Why are all the PH.D/Psy.D candidates and post docs leaving Arizona?

[MHlady2014]

(I attempted to find the specific school forum but was unable to do so...as in I'm not sure if it exists on SDN. But this is really asking more about psychology candidacies in AZ. Read on please. So if this post is in the wrong place, I'm new and sorry to offend!)
Hi! I'm really interested in doing the Ph.D at Arizona State University...for many reasons, including financial and personal on the location of Arizona. But I'm a bit worried. I noticed that the school's entire list of match sites that students have already matched at in the past only has 3 in the state of Arizona. Why does it look like all the Ph.D's (and heard the Psy.D's too) are leaving the state? I called the college and they said many leave to complete post docs in another state as well. I believe post doc isn't currently required in AZ, but I was told they do have them around. Can anyone shed some light on all this? I don't want to pick the wrong school and location since I want to settle down in AZ after finishing the program. I understand that I can't really pick during the match, but are there really only like 3 places to match in AZ? Why do people keep going out of state? Thanks for any info!

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[erg923]

Because there exists a world outside Arizona. And people may want to see it or relocate to it.

People also may be prioritizing their training needs and interests over location. Internships are competitive. Restricting yourself to just one state would be stupid.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Also, just bc a state doesn’t require a post-doc*, doesn’t mean you want to skip it and find yourself in a pinch if you relocate to a state (the vast majority of them) that require it. I’ve been licensed in three different states and they all required post-docs, so i’m not sure how it would work trying to apply without one.

*I consider this a race to the bottom in the profession bc many/most areas practice absolutely require a post-doc for competence....but that’s an argument for another day.

 

[Kadhir]

I think there are a fair number of places at which you can match. Just don't know how good they are. Arizona doesn't have a ton of "name brand" sites, relatively speaking. And I think UofA and State are both reputable clinical programs, so their students may be higher-achieving and prioritizing training, as erg mentioned.

Edit: After reading @foreverbull's post, I realized my post came across as making assumptions of the quality of training among Arizona internship sites. I actually have no idea about this part of the country and am guilty of the coastal bias. But yes, it is common to leave the state and good programs often have students with a variety of options available to them, making it more likely they will leave.

 

[foreverbull]

Worded another way, leaving the state for internship and/or postdoc is standard. The vast majority of my cohort left our grad school state for internships because we applied all over based on sites we thought would be a good fit. Intern applicants apply to sites based on specialty/site type and the competition everywhere is pretty high. It is less common to match in your own state.
Thus, it's not a red flag to see that interns matched elsewhere...it's pretty expected in our field and in medical school as well (they also have a national match process for residency).

 

[MHlady2014]

Because there exists a world outside Arizona. And people may want to see it or relocate to it.

People also may be prioritizing their training needs and interests over location. Internships are competitive. Restricting yourself to just one state would be stupid.

I am well aware there is a world outside Arizona (since I happen to have never lived on the West Coast and still don't at this time! Please don't assume and use judgmental language like that, it's really not becoming of a professional, nor is it helpful). I think information more regarding their placements not being well known and the programs being prestigious such as ForeverBull's answer and Kahdir's answer.

 

[MHlady2014]

Also, just bc a state doesn’t require a post-doc*, doesn’t mean you want to skip it and find yourself in a pinch if you relocate to a state (the vast majority of them) that require it. I’ve been licensed in three different states and they all required post-docs, so i’m not sure how it would work trying to apply without one.

*I consider this a race to the bottom in the profession bc many/most areas practice absolutely require a post-doc for competence....but that’s an argument for another day.

I agree a post doc is important and you are probably right that maybe that is why they are leaving. Thus, I wonder, do they not have many post-docs offered in AZ? I notice their law is currently talking about making the post doc required (or to my understanding). I just wanted to make sure this moving around of students had more to do with the match and more clinical/educational relate needs than the overall economy or other some other factor that I wouldn't be privy to knowing as I'm not even from the West Coast.

