Who manages fibromyalgia?

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I'm sorry if this has been discussed elsewhere, but in y'alls practice setting, who manages fibromyalgia? I'm starting to get more and more of these patients with diffuse muscle and joint pain, especially now that I just started seeing medicaid, yay. Typically I will refer to PT and a pain psych consult for cbt (which >50% never go to, and I'm in a small city with no good psych so refer outside), maybe start gabapentin/lyrica/cymbalta.

There is no rheum in my town. I'll order the basic ESR, CRP, RF. I've asked some patients if they've seen a rheumatologist and the common answer is "he said I have fibromyalgia which he doesn't manage. He tolds me I should find a pain doc for pain meds."

So right now it's pain psych, PT, +/- a neuromodulatory which I say the PCP can manage in the long run. Then I say bye. Any other suggestions? Thanks!

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First make sure no real pathology. I have seen several “FM” who are really cervical stenosis or chronic csf leak or connective tissue disorders. Next advise opioids counterproductive. Do psychometric testing and fix components that are out of whack - let me know if more interested in being able to bill out psych testing in your office. Then I consider off label options once traditional stuff fails like low dose naltrexone or memantine. Also advocate exercise!


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First make sure no real pathology. I have seen several “FM” who are really cervical stenosis or chronic csf leak or connective tissue disorders. Next advise opioids counterproductive. Do psychometric testing and fix components that are out of whack - let me know if more interested in being able to bill out psych testing in your office. Then I consider off label options once traditional stuff fails like low dose naltrexone or memantine. Also advocate exercise!

PCP will label patients with fibro if they have pain in more than one area. So if you have a bad neck and bad back then you have FM.

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Happy to see them.
Dx: SSS and WPI. They can do it on the internet. No doctor needed. Then rule out organic pathology such as connective tissue disease or spinal pathology by H&P.
Tx: Lyrica, Cymbalta, Savella, Ultram, Non-soma or Non-BZD muscle relaxer. Fail that and get naltrexone.
All meds contingent on graded cardio exercise program. CBT depending on social situation.

No procedures, no other meds except those above. Can see them every 3-6 months. Nothing else to offer.
 
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I think this is a really important question. And I think we should ask Dan Clauw and Brian Walitt how we approach it for a population or within a system.
 
I have had success with a handful now weaning opioids to off and starting naltrexone. That is the only treatment plan I give them in the initial consult so there isn’t really much fuss about it along the way.
 
Thanks for all the suggestions.

So Steve you use Tramadol for fibro? Is that more for its SNRI properties?

And I’ve read about naltrexone for fibromyalgia but don’t really understand it. What’s the thinking on how it works pathophysiologically?
 
Thanks for all the suggestions.

So Steve you use Tramadol for fibro? Is that more for its SNRI properties?

And I’ve read about naltrexone for fibromyalgia but don’t really understand it. What’s the thinking on how it works pathophysiologically?


J Clin Rheumatol. 2000 Oct;6(5):250-7.
Efficacy of tramadol in treatment of pain in fibromyalgia.
Russell IJ1, Kamin M, Bennett RM, Schnitzer TJ, Green JA, Katz WA.
Author information

Abstract
An outpatient, randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled clinical trial was conducted to evaluate the efficacy and safety of tramadol in the treatment of the pain of fibromyalgia syndrome. One hundred patients with fibromyalgia syndrome, (1990 American College of Rheumatology criteria), were enrolled into an open-label phase and treated with tramadol 50-400 mg/day. Patients who tolerated tramadol and perceived benefit were randomized to treatment with tramadol or placebo in the double-blind phase. The primary efficacy outcome measurement was the time (days) to exit from the double-blind phase because of inadequate pain relief, which was reported as the cumulative probability of discontinuing treatment because of inadequate pain relief. One hundred patients entered the open-label phase; 69% tolerated and achieved benefit with tramadol. These patients were then randomized to continue tramadol (n = 35) or convert to a placebo (n = 34) during a 6-week, double-blind treatment period. The Kaplan-Meier estimate of cumulative probability of discontinuing the double blind period because of inadequate pain relief was significantly lower in the tramadol group compared with the placebo group (p = 0.001). Twenty (57.1%) patients in the tramadol group successfully completed the entire double-blind phase compared with nine (27%) in the placebo group (p = .015). These results support the efficacy of tramadol over a period of 6 weeks in a double blind study for the treatment of the pain of fibromyalgia in a group of patients who had been determined to tolerate it and perceive a benefit.


