSIDER an alternative to Evolution.

That's an odd thing to say. How do you know what beliefs I haven't considered in the past, and even today? I wish I could believe what you believe, it would make my life so much easier.

Nothing but Ridicule and disdain for those who believe in HIM.

My wife of ~15 years, who I love and respect, is a Christian who goes to church. She believes.

There is room for belief in a god or gods, without dismissing science and rational thought.

I'm not threatened or intimidated by those who want to falsely believe they evolved from some prehistoric monkey.

And here we have a classic creationist strawman. There is an incredibly important (and not even particularly subtle) difference between "evolving from monkeys" and "evolving from the same common ancestor as monkeys" ...

You may as well rail against Lamarck for all the relevance your argument has vs our current (imperfect) understanding of evolution.

Years ago I too swallowed that line hook and sinker. I too made fun of those with Faith in the one true God. The truth has set me free as I hope it will you one day.

I don't mock religious people. Except maybe the ones who put saddles on Triceratop statutes in their creation science museum. OK, I mock them.

Anyway, it's not the mocking that seems to bother them, so much as holding them to the same standard of intellectual honesty as everyone else.

 

[BLADEMDA]

I revisit the question every single day.

- pod

Glad to hear. There's still hope.

 

[Narcotized]

The "let them fail" attitude would have sunk the US into the greatest economic disaster in history, EVERY economist has said this was not an option.

Completely false. Plenty of economists don't believe in this nonsense.

And Obama did NOT start the "consumer economy"

Whoever said he did?? Just gonna put words in other people's mouth?

US citizens have the lowest savings in history combined with astronomical debt. We no longer make products, we merely invent then and manufacture them overseas for the sheep to buy. We cannot sustain our current consumerism based on the "service" industry, we need to go back to a production based economy.

And that isn't going to ever happen with the current president borrowing records amount of money to prop up the existing failing economy.

It amazes me how few people realize that this all started prior to Obama even being elected.

It amazes me you got to med school and can't read. Again putting words in my mouth.

TARP was started under Bush.

Gee, thanks for the news flash. Again, where did I say it wasn't??? Bush was also the worst president in history until Obama came along. Bush is not exactly the gold standard of presidents.

Obama bailed out the car companies and actually made the US money.

Estimates are we lost about 30-40 billion on auto bailouts. Turn off the msnbc and get your facts straight. You just lost ALL credibility.

I am not a fan of his continuation of TARP but to say its all his fault is being completely dishonest.

The only thing here dishonest is you. Nowhere did I say any of what you posted.

 

[BLADEMDA]

I don't mock religious people. Except maybe the ones who put saddles on Triceratop statutes in their creation science museum. OK, I mock them.

Anyway, it's not the mocking that seems to bother them, so much as holding them to the same standard of intellectual honesty as everyone else.

PGG,

If I misjudged your belief or belief system I apologize. My point is the vast majority of the Media and TV personalities do mock religious people. They portray them as backward, ignorant *****s.

Even Obama mocked them in San Francisco.

Faith isn't about proving the knowable. It's about the trusting in God and the unknowable. Faith and Science aren't exclusive. They go hand in hand as God created the miracle we know today as science. From DNA to the human eye it's absolutely amazing the system HE has put together.

 

[Narcotized]

Exactly. And that's why Americans won't look at Obama's policies and say "he's driving us into the ground."

The Hell they won't. The US economy of debt is an unsustainable ponzi scheme, very similar to Bernie Madoff. Ponzi's go on "forever" until there isn't enough money to sustain them. When the money ran out, Madoff's collapsed. Ours would have collapsed and a new solid economy on a real foundation would then have a chance to begin.

Instead, Obama buried the future with TRILLIONS of dollars of debt NEVER seen before in history to simply extend the ponzi a bit further. What's your answer when that money runs out?? More of the same??

The debt has taken an exponential insane growth spurt under Obama absolutely "driving us into the ground." You really think we can just exponentially increase government borrowing and spending forever??????

 

[Narcotized]

Why is it that every argument about evolution starts w/the premise that creationism is correct and it's up to the other side to prove it isn't and that their idea is better? Where is the evidence for creationism? And don't give me some book that was created by man 2000 years ago as evidence. To say that the theory of evolution has holes is fine but don't forget there are much bigger holes in the theory of creationism.

See, this is exactly why I can't vote. Lefty here makes perfect sense when it comes to right wing religious whackos, yet Lefty and the entire left insert all their agenda crap into economics and lose all sight of even the simpliest of math. It leaves me with with nobody to pull the lever for.