 

[psych.meout]

I am well aware there is a world outside Arizona (since I happen to have never lived on the West Coast and still don't at this time! Please don't assume and use judgmental language like that, it's really not becoming of a professional, nor is it helpful). I think information more regarding their placements not being well known and the programs being prestigious such as ForeverBull's answer and Kahdir's answer.

Erg gave you several concise and accurate answers to your questions. Pay more attention to what is said, and less attention to the way it is said. This is going to become an important skill should you continue pursuing clinical psychology. You'll encounter plenty of advisors, practicum supervisors, department heads, etc. that are far worse than someone being terse and blunt with you here.

 

[MHlady2014]

Erg gave you several concise and accurate answers to your questions. Pay more attention to what is said, and less attention to the way it is said. This is going to become an important skill should you continue pursuing clinical psychology. You'll encounter plenty of advisors, practicum supervisors, department heads, etc. that are far worse than someone being terse and blunt with you here.

I am well versed in "kissing up," taking criticism, blunt quips, and everything else in between. But he is NOT my advisor, my practicum supervisor, department head ..etc. He is a person on a forum. Period. I asked a direct question without any form of disrespect or attitude and I believe I should be afforded the same respect. Thus, I kindly and firmly disagree with your statement. And frankly, I did pay attention to what was said and there are several more posts on here that are more helpful that his.

 

[Justanothergrad]

 

[futureapppsy2]

Also, just bc a state doesn’t require a post-doc*, doesn’t mean you want to skip it and find yourself in a pinch if you relocate to a state (the vast majority of them) that require it. I’ve been licensed in three different states and they all required post-docs, so i’m not sure how it would work trying to apply without one.

*I consider this a race to the bottom in the profession bc many/most areas practice absolutely require a post-doc for competence....but that’s an argument for another day.

I also question how someone legitimately gets 1300 practicum hours pre-internship, unless they're on an 8 or 9 year plan, honestly.

 

[Justanothergrad]

I also question how someone legitimately gets 1300 practicum hours pre-internship, unless they're on an 8 or 9 year plan, honestly.

Or 1300 meaningful hours anyway.

 

[WisNeuro]

Or 1300 meaningful hours anyway.

Does that include support hours? If so, that's easily reached.

 

[psych.meout]

I am well versed in "kissing up," taking criticism, blunt quips, and everything else in between. But he is NOT my advisor, my practicum supervisor, department head ..etc. He is a person on a forum. Period. I asked a direct question without any form of disrespect or attitude and I believe I should be afforded the same respect. Thus, I kindly and firmly disagree with your statement. And frankly, I did pay attention to what was said and there are several more posts on here that are more helpful that his.

Whoosh
Nevermind then.

I also question how someone legitimately gets 1300 practicum hours pre-internship, unless they're on an 8 or 9 year plan, honestly.

Assuming that they are "legitimate," it's probably from someone who neglected the research side of things (e.g., no pubs, near zero posters), attends a PsyD program, and did more clinical hours to pick up extra money.

Or 1300 meaningful hours anyway.

And this is the crux of the matter assuming the hours are "legitimate." I'm highly skeptical that someone can get even close to 1300 F2F hours in the typical four to five years of doctoral programs and have them not mostly be accrued at their program's in-house clinic to bank as many hours as possible. This is likely related to the poor mentoring issue at programs with huge cohorts. If you don't have someone there to help guide you through the whole process, it's easily possible to develop misconceptions that can harm your competitiveness and career, e.g., focusing too much on the number of F2F hours and reports to the neglect of their quality and diversity.

Does that include support hours? If so, that's easily reached.

Possibly, but I've seen a couple of students from professional school PsyD programs on other forums quoting similar numbers just for F2F contact hours.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Let's all please remember to remain civil, professional, and on topic. Thanks.

