Why are Nurses paid so well???

[fab4fan]

Wow, nice numbers quoted around here for nurses.

But despite the fact that nurses make pretty good salary for the amount of time in school, why is there still a lopsided gender ratio of nurses and nursing students in school? Is it the perceived stigma that nursing is a 'female' profession'? I mean, guys go into two or four year degree programs en mass to make the same or less amount of money as nurses yet the nursing school next to my med school is still predominately female.

I suggest you do a search of the archives here about men in nursing; lots of sexist, stereotypical comments. Then think about how male nurses have been portrayed in the media.

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[Faebinder]

I suggest you do a search of the archives here about men in nursing; lots of sexist, stereotypical comments. Then think about how male nurses have been portrayed in the media.

No kiddin.. did you see the movie "Meet The Parents"?

 

[core0]

Wow, nice numbers quoted around here for nurses.

But despite the fact that nurses make pretty good salary for the amount of time in school, why is there still a lopsided gender ratio of nurses and nursing students in school? Is it the perceived stigma that nursing is a 'female' profession'? I mean, guys go into two or four year degree programs en mass to make the same or less amount of money as nurses yet the nursing school next to my med school is still predominately female.

Actually if you look at the numbers of males going to college vs. females the numbers are overwhelmingly female. This is probably not only reflected in nursing but other vocations such as med school. The PA profession which used to be overwhelmingly male, but now shows a majority of female students.

David Carpenter, PA-C

 

[Faebinder]

Actually if you look at the numbers of males going to college vs. females the numbers are overwhelmingly female. This is probably not only reflected in nursing but other vocations such as med school. The PA profession which used to be overwhelmingly male, but now shows a majority of female students.

David Carpenter, PA-C

Yup there are more women docs in med school now than men.

 

[MountainPharmD]

Jesus........

My bro is an RN and he makes $45 an hour. And he just spent 4 years in college gettin his BSN. And his wife is an NP and she makes about the same as a Pharmacist.

I wonder why the hell they make so much more than anyone else with only an undergrad degree?

It must be a supply and demand thing.
Everytime I look at the list of jobs in a hospital they need like 50 nurses in all these different departments.

Do you think Nurses will always be in high demand like they are?
And do you think the pay will decline within a few years??

my god, they are makin a ton of money.

I am not sure what area you are talking about but the nurses in my area (midwest) are not even close to that. Maybe a floor charge nurse with 20 years experience might be pulling 50K.

There are many reasons why there is a nursing shortage. One of the big ones is the low pay.

 

[NonTradMed]

Actually if you look at the numbers of males going to college vs. females the numbers are overwhelmingly female. This is probably not only reflected in nursing but other vocations such as med school. The PA profession which used to be overwhelmingly male, but now shows a majority of female students.

David Carpenter, PA-C

What I mean is that there's a disproportionate number of females in nursing school. The ratio of girls to guys in college is tilted slightly towards the gals, and med school is starting to reflect that, however the nursing school nearby is like 2/3rd female and 2/3rd of the college population is NOT female, which means guys are avoiding the profession and/or girls are more attracted to it than guys. I guess stigma has something to do with it, since when you think of nursing, you think of pink scrubs but given the nice pay for nursing, I'm just surprised that there aren't more guys in it.

 

[HoodyHoo]

They clean up after the Doc's crap, that's why. That and the fact that they really do more than 80% of patient related care. Who really takes care of the patient? The nurses.

"They can make your life easier, they can make your life miserable. Whatever you did, I suggest you apologize to them immediately."

True, but the decisions that are the most vital to patient care are still made by the physician. Although many nurses have a decent knowledge of medicine, they don't have training in pathophysiology of disease processes, drug interactions, clinical presentations, etc......which is the underlying key to treating patients and their medical conditions.

 

[fab4fan]

MinnyGophers wrote:

They clean up after the Doc's crap, that's why. That and the fact that they really do more than 80% of patient related care. Who really takes care of the patient? The nurses.

