scudrunner

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I just got verified after about 5 weeks wohoo!

So my first mcat attempt was 25M, second attempt 24Q...

(3.6 overall, 3.45 science, extensive volunteer, work, research and shadowing experience)

I know this is on the lower end of the averages for schools. I am curious to others out there who made it into DO school with similar lower mcat scores?
www.mdapplicants.com
 

elftown

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i thought the DO average was a 25. plus your gpa is above average. i'm sure you'll get in somewhere as long as the rest of your application doesn't suck. good luck! :)
 

cubicw86

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Don't use mdapplicants, there are people out there who spend there time doing useless things like posting false info there.

Your GPA is good and your MCAT is consider average for DO. I personally think, DO school look at your GPA more than your mcat. I usually see people get accepted with a great GPA and an below average MCAT, but hardly see the other way around.
 

droogdoc

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Don't use mdapplicants, there are people out there who spend there time doing useless things like posting false info there.

Your GPA is good and your MCAT is consider average for DO. I personally think, DO school look at your GPA more than your mcat. I usually see people get accepted with a great GPA and an below average MCAT, but hardly see the other way around.
I hope that's not the case with me!! My GPA is somewhat average due to a variety of issues during undergrad. But I have a solid MCAt and great verbal score. I was hoping that this would show I do have good analytical skills and can comprehend complex scientific concepts.

I have 3 interviews so far so i must have done something right!!!
 

cubicw86

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I hope that's not the case with me!! My GPA is somewhat average due to a variety of issues during undergrad. But I have a solid MCAt and great verbal score. I was hoping that this would show I do have good analytical skills and can comprehend complex scientific concepts.

I have 3 interviews so far so i must have done something right!!!

OMG do share your stats. I too need some encouragement. I hardly find anyone with average or low GPA with awsome/solid MCAT get interview or acceptance..
 

ShyRem

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I can tell you with absolute certainty (personal first hand knowledge) that it is possible to get into medical schools, both MD and DO, with an MCAT less than 25 and a GPA less than 3.5. These people tend to be absolutely tops in charm and sweet-talk. About half of such people that I know personally didn't make it through in the normal four years, and a few didn't make it at all. Occassionally you'll find one of those low-stats people honor every course and excel, but that is rare.

I can also tell you there are people with over 3.5 GPAs and over 30 MCAT that don't get accepted to any school (and they applied broadly, not just schools like Harvard or Johns Hopkins).
 

Jamers

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I can tell you with absolute certainty (personal first hand knowledge) that it is possible to get into medical schools, both MD and DO, with an MCAT less than 25 and a GPA less than 3.5. These people tend to be absolutely tops in charm and sweet-talk. About half of such people that I know personally didn't make it through in the normal four years, and a few didn't make it at all. Occassionally you'll find one of those low-stats people honor every course and excel, but that is rare.

I can also tell you there are people with over 3.5 GPAs and over 30 MCAT that don't get accepted to any school (and they applied broadly, not just schools like Harvard or Johns Hopkins).
Never thought of myself as tops in charm and sweet-talk. Actually pretty sure a few SDNers would come out to completely vote 'no' on that for me :) but thanks. haha.

Didn't have a low GPA but a low MCAT indeed. It is possible, apply broadly and just be yourself (no charm or sweet-talk needed). As for top of class, well I am about your average student (I think I am just too lazy) but my friend who scored a 23 and goes to the same school is top 10% of our class and scored a 714 on his Step I. He is crazy devoted though and, like Shy said, an exception to the rule.
 

cubicw86

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I can tell you with absolute certainty (personal first hand knowledge) that it is possible to get into medical schools, both MD and DO, with an MCAT less than 25 and a GPA less than 3.5. These people tend to be absolutely tops in charm and sweet-talk. About half of such people that I know personally didn't make it through in the normal four years, and a few didn't make it at all. Occassionally you'll find one of those low-stats people honor every course and excel, but that is rare.

I can also tell you there are people with over 3.5 GPAs and over 30 MCAT that don't get accepted to any school (and they applied broadly, not just schools like Harvard or Johns Hopkins).

Heheh I do agree that if you have charm, you get through :). However, admissions committees will look at your stats before granting you an interview. If your stats are below, not even charm can save you because you wouldn't be granted an interview.
I browsed through almost all the SDN forum and came to the conclusion that If one's GPA is around 3.5, then he or she can get an mcat score of 25 or alittle lower and will most likely be granted an interview. If their GPA is lower than 3.5, but higher than 3.0 then their MCAT will have to be 27 or higher. People with below 3.0 will just have to pray, sigh. These assumed stats only applies to Osteopathic. Allopathic schools are alittle bit trickier and harsher.
 