Am J Med. 2003 May;114(7):537-45.
Tramadol and acetaminophen combination tablets in the treatment of fibromyalgia pain: a double-blind, randomized, placebo-controlled study.
Bennett RM1, Kamin M, Karim R, Rosenthal N.
Author information

Abstract
PURPOSE:
To evaluate the efficacy and safety of a combination analgesic tablet (37.5 mg tramadol/325 mg acetaminophen) for the treatment of fibromyalgia pain.

METHODS:
This 91-day, multicenter, double-blind, randomized, placebo-controlled study compared tramadol/acetaminophen combination tablets with placebo. The primary outcome variable was cumulative time to discontinuation (Kaplan-Meier analysis). Secondary measures at the end of the study included pain, pain relief, total tender points, myalgia, health status, and Fibromyalgia Impact Questionnaire scores.

RESULTS:
Of the 315 subjects who were enrolled in the study, 313 (294 women [94%], mean [+/- SD] age, 50 +/- 10 years) completed at least one postrandomization efficacy assessment (tramadol/acetaminophen: n = 156; placebo: n = 157). Discontinuation of treatment for any reason was less common in those treated with tramadol/acetaminophen compared with placebo (48% vs. 62%, P = 0.004). Tramadol/acetaminophen-treated subjects also had significantly less pain at the end of the study (53 +/- 32 vs. 65 +/- 29 on a visual analog scale of 0 to 100, P <0.001), and better pain relief (1.7 +/- 1.4 vs. 0.8 +/- 1.3 on a scale of -1 to 4, P <0.001) and Fibromyalgia Impact Questionnaire scores (P = 0.008). Indexes of physical functioning, role-physical, body pain, health transition, and physical component summary all improved significantly in the tramadol/acetaminophen-treated subjects. Discontinuation due to adverse events occurred in 19% (n = 29) of tramadol/acetaminophen-treated subjects and 12% (n = 18) of placebo-treated subjects (P = 0.09). The mean dose of tramadol/acetaminophen was 4.0 +/- 1.8 tablets per day.

CONCLUSION:
A tramadol/acetaminophen combination tablet was effective for the treatment of fibromyalgia pain without any serious adverse effects.
 
LDN thought to modulate microglia activity in CNS


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I'd gladly send all of these consults to you Steve.

I feel like I should create a app with a video of myself going through the fibromylagia consult talk and have the patients hit play when they enter the room.

there will be check boxes for what they've tried and not tried, gabapentin? tramadol? PT? CBT? SNRI? graded exercises, etc and the fibromylagia adventure game app will save me some frustration. 3 min video of me explaining why opioids are not indicated, why I believe that they have disease but I do not have a cure, why they need to get their anxiety/depression treated and address their morbid obesity, etc

then I walk into the room after the app notifies me that the app has run it's course.
 
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I'd gladly send all of these consults to you Steve.

I feel like I should create a app with a video of myself going through the fibromylagia consult talk and have the patients hit play when they enter the room.

there will be check boxes for what they've tried and not tried, gabapentin? tramadol? PT? CBT? SNRI? graded exercises, etc and the fibromylagia adventure game app will save me some frustration. 3 min video of me explaining why opioids are not indicated, why I believe that they have disease but I do not have a cure, why they need to get their anxiety/depression treated and address their morbid obesity, etc

then I walk into the room after the app notifies me that the app has run it's course.

" thats not how i treat pain." After third time saying it either I get up and leave or the patient does. Bills the same either way.
 
