who watches the students' backs?

[swish05]

I would like to present a hypothetical situation:

A first year medical student has completed all courses satisfactorily save for one. This one course is not a major course. It is not until summer that the student receives information on how to remediate the course. It is going to be a self study. (doesn't make much sense to have a remediation be a self study unless it is going to be easy right?) Anyway, the student studies incredibly hard, more than said student studied for any other class that was passed with no problem. The professor makes the remediation test more difficult than the original and adds no curve, and the result is that the student barely fails the test. The dean then makes the decision to require the student to repeat the first year. Now I know this happens but without going into detail let me just say this student has a very good case to be argued, but has been given no such oppurtunity. this was not a major class and a very large curve had to be placed on the original exam simply so the whole class would not fail. The student only missed passing the first exam by one point. Ok so that was a little bit of detail. The main point of giving all this background is to ask a couple of questions.

1. What venues are available to give osteopathic students a voice if they feel they are not being given a fair oppurtunity?

2. How are remediations handled at other osteopathic medical schools?

Any feedback would be greatly appreciated. This is something that is difficult to google.

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[fiznat]

Ouch. Sorry to hear about your (uh, hypothetical) situation.

How far does your school's student handbook go into detailing these kinds of procedures? I think ultimately it is usually at the school's discretion to make these kinds of decisions, but it seems odd you haven't had an opportunity to make your case. If there isn't an official pathway at your school, what's to stop you from just making an appointment with the dean?

 

[DrYoda]

Your only real option is to appeal. If your school hasn't offered you a chance, be proactive and set up a meeting with an admin.

 

[premedmind]

Pretty sure you'd have to appeal if you feel you had extenuating circumstances or weren't treated fairly.

 

[Rollo]

Why do people still start off with these "So I have this friend who has this problem"...? That worked in 3rd grade, just man up and tell us it's you in this situation...

Anyway, let me get this straight. A supposedly minor course, which I assume wasn't very difficult because it was a minor course, had a huge curve yet you managed to fail it. Then this same minor, relatively easy course remedial exam you failed again.

I guess the school could look the other way and let you move on to 2nd year. But then again, you did fail the same course twice so even if you were to appeal, I don't see how you could get them to revert their decision. Unless you had special circumstances like family or personal problems.

And you've had plenty of opportunity to voice your opinion by now. How? By contacting the course director or the student dean. Especially the student dean, this is their job at most schools: to listen to student's concerns about their current classes.

Did you talk to your student dean? Your course director? When you appeal, these are the first things they will ask you...why didn't you contact anybody after you failed the first time to ask them what you needed to do differently and if they can help you track your progress in your remedial course.

 

[Everglide]

Anyway, let me get this straight. A supposedly minor course, which I assume wasn't very difficult because it was a minor course, had a huge curve yet you managed to fail it. Then this same minor, relatively easy course remedial exam you failed again.

Was going to post this.... If you appeal, leave the part out about "it being a minor course".

It seems rough to repeat the entire year, I could understand repeating the course. It's basically your dean's/administration's call.... If you had a good case to argue, you should have presented it before the remediation exam.

 

[Goro]

I concur with this post. I'd like to add that failing by 1 point, or 50 is still failing.
How did you do in your other courses? If 80+, then your dean could have asked that you re-remediate. However, if you were just squeaking by, then I'd think a repeat year would do you some good.

You can appeal to your school's Provost or Chancellor. The key thinkg I would be asking is: was this established policy for failing students?

Anyway, let me get this straight. A supposedly minor course, which I assume wasn't very difficult because it was a minor course, had a huge curve yet you managed to fail it. Then this same minor, relatively easy course remedial exam you failed again.

I guess the school could look the other way and let you move on to 2nd year. But then again, you did fail the same course twice so even if you were to appeal, I don't see how you could get them to revert their decision. Unless you had special circumstances like family or personal problems.

And you've had plenty of opportunity to voice your opinion by now. How? By contacting the course director or the student dean. Especially the student dean, this is their job at most schools: to listen to student's concerns about their current classes.