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lots of misinformation in this thread.

- the ppl with real low stats who get in are ppl who are older, generally came from another career, etc. they get in because the adcom likes their "life experience."

- keep in mind those MCATs and GPAs we are given for schools are the AVERAGE numbers. tons of ppl get in with lower numbers. you never, EVER want to bank you'll be a lucky case. you really shouldn't apply to a school unless you meet their averages.

- as for being accepted to DO schools, I think many of you underestimate yourselves. DO admissions is so much easier than MD. you can do it, for sure! also, don't think DO is inferior to MD in admissions. I definitely think the top 50% of DO students could have gotten into an MD school. Also, I'd say, at least the bottom 25% of MD students could have easily been forced to DO but got lucky to get into an MD. MDs who talk trash on DOs annoy me. Especially at my state school...easily HALF of the MD students are no more "qualified" than half of DO students.
 

cubicw86

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lots of misinformation in this thread.

- the ppl with real low stats who get in are ppl who are older, generally came from another career, etc. they get in because the adcom likes their "life experience."

- keep in mind those MCATs and GPAs we are given for schools are the AVERAGE numbers. tons of ppl get in with lower numbers. you never, EVER want to bank you'll be a lucky case. you really shouldn't apply to a school unless you meet their averages.

- as for being accepted to DO schools, I think many of you underestimate yourselves. DO admissions is so much easier than MD. you can do it, for sure! also, don't think DO is inferior to MD in admissions. I definitely think the top 50% of DO students could have gotten into an MD school. Also, I'd say, at least the bottom 25% of MD students could have easily been forced to DO but got lucky to get into an MD. MDs who talk trash on DOs annoy me. Especially at my state school...easily HALF of the MD students are no more "qualified" than half of DO students.
that is very encouraging of you to say, but if you read more post about the whole GPA vs MCAT on SDN and other forums, you will come to the conclusion that numbers (GPA and MCAT) is reality. Also Do is not wayy easier to get in than MD. DO place less emphasis on the MCAT, and more on GPA. your GPA still have to be close to 3.5, like in the 3.4 range.

I have to say, it is annoying that people talk trash about DO, I agree with you there. The reason Do has it hard is because MD education have been around far longer than DO, so they get more credibility. Plus Do cant be practice in all places, but MD can. Also MD have easier time getting match into certain residency than DO. The worse part is, DO learn everything that an MD learns and on top of that Do have to take extra courses and extra 100 hours of training in manuel manipulation. Even though in actuality a Do would be more experience than an MD, but MD is more praised upon. Sigh I hate reality.
 
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that is very encouraging of you to say, but if you read more post about the whole GPA vs MCAT on SDN and other forums, you will come to the conclusion that numbers (GPA and MCAT) is reality. Also Do is not wayy easier to get in than MD. DO place less emphasis on the MCAT, and more on GPA. your GPA still have to be close to 3.5, like in the 3.4 range.

I have to say, it is annoying that people talk trash about DO, I agree with you there. The reason Do has it hard is because MD education have been around far longer than DO, so they get more credibility. Plus Do cant be practice in all places, but MD can.
Incorrect. DOs have full recognition in something like 47 countries. Contrary to popular misconceptions, a US MD is not recognized by all countries. I don't know the number (I'm sure someone will post it), but it certainly isn't a carte blanche license to practice medicine everywhere in the world.

Also MD have easier time getting match into certain residency than DO. The worse part is, DO learn everything that an MD learns and on top of that Do have to take extra courses and extra 100 hours of training in manuel manipulation. Even though in actuality a Do would be more experience than an MD, but MD is more praised upon. Sigh I hate reality.
Also incorrect. DOs have their own, protected, residencies. It's no easier to become a neurosurgeon, for example, as an MD than it is as a DO.
 

Just Joshin

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lots of misinformation in this thread.

- the ppl with real low stats who get in are ppl who are older, generally came from another career, etc. they get in because the adcom likes their "life experience."

- keep in mind those MCATs and GPAs we are given for schools are the AVERAGE numbers. tons of ppl get in with lower numbers. you never, EVER want to bank you'll be a lucky case. you really shouldn't apply to a school unless you meet their averages.