"They can make your life easier, they can make your life miserable. Whatever you did, I suggest you apologize to them immediately."

True, but the decisions that are the most vital to patient care are still made by the physician. Although many nurses have a decent knowledge of medicine, they don't have training in pathophysiology of disease processes, drug interactions, clinical presentations, etc......which is the underlying key to treating patients and their medical conditions.

Yeah, yeah, you have a vastly superior knowledge than nurses do. Most of us get that. (We also get that some med students feel the need to downplay what nurses do know, and that most attendings count on us to be their eyes and ears for the pt. when they're not around.) While we may not have the extensive knowledge that you do, we are the ones who are with the pt. for 8-12h a day, day in, day out.

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt that you didn't intend for this to come across as arrogantly as it sounded. Of course, if I am reading your "Public Profile" correctly, you really aren't even an MSIV yet, so you don't have a whole lot of experience in understanding just how important a good working relationship is with the nursing staff, and how you will need their assessments of the pt. to help you guide your treatment plan.

There are some docs where I work who don't understand why nursing staff seems to choose other docs over them for surgery/hospital care. Big clue: Treat the staff like crap and it will cost you, not just in the politics of the floor, but in real $$ from lost referrals. Think we don't talk to friends and family about which docs to go to and which ones to run from? I don't usually need to say anything; my silence speaks for itself.

As far as nurses raking in the dough, I get paid the equivalent of $1/h per years of experience. I've been a nurse 22y...you do the math. Oh yeah, I'm just rollin' in it.

 

[core0]

What I mean is that there's a disproportionate number of females in nursing school. The ratio of girls to guys in college is tilted slightly towards the gals, and med school is starting to reflect that, however the nursing school nearby is like 2/3rd female and 2/3rd of the college population is NOT female, which means guys are avoiding the profession and/or girls are more attracted to it than guys. I guess stigma has something to do with it, since when you think of nursing, you think of pink scrubs but given the nice pay for nursing, I'm just surprised that there aren't more guys in it.

Actually the student population is more than 60% female. It is even higher than that for first generation college students and older students. So if anything nursing is fairly representative of college students overall.

David Carpenter, PA-C

 

[flighterdoc]

I am not sure what area you are talking about but the nurses in my area (midwest) are not even close to that. Maybe a floor charge nurse with 20 years experience might be pulling 50K.

There are many reasons why there is a nursing shortage. One of the big ones is the low pay.

They should move to Los Angeles, then: An entry level nurse (no experience, just a BSN) can get $70K plus shift differential. An experienced nurse (in pretty much any specialty) can get $90K plus shift differential plus signing bonus which can include a new car, plus very good benefits.

 

[fab4fan]

They should move to Los Angeles, then: An entry level nurse (no experience, just a BSN) can get $70K plus shift differential. An experienced nurse (in pretty much any specialty) can get $90K plus shift differential plus signing bonus which can include a new car, plus very good benefits.

That's not much to live on in LA. When you take into account the cost of living, it would be nearly impossible to make ends meet and own a house. And while some nurses make those wages, the average nurse does not. About the only way you can really make $$$ as a staff nurse is to work for a travel agency and work quite a bit more than 40h/week.

Sure, you can find some cases here and there where nurses make high wages, but the reality is that most nurses are under-compensated, considering the level of responsibility the job entails plus the many difficulties inherent with the job.

 

[Faebinder]

That's not much to live on in LA. When you take into account the cost of living, it would be nearly impossible to make ends meet and own a house. And while some nurses make those wages, the average nurse does not. About the only way you can really make $$$ as a staff nurse is to work for a travel agency and work quite a bit more than 40h/week.

Sure, you can find some cases here and there where nurses make high wages, but the reality is that most nurses are under-compensated, considering the level of responsibility the job entails plus the many difficulties inherent with the job.

Agreed. It seems to be a trend of the entire healthcare industry.... Wages are down. Docs, mid levels, nurses, adminstrators, therapists... you name it. Blame medicare/medicaid cuts.... and now we go back to the good old discussion... should EMTALA go away.. heh.