 

[periopdoc]

Glad to hear. There's still hope.

of course the ultimate reason that I will remain agnostic/ atheist is that I would have to solve the inevitable, ultimate quandry that arises. Which god? Even on my death bed (gods forbid I have one) I still won't know which god I should "turn my life over to."

As for being an Atheist... No I don't think you are one.

and I thought I was egotistical!

- pod

 

[Narcotized]

The NEXT President matters. He Matters a lot. We can turn things around before we become the next Italy.

I think you are deluding yourself. Every Republican has a "great" plan to be fiscally responsible about 20 years from now. None will impose the MASSIVE cuts (and probably increased taxes) needed now. If a Republican surprised me and became immediately fiscally responsible we would then have an extremely painful shortterm period that would bring out every left wing kook saying, "See, all that fiscal responsiblity is for the birds. We need Keynesian giveaways NOW to save us!!!"

This country is too spoiled, too stupid, and too lazy to understand we are broke and living off a credit card, and taking away that credit card involves MASSIVE pain. Nobody from either party will do that.

 

[BLADEMDA]

I think you are deluding yourself. Every Republican has a "great" plan to be fiscally responsible about 20 years from now. None will impose the MASSIVE cuts (and probably increased taxes) needed now. If a Republican surprised me and became immediately fiscally responsible we would then have an extremely painful shortterm period that would bring out every left wing kook saying, "See, all that fiscal responsiblity is for the birds. We need Keynesian giveaways NOW to save us!!!"

This country is too spoiled, too stupid, and too lazy to understand we are broke and living off a credit card, and taking away that credit card involves MASSIVE pain. Nobody from either party will do that.

Ron Paul. He is your man. He will cut 1 trillion dollars his first year in office.

 

[DHT]

See, this is exactly why I can't vote. Lefty here makes perfect sense when it comes to right wing religious whackos, yet Lefty and the entire left insert all their agenda crap into economics and lose all sight of even the simpliest of math. It leaves me with with nobody to pull the lever for.

Vote libertarian

 

[starsop93]

I understand your point of view. But, I disagree with it.

1. I bet if you truly study the science behind Evolution vs. Creationism you will be amazed at just how little evidence there is for either of them. However, those who believe in the former are called "scientists" while those who believe in the latter are called "Religious fanatics or nut jobs".

You've got to be kidding me?!?!?! You're a doctor, right? Evolution is the basis for all modern biology and medicine...

On the other hand, I agree with you that Creationists are religious fanatics and nut jobs.

 

[pgg]

PGG,

If I misjudged your belief or belief system I apologize.

No need to apologize, these are always touchy threads.

My point is the vast majority of the Media and TV personalities do mock religious people. They portray them as backward, ignorant *****s.

I'm really not sure I agree with that. On the contrary, I see a great deal of latitude and deference is given to religious people in general. The US is a nation where the majority is Christian, and there's nothing surprising or inappropriate about how the Christian faith permeates and influences our culture. There does need to be a line limiting its overt influence on the law however, and on the whole, speaking as an atheist, I think the US does that fairly well.

Some networks (eg Fox) are openly very pro-religion. Unless you're counting Muslims or non-religious people, that is.

Faith isn't about proving the knowable. It's about the trusting in God and the unknowable. Faith and Science aren't exclusive.

I can agree with that.

 

[matt30]

The Hell they won't. The US economy of debt is an unsustainable ponzi scheme, very similar to Bernie Madoff. Ponzi's go on "forever" until there isn't enough money to sustain them. When the money ran out, Madoff's collapsed. Ours would have collapsed and a new solid economy on a real foundation would then have a chance to begin.

Instead, Obama buried the future with TRILLIONS of dollars of debt NEVER seen before in history to simply extend the ponzi a bit further. What's your answer when that money runs out?? More of the same??

The debt has taken an exponential insane growth spurt under Obama absolutely "driving us into the ground." You really think we can just exponentially increase government borrowing and spending forever??????

I don't understand this position. Are you saying the economy should be worse than it is today? I don't think our economy is unfixable. That's a very defeatist attitude.

 

[matt30]

Woo! Hoo! Well I guess I tuned-in for some spirited conversation! Yee-hah!

To weigh in, in fairness, My Declaration of Conflicts:

I am a Christian. That is, I do believe that Jesus Christ is God's Son who became man, died for our sins, and rose from the dead. Period. I believe that to be factually true.