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Happy to see them.
Dx: SSS and WPI. They can do it on the internet. No doctor needed. Then rule out organic pathology such as connective tissue disease or spinal pathology by H&P.
Tx: Lyrica, Cymbalta, Savella, Ultram, Non-soma or Non-BZD muscle relaxer. Fail that and get naltrexone.
All meds contingent on graded cardio exercise program. CBT depending on social situation.

No procedures, no other meds except those above. Can see them every 3-6 months. Nothing else to offer.

Any literature on Cymbalta vs. Savella?

Cymbalta seems to be more popular pick because it also works for depression...but if savella has been shown to be better than I might try this out..
 
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NNT for savella is like 19. NNT for cymbalta and lyrica is 5.


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Savella more NE action. Possibly gets the low energy folks more motivated to go do stuff. Also bumps their BP and HR...
 
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the app is an interesting idea..

one suggestion. if they say "yes" to oxy or vicodin, the app goes on a lecture of the risks of opioids.

if they say yes to methadone or heroin... all power to the room goes out.
 
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the app is an interesting idea..

one suggestion. if they say "yes" to oxy or vicodin, the app goes on a lecture of the risks of opioids.

if they say yes to methadone or heroin... all power to the room goes out.


I like that idea. if we ever make it, we will call that the "DUCTTAPE Protocol"

It'll be a Choose your own adventure edition of FMS. some blend of these 3

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Home Page - Escape Room LA
 
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Savella got an indication for fibromyalgia because the SNRI market was saturated and the fibromyalgia market was wide open. It's pretty nauseating and I've never seen any studies suggesting superiority to other SNRIs. I consider it second or third line after Venlafaxine and Duloxetine.
 
the app is an interesting idea..

one suggestion. if they say "yes" to oxy or vicodin, the app goes on a lecture of the risks of opioids.

if they say yes to methadone or heroin... all power to the room goes out.

Hilarious. I just about choked on my drink as I read this.

For my FMS pts., I always rec water walking/aerobics 3 x week when able, and always low impact exercises. Start low, go slow. Even 2-3 min/day on elliptical or stationary bike. Increase by 2 min every week until goal of 30 min/day. If can't handle 30 min at a time, then goal of 10 min 3 x day.
 
Savella got an indication for fibromyalgia because the SNRI market was saturated and the fibromyalgia market was wide open. It's pretty nauseating and I've never seen any studies suggesting superiority to other SNRIs. I consider it second or third line after Venlafaxine and Duloxetine.

To be fair to Savella, there really is no evidence for the benefit of Lyrica or any of the other expensive drugs for Fibromyalgia pain.

In fact, there is little evidence that Fibro even exists.

Its largely an invention of big pharma to improve profit margins after paying off "experts" in the field to "research" the topic who give vague discussions about functional MRI "changes" confirming the disease that has no other objective evidence. Big pharma also paid the "patient advocate groups" as well to push for it. Very similar method was later employed by the muscular dystrophy folks.

Drug Approved. Is Disease Real?

Great article discussing the evolution of how big pharma got Lyrica pushed through:

Fibromyalgia, Lyrica, and the New York Times
 
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I think this is a really important question. And I think we should ask Dan Clauw and Brian Walitt how we approach it for a population or within a system.

The last people you want to ask is Dan Clauw or Brian Walitt for objective information on this subject. They are both consultants for big pharma and mostly just push their expensive products.

Funny how its ok for big pharma to do their own studies on their own drugs with "consultants" who are paid very handsomely by those same big pharma companies. Hmm no conflict of interest there huh?

The same jokester who loves to quote these guys like gospels will attack other pain treatments for "conflicts of interest" on far less obvious grounds. Funny how that works huh?

See above post for more info.
 
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NNT for savella is like 19. NNT for cymbalta and lyrica is 5.


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NNT for what outcome? What does that 1/5 that get "benefit" actually obtain in terms of VAS/Functional score benefit?

The average fibro patient is also a female who is 5'4" and 180lbs.