 

[MountainPharmD]

That's not much to live on in LA. When you take into account the cost of living, it would be nearly impossible to make ends meet and own a house. And while some nurses make those wages, the average nurse does not. About the only way you can really make $$$ as a staff nurse is to work for a travel agency and work quite a bit more than 40h/week.

Sure, you can find some cases here and there where nurses make high wages, but the reality is that most nurses are under-compensated, considering the level of responsibility the job entails plus the many difficulties inherent with the job.

Exactly correct. Going back and reading some of these posts I find most of the high nurse saleries quoted are for agency nurses. They get paid the high wage because they usually do not get any benefits. Ask any nurse what they think of agency nurses, its not good.

 

[logos]

Exactly correct. Going back and reading some of these posts I find most of the high nurse saleries quoted are for agency nurses. They get paid the high wage because they usually do not get any benefits. Ask any nurse what they think of agency nurses, its not good.

Really? The few travelers i've had experience with were ultra-competant, much better than average. The impression I get is that its the best gig. They are better paid than the local nurses and the company pays for their apartment in town, car, and living expenses. The hospital hates to hire them because they cost several times what a regular nurse costs, but they are often forced to.

I keep trying to get a couple of my friends from high school that are floundering a bit to get into nursing. Its a good job for someone who is willing to really work hard, the education is quick (2yrs of CC) and the salary around here is pretty good (i think mid 40s starting plus signing bonuses ...keep hearing 5k, but you have to stay 2 years to keep the whole bonus...). Plus they add extra money for things like bachelors degree, ACLS cert, AORN, CNFA. A friend of mine got an extra several bucks an hour for having two bachelors degrees and a couple of day "breast feeding educator" course. Her other degree isnt related to nursing at all and her BSN took her about a year after college to get. Plus there is always the opportunity for 1.5x and 2x pay working overtime.

All in all I think its a great job for people who are really willing to work hard for a good living. The hospitals really are competing for nurses. Around here they are always changing their bonuses and so on to attract people. A fair number of people bounce from hospital to hospital every few years picking up the bonuses.

 

[fab4fan]

Agency nurses are really not a lot different from any other nurses. There are always a few bad apples anywhere, so I wouldn't say agency nurses tend to be the worst ones. The problem with agency work is you can get floated or cancelled on a moment's notice. Some agencies offer bennies, but then the pay is lower. It's not exactly a lifestyle that's conducive to having a family unless you're able to contract with an agency that can place you in local facilities. And some agencies make their placements at hospitals where the nurses are striking...a huge potential can of worms.

Here is a quote from a 2004 government study of nurses' wages:

Average Earnings

Changes in average earnings of RNs were examined based on the actual average earnings of RNs employed full-time in the labor market and the “real” average earnings (average earnings inflated by the consumer price index (CPI) [2] for 1980-2004). The actual average annual earnings of RNs employed full-time in 2004 were $57,784 which appears to be an increase from average earnings in 2000 ($46,782).

When changes in the purchasing power of the dollar are taken into account utilizing the CPI, the “real” earnings of RNs employed full-time in 2004 were estimated as $26,366 compared to $17,398 in 1980 and $23,369 in 2000. This change represents a 12.8 percent increase since 2000 and is the first significant up-turn in “real” earnings since 1988. Between 1988 and 1992 RNs experienced an 11.2 percentage increase in “real” earnings, but “real” salaries were relatively flat from 1992 through 2000 (Chart 7).

The entire text can be found at this site.

 

[ForbiddenComma]

Since everything I know about life I get through TV... I find it interesting how shockingly disrespectful the TV shows are towards nurses. All that matters are the doctors. They're the ones who save the day, they're the ones with the paddles shouting "CLEAR", they're the only ones in the opening credits. Nurses are to be seen and not heard, and usually they aren't seen either. In Grey's Anatomy, the only nurse with an actual name is Olivia the syphillis girl. House is worst of all.. nurses never have any lines and House snarls "you were just leaving now" or something when he comes into the room.