- as for being accepted to DO schools, I think many of you underestimate yourselves. DO admissions is so much easier than MD. you can do it, for sure! also, don't think DO is inferior to MD in admissions. I definitely think the top 50% of DO students could have gotten into an MD school. Also, I'd say, at least the bottom 25% of MD students could have easily been forced to DO but got lucky to get into an MD. MDs who talk trash on DOs annoy me. Especially at my state school...easily HALF of the MD students are no more "qualified" than half of DO students.
Maybe they "talk trash" because of misconceptions like yours that DO admissions are so much easier than MD. I'm not surprised you think that since you once posted that you're essentially cream of the crop and DO schools would come after you. Just because the averages are lower doesn't mean they're easier. DO schools just put emphasis on different things than MD.
 

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There aren't that many residence for DO, so Do students have to apply for same residency as the MDs are applying i. MDs have more advantage in getting matched up in the residency that they want.

for example: an MD will have an easier time to match into a neurosurgery field than a DO.

DO is more geared towards primary care and internal medicine. If you wanna specialize or do surgery, DO is not a good option, but its still possible.

The above info I got from the DO I shadowed and from medical students I talk to.

As for Do lincencing, i think I was wrong for saying that DO can't practice everywhere. I got that information from my anatomy professor about MD VS DO. Im sorry :(
 

ShyRem

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I have yet to find a single medical school, whether it be DO, MD, or MBBS (I think that's the overseas designation for some country), actually gear an entire curriculum towards getting their students into any particular specialty such as neurosurgery. EVERY curriculum is based on a general medical education. Find me ONE school anywhere that has their entire curriculum structured towards any particular specialty such as nephrology, neurosurgery, pulmonology, anesthesia, etc. There isn't one. Every medical school gives a good general medical education --- thus the perfect makings of primary care. What students choose to do with that is something else entirely.

Now as for the sweet-talk, Jamers I always thought you were pretty sweet-talkin'. ;) I do however absolutely know someone who got into an MD school with a sub-3.0 and a sub-25 MCAT, and someone who got into a DO school with the same stats. In each case, they called frequently, begged for interviews, called Deans of the schools, knew every secretary's name, wrote letters, and basically ran a campaign for an interview. It paid off for both of them - they got their interview and an acceptance.
 

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There aren't that many residence for DO, so Do students have to apply for same residency as the MDs are applying i. MDs have more advantage in getting matched up in the residency that they want.

for example: an MD will have an easier time to match into a neurosurgery field than a DO.

DO is more geared towards primary care and internal medicine. If you wanna specialize or do surgery, DO is not a good option, but its still possible.
I'd look at some 2009 match lists. They are pretty broad-spectrum and comparable to allopathic match lists. The landscape of osteopathic medicine is catching up.
 

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*siiighhh* okay let's not make this a DO vs MD debate. all are great doctors!

however,

DO admissions is certainly easier than MD admissions. To say otherwise shows lack of knowledge on the two admissions processes. I'm really not going to get into that debate. If you want an answer, go pick up any admissions book. Compare the average MCATs, average GPAs, % of applicants accepted, etc., then comeback here.

as for residencies, the other guy is right. DOs definitely have fewer options than MDs. there are some DO residencies, but you see most DOs trying to get into allopathic residencies. some doors are definitely closed to DOs simply for their title. I don't agree with that sytem. it's stupid, but it's the reality. also, for you even to say DOs can be matched to neurosurgery just as easily as MDs is, well, ignorant on your part hehe. go do the research dude.

at the end of the day, everyone is doctors! DOs can certainly match to the most competitive residencies. if you look at the percentage who do match, though, it's like the top 2% of the DO class. it's possible, but chances aren't great.

for primary care, DOs definitely have no problem. I want to do primary care, so I don't care if I am MD or DO.
 
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*siiighhh* okay let's not make this a DO vs MD debate. all are great doctors!

however,

DO admissions is certainly easier than MD admissions. To say otherwise shows lack of knowledge on the two admissions processes. I'm really not going to get into that debate. If you want an answer, go pick up any admissions book. Compare the average MCATs, average GPAs, % of applicants accepted, etc., then comeback here.

as for residencies, the other guy is right. DOs definitely have fewer options than MDs. there are some DO residencies, but you see most DOs trying to get into allopathic residencies. some doors are definitely closed to DOs simply for their title. I don't agree with that sytem. it's stupid, but it's the reality. also, for you even to say DOs can be matched to neurosurgery just as easily as MDs is, well, ignorant on your part hehe. go do the research dude.

at the end of the day, everyone is doctors! DOs can certainly match to the most competitive residencies. if you look at the percentage who do match, though, it's like the top 2% of the DO class. it's possible, but chances aren't great.

for primary care, DOs definitely have no problem. I want to do primary care, so I don't care if I am MD or DO.
Wrong. You have a clear misconception about what it takes to become a neurosurgeon, and what the application process truly involves. Dividing the number of applicants by the number accepted is HARDLY informative about what it means to become accepted to a neurosurgical residency. Or any residency for that matter.