Your result So basically a BMI of 31 (obese)


Considering Lyrica's weight gain potential, should we be pushing drugs that cause MORE weight gain in a population that is ALREADY obese on average?
 
NNT for what outcome? What does that 1/5 that get "benefit" actually obtain in terms of VAS/Functional score benefit?

The average fibro patient is also a female who is 5'4" and 180lbs.

Your result So basically a BMI of 31 (obese)


Considering Lyrica's weight gain potential, should we be pushing drugs that cause MORE weight gain in a population that is ALREADY obese on average?

Savella helps with weight loss.

Due to significant nausea that can last several months.
 
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Savella helps with weight loss.

Due to significant nausea that can last several months.

Ok so Savella sounds better than Lyrica when you weigh the risks/benefits of these two medications.

Lyrica is essentially useless in terms of real VAS/functional benefit for "fibro" patients while subsequently causing weight gain in a population that is already obese on average. So Savella wins on helping with weight loss alone.
 
I treat all imaginary diseases with unicorn tears. Obviously this is a cash pay service. That being said, I've had to hold off on the unicorn tears when I find MS, RA, radiculopathy etc which have been after the urgent care diagnosis of "fibromyalgia."
 
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It's not x - neck pain, HA/Migraine low back pain, pelvic pain - secondary to FMS. It's facetogenic neck/LBP with incidental FMS, discogenic LBP with incidental FMS, migraine with incidental FMS, endometriosis and incidental FMS.
Take that tact and let's follow the outcomes and costs.
 
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In my experience, treating observable pathology with injections in patients with fibromyalgia is often a waste of time unless the fibro is addressed at the same time. The injection causes disproportionate amounts of pain, the patient is not able to mobilize or do rehab after the injection, and three months later everything is at Square One or worse.
 
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observable = subjective pathology
 
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In my experience, treating observable pathology with injections in patients with fibromyalgia is often a waste of time unless the fibro is addressed at the same time. The injection causes disproportionate amounts of pain, the patient is not able to mobilize or do rehab after the injection, and three months later everything is at Square One or worse.

How do you "address" the fibro?

Psychiatry seems to be the only slightly beneficial method for this.
 
Happy to see them.
Dx: SSS and WPI. They can do it on the internet. No doctor needed. Then rule out organic pathology such as connective tissue disease or spinal pathology by H&P.
Tx: Lyrica, Cymbalta, Savella, Ultram, Non-soma or Non-BZD muscle relaxer. Fail that and get naltrexone.
All meds contingent on graded cardio exercise program. CBT depending on social situation.

No procedures, no other meds except those above. Can see them every 3-6 months. Nothing else to offer.

Agree with everything but Ultram and Lyrica.

Lyrica is too expensive and terrible for an already obese population in terms of weight gain with very little real VAS/functional benefit.

I don't write narcotics for fibro only patients (even Tramadol).
 
Sheep dogs

I live in Oregon and follow farming and agriculture. Saw and interesting story in the news recently that reminded me of professional life and this thread.
There are lots of sheep ranches in the Pacific North West and with the re-introduction of wolves here there is naturally some predation. So the ranchers bring in Great Pyrenees to protect their flocks. Great Pyrenees are a sweet breed, they are big & predictable and stay with the flock to guard them, but they are no match for the wolves. So the ranchers brought in Kangals. Initially the ranchers thought the Kangals were a bust, they took off and left the sheep unguarded. But, over time the ranchers realized that, in spite of the Kangles leaving the flock, the sheep weren't being attacked. Turns out the Kangals leave the flock to hunt the wolves.

Moral: sometimes hunting the wolves is the best strategy to protect the sheep.
 
Patient sent by my main spine surgeon referrer for BL SIJ and MBB/RF.

Office visit took 20 minutes. To me, much more gratifying than doing those unnecessary injections.