Anyway... part of why nurses are often well-compensated is because doctors tend to steal the glory. They deserve more pay.

 

[Chronic Student]

You need to watch SCRUBS more.

-Mike

 

[ForbiddenComma]

That show has jumped the shark bigtime. What the hell is up with Dr. Cox's hair??

 

[Chronic Student]

Due to my schedule I've just been watching the older, syndicated stuff and laugh my behind off.

From what I've seen of the more recent stuff I agree It's getting a bit out there. "Jumping the shark", indeed.

Though, it's a very nice perm.

-Mike

 

[NonTradMed]

Actually the student population is more than 60% female. It is even higher than that for first generation college students and older students. So if anything nursing is fairly representative of college students overall.

David Carpenter, PA-C

Do you have stats for that 60%? This is the first time I've heard of it. If that is true, then I should be asking myself why is our med school so underrepresented in females---we are 58% males!

 

[zenman]

There are some docs where I work who don't understand why nursing staff seems to choose other docs over them for surgery/hospital care. Big clue: Treat the staff like crap and it will cost you, not just in the politics of the floor, but in real $$ from lost referrals. Think we don't talk to friends and family about which docs to go to and which ones to run from? I don't usually need to say anything; my silence speaks for itself.

At an ICU I worked at we put up a white board that was our "****" list for the current doctor who earned the title. Well, you know how competitive surgeons are...one sat down, looked at the board and said, " how do I get my name up there?"

 

[fab4fan]

At an ICU I worked at we put up a white board that was our "****" list for the current doctor who earned the title. Well, you know how competitive surgeons are...one sat down, looked at the board and said, " how do I get my name up there?"

That is too funny!

 

[caroladybelle]

All I remember being said is that they make friggin bank. Way more than comparable levels of education, in most cases.

Its not every field that you can go anywhere in the developed world and have a job in 48 hrs where you can pick a schedule you want and pull down good money, and if somebody gets on your precious little nerves you can go next door and probably make more.

First, we do not "make friggin' bank" everywhere. Go to Mississippi, Panhandle Florida, N. Dakota or Kansas, where they are doing good to get $20/hr w/experience. Where MD offices pay 10-12/hr.

There are actually few places where you will make over $25 starting out

You cannot go anywhere in the developed world and get a job in 48 hours. There are huge numbers of Canadian and British nurses that cannot find full time employment/jobs w/benefits. Try Boston, MA where new grads are finding a tough job market. There a number of cities that have rather tight job markets.

Pick a schedule that you want...dream on. Walk on to the local nursing BB to see the fights over Holidays and night shifts. Most jobs you will work every other weekend.

Quit if someone gets on your nerves and go next door..... In many places, you must give 30 days notice. And if you leave any job without the required notice or tick anyone off in the process, and you will find yourself listed on GroupOne and thus blackballed from many jobs in some areas.
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Second, there is no shortage on RNs in the nation. The most recent stats that I have seen are there are 500,000 licensed nurses in the USA that are not employed as nurses. There are 180,000 open positions. Even if you eliminate those for some reason physically unable to work (and how many of those were injured on the job), that still leaves quite a few that are choosing not to "make friggin' bank" for some reason. Either other jobs pay more "friggin' bank" or they have substantially better hours, conditions, etc.

Third, yes, there are not enough schools/positions for schools for Nursing. But I suggestion review some the post grad stats. I graduated in 1993. My class started with 72 students, graduated 27. All that took Boards, passed Boards - 3 didn't write boards because they no longer wanted to be RNs. Two years later, 17 were still nurses (or in NP/CRNA school, etc.). Five years later only 11 were still working in nursing fields (or NP/CRNA).

PS. those 72 chosen for that class - there were over 500 qualified applicants for those seats.

Now some of the loss is temporary - those pesky childbearing/childcare issues. But the average age of the students was 34 years old.

Those are not good stats for retention of people in this profession. Obviously "bank" is not enough.