A. PGG seems like one of the brightest bulbs on this forum. With all due respect, the "mistake" Einstein spoke of was related to his work in General Relativity (on the cosmological constant) and not Quantum Mechanics ( a theory with which he never was comfortable )

B. With all due respect to Vector2, Newton's formulation of physics has been thoroughly refuted and is merely an approximation that has quite limited applicability.

C. It is important to define what we mean when we use the loaded term "evolution" and PGG makes a good point about the falsifiability of what is my position.

D. Kurt Goedel proved there are an infinite number of true statements which cannot be proven.

all IMHO

B and D are false.

Classical physics is widely used. Orders more than quantum mechanics. Everything from cars to weapons systems are designed using classical principles.

Goedel proved that no system of rules could verify within itself the validity of the system. You need a "higher order" (i.e. different) system to prove the validity of the lower system. This is problematic because there is a truth that exists that the lower order system cannot prove.

I wrote out an example but it's hard too hard to grasp if you haven't taken a course in logic.

The essence of Goedel discovery is that we can either create a system of logic that will sometimes produce wrong answers, or we create a system in which it is impossible to tell whether some statement follows logically from the premises.

 

[pgg]

Exponential growth curves look scary and are often used to dramatic effect.

The dirty little secret of exponential growth though, from a lies / damn lies / statistics perspective, is that exponential curves always look the same, regardless of the chosen x-axis range. They ALWAYS look like things used to be OK, and are just now going to hell.

Consider exponential debt growth of 10% in an imaginary Excel nation starting with $1 borrowed in year 1:

Looks like the citizens let things get away from themselves about 25 years ago, and they're positively screwed at 100! But wait ...

It's 200 years later, and the shape of the curve looks exactly the same. Long, flattish area to the left, abrupt increase to the right, implying that they were OK until ... 25 years ago.



I basically agree 100% with you about debt levels and unsustainable borrowing and spending, and I'm not denying that there's a problem.

I'm just saying, exponential growth curves are dramatic, but no matter where you are on the curve, it ALWAYS looks like things JUST went to hell. So maybe as a decision making tool, they're not helpful.

 

[imfrankie]

B and D are false.

Classical physics is widely used. Orders more than quantum mechanics. Everything from cars to weapons systems are designed using classical principles.

Goedel proved that no system of rules could verify within itself the validity of the system. You need a "higher order" (i.e. different) system to prove the validity of the lower system. This is problematic because there is a truth that exists that the lower order system cannot prove.

I wrote out an example but it's hard too hard to grasp if you haven't taken a course in logic.

The essence of Goedel discovery is that we can either create a system of logic that will sometimes produce wrong answers, or we create a system in which it is impossible to tell whether some statement follows logically from the premises.

While your first sentence is true, second is a nonsense statement, and third is a generalization not true in all cases. ( counterexample: GPS systems rely on the special theory of relativity ); they, nevertheless, do not refute my assertion in B, which is a statement of fact. Newton's formulation is not true. Turn on your lightbulb when you study them there law books.

Your second and fourth paragraphs support my laypersons version of D whether true or not.

I'm not sure about your third paragraph, except the part about it being hard to grasp.

Interestingly--at least to me--south of the Mason-Dixon line the pronunciation of the word "lawyer" sounds just like the word "liar." Ain't that somethin?

 

[Narcotized]

I don't understand this position. Are you saying the economy should be worse than it is today? I don't think our economy is unfixable. That's a very defeatist attitude.

I'm saying our debt driven consumer economy is a farce that needs to be dismantled and rebuilt. It isn't defeatist. It's reality. If you think we can consume infinitely on exponentially increasing debt, you aren't being an optimist; you are simply in denial.

 

[Narcotized]

Exponential growth curves look scary and are often used to dramatic effect.

The dirty little secret of exponential growth though, from a lies / damn lies / statistics perspective, is that exponential curves always look the same, regardless of the chosen x-axis range. They ALWAYS look like things used to be OK, and are just now going to hell.

Consider exponential debt growth of 10% in an imaginary Excel nation starting with $1 borrowed in year 1:

I'm just saying, exponential growth curves are dramatic, but no matter where you are on the curve, it ALWAYS looks like things JUST went to hell. So maybe as a decision making tool, they're not helpful.

Point taken. But it isn't simply a matter of our debt situation gradually getting worse at a steady rate. It has taken a horrendous turn beginning with the mythical Reagan years and hitting ultimate stupidity under Obama.