My A/P

ASSESSMENT:
Patient with myofascial pain, sleep and mood disturbance

PLAN:
1) Medical Modalities:
- Lyrica (can try gaba if too expensive)
- Voltaren gel

2) Interventional Modalities:
- None

3) Behavioral Medicine Modalities:
- Had a talk about mind/body connection and sleep issues effecting chronic pain. Sleep medicine referral placed.

4) Other Modalities:
PT order placed to specifically target myofascial pain with:
Dry needling/Heat/massage/stretch/ultrasound/TENS/iontophoresis
Please trial TENS at sessions and help pt get home unit if helpful

- Discussed in detail that the patients obesity is likely complicating the chronic pain condition. Referral for medical weight loss clinic placed.

- Discussed smoking cessation and its impact on spine health in much detail. The patient was given a smoking cessation handout with resources including the 1-800-QUIT- NOW phone number.

- Had a talk about mind/body connection and mood and behavioral health issues effecting chronic pain. Pain psychology consult placed.

- Much emphasis placed on regular aerobic exercise (2-3x per week, getting the heart rate up)

5) Imaging/Labs:
- None

F/u in four weeks
 
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Patient sent by my main spine surgeon referrer for BL SIJ and MBB/RF.

Office visit took 20 minutes. To me, much more gratifying than doing those unnecessary injections.

My A/P

ASSESSMENT:
Patient with myofascial pain, sleep and mood disturbance

PLAN:
1) Medical Modalities:
- Lyrica (can try gaba if too expensive)
- Voltaren gel

2) Interventional Modalities:
- None

3) Behavioral Medicine Modalities:
- Had a talk about mind/body connection and sleep issues effecting chronic pain. Sleep medicine referral placed.

4) Other Modalities:
PT order placed to specifically target myofascial pain with:
Dry needling/Heat/massage/stretch/ultrasound/TENS/iontophoresis
Please trial TENS at sessions and help pt get home unit if helpful

- Discussed in detail that the patients obesity is likely complicating the chronic pain condition. Referral for medical weight loss clinic placed.

- Discussed smoking cessation and its impact on spine health in much detail. The patient was given a smoking cessation handout with resources including the 1-800-QUIT- NOW phone number.

- Had a talk about mind/body connection and mood and behavioral health issues effecting chronic pain. Pain psychology consult placed.

- Much emphasis placed on regular aerobic exercise (2-3x per week, getting the heart rate up)

5) Imaging/Labs:
- None

F/u in four weeks

Everything sounds about right except the Lyrica.

Dont understand why we give a medication that causes weight gain and potential for depression to patients who are already obese with depression.
 
Everything sounds about right except the Lyrica.

Dont understand why we give a medication that causes weight gain and potential for depression to patients who are already obese with depression.
I missed the part in the pi that says 100% of patients gain significant amounts of weight.
 
I missed the part in the pi that says 100% of patients gain significant amounts of weight.

Its enough that the risks outweigh the very marginal benefits of the medication.

Not to mention the high cost. The cost of Lyrica for 1 year is equivalent to about 4 years of PT and CBT combined.
 
Its enough that the risks outweigh the very marginal benefits of the medication.

Not to mention the high cost. The cost of Lyrica for 1 year is equivalent to about 4 years of PT and CBT combined.

Many of my patients have a $30 copay. They can get three month supply for less than two visits of pt
 
Patient sent by my main spine surgeon referrer for BL SIJ and MBB/RF.

Office visit took 20 minutes. To me, much more gratifying than doing those unnecessary injections.

My A/P

ASSESSMENT:
Patient with myofascial pain, sleep and mood disturbance

PLAN:
1) Medical Modalities:
- Lyrica (can try gaba if too expensive)
- Voltaren gel

2) Interventional Modalities:
- None

3) Behavioral Medicine Modalities:
- Had a talk about mind/body connection and sleep issues effecting chronic pain. Sleep medicine referral placed.

4) Other Modalities:
PT order placed to specifically target myofascial pain with:
Dry needling/Heat/massage/stretch/ultrasound/TENS/iontophoresis
Please trial TENS at sessions and help pt get home unit if helpful

- Discussed in detail that the patients obesity is likely complicating the chronic pain condition. Referral for medical weight loss clinic placed.