And one can go over to that nameless nursing BB - to see the number of threads, of recent (within the last year) grads that are talking about already quitting the profession.

 

[Nasrudin]

First, we do not "make friggin' bank" everywhere. Go to Mississippi, Panhandle Florida, N. Dakota or Kansas, where they are doing good to get $20/hr w/experience. Where MD offices pay 10-12/hr.

hose are not good stats for retention of people in this profession. Obviously "bank" is not enough.

And one can go over to that nameless nursing BB - to see the number of threads, of recent (within the last year) grads that are talking about already quitting the profession.

I understand i was making the use of hyperbole. And of course wages of 20/hr is relative to the cost of living--in the places you mention you can buy a house for an amount that might get you a parking space where I live.

What people who have never busted their nuts for no money at all consistently forget--nurses to larger extent for some reason--is that it sucks out their for all of us. The stats you cite do not isolate any variables for causation so your arguement that nursing pay and job satisfaction are the cause for lack of employee retainment are not supported by them. But I'm sure in general you are stating commn sense reasons for attrition rates.

If you simply are making the case that RN's have a stressful, thankless job that demands more sacrafice than it offers in psychological rewards well then, I agree and am not pursuing the career because of it.

But the operative word when it comes to physicians, and nurses, and whoever expressing job disatisfaction is "talking." Because its simple: If you're not getting what you want from what your doing make the change. It's America, you can do whatever you want in this country. I am 33 years old with wrecked credit, living check to check, and I've got all my chips on the table trying to get into medical school...and I'm loving it and despite the fact that it ain't easy you will not hear a peep of complaint from me. I am thankful to be alive and to be challenging myself.

Nurses make enough to make a transition into many different career avenues some that involve patient care and some that don't. If you don't want to hear it from me take it from the thousands who wait in long lines to get into this country for a chance to practice as a nurse for whatever they will pay, just as their is a line of premeds miles long waiting to be picked out of the thousands of applicants for a chance to study medicine. Either we're all insane and you should run for your life. Or just maybe you've got something we want for our families and if you make an an open spot nobody's going to lament your absence they're just gonna grab the ball and run.

So you can clamour about the unfairness of it all if you want. Me?...I'm too hungry for my shot to care about the unfairness and injustice of things that I hear about all the time from the legions of aging healthcare professionals. Such is life.

 

[8744]

Man. Just wait until some of you get to the ICU and you will realize why nurses should get paid a whole lot more than they do.

 

[Nasrudin]

Man. Just wait until some of you get to the ICU and you will realize why nurses should get paid a whole lot more than they do.

If I get there Mr Panda Bear. I will gladly eat a cold crap sandwich, with side of premed jack@ss opinion slaw. But right now I gotta make it hoisting patients around on a bad bad back for peanuts until i can get my shot to get where you are. Perspective is a question of where you are i suppose.

 

[8744]

Yea, the nurses can't become doctors at least as easy as being promoted to manager.

As far as that second statement regarding being very nice to the nurses, man...that really irks me. I'm not the kind of person to give extra treatment for someone who is being paid to do their job. I guess it depends on what type of physician one is. For radiologist, I doubt they care much since there is little interaction. At least according to a couple of my friends that are in rads.

Not sure how stuff goes down during rotations in med school, but I think hours are set and attendings tell you what to do. I know they can put more work on you than others, but I'm sure you could tell your med professors about it if you start to fall behind in studying for shelfs. I guess for rads, the 1 year IM would deal more with nurses at least compared to being in rad diagnostic residency.

You are going to get eaten alive as an intern. Promise me you will tell that to all the nurses on your first day.

If the nurses like and respect you everything runs smoother when you are a resident. You can earn their respect by taking their concerns for their patient seriously when they page you at 3AM and by listening to their advice when they give it.

Never send a patient home when your senior nurses tell you that something is not right and you need to go re-examine or otherwise work up a patient.