Did you talk to your student dean? Your course director? When you appeal, these are the first things they will ask you...why didn't you contact anybody after you failed the first time to ask them what you needed to do differently and if they can help you track your progress in your remedial course.

 

[MedStudentWanna]

Why do people still start off with these "So I have this friend who has this problem"...? That worked in 3rd grade, just man up and tell us it's you in this situation...

I don't think they do it for your benefit. I think they do it because school admins read these forums and they hope that if they start off with "my friend..." whoever from their school is reading can't prove it was the actual student on here airing out the dirty laundry.

OP, I'm really sorry about the situation. I would write a formal letter to the dean (not an email) explaining that you would like a chance to appeal the decision.

 

[Unknown3234]

That is pretty much how I have seen cases handled.

The reason remediation test are not curved is because remediation test are made up of questions that have passed the qualifications of being fair and balanced. Pretty much they are not new questions, they been used, most got them right and understood what was being asked.

Its not the end of the world. Use your time to study, start looking into board review. Pick up First Aid and keep all of the first year material fresh.

 

[majatoi]

1. What venues are available to give osteopathic students a voice if they feel they are not being given a fair oppurtunity?

Any feedback would be greatly appreciated. This is something that is difficult to google.

1) I would recommend contact your Student Government Association President to help guide you through the process. I am sure he or she may know the process at your school specifically. The only person at AZCOM who you could appeal to if a decision had been made is our Dean and it had to be in written form. I recommended them to meet in person with the Dean to explain their points before writing the appeal and as a past SGA President, I always offered to proof read it to help them as well. Furthermore, if that appeal doesn't come out in your favor you could appeal to the CEO/President of your school, but once you get to that point, they will almost ALWAYS side with the Dean of your COM/SOM.

If you aren't sure who your SGA President at your school is, refer to our SGA President directory:

http://cosgp.aacom.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=5&Itemid=3

 

[swish05]

Ok first of to all the wanna be sherlock holmes' out there, let me make it clear. This did not happen to me, but to a classmate. I could make a case right here to prove to all of you that my classmate was indeed treated unfairly in this situation, but I would like to leave out as much detail as possible to keep the anonymity of the person and the school. I am not trying to make a case here to see if I can get a bunch of strangers to agree with me. I am trying to look to peers who can shed light on ways to fight this. I am trying to help out. If you don't have anything helpful to say, then save your a hole opinions to dump on some other thread. You aren't needed. To all those who tried to be helpful- thank you.

 

[MedStudentWanna]

1) I would recommend contact your Student Government Association President to help guide you through the process. I am sure he or she may know the process at your school specifically. The only person at AZCOM who you could appeal to if a decision had been made is our Dean and it had to be in written form. I recommended them to meet in person with the Dean to explain their points before writing the appeal and as a past SGA President, I always offered to proof read it to help them as well. Furthermore, if that appeal doesn't come out in your favor you could appeal to the CEO/President of your school, but once you get to that point, they will almost ALWAYS side with the Dean of your COM/SOM.

If you aren't sure who your SGA President at your school is, refer to our SGA President directory:

http://cosgp.aacom.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=5&Itemid=3

I'm sorry but I would never go to your SGA President to advocate on your behalf to the dean. That's ridiculous. The student, him or herself, should advocate on his/her own behalf.

 

[Velocity]

For what it's worth, I know of one person in a similar situation. The course he failed was a major course, though. His summer remediation was an actual course run by his school (many schools seem to farm summer remediations out to other institutions' courses). He narrowly failed it, and has to repeat the entire first year. He had passed all of his other first-year classes. That's a rough situation...

Aside from that scenario and the one you're describing, I don't know how schools handle it. I had previously never heard of someone failing a remediation.

I've heard of three types of remediations: 1) summer class; 2) summer class at another institution (usually the student must pay for this course on their own); 3) a redemption make-up exam is offered (probably only for smaller/shorter courses where the student wasn't failing by a huge margin).

