Whoot! Whoot! Most Idaho COM core sites are >500 miles away from Idaho COM campus

jkdoctor

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THIRD YEAR
ICOM’s third-year osteopathic medical students will be required to complete 12 core rotations. The required rotations for third year are listed below; all core rotations must be taken and completed at ICOM core rotation sites. Core rotations are clinical rotations involving patient care which are required to be completed at a ICOM affiliated clinical site with ICOM faculty.

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Cranjis McBasketball

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A little bit misleading since this doesnt say how many are located at each site.
 

DrStephenStrange

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A little bit misleading since this doesnt say how many are located at each site.
They can't just place half or more of the class in the only 3 ID sites either. If they did, that would be a crazy diluted experience for their students.
 
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A little bit misleading since this doesnt say how many are located at each site.
Core hospital assignments will take place in the fall of the second year with significant efforts to place students at their core sites of choice. Each core site will have a Regional Dean and Coordinator to facilitate a strong educational experience.
ICOM’s third- and fourth-year curriculum delivery occurs through the regional sites located in the states of Idaho, Montana, Wyoming, North and South Dakota and beyond. In the second year of the curriculum, students will be designated to a regional site. Regional site placement procedures are designed to support the mission of ICOM to recruit students to meet the health care workforce needs of the rural and medically underserved areas that we serve. The associate dean of clinical education has the authority to assign a student to a rotation site and/or a regional site.

ICOM students, please feel free to chime in. How many of you were assigned to each core site?
 
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NurWollen

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I get the point of this post but I mean think about it...you kinda have to do that in order to get a full experience with adequate patient load in a place as underpopulated as Idaho...
Idaho has plenty of people for a good clinical experience. More than several other states with established schools. The problem is ICOM, like almost all DO schools, doesn't want to pony up the money to make it worth hospital systems' time to train large numbers of students.

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I have straight up started telling all pre-meds that ask me to treat the new DO schools like they are Caribbean schools and to avoid them like the plague. It's time people need to realize what is going on, the AOA/COCA is taking a massive dump on every DO out there and honestly I'm worried they are truly ruining the profession and our degree is being delegitimized by their actions.

Which is sad because I feel like I've gotten a pretty solid education and am proud of my school, and I know a lot of people who feel the same. Unfortunately these new schools drag the rest of us into the mud with them.
 

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As long as people are crapping on Idaho, it should be noted that the state is losing one of ICOM's affiliated residencies this year. Bingham Hospital's IM program did not make the ACGME cut and its accreditation will be lost this summer.

[1401500545] Rocky Mountain Osteopathic Postgraduate Training Institution (RMOPTI)/Bingham Memorial Hospital Program Accreditation Withdrawn 06/30/2020 Internal medicine

As an item of note, RVU was the institutional sponsor here. Apparently, in part, they dropped the ball somehow. I also heard that a RVU sponsored/affiliated residency in Ogden, Utah will also fail to materialize as planned.
 

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I would never have thought a US medical school would be so nontransparent about their issues while still pushing for expansion.

They claimed to be creating ~80 residency slots in Idaho through a health system run by the chairman of ICOM's board: Idaho medical school confident Benefis will provide residencies

Unsurprisingly, it looks like most of those slots never materialized (and ACGME refused to even accredit most of them).
 

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As long as people are crapping on Idaho, it should be noted that the state is losing one of ICOM's affiliated residencies this year. Bingham Hospital's IM program did not make the ACGME cut and its accreditation will be lost this summer.

[1401500545] Rocky Mountain Osteopathic Postgraduate Training Institution (RMOPTI)/Bingham Memorial Hospital Program Accreditation Withdrawn 06/30/2020 Internal medicine

As an item of note, RVU was the institutional sponsor here. Apparently, in part, they dropped the ball somehow. I also heard that a RVU sponsored/affiliated residency in Ogden, Utah will also fail to materialize as planned.
Does not surprise me at all. I’m so ready to just graduate and get away from all of this garbage.
 

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I have straight up started telling all pre-meds that ask me to treat the new DO schools like they are Caribbean schools and to avoid them like the plague. It's time people need to realize what is going on, the AOA/COCA is taking a massive dump on every DO out there and honestly I'm worried they are truly ruining the profession and our degree is being delegitimized by their actions.

Which is sad because I feel like I've gotten a pretty solid education and am proud of my school, and I know a lot of people who feel the same. Unfortunately these new schools drag the rest of us into the mud with them.
But when do you even start? Schools have been opening for decades. CUSOM seems to be doing something right. WCU has clearly struggled. I honestly don't know how to give advice about most of these schools, other than simply saying, try to get into an older school.