BTW, I've already been accepted to medical school. You're the one who needs to do the research. I've already done mine.
 

cubicw86

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I have yet to find a single medical school, whether it be DO, MD, or MBBS (I think that's the overseas designation for some country), actually gear an entire curriculum towards getting their students into any particular specialty such as neurosurgery. EVERY curriculum is based on a general medical education. Find me ONE school anywhere that has their entire curriculum structured towards any particular specialty such as nephrology, neurosurgery, pulmonology, anesthesia, etc. There isn't one. Every medical school gives a good general medical education --- thus the perfect makings of primary care. What students choose to do with that is something else entirely.

Now as for the sweet-talk, Jamers I always thought you were pretty sweet-talkin'. ;) I do however absolutely know someone who got into an MD school with a sub-3.0 and a sub-25 MCAT, and someone who got into a DO school with the same stats. In each case, they called frequently, begged for interviews, called Deans of the schools, knew every secretary's name, wrote letters, and basically ran a campaign for an interview. It paid off for both of them - they got their interview and an acceptance.

Aww does that mean there's hope for a charming 2.7 GPA, 36 mcat, with awsome extracurricular activity who wants to go to osteopathic school
student like myself.

yayayy throws confetti in da air :)
 

rocketbooster

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Wrong. You have a clear misconception about what it takes to become a neurosurgeon, and what the application process truly involves. Dividing the number of applicants by the number accepted is HARDLY informative about what it means to become accepted to a neurosurgical residency. Or any residency for that matter.

BTW, I've already been accepted to medical school. You're the one who needs to do the research. I've already done mine.
did I say that's the best indicator to being matched to neurosurgery? show me where I said that and then I'll bow down to your infinite wisdom.

the best indicator of residency competitiveness is board scores.

btw, you're so smart since you're accepted to medical school! you clearly already know everything about residency since you haven't even started med school yet. btw, I would also be accepted already if I had applied to DO schools this past year. ;)
 

rocketbooster

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Aww does that mean there's hope for a charming 2.7 GPA, 36 mcat, with awsome extracurricular activity who wants to go to osteopathic school
student like myself.

yayayy throws confetti in da air :)
definitely! you will FOR sure get at least one acceptance. that MCAT is nuts. I bet you'll get multiple acceptances. :)
 

cubicw86

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definitely! you will FOR sure get at least one acceptance. that MCAT is nuts. I bet you'll get multiple acceptances. :)

thanx cutie I feel happy now. I guess I should stop pondering this site and other site looking at stats, and scaring the living shiet out of myself hahahah.

I almost puked on my finace's laptop. I hope he don't find out cuz he's the moderator of SDN
 

Gabby

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There aren't that many residence for DO, so Do students have to apply for same residency as the MDs are applying i. MDs have more advantage in getting matched up in the residency that they want.

for example: an MD will have an easier time to match into a neurosurgery field than a DO.

DO is more geared towards primary care and internal medicine. If you wanna specialize or do surgery, DO is not a good option, but its still possible.

The above info I got from the DO I shadowed and from medical students I talk to.
No offense, but the more you talk, the less informed you come across. There are DOs all over the country who specialize and subspecialize. I shadowed a DO cardiologist and a DO orthopedic surgeon. I also know a DO dermatologist personally. None of them believed their schools or degrees held them back because they busted their ass on boards and rotations.
 

Gabby

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DO admissions is certainly easier than MD admissions. To say otherwise shows lack of knowledge on the two admissions processes. I'm really not going to get into that debate. If you want an answer, go pick up any admissions book. Compare the average MCATs, average GPAs, % of applicants accepted, etc., then comeback here.
You're pretty full of yourself for a foolish pre-med who hasn't even gotten into med school. It would serve you right to take a step back and swallow a huge dose of humble pie because you're seriously lacking.

as for residencies, the other guy is right. DOs definitely have fewer options than MDs. there are some DO residencies, but you see most DOs trying to get into allopathic residencies. some doors are definitely closed to DOs simply for their title.
And you're ignorant too.