 

[dermpathdoc]

Your only real option is to appeal. If your school hasn't offered you a chance, be proactive and set up a meeting with an admin.

agree, per COCA all schools must have an appeal option in just such a situation.

 

[swish05]

agree, per COCA all schools must have an appeal option in just such a situation.

i was not aware that schools must have an appeal option. this helps alot!

 

[MedStudentWanna]

agree, per COCA all schools must have an appeal option in just such a situation.

I don't know COCA rules, but in the allo world, the only time they have to have an appeal option is for dismissal, not for repeating the year.

 

[DuxburyPembroke]

Where can one find COCA regulations? I've tried negotiating their website before, with little success...

 

[willen101383]

I have nothing to add aside from what has been noted...but I have TWO friends who were in this exact situation this past year with regard to "a minor course." They were both completely screwed by the school and one decided he was so insulted he dropped out, and the other is studying her ass off for the remediation that she is taking sometime this week. The one that dropped out failed a main course...but he would have remediated that this summer and come back to join the class this fall. The minor class was the nail in the coffin that pushed him over into having to repeat the year.

So OP i feel for you/ your friends its a **** situation.

 

[Rollo]

I have nothing to add aside from what has been noted...but I have TWO friends who were in this exact situation this past year with regard to "a minor course." They were both completely screwed by the school and one decided he was so insulted he dropped out, and the other is studying her ass off for the remediation that she is taking sometime this week. The one that dropped out failed a main course...but he would have remediated that this summer and come back to join the class this fall. The minor class was the nail in the coffin that pushed him over into having to repeat the year.

So OP i feel for you/ your friends its a **** situation.

How were these students screwed by the school?

The first student failed a minor course and is undergoing remediation. The second student failed a major and a minor course and has to repeat the year.

We go to the same school so I have some idea about which courses are minor and which are major in first year. But that still doesn't mean that we aren't to be held to a higher standard with any course, irregardless of its difficulty or its relevance.

If these people can't handle passing a minor course, AND can't handle the remediation of the minor course, then frankly, they don't belong in medicine. Responsibilities don't stop and they only get bigger and bigger as you go along. Being able to pass/re-mediate a "minor" course is just one of these responsibilities.

When will medical students learn to stop whining, man up, and take responsibilities for their actions and face the consequences that they have been told of before they start?

 

[dermpathdoc]

I don't know COCA rules, but in the allo world, the only time they have to have an appeal option is for dismissal, not for repeating the year.

quite right, but the school must list in their handbook that a prcedure is present for a process of appeal.

 

[dermpathdoc]

Where can one find COCA regulations? I've tried negotiating their website before, with little success...

perhaps because they keep revising the accreditation standars every 6 months.
this is the link for the new revised standards as of July 1, 2011

http://www.osteopathic.org/inside-a...dards-of-accreditation-effective-7-1-2011.pdf

 

[dermpathdoc]

I have nothing to add aside from what has been noted...but I have TWO friends who were in this exact situation this past year with regard to "a minor course." They were both completely screwed by the school and one decided he was so insulted he dropped out, and the other is studying her ass off for the remediation that she is taking sometime this week. The one that dropped out failed a main course...but he would have remediated that this summer and come back to join the class this fall. The minor class was the nail in the coffin that pushed him over into having to repeat the year.

So OP i feel for you/ your friends its a **** situation.

If the school handbook spells out exactly how many courses a student needs to fail to be dismissed... and how..as well as the process of appeal, the student needs to follow that...as does the school..the worse thing a school can do is string a failing student along for a whole semester who has no hope of ever remediating more than one course...
I know several schools that say a student that fails more than one course in a semester( with no distinction between major or minor courses...mind u)will have to remediate...they have options for remediating one course..but none for failing more than one...and then they go on to say...failure of 3 courses= instant dismissal

 

[swish05]

How were these students screwed by the school?

The first student failed a minor course and is undergoing remediation. The second student failed a major and a minor course and has to repeat the year.