Well, i'm hoping there will be a massive change in AOA/COCA leadership in the future.
Yeah, I was that naive once. I lost faith in them when they dropped the measly suggestion for a minimum graduate GME placement rate.

As long as people are crapping on Idaho, it should be noted that the state is losing one of ICOM's affiliated residencies this year. Bingham Hospital's IM program did not make the ACGME cut and its accreditation will be lost this summer.

[1401500545] Rocky Mountain Osteopathic Postgraduate Training Institution (RMOPTI)/Bingham Memorial Hospital Program Accreditation Withdrawn 06/30/2020 Internal medicine

As an item of note, RVU was the institutional sponsor here. Apparently, in part, they dropped the ball somehow. I also heard that a RVU sponsored/affiliated residency in Ogden, Utah will also fail to materialize as planned.
I've actually heard of quite a few RVU programs that didn't make the transition. They have not invested in getting this done. Its unfortunate.
 
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As long as people are crapping on Idaho, it should be noted that the state is losing one of ICOM's affiliated residencies this year. Bingham Hospital's IM program did not make the ACGME cut and its accreditation will be lost this summer.

[1401500545] Rocky Mountain Osteopathic Postgraduate Training Institution (RMOPTI)/Bingham Memorial Hospital Program Accreditation Withdrawn 06/30/2020 Internal medicine

As an item of note, RVU was the institutional sponsor here. Apparently, in part, they dropped the ball somehow. I also heard that a RVU sponsored/affiliated residency in Ogden, Utah will also fail to materialize as planned.
I would not expect anything less from the same people that owns SGU.
 

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But when do you even start? Schools have been opening for decades. CUSOM seems to be doing something right. WCU has clearly struggled. I honestly don't know how to give advice about most of these schools, other than simply saying, try to get into an older school.
Essentially if they haven't graduated a class yet or have yet to have published COMLEX, graduate, and Match outcomes then I say to not apply. Sure a school like ARCOM might turn out ok, but the brutal truth is that any new DO school is going to have a much higher chance of being ICOM/BCOM than CUSOM. Until a school proves that it's solid then it's far too much of a risk. It isn't just the principle of the matter either, I've rotated with some auditioners from new schools like NYIT-AR/BCOM and I can tell you first hand that these schools are producing an overall inferior product.
 

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As long as people are crapping on Idaho, it should be noted that the state is losing one of ICOM's affiliated residencies this year. Bingham Hospital's IM program did not make the ACGME cut and its accreditation will be lost this summer.

[1401500545] Rocky Mountain Osteopathic Postgraduate Training Institution (RMOPTI)/Bingham Memorial Hospital Program Accreditation Withdrawn 06/30/2020 Internal medicine

As an item of note, RVU was the institutional sponsor here. Apparently, in part, they dropped the ball somehow. I also heard that a RVU sponsored/affiliated residency in Ogden, Utah will also fail to materialize as planned.
They had initial accreditation. Must have slipped when up for continued accreditation. It's unfortunate, but Bingham probably shouldn't have had an IM residency to begin with. They had to do a large chunk of their inpatient stuff ~2 hours away in Utah.

I could have sworn the programs in Utah had initial accreditation, too.

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If a medical school cannot send its students to hospitals in its state, or within a 200 mile radius of the school, then it shouldn't exist. Period.

The only exception would be AT Still University, Kirksville because of the historical nature.
 
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For those students who did/doing rotations far away from their home campus:

Did you have to rent housing near your rotation site WHILE keep renting your apartment near your home campus? How do you afford/manage paying double rent? And this doesn't apply those of you who were able to live at home for your rotations.
 

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If a medical school cannot send its students to hospitals in its state, or within a 200 mile radius of the school, then it shouldn't exist. Period.

The only exception would be AT Still University, Kirksville because of the historical nature.
I'd make an exception for ATSU-SOMA as well. They make it clear from the outset that going away to a CHC starting 2nd year is a major part of the program.

AZCOM also sends students to a few different sites, but it's also pretty clear from the outset. I think a lot of schools are along these lines. But even then, half their class stays in-state.

But ICOM sending people to Corinth, MS? How does that even begin to fit into their stated mission of keeping people in the region?

At least PNWU keeps its students im the PNW.

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For those students who did/doing rotations far away from their home campus:

Did you have to rent housing near your rotation site WHILE keep renting your apartment near your home campus? How do you afford/manage paying double rent? And this doesn't apply those of you who were able to live at home for your rotations.
During rotations you're only located at your site. You don't have to keep paying rent at your old apartment near campus. Some schools like mine will have you come back on campus for a couple days for certain activities, but you can just use AirBnb or Hotel during those days.
 