I don't agree with that sytem. it's stupid, but it's the reality. also, for you even to say DOs can be matched to neurosurgery just as easily as MDs is, well, ignorant on your part hehe. go do the research dude.
Some of us have done the research and we know that you're wrong.

for primary care, DOs definitely have no problem. I want to do primary care, so I don't care if I am MD or DO.
Though I'm sure your future colleagues will care and probably won't want someone as arrogant as you around.
 

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No offense, but the more you talk, the less informed you come across. There are DOs all over the country who specialize and subspecialize. I shadowed a DO cardiologist and a DO orthopedic surgeon. I also know a DO dermatologist personally. None of them believed their schools or degrees held them back because they busted their ass on boards and rotations.
The neurological services my mom uses has 7 DOs on board and 3 MDs. We'll just add this to the list.
 

cubicw86

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No offense, but the more you talk, the less informed you come across. There are DOs all over the country who specialize and subspecialize. I shadowed a DO cardiologist and a DO orthopedic surgeon. I also know a DO dermatologist personally. None of them believed their schools or degrees held them back because they busted their ass on boards and rotations.
Hahah, I didn't mean that it is a very big hinder. Caribeans on the other hand would be a big hinder, now these guys have to outperformed like crazy to get back in the US.
Look it's possible to get matched into special fields as a DO. The thing is you just gotta do really well on your USMLE. like probably alittle bit better than people who are MDs.
I dunno, I'm just here to have casual convo about medical admission and the journey of medical school, that's just my interest. I'm not saying I'm 100 percent right about things, I just like to put them out to see what you guys think. It's no big deal :), so no need to get all excited :)
 

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btw, you're so smart since you're accepted to medical school! you clearly already know everything about residency since you haven't even started med school yet. btw, I would also be accepted already if I had applied to DO schools this past year. ;)
I'm pretty sure that once they get a taste of your personality, you'll get a big, fat rejection in the mail.
 

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I'm pretty sure that once they get a taste of your personality, you'll get a big, fat rejection in the mail.
you're silly. I have a good personality. I just point out misinformation when I see it. in an interview, I know the interviewer has way more knowledge than me. I would never dare to call out an interviewer. :)

now let's try to be less gabby :)laugh:) and be nice, okay friend? :)
 

rocketbooster

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The neurological services my mom uses has 7 DOs on board and 3 MDs. We'll just add this to the list.
yea, but we are talking about neurosurgery, not neurology. Big difference in residency competitiveness between those two. I apologize if you meant neurosurgery, though.
 

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you're silly. I have a good personality. I just point out misinformation when I see it. in an interview, I know the interviewer has way more knowledge than me. I would never dare to call out an interviewer. :)

now let's try to be less gabby :)laugh:) and be nice, okay friend? :)
How could you possibly point out misinformation when you're so ignorant? Your posts are riddled with errors, arrogance, and stupidity.
 

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yea, but we are talking about neurosurgery, not neurology. Big difference in residency competitiveness between those two. I apologize if you meant neurosurgery, though.
I know what I said. The chances of an allopathic or osteopathic physician getting a neurosurgical residency is slim.
 
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did I say that's the best indicator to being matched to neurosurgery? show me where I said that and then I'll bow down to your infinite wisdom.

the best indicator of residency competitiveness is board scores.

btw, you're so smart since you're accepted to medical school! you clearly already know everything about residency since you haven't even started med school yet. btw, I would also be accepted already if I had applied to DO schools this past year. ;)
Ah yes, the "I'd already be accepted if"...response.

You may be in store for a serious wake-up call my friend. Use that keen eye of yours and look at all the people telling you that acceptance to a DO school is easy and pre-determined. They're pre-meds. People like you - full of assumption - fluff on experience. Even though they're "all experts," by definition, most of them will never become physicians.

See if any medical students, or residents, or attendings will tell you the same thing. Acceptance to medical school, MD or DO, is FAR from certain - especially for the vast majority of applicants who fall right within the meat of the curve.

Wait until you go to that first interview, should you be fortunate enough to get one. Wait until you get rejected after said interview. You'll quickly learn what a fickle game this whole process is. Hopefully you have more than one interview, and hopefully they don't all respond in kind. But the odds are against you. I don't wish it on you, but don't be surprised if it happens. Even the qualified get rejected. Some of the top DO schools last year had somewhere around 5,000 applications for 100-200 spots. You think most of those 5,000 applicants were morons? Horribly unqualified? Social misfits? Think again dude. There is a tremendous amount of luck involved in this process.