RE: Postdoc, keep in mind that even if it's required by a state, it doesn't need to be a formal postdoc in all situations. So even if only a few sites are listed, other options may be available, such as simply working somewhere and having a licensed psychologist supervise X number of hours per week until the requirements are met. People do it fairly frequently in the VA for general mental health and related positions, for example. If there's a particular specialty desired, though, then it might not be a good choice.

Beyond that, I'm not sure why it is that many/most folks would leave the state other than that it's common across clinical and counseling psychology as a whole to move for internship and postdoc.

 

[WisNeuro]

And this is the crux of the matter assuming the hours are "legitimate." I'm highly skeptical that someone can get even close to 1300 F2F hours in the typical four to five years of doctoral programs and have them not mostly be accrued at their program's in-house clinic to bank as many hours as possible. This is likely related to the poor mentoring issue at programs with huge cohorts. If you don't have someone there to help guide you through the whole process, it's easily possible to develop misconceptions that can harm your competitiveness and career, e.g., focusing too much on the number of F2F hours and reports to the neglect of their quality and diversity.

1300 would be tough. I think I had a thousand, but it's easier to snag large swaths of hours as a npsych. I spent two years doing 2 days a week of neuro in different clinics at a large AMC. Those testing hours accrued quickly those two years. Also, as one of our only grad students in upper years who did sexual assault trauma work, my clinic was always full in the in-house clinic.

 

[Justanothergrad]

Does that include support hours? If so, that's easily reached.

With support sure. Sadly, I've seen folks with that many clinical hours. Both from junky schools and from good ones. Those from good schools will confide poor training at sites where they got tons of hours.

 

[WisNeuro]

With support sure. Sadly, I've seen folks with that many clinical hours. Both from junky schools and from good ones. Those from good schools will confide poor training at sites where they got tons of hours.

Yeah, interviewed someone with 1800 hours once. They were.......clunky when answering questions about supervision and such. Needless to say, they did not do well in our rankings. Quality of hours actually count more than quantity generally.

 

[Justanothergrad]

Yeah, interviewed someone with 1800 hours once. They were.......clunky when answering questions about supervision and such. Needless to say, they did not do well in our rankings. Quality of hours actually count more than quantity generally.

Man.... I bet that was entertaining

 

[psych.meout]

Yeah, interviewed someone with 1800 hours once. They were.......clunky when answering questions about supervision and such. Needless to say, they did not do well in our rankings. Quality of hours actually count more than quantity generally.

Examples, please?

 

[Groupthink]

Also, just bc a state doesn’t require a post-doc*, doesn’t mean you want to skip it and find yourself in a pinch if you relocate to a state (the vast majority of them) that require it. I’ve been licensed in three different states and they all required post-docs, so i’m not sure how it would work trying to apply without one.

*I consider this a race to the bottom in the profession bc many/most areas practice absolutely require a post-doc for competence....but that’s an argument for another day.

How are you defining Postdoc? I was hired straight out of internship and completed 2000 hours, 900 direct clinical hours, all supervised by a licensed psychologist, but this was not labeled a postdoc. I am now licensed. Are you now telling me that I am unable to get licensed in certain states because I did not undergo a "formal" APPCN or other institutional postdoctoral education?

 

[AcronymAllergy]

How are you defining Postdoc? I was hired straight out of internship and completed 2000 hours, 900 direct clinical hours, all supervised by a licensed psychologist, but this was not labeled a postdoc. I am now licensed. Are you now telling me that I am unable to get licensed in certain states because I did not undergo a "formal" APPCN or other institutional postdoctoral education?

I don't know of any states that only accept completion of a formal (e.g., APPCN) postdoc. All the regulations I've reviewed require X number of hours of patient care over Y period of time with Z number of hours of individual supervision per week from a licensed psychologist.

Some states stipulate that the supervising psychologist must be licensed in their jurisdiction or in the jurisdiction in which they're practicing, while others don't care. Some also stipulate the amount of time the supervisor must have been independently licensed to be eligible to supervise.

 

[WisNeuro]

Examples, please?