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I'd make an exception for ATSU-SOMA as well. They make it clear from the outset that going away to a CHC starting 2nd year is a major part of the program.

AZCOM also sends students to a few different sites, but it's also pretty clear from the outset. I think a lot of schools are along these lines. But even then, half their class stays in-state.

But ICOM sending people to Corinth, MS? How does that even begin to fit into their stated mission of keeping people in the region?

At least PNWU keeps its students im the PNW.

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I think it should be minimum 80% of the class in-the-same-state or within a 200 mile radius. If that's not possible, reduce the incoming classes to make it so.

On a similar note, branch campuses are dumb and should be all eliminated. Philadelphia College of Osteopathic Medicine...Georgia. Tf?
 

ciestar

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For those students who did/doing rotations far away from their home campus:

Did you have to rent housing near your rotation site WHILE keep renting your apartment near your home campus? How do you afford/manage paying double rent? And this doesn't apply those of you who were able to live at home for your rotations.
My school is well known for the mess its clinical sites got into this year..
My school has a rule if it is more than an hour’s drive away from Philadelphia AND you’re not at the site for more than 10 consecutuve weeks, they provide housing. So, some students opt to do rotations farther away so they don’t have to pay for housing. Others opt for to try for one site for the entire year, but then you obviously pay for housing but stay in one place. Others just keep their housing where it is now and use the provided housing should they have to go farther away.
 
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ciestar

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During rotations you're only located at your site. You don't have to keep paying rent at your old apartment near campus. Some schools like mine will have you come back on campus for a couple days for certain activities, but you can just use AirBnb or Hotel during those days.
Some schools send you around to multiple sites. Drexel, Jeff, Temple, and PCOM all do. (RowanSOM as well)
 

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What advice would you give to a student whose only acceptance is ICOM? I read @--Gem post and thought there was some fair criticism and unfair criticism. I am still waiting to hear back from two D.O. schools and one M.D. school if that changes anything.
 

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What advice would you give to a student whose only acceptance is ICOM? I read @--Gem post and thought there was some fair criticism and unfair criticism. I am still waiting to hear back from two D.O. schools and one M.D. school if that changes anything.
Turning down a US med school acceptance to reapply is a terrible idea and can be a red flag. If ICOM is your only acceptance, then you really should go there. If you get any other acceptances, I would take those in a heartbeat given the issues ICOM is having.

You can still succeed no matter where you go; you just might have a tougher time at ICOM than other schools.
 
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Nave

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Turning down a US med school acceptance to reapply is a terrible idea and can be a red flag. If ICOM is your only acceptance, then you really should go there. If you get any other acceptances, I would take those in a heartbeat given the issues ICOM is having.

You can still succeed no matter where you go; you just might have a tougher time at ICOM than other schools.
I appreciate the quick response. What are you thoughts on the advent of all these new D.O. schools diluting educational standards and having a harder time matching for residency? Do you think the class of 2024 will be able to avoid that?
 

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I appreciate the quick response. What are you thoughts on the advent of all these new D.O. schools diluting educational standards and having a harder time matching for residency? Do you think the class of 2024 will be able to avoid that?
If ICOM is your only acceptance, then go. Be okay with going into primary care (honestly any incoming medical student, MD or DO, should accept that as a possibility). First 1.5-2 years of medical school are similar everywhere. Hopefully by the time you hit rotations, ICOM will have stabilized its hospital sites.
It's unavoidable that there'll be more DOs entering the Match with each given year.

Anyone with a slight amount of foresight knows that unchecked expansion (MD and DO both) is harmful to the degree in the long-run. I imagine they're trying to phase out FMGs, and US-IMGs by making it so they can go DO instead of the Caribbean or elsewhere. However, if they can't guarantee proper clinical sites in their own state or within a several hundred mile radius of the school or fulfill a state mission, then they shouldn't be allowed to exist. Also, there needs to be rigor getting into medical school. If the MD average is ~3.7/508, then the DO average, IMO, should be ~3.5/505.

Another problem is that there is no official ranking of DO schools. If somebody actually stratified schools based on GPA/MCAT, research funding, GMEs, etc., the residency programs wouldn't lump everyone together and actually see that the "top"/established schools are moderately competitive with stats on par to low-tier MDs.
 

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Personally I would turn down an ICOM acceptance and reapply. We’re to the point now where the risk of these new schools is too high for me to condone attending at all, ideally people just wouldn’t apply to such schools.
 