Notice the reversal of fortune beginning with the Reagan credit card economy. Stopping that now will take a trememndous amount of courage from politicians which they clearly lack. Clowns like Obama say stuff like, "I'm watching you super committee.... but please let me blow another 450 billion dollars on crap first." There is no political will or pressure to be responsible.

Why don't I see this country doing the right thing? Just look at this website of the most intelligent of Americans that think the credit card infinite borrowing consumer economy is wonderful. If the brightest are clueless, what do you expect from the dumbest that are addicted to the freebies??

 

[Narcotized]

Notice in the last graph how WW2 practically broke the piggy bank (despite nonsense rhetoric that it saved us from the depression). When did we begin to pay down that massive debt? We paid it down after WW2 when government spending greatly DECREASED (so much for Keynesian foolishness).

Clear as day. Government spending was slashed post WW2 and the economy prospered and began to lower the national debt. Fast forward to today. Look at the Obama spike in government spending versus GDP. It is practically at WW2 levels.

Look at my previous graph. Same scary scenario. WW2 came to an end and we were able to pay down debt. Our debt now is entitlements that have no ending like WW2. It will take political will and national courage to stop stealing from the future for an easier today. So far, I've seen nothing to get us to those post-WW2 drastically decreased government spending levels.

Yes, if you can read graphs, Obama is running us into the ground.

 

[ssmallz]

See, this is exactly why I can't vote. Lefty here makes perfect sense when it comes to right wing religious whackos, yet Lefty and the entire left insert all their agenda crap into economics and lose all sight of even the simpliest of math. It leaves me with with nobody to pull the lever for.

I was not endorsing Obama's policies, just trying to give perspective of how I feel the average american Joe/Jane will look at the world and cast his/her vote next November. All I'm trying to do is give perspective. It's unfortunate that most of the GOP candidates are absolutely electable in the general election.

The republican philosophy seems to be "Let's appease the base". So you select for people that will galvanize the base you end up with exactly who you've got running, right wing zealots who act like talk radio personalities and see the world as black and white. These candidates look great to the base because they typify exactly what the base stands for however, when you zoom out on the american population you realize that most people don't think or act like the base (either dem or repub) and you need to appeal to that middle ground to get elected.

 

[BLADEMDA]

I was not endorsing Obama's policies, just trying to give perspective of how I feel the average american Joe/Jane will look at the world and cast his/her vote next November. All I'm trying to do is give perspective. It's unfortunate that most of the GOP candidates are absolutely electable in the general election.

The republican philosophy seems to be "Let's appease the base". So you select for people that will galvanize the base you end up with exactly who you've got running, right wing zealots who act like talk radio personalities and see the world as black and white. These candidates look great to the base because they typify exactly what the base stands for however, when you zoom out on the american population you realize that most people don't think or act like the base (either dem or repub) and you need to appeal to that middle ground to get elected.

 

[Apollyon]

You know why Romney won't get elected? Let me tell you. It's because he's Mormon. About 7.7 million black folks voted for Obama. There are about 5.8 million Mormons in the US. 2.7 million people live in Utah, and 68% of them are Mormon, meaning about 1.8 million in the state. In the states with a percentage of Mormon population exceeding 5%, namely, AZ, HI, ID, NV, UT, and WY, there are a total of 31 electoral votes. In 2008, NV and HI went Democratic, for 9 electoral votes, and I can tell you affirmatively that HI will vote again for Obama.

Now, what else? There will be someone, somewhere, that will start anti-Mormon rhetoric if Romney gets the nomination, which the Democratic party will denounce. At the same time, it is likely that they will be behind it. There aren't enough Mormons to swing the vote, even if they voted as a bloc. The top 10 states where they are most highly represented as percent of the electorate, for the majority part, already go Republican (#1,2,3,5,7,8).

It's been emphasized that, if a candidate wins NY, PA, MI, OH, IL, FL, TX, and CA, they're well on the way to winning it all. TX will go Republican again in 2012. No Republican has ever won the presidency without winning Ohio. Obama won Ohio by 4.6%, and 0.5% of the state is Mormon. In 2008, only 5 states with 10 or more electoral votes went Republican.

So, Romney will have to counter that he is a "cult member", and that will encumber him. This is a bigger leap than electing Kennedy as a Catholic in 1960.

 

[ssmallz]

Totally agree w/you on this one blade, the only republican who has a chance in the general election is Romney. The problem though is that the republicans don't realize this yet and instead of positioning him as the front runner and trying to build him up as this great person they keep trying to bad mouth him and tear him down for all his policies while trying to find someone else they can try to elect. They need to embrace the fact that Mitt Romney is the only electable candidate left and start figuring out how to sell him to the general public.