This was a couple of years ago at this point. It was mostly just a vague deflections and trying to talk around the shortcomings. I do a good job screening out applicants at this stage as I have more unilateral veto power in my current position when it comes to neuro focused people.

 

[WisNeuro]

How are you defining Postdoc? I was hired straight out of internship and completed 2000 hours, 900 direct clinical hours, all supervised by a licensed psychologist, but this was not labeled a postdoc. I am now licensed. Are you now telling me that I am unable to get licensed in certain states because I did not undergo a "formal" APPCN or other institutional postdoctoral education?

What AA said. Although, you may have trouble with boarding, depending on some other variables.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

I just wanted to make sure this moving around of students had more to do with the match and more clinical/educational relate needs than the overall economy or other some other factor that I wouldn't be privy to knowing as I'm not even from the West Coast.

It’s definitely good to ask these questions, as there are markets that have changed due to over-saturation, changes in requirements, and most importantly changes in laws.

It often depends on what your niche will be....just don’t be a generalist. You don’t need to know now, but being a Jack/Jackie of all (areas) and master of none can be an issue in the field too.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

I also question how someone legitimately gets 1300 practicum hours pre-internship, unless they're on an 8 or 9 year plan, honestly.

And the *quality* of those hours when they were completed. Not all hours are equal. I just don’t see how practica hours should count towards licensure bc the setting, responsibilities, level of training, etc. are all different than internship and post-doc.

Internship allowed for a bit more autonomy, but students don't understand how much they miss bc they are trainees and not staff/faculty. Post-doc (for me) taught me more real-world stuff than my prior 6 yrs of training...and we were still shielded from some of the admin/political stuff that happens at a job. I understand that not everyone wants or may need a 2yr post-doc, but at least 1yr. Being fully independent is just a different experience.

I would be a fraction of the clinician I am today w/o my fellowship years. Hundreds of hours of didactics and direct supervision, the experience of working a mostly full caseload, hundreds of clinical cases where I had other sets of eyes reviewing my work, etc. At the time it felt like a full caseload, but it wasn't until I became an assistant prof did I realize what a full caseload meant.

I know ppl will say “well neuro/rehab/forensics/etc. are different.” Yes, the speciality stuff matters, but just being a clinician and navigating core training stuff is tough: 72hr holds, ethical considerations of treatment, having to discharge with a bad but legally acceptable (per hospital lawyers) discharge plan, etc. I can’t imagine feeling comfortable with all of that just coming out of internship.

 

[PsyDr]

@futureapppsy2 @WisNeuro

There is a HUGE loophole in the internship application instructions for how hours are reported. Or at least there used to be. If someone actually reads the application instructions and fills in the form correctly, per the instructions, they should have zero problems reaching those hours.

No one actually reads the instructions, so.....

 

[WisNeuro]

@futureapppsy2 @WisNeuro

There is a HUGE loophole in the internship application instructions for how hours are reported. Or at least there used to be. If someone actually reads the application instructions and fills in the form correctly, per the instructions, they should have zero problems reaching those hours.

No one actually reads the instructions, so.....

Which loophole is this? The APPI instructions have changed slightly a couple times in recent years.

 

[PsyDr]

Which loophole is this? The APPI instructions have changed slightly a couple times in recent years.

Just looked. You're right. They closed them up.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

“Back in my day....” *rabble rabble rabble*



I still remember the ancient excel sheet I made to organize and total all of my hours. It lasted a number of years after me until APPIC tweaked how they classified certain hours.

 

[mypointlesspov]

Just looked. You're right. They closed them up.

What loophole was this? Were people counting support hours as f2f or something?

Right now, I have like 1,100 hours total, and only like 400 f2f. I can't even imagine how much work it would take to get to 1,300 f2f.

 

[theSteppenwolf]

I’m a doc student at ASU. I can tell you that most students are from out of state (as with most PhD programs). As others have already stated, limiting yourself geographically for internship and post doc is not a good idea.