Nave

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If ICOM is your only acceptance, then go. Be okay with going into primary care (honestly any incoming medical student, MD or DO, should accept that as a possibility). First 1.5-2 years of medical school are similar everywhere. Hopefully by the time you hit rotations, ICOM will have stabilized its hospital sites.
It's unavoidable that there'll be more DOs entering the Match with each given year.

Anyone with a slight amount of foresight knows that unchecked expansion (MD and DO both) is harmful to the degree in the long-run. I imagine they're trying to phase out FMGs, and US-IMGs by making it so they can go DO instead of the Caribbean or elsewhere. However, if they can't guarantee proper clinical sites in their own state or within a several hundred mile radius of the school or fulfill a state mission, then they shouldn't be allowed to exist. Also, there needs to be rigor getting into medical school. If the MD average is ~3.7/508, then the DO average, IMO, should be ~3.5/505.

Another problem is that there is no official ranking of DO schools. If somebody actually stratified schools based on GPA/MCAT, research funding, GMEs, etc., the residency programs wouldn't lump everyone together and actually see that the "top"/established schools are moderately competitive with stats on par to low-tier MDs.
I am interested in anesthesiology. Which based on my research, has not been competitive in recent years. However, I feel that I could have a fulfilling career in family medicine or outpatient psychiatry. Other than that, I agree with everything you said and appreciate your opinion!
 
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Personally I would turn down an ICOM acceptance and reapply. We’re to the point now where the risk of these new schools is too high for me to condone attending at all, ideally people just wouldn’t apply to such schools.
Interesting. This seems to be the minority opinion. Could you explain why?
 
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Interesting. This seems to be the minority opinion. Could you explain why?
It really boils down to the level of risk you are willing to accept. I'm going to use WCU to illustrate my point because they had (are still having?) a rough start.
WCUs level 1 first time pass rate was 72%. That's over a quarter of the class with a massive red flag on their residency application.
CE first time pass rate was 77%. That is almost a quarter of the class with at least one if not two massive red flags on their app.
PE first time pass rate was ~85%. That's 15% of the class with 1-3 massive red flags on their app.
From their class sizes it looks like ~80% of the class graduated on time. That's 20% of the class with another red flag and $40k-60k more in loans.
Their first year Level 1 average was 443 or 20%.

Now understand that the inaugural class enrolled without knowing any of the above outcomes. If you were entering WCU gunning for Anesthesia and you received the average class score, you would have a ~50% chance of matching. Also, Anesthesiology has supposedly been increasing in competitiveness.

There's significant risk to attending a COM that hasn't graduated a class yet because you have no idea if you'll end up somewhere like WCU or somewhere like RVU (which has admittedly done quite well for a for profit school). I personally would rather have taken another year than attend a new COM.
 
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It really boils down to the level of risk you are willing to accept. I'm going to use WCU to illustrate my point because they had (are still having?) a rough start.
WCUs level 1 first time pass rate was 72%. That's over a quarter of the class with a massive red flag on their residency application.
CE first time pass rate was 77%. That is almost a quarter of the class with at least one if not two massive red flags on their app.
PE first time pass rate was ~85%. That's 15% of the class with 1-3 massive red flags on their app.
From their class sizes it looks like ~80% of the class graduated on time. That's 20% of the class with another red flag and $40k-60k more in loans.
Their first year Level 1 average was 443 or 20%.

Now understand that the inaugural class enrolled without knowing any of the above outcomes. If you were entering WCU gunning for Anesthesia and you received the average class score, you would have a ~50% chance of matching. Also, Anesthesiology has supposedly been increasing in competitiveness.

There's significant risk to attending a COM that hasn't graduated a class yet because you have no idea if you'll end up somewhere like WCU or somewhere like RVU (which has admittedly done quite well for a for profit school). I personally would rather have taken another year than attend a new COM.
Interesting analysis. Thanks.
Also consider that "2018 was the first year WCUCOM met its goal of 80% students matched into primary care."
 
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Actually, now that you mention it, I wonder if the reason why they only had 60% go into PC for the inaugural class was because a significant portion had to enter prelim/tri but now that their pass rate/scores have gone up, more are matching into categorical PC residencies.
 

Nave

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It really boils down to the level of risk you are willing to accept. I'm going to use WCU to illustrate my point because they had (are still having?) a rough start.
WCUs level 1 first time pass rate was 72%. That's over a quarter of the class with a massive red flag on their residency application.
CE first time pass rate was 77%. That is almost a quarter of the class with at least one if not two massive red flags on their app.
PE first time pass rate was ~85%. That's 15% of the class with 1-3 massive red flags on their app.
From their class sizes it looks like ~80% of the class graduated on time. That's 20% of the class with another red flag and $40k-60k more in loans.
Their first year Level 1 average was 443 or 20%.