They should play on the fact that Romney was governor of Massachusetts so he has leadership experience. They should focus on the fact that he passed health care reform in Mass. Why? Because that's what is going to sway the independent voters. If we learned anything from Obamacare it's that people want "free health care" so instead of tearing the guy down for it, they should embrace it and pander to the voters. That's the beauty of campaign promises, they are just that. Promise this and promise that, get elected, then do what you want. It worked with Bush, worked w/Obama, and has worked w/every elected official since the dawn of time. Instead of trying to appease the base, appease the center when you campaign and make policy that appeases the base. Otherwise you end up w/candidates who are so far left or right that they become unelectable.

 

[ssmallz]

You know why Romney won't get elected? Let me tell you. It's because he's Mormon. About 7.7 million black folks voted for Obama. There are about 5.8 million Mormons in the US. 2.7 million people live in Utah, and 68% of them are Mormon, meaning about 1.8 million in the state. In the states with a percentage of Mormon population exceeding 5%, namely, AZ, HI, ID, NV, UT, and WY, there are a total of 31 electoral votes. In 2008, NV and HI went Democratic, for 9 electoral votes, and I can tell you affirmatively that HI will vote again for Obama.

Now, what else? There will be someone, somewhere, that will start anti-Mormon rhetoric if Romney gets the nomination, which the Democratic party will denounce. At the same time, it is likely that they will be behind it. There aren't enough Mormons to swing the vote, even if they voted as a bloc. The top 10 states where they are most highly represented as percent of the electorate, for the majority part, already go Republican (#1,2,3,5,7,8).

It's been emphasized that, if a candidate wins NY, PA, MI, OH, IL, FL, TX, and CA, they're well on the way to winning it all. TX will go Republican again in 2012. No Republican has ever won the presidency without winning Ohio. Obama won Ohio by 4.6%, and 0.5% of the state is Mormon. In 2008, only 5 states with 10 or more electoral votes went Republican.

So, Romney will have to counter that he is a "cult member", and that will encumber him. This is a bigger leap than electing Kennedy as a Catholic in 1960.

I don't think Romney being morman will matter in the general election. The dems would never run a campaign add attacking religious freedom b/c that's their base. The only people that would care are the far right Christian's who are already on the republican bandwaggon anyway. The independents likely won't care and have far more important issues than what religion their candidate is, don't forget, they just elected a black guy, I think they can handle a Morman

 

[Apollyon]

I don't think Romney being morman will matter in the general election. The dems would never run a campaign add attacking religious freedom b/c that's their base. The only people that would care are the far right Christian's who are already on the republican bandwaggon anyway. The independents likely won't care and have far more important issues than what religion their candidate is, don't forget, they just elected a black guy, I think they can handle a Morman

But, like I say, it will come up, the Democrats will denounce it, and, yet, it will stay on the table. Look how Obama had to fight the "Muslim" thing. I'm tellin' ya now!

 

[amyl]

i have to agree, romney is the only electable republican candidate. i love ron paul but i will be furious if he enters the race as an independent and pulls republican votes and obama gets re-elected. hermain cain was interesting, i donated money to his campaign... mostly because i think we need a business man right now and I don't give a sh_t that he doesn't know what obama did in libya but it makes him unelectable, period, end of story -- obamas cash heavy operation and political machine will kill him... same w newt, like him but they will kill him. I hope cain stays in politics, maybe gets some experience at a smaller level than president.
this race really really matters. i actually do believe obama to be on par with the anti-christ, I dislike him personally and politically that much. either way though our current way of doing things is unsustainable.... the end will come, i just don't know if we can survive another four years of this sh-t without becoming italy, etc. first.
we already are a socialist country -- government runs business, business subsidies and does pick winners and losers... 37 ingredients in twinkies are made with government subsidies -- now thats some dumb sh-t my tax dollars are paying for.
i have had enough -- romney is our guy 'cause hes the only one that can beat obama... time to get behind him

 

[matt30]

this race really really matters. i actually do believe obama to be on par with the anti-christ, I dislike him personally and politically that much.

The anti-christ? Seriously? The world will continute to revolve no matter who wins.

 

[Narcotized]

The anti-christ? Seriously?

I agree. The Anti-Christ is going to feel incredibly insulted being compared to Obama.

 

[Per4mer8]

I agree. The Anti-Christ is going to feel incredibly insulted being compared to Obama.