- Discussed smoking cessation and its impact on spine health in much detail. The patient was given a smoking cessation handout with resources including the 1-800-QUIT- NOW phone number.

- Had a talk about mind/body connection and mood and behavioral health issues effecting chronic pain. Pain psychology consult placed.

- Much emphasis placed on regular aerobic exercise (2-3x per week, getting the heart rate up)

5) Imaging/Labs:
- None

F/u in four weeks


ok, just so i understand: you gave an unmotivated fibro patient

-sleep med referral
-PT referral
-Weight loss referral
-Pain psych referral
-smoking cessation referral.

not to mention 2 prescriptions medications.

if we are discussing cost of care, you have to look at what you are doing here.

good news is that the patient wont do any of it anyway.
 
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the premise of that article is good, but im not sure I would trust all the small details of it.

for example, there is no Complimentary and Integrative Medicine Program at the Mayo Clinic in Rochester, New York... its in Minnesota...


ssdoc, those 4 referrals are still cheaper than a series of 3 done at a HOPD...
 
the premise of that article is good, but im not sure I would trust all the small details of it.

for example, there is no Complimentary and Integrative Medicine Program at the Mayo Clinic in Rochester, New York... its in Minnesota...


ssdoc, those 4 referrals are still cheaper than a series of 3 done at a HOPD...

But still far less than that Lyrica script including the injections
 
Patient sent by my main spine surgeon referrer for BL SIJ and MBB/RF.

Office visit took 20 minutes. To me, much more gratifying than doing those unnecessary injections.

My A/P

ASSESSMENT:
Patient with myofascial pain, sleep and mood disturbance

PLAN:
1) Medical Modalities:
- Lyrica (can try gaba if too expensive)
- Voltaren gel

2) Interventional Modalities:
- None

3) Behavioral Medicine Modalities:
- Had a talk about mind/body connection and sleep issues effecting chronic pain. Sleep medicine referral placed.

4) Other Modalities:
PT order placed to specifically target myofascial pain with:
Dry needling/Heat/massage/stretch/ultrasound/TENS/iontophoresis
Please trial TENS at sessions and help pt get home unit if helpful

- Discussed in detail that the patients obesity is likely complicating the chronic pain condition. Referral for medical weight loss clinic placed.

- Discussed smoking cessation and its impact on spine health in much detail. The patient was given a smoking cessation handout with resources including the 1-800-QUIT- NOW phone number.

- Had a talk about mind/body connection and mood and behavioral health issues effecting chronic pain. Pain psychology consult placed.

- Much emphasis placed on regular aerobic exercise (2-3x per week, getting the heart rate up)

5) Imaging/Labs:
- None

F/u in four weeks

I think this is a great plan but don't you see how a majority of the patient's treatment is up to them. Quit smoking, meditate, exercise, eat healthy and get enough sleep and voila your pain will get better. I think I'm going to record a spiel of myself saying this and place the recorder in the exam room. Nurses can page me at home when each patient's brought in and I'll have them hit play.
 
What about extensive tattoos featuring the diagnosis? I have yet to see a patient get M79.7 tattooed on them...


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I think this is a great plan but don't you see how a majority of the patient's treatment is up to them. Quit smoking, meditate, exercise, eat healthy and get enough sleep and voila your pain will get better. I think I'm going to record a spiel of myself saying this and place the recorder in the exam room. Nurses can page me at home when each patient's brought in and I'll have them hit play.

The majority of treatment in almost ANY field of medicine is >90% up to the patient to be honest.
 
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What do you think the biggest 'cost' associated with FMS is?
 
thank you. i stand corrected

I heard it in a lecture from a neurologist and took note of it. perhaps he meant levomilnacipran

also interesting that venlafaxine which is most associated with hypertension predominantly acts on serotonin. i was always taught that the varying levels of reuptake inhibition for the two NT are what caused the SE profile
 
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It's actually lost productivity, work loss.
 
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