We go to the same school so I have some idea about which courses are minor and which are major in first year. But that still doesn't mean that we aren't to be held to a higher standard with any course, irregardless of its difficulty or its relevance.

If these people can't handle passing a minor course, AND can't handle the remediation of the minor course, then frankly, they don't belong in medicine. Responsibilities don't stop and they only get bigger and bigger as you go along. Being able to pass/re-mediate a "minor" course is just one of these responsibilities.

When will medical students learn to stop whining, man up, and take responsibilities for their actions and face the consequences that they have been told of before they start?

Once again, it is not my purpose to say why this classmate has gotten the run around. It would require putting alot of details on here that would reveal the school and/or the individual. Frankly it is none of your business. Not once have you contributed anything useful so I am not sure why you feel the need to share your uneducated opinions. You do not know the situation and you are not meant to know the situation. Do you have any suggestions for a student who wants to fight their case if they feel like they deserve it? No, it doesn't seem like you do. I am sure it makes you feel so great about yourself to get on here and lecture about something you know nothing about. But your cocky attitude is not appreciated or needed.

 

[Rollo]

Once again, it is not my purpose to say why this classmate has gotten the run around. It would require putting alot of details on here that would reveal the school and/or the individual. Frankly it is none of your business. Not once have you contributed anything useful so I am not sure why you feel the need to share your uneducated opinions. You do not know the situation and you are not meant to know the situation. Do you have any suggestions for a student who wants to fight their case if they feel like they deserve it? No, it doesn't seem like you do. I am sure it makes you feel so great about yourself to get on here and lecture about something you know nothing about. But your cocky attitude is not appreciated or needed.

Someone lacks reading comprehension...

Read my first post.

 

[scummie]

How were these students screwed by the school?

The first student failed a minor course and is undergoing remediation. The second student failed a major and a minor course and has to repeat the year.

We go to the same school so I have some idea about which courses are minor and which are major in first year. But that still doesn't mean that we aren't to be held to a higher standard with any course, irregardless of its difficulty or its relevance.

If these people can't handle passing a minor course, AND can't handle the remediation of the minor course, then frankly, they don't belong in medicine. Responsibilities don't stop and they only get bigger and bigger as you go along. Being able to pass/re-mediate a "minor" course is just one of these responsibilities.

When will medical students learn to stop whining, man up, and take responsibilities for their actions and face the consequences that they have been told of before they start?

Agreed.

Read your student handbook. Everything should be spelled out there. Each school has their own remediation policy and variations thereof.

 

[costales]

There must be an appeal/grievance process somewhere in your handbook. FWIW I'm going to quote TCOM policy which I understand is typical of many state schools: "...Remediation may occur based upon the recommendations of the Student Performance Committee and the final approval of the associate dean of Academic Affairs... Failure to earn a grade of "70", or better, in a remediated course is grounds for dismissal from TCOM... The content, scope, and format of a remedial examination will be decided by the appropriate department or interdisciplinary unit. All examinations shall be equivalent to the course's original examinations in level of difficulty... If a student disagrees with the recommendation of the Student Performance Committee and the associate dean of academic affairs, he or she may appeal in writing within five days of notice to the dean of TCOM. The dean's decision is final."

 

[dermpathdoc]

The Dean's decision is final! Quite true! and it doesn't matter if the faculty disagrees with that decision.... because a student may be remediated despite faculty feeling the student has no chance.... or vice versa...

There must be an appeal/grievance process somewhere in your handbook. FWIW I'm going to quote TCOM policy which I understand is typical of many state schools: "...Remediation may occur based upon the recommendations of the Student Performance Committee and the final approval of the associate dean of Academic Affairs... Failure to earn a grade of "70", or better, in a remediated course is grounds for dismissal from TCOM... The content, scope, and format of a remedial examination will be decided by the appropriate department or interdisciplinary unit. All examinations shall be equivalent to the course's original examinations in level of difficulty... If a student disagrees with the recommendation of the Student Performance Committee and the associate dean of academic affairs, he or she may appeal in writing within five days of notice to the dean of TCOM. The dean's decision is final."