Lol. Probably a little far but liberal/socialist Manchurian candidate is plausible.....

 

[periopdoc]

In the past 10,000 years there have been roughly 10,000 religions and 1,000 different gods. What are the chances that one group of people discovered the One True God while everyone else believed in 9,999 false gods? A likelier explanation is that all gods and religion are socially and psychologically constructed. We created gods.

- Michael Shermer​

- pod

 

[periopdoc]

and lest you think I am a total ass... If my patients request that I pray with them, I respect them and hold hands, bow my head and close my eyes. My wife is a Christian and I do the same when she wants to bless the meal etc. If my kids decide to pursue a life of faith instead of a life of doubt, I will explain to them why I feel differently, but they are welcome to follow their own path. My son certainly loves the Sunday school fairy tales at this point.

- pod

 

[vector2]

PGG,
Faith and Science aren't exclusive. They go hand in hand as God created the miracle we know today as science. From DNA to the human eye it's absolutely amazing the system HE has put together.

I was reading some Miller today and the following passage made me chuckle when I reflected upon this thread. Perhaps you should ask them to put in a correction in the next edition

Wakefulness

Protecting the neural systems responsible for generating wakefulness is so fundamental to survival that evolution has distributed its expression across multiple and partially redundant systems, each contributing in a unique, but nonessential, way to promotion and maintenance of wakefulness. Specific centers in the brain alter their electrical output in proportion to the organism's arousal state. Among these regions, noradrenergic neurons of the locus ceruleus (LC), histaminergic neurons of the tuberomammillary nucleus (TMN), serotonergic neurons of the dorsal and median raphe nuclei (RN), and the newly recognized population of dopaminergic neurons in the ventral periaqueductal gray (vPAG) matter[17] are all monoaminergic centers that display arousal state–dependent firing patterns ( Fig. 11-4 ) (for review see Jones[18]).

 

[TheBlend]

1. Mitt Romney will be the Republican nominee and will lose to Obama.

2. Despite all of the "Obama is the worst president ever" comments, the only supossed justification is the current debt level and labels of socialist etc...

3. When one examines the debt it becomes obvious, that without the meltdown of 2008 caused by De-Regulation of the housing market (both parties guilty), the spending would not have been necessary.

4. It was necessary and every serious economist agrees. The major criticism of the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009 is that it wasn't large enough to keep unemployment below 9% as "promised" because it was a majority and thus contained too many tax cuts (that even reaganomics arcitect David Stockman who was the Director of the Office of Management and Budget under Ronald Reagan agrees) that don't work, just as (he also agrees) reagonomics doesn't work.

5. If you want to make a real case against evolution, you should really try understanding it first. Here's an easy way: http://www.youtube.com/user/potholer54?blend=1&ob=4#g/c/DB23537556D7AADB

6. He also does a solid job explaining climate change: http://www.youtube.com/user/potholer54?blend=1&ob=4#g/c/A4F0994AFB057BB8

7. Einstein was an agnostic he said "It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it"

8. I welcome discussion on any and all points made above.

 

[BLADEMDA]

- Michael Shermer​

- pod

This thread was supposed to be about politics. Please feel free to start one on Evolution, God, Buddha, etc. My posts were meant simply to state the Religious "right" aren't *****s or fanatics. They are looking for a candidate who shares their belief system. The far "left" does the same thing as far as socialism.

As for which God you should choose the answer is simple:

The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. The only one true God.

Peace,
Blade

 

[vector2]

My posts were meant simply to state the Religious "right" aren't *****s or fanatics.

46 Percent of Mississippi Republicans Want Interracial Marriage Banned

40% of Americans believe God created human beings pretty much in their present form at one time within the last 10,000 years or so

Pat Robertson thinks Haitians' "pact with the devil" brought on their earthquake

Saudi Religious-Police lock school doors and allow 15 girls to burn to death because they weren't wearing their headscarves and robes


Herman Cain: "We need a leader, not a reader"

 

[periopdoc]

The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. The only one true God.

Peace,
Blade

So Islaam, Judaism, or Christianity? Which mutually exclusive subsect? The iterations are infinite.

-pod

 

[BLADEMDA]

Faith is a personal thing; a relationship between God and you. Which religion is less important that your search for Faith and that relationship. I'm confident if you honestly search for HIM He will find you.

Judaism and Christianity are two sides of the same coin. Both worship the same God;but only Christ can grant you eternal life and forgiveness of Sin through his Blood.

Remember it isn't about religion or church; it's about your personal relationship/walk with God.