Now understand that the inaugural class enrolled without knowing any of the above outcomes. If you were entering WCU gunning for Anesthesia and you received the average class score, you would have a ~50% chance of matching. Also, Anesthesiology has supposedly been increasing in competitiveness.

There's significant risk to attending a COM that hasn't graduated a class yet because you have no idea if you'll end up somewhere like WCU or somewhere like RVU (which has admittedly done quite well for a for profit school). I personally would rather have taken another year than attend a new COM.
I am unsure if WCU is a fair comparison given that there average MCAT and GPA is 500 and 3.4. ICOM class of 2023 had a 505 and 3.6 average. However, I take your point and I am concerned. What do you think about looking at the inaugural classes COMLEX/USMLE scores? They should be released in May/June before I potentially matriculate.
 
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I am unsure if WCU is a fair comparison given that there average MCAT and GPA is 500 and 3.4. ICOM class of 2023 had a 505 and 3.6 average. However, I take your point and I am concerned. What do you think about looking at the inaugural classes COMLEX/USMLE scores? They should be released in May/June before I potentially matriculate.
No, you have a very good point. Board performance is largely contingent on the student and since ICOM has higher matriculation stats, it stands to reason they'll perform better than WCU. Looking at their pass rate/board scores would be the best metric of preclinical education you could have. Unfortunately clinical education is much more difficult to quantify.
 

Nave

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No, you have a very good point. Board performance is largely contingent on the student and since ICOM has higher matriculation stats, it stands to reason they'll perform better than WCU. Looking at their pass rate/board scores would be the best metric of preclinical education you could have. Unfortunately clinical education is much more difficult to quantify.
Cheers!

What a scary time to be entering medical school. Would love to hear the thoughts of others as well.

Edit: @jkdoctor I was told at my interview day that around 40% of the student body would stay in Boise for third and fourth year.
 
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Here because of a name mention. That's fine if you don't agree with everything in my Reddit post.

If you have a Reddit account, go to that feed and there was someone in the exact same situation. I believe it was u/Thepoland. This was his only acceptance and he decided to reject it and apply to other schools the following year. He's now accepted to a few MD schools. You can message him directly on Reddit and he will be more than happy to answer your questions. We've spoken a few times and he's an excellent source of info/friendly guy.

I still stand by everything in my post, but would like to add that ICOM is not helping the physician shortage in Idaho because there aren't enough residency slots for both WWAMI and ICOM students. I don't believe there are even enough for the WWAMI students, who will be more competitive for those slots...

I am easier to contact through Reddit if you have any questions, comments, criticisms.
 

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Personally I would turn down an ICOM acceptance and reapply. We’re to the point now where the risk of these new schools is too high for me to condone attending at all, ideally people just wouldn’t apply to such schools.
I concur.
 

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Nave

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Here because of a name mention. That's fine if you don't agree with everything in my Reddit post.

If you have a Reddit account, go to that feed and there was someone in the exact same situation. I believe it was u/Thepoland. This was his only acceptance and he decided to reject it and apply to other schools the following year. He's now accepted to a few MD schools. You can message him directly on Reddit and he will be more than happy to answer your questions. We've spoken a few times and he's an excellent source of info/friendly guy.

I still stand by everything in my post, but would like to add that ICOM is not helping the physician shortage in Idaho because there aren't enough residency slots for both WWAMI and ICOM students. I don't believe there are even enough for the WWAMI students, who will be more competitive for those slots...

I am easier to contact through Reddit if you have any questions, comments, criticisms.
I am going to PM you on Reddit.
I concur.
I am also going to PM you. This is very concerning. I consider you an authority on all matters D.O. schools.
 
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ICOM looks so nice and shiny from the outside, but wow 500 miles away for core rotation sites is hard to fathom.

Good luck in the match my fellow class of 2024! May the odds be in our favor ... :shrug:
 
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I am unsure if WCU is a fair comparison given that there average MCAT and GPA is 500 and 3.4. ICOM class of 2023 had a 505 and 3.6 average. However, I take your point and I am concerned. What do you think about looking at the inaugural classes COMLEX/USMLE scores? They should be released in May/June before I potentially matriculate.
I do not understand the thought process of someone with an MCAT of 505 and a GPA of 3.6 deciding to go to ICOM.
There are many better schools that you could get into with those stats.
 

DrStephenStrange

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