I didn't tell you I've been accepted to medical school in order to dazzle you with my intelligence. One thing you may not realize is that having been accepted to medical school places me in a different category than you. I'm not just talk - I'm action. I've proven myself. You haven't yet.

Whether you do or not is to be determined. But as of now, no one knows. You may be a physician, you may be a plumber. Barring great failure or tragedy on my part - I WILL be a physician. A little humility on your part may be helpful. You may learn something. Like for example, that being a DO won't hinder your aspirations for specialization should you decide to do so.

Your naive ramblings and fumbled attempts at "researching" the profession don't change the reality. Becoming a neurosurgeon is about what YOU do, not whether you're a DO or an MD. Both DOs and MDs have been trained in neurosurgery, and both will continue to be trained in neurosurgery.

If you think it's any easier to become a neurosurgeon as an MD than a DO, you're nothing more than ignorant.
 
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No offense, but the more you talk, the less informed you come across. There are DOs all over the country who specialize and subspecialize. I shadowed a DO cardiologist and a DO orthopedic surgeon. I also know a DO dermatologist personally. None of them believed their schools or degrees held them back because they busted their ass on boards and rotations.
I don't know that it makes him/her ignorant... The DO I've met with said the same thing. He is a very successful pediatric anesthesiologist (so, he subspecialized), but he did tell me that DO will be better for me if I go into a primary care field. He said that he had to jump through a lot of hoops to get to where he is, and that if I want to specialize, I should go MD if possible. He said it would open up more doors. Now, I'm not saying he's right, so don't get all mad... but I am saying that even some of those who specialize as DO's share the opinion that being an MD would have made getting certain specialties easier. Maybe things have changed, though, since he was a resident.

That being said, I probably won't pick a school just because it's MD (if I get accepted), despite his advice. I will pick the school with the best location for me, where I believe I will be most comfortable and get the best education.
 

chocolaterie

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let's all get along, friends. :)
I don't know if you realize it, but sometimes the use of the word "friend" can be interpreted as condescending. Just a fyi.

I don't know that it makes him/her ignorant... The DO I've met with said the same thing. He is a very successful pediatric anesthesiologist (so, he subspecialized), but he did tell me that DO will be better for me if I go into a primary care field. He said that he had to jump through a lot of hoops to get to where he is, and that if I want to specialize, I should go MD if possible. He said it would open up more doors. Now, I'm not saying he's right, so don't get all mad... but I am saying that even some of those who specialize as DO's share the opinion that being an MD would have made getting certain specialties easier. Maybe things have changed, though, since he was a resident.

That being said, I probably won't pick a school just because it's MD (if I get accepted), despite his advice. I will pick the school with the best location for me, where I believe I will be most comfortable and get the best education.
I shadowed a surgeon at the Mayo Hospital here in Phoenix and she told me her fav anesthesiologist is a D.O. I think the tide is changing, it's just some old attitudes that haven't yet learned to disappear...

I also shadowed an Orthopedic surgeon who had a few D.O's in his Ortho residency program. What he said to me was: in the end.. no matter which route you go, if you end up where you're happy, the letters mean little else.
 

MossPoh

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I shadowed a surgeon at the Mayo Hospital here in Phoenix and she told me her fav anesthesiologist is a D.O. I think the tide is changing, it's just some old attitudes that haven't yet learned to disappear...

I also shadowed an Orthopedic surgeon who had a few D.O's in his Ortho residency program. What he said to me was: in the end.. no matter which route you go, if you end up where you're happy, the letters mean little else.
I don't think anyone is saying that the DOs who make it are incompetent relative to MD peers. The argument is that certain specialties expect a little more from the average DO applicant to their program (if allopathic). I've heard many DO students on the interview trail mention that their MD friends with similar scores were either getting more interviews or interviews at programs at "higher tiered" programs. Any applicant that matches into a top residency program whether it is nsg or family med is going to be stellar. They have proved they have what it takes. Until they allow MDs in DO residencies, I think it is perfectly fair to at least raise the bar a little. I thought that when I thought I was going to a DO program and I think that now that I'm in an MD program.

But yes, I know many subspeciality DOs that are among the best if not the best doctors in the hospital.
 

rocketbooster

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No offense, but the more you talk, the less informed you come across. There are DOs all over the country who specialize and subspecialize. I shadowed a DO cardiologist and a DO orthopedic surgeon. I also know a DO dermatologist personally. None of them believed their schools or degrees held them back because they busted their ass on boards and rotations.
1) The more you talk, the less informed you come across on every scale.

2) Obviously, the DO isn't going to tell YOU their degree held them back. No doctor of ANY sort would ever demean himself in front of a premed. Think about it.

3) Exactly, in reference to the bolded line. MDs do not have to work as hard to get to the same spot as DOs. Think you just contradicted yourself.

4) A MD cardiologist told me that, when he joined his multispecialty group, the group had in its bylaws to not interview any DO applicants. It was literally their policy to not consider DOs. This was a large multispecialty group that had doctors of all backgrounds in internal medicine. This is the kind of example that I mentioned you may run into as DOs. This was an example of finding a job after you finish training, but, similarly, some residency doors will be completely closed to you.

5) I don't like this stupid system, but it is what it is. I think it's getting better, though, no doubt. :xf:

6) If you run into one of those biased allopathic residencies/groups, then screw them!
 

missDO

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I definitely agree with you (rocketbooster) that the system is a bit skewed, but that it is certainly improving.

Something we need to keep in mind is the simple mathematics of it all. Statistically, there are something like 131 MD schools recognized by AAMC + another 13 Canadian MD schools. By AACOM, there are around 27 (plus or minus some branches) DO schools. Naturally, there will be siginificantly more MDs in any given residency program due to a purely numerical property. The "top 1.3% of students", for random example, considering gpa and boards, may get into one of a cluster of the top MD residencies...this stat will no matter what always result in wayyy more MD acceptances over DO. It's purely numbers!

Though, it is not all/always just the numbers. I do understand that there are those programs out there that disregard DO applicants all together--which sucks. I will be attending a DO school myself. And as of now, though my mind may change, I do hope to subspecialize. However, it is always a good idea to keep in mind that as DOs, we are in the numerical minority. That has a huge effect on residency bodies.

I went to undergrad at U of Miami and I shadowed in the OR at Miami Children's Hospital. When talking to one of the pediatric surgeons, he told me that over half of the surgeons at the hospital are DO. MCH is recognized as a phenomenal, world-class children's hospital.

For the OP--my stats: 3.1 overall, 3.0 science--major in biomedical engineering, minor in spanish. 23P MCAT. Lots of extrac's, volunteering, shadowing, research. I got one interview and one acceptance (WVSOM). WVSOM was the ONE school I followed up with a letter of interest, several emails and calls expressing my desire to go there. And their adcom took the bait :) And I suppose my "charm" won them over in person ;) It's all about going the extra mile, in my opinion. Good luck!
 

danimjo

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I just got verified after about 5 weeks wohoo!

So my first mcat attempt was 25M, second attempt 24Q...

(3.6 overall, 3.45 science, extensive volunteer, work, research and shadowing experience)

I know this is on the lower end of the averages for schools. I am curious to others out there who made it into DO school with similar lower mcat scores?
This is not immediately on topic, but I would be aware that some schools look at your most recent MCAT, and others take your highest MCAT score. For those that weigh your most recent MCAT score more heavily, I would plan on being prepared to answer why your score went down... I'll be surprised if it doesn't come up during an interview.
 

Gabby

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1) The more you talk, the less informed you come across on every scale.
I think you ought to get yourself an acceptance before you bash others for being less informed. I've been through this process already. I got accepted to both DO schools and MD schools. I can promise you I know what I'm talking about. You, on the other hand, are so woefully ignorant that you don't even know what you don't know. Your post history suggests you think you're God's gift to Osteopathic schools. You're in for a rude awakening.

2) Obviously, the DO isn't going to tell YOU their degree held them back. No doctor of ANY sort would ever demean himself in front of a premed. Think about it.
Oh, but if no doctor would do that, where is all your (mis)information coming from?

3) Exactly, in reference to the bolded line. MDs do not have to work as hard to get to the same spot as DOs. Think you just contradicted yourself.
Of course they do! Everyone who wants a competitive specialty has to bust their ass. That's pre-med 101. Even you should know it.

4) A MD cardiologist told me that, when he joined his multispecialty group, the group had in its bylaws to not interview any DO applicants. It was literally their policy to not consider DOs. This was a large multispecialty group that had doctors of all backgrounds in internal medicine. This is the kind of example that I mentioned you may run into as DOs. This was an example of finding a job after you finish training, but, similarly, some residency doors will be completely closed to you.
The more I think about it, the more convinced I am that you're a troll who's always trying to stir things up.
 

NilamPatel

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I work in the #1 children's hospital in the country and do research for a DO and MBBS in cardiac anesthesia - one of the hardest sub specialties around especially in peds! not to mention I work with DO's and MBBS's in the Cardiac center itself.

if the best hospital in the country and some might even argue the world is going to be hiring DOs and MBBSs, I think we will be just fine. My own Primary care doc is a DO and I used to have a PENN educated MD and she was the WORST doctor I have ever seen. Bedside manner and primary care seems to get lost with Penn docs, oh well - now I know what kind of doctor NOT to be if i hopefully get into DO school!!

When someone is dying, I highly doubt they will ask what your credentials are. My brother went to LECOM and works at a major hospital in PA, his program director, the vice chair and CHIEF of EM went to PCOM, he has 31 DO colleagues. This is just in Emergency.

I would love to continue giving you statistics but I have to study for my MCATs so I can get a 25 and get into DO school :p

(sarcasm alert)
 

missDO

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Thanks missDO that comment was motivating and optimistic :)
You're welcome! And good luck :)

Above anything else said in this thread, I think this is the biggest point that anyone can take home as fact.
Thanks! And I do think it is true. Show your sincere interest; don't ever lose contact for an extended period of time; demonstrate your unique compatibility with the school; explain to them your love for the surrounding community and your ties with the area/state--all of these efforts will only help you. Of course avoid being redundant with your secondary app--but if there are things that you are not able to convey in the secondary, don't hesistate to follow up with something that does. I truly believe that, considering "me on paper", my sincere extra efforts awarded me an interview. I really think adcoms give some, if not a great deal, of attention and respect to those who go the extra mile. I wrote my letter, a very sincere and excited one, describing just those items I touched on above--3 days later I was invited for the interview.
 

flyfella023

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I was accepted with a 21 on the MCAT (3.28 overall, 4.0 science). The school was able to see past a number and see that the other aspects of my vocational and educational experience more than made up for the shortcoming. Following a retake I was accepted at other schools but instead stuck with the original school b/c it wasn't just a numbers game. In my health care experience maturity and attitude go a long way while arrogance and narcissistic mentality get you nowhere. I would much rather excel and be successful while representing a school that gave me a chance as a human being
 

NilamPatel

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I was accepted with a 21 on the MCAT (3.28 overall, 4.0 science). The school was able to see past a number and see that the other aspects of my vocational and educational experience more than made up for the shortcoming. Following a retake I was accepted at other schools but instead stuck with the original school b/c it wasn't just a numbers game. In my health care experience maturity and attitude go a long way while arrogance and narcissistic mentality get you nowhere. I would much rather excel and be successful while representing a school that gave me a chance as a human being
thats amazing! congrats, i am glad a school was able to see past one stupid test score. its hard to keep faith when you are on SDN because everywhere you go, you see the cream of the crop, not to say they are bad - we need people with 4.0 GPAs and 36 MCAT scores to go to Harvard. but you lose faith in medical schools to be able to see past those two scores.

I have had a hard time be hopeful and optimistic that I will get into Med school. all i can do is try my best and be me!
 

flyfella023

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Yes, we do need high scores and fortunately I had other extracurriculars to make up for my shortcomings. Don't give up at all and yes SDN is great at giving you the impression that you don't stand a chance but stay on top of it and be persistent.... i too had good experiences with a high number of DO's in PA. The radiologist at the hospital I worked at told me I didn't stand a chance in specializing as a DO and two weeks later they hired a DO radiologist haha
 

rocketbooster

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i like what i'm hearing! keep it up! good luck, friends!
 

fj4288

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Yes, we do need high scores and fortunately I had other extracurriculars to make up for my shortcomings. Don't give up at all and yes SDN is great at giving you the impression that you don't stand a chance but stay on top of it and be persistent.... i too had good experiences with a high number of DO's in PA. The radiologist at the hospital I worked at told me I didn't stand a chance in specializing as a DO and two weeks later they hired a DO radiologist haha
hahahh--I'm sure that knocked him down a peg or two:cool::D
 

DO2Be2013

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Yes, we do need high scores and fortunately I had other extracurriculars to make up for my shortcomings. Don't give up at all and yes SDN is great at giving you the impression that you don't stand a chance but stay on top of it and be persistent.... i too had good experiences with a high number of DO's in PA. The radiologist at the hospital I worked at told me I didn't stand a chance in specializing as a DO and two weeks later they hired a DO radiologist haha
http://www.temple.edu/medicine/departments_centers/clinical_departments/radiology_residency_chief_residents.htm