You can also earn the nurses respect by beng confident in what you know but not trying to bull**** anybody when you don't. The nurses, respiratory therapists, and nutritionists are your allies. It doesn't make you a ******* if you listen to their advice, provided it is good advice and you know enough to make a decision.

You can get them to like you by not being a prick. Basicly by doing little things like cleaning up your mess after you do a procedure. If they do it for you it's either because you're a dickhead or because they genuinely want to help you. Or thanking them for their help which can be considerable. The nurses in the ICU, for example, do 95 percent of the real work of patient care. We put in lines and intubate. The nurses do the rest.


Man, WilliamsF1, you need to give everybody who works for you "extra treatment" all the time. Not only do they deserve it but it makes the difference between having people just doing the bare minimum required on your behalf and actively looking after you.

 

[8744]

If I get there Mr Panda Bear. I will gladly eat a cold crap sandwich, with side of premed jack@ss opinion slaw. But right now I gotta make it hoisting patients around on a bad bad back for peanuts until i can get my shot to get where you are. Perspective is a question of where you are i suppose.

I am not busting down on you. I think your current job will give you a great perspective that most of us don't have.

 

[Nasrudin]

Oh i know man, i'm just acknowledging your point as a good one. I'm a fan of your blog by the way. cheers!

 

[HoodyHoo]

MinnyGophers wrote:





Yeah, yeah, you have a vastly superior knowledge than nurses do. Most of us get that. (We also get that some med students feel the need to downplay what nurses do know, and that most attendings count on us to be their eyes and ears for the pt. when they're not around.) While we may not have the extensive knowledge that you do, we are the ones who are with the pt. for 8-12h a day, day in, day out.

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt that you didn't intend for this to come across as arrogantly as it sounded. Of course, if I am reading your "Public Profile" correctly, you really aren't even an MSIV yet, so you don't have a whole lot of experience in understanding just how important a good working relationship is with the nursing staff, and how you will need their assessments of the pt. to help you guide your treatment plan.

There are some docs where I work who don't understand why nursing staff seems to choose other docs over them for surgery/hospital care. Big clue: Treat the staff like crap and it will cost you, not just in the politics of the floor, but in real $$ from lost referrals. Think we don't talk to friends and family about which docs to go to and which ones to run from? I don't usually need to say anything; my silence speaks for itself.

As far as nurses raking in the dough, I get paid the equivalent of $1/h per years of experience. I've been a nurse 22y...you do the math. Oh yeah, I'm just rollin' in it.

No I'm not trying to sound arrogant and I will be the first one to tell you that I feel like I don't know $hit. No medical student on rotations knows much of anything. But every doctor has to go through that. I've been super nice to the nurses I work with and I appreciate the ones that work with me to help me learn. However some of them have an enormous chip on their shoulder and no matter how nice I am they are still rude. However I think this is likely more of an aspect of their character. Students have no place in the hospital to show arrogance toward a nurse.......however on the flipside of that a nurse needs to realize that these students are trying to learn and you as a nurse are also a vital part of their learning process.

 

[fab4fan]

No I'm not trying to sound arrogant and I will be the first one to tell you that I feel like I don't know $hit. No medical student on rotations knows much of anything. But every doctor has to go through that. I've been super nice to the nurses I work with and I appreciate the ones that work with me to help me learn. However some of them have an enormous chip on their shoulder and no matter how nice I am they are still rude. However I think this is likely more of an aspect of their character. Students have no place in the hospital to show arrogance toward a nurse.......however on the flipside of that a nurse needs to realize that these students are trying to learn and you as a nurse are also a vital part of their learning process.

I don't know where I said we weren't. In fact, I have made numerous posts on how I feel about nurses who bully med students. You are correct, nurses who are nasty are probably nasty people, period.

Anything I would say further about how rudeness can be part of the hospital's vicious cycle would be repetition. And I apologize for my misunderstanding of your previous post.

 

[zenman]

Oh i know man, i'm just acknowledging your point as a good one. I'm a fan of your blog by the way. cheers!

He does have a good blog, but it's just doctor stuff, lol. I think he ought to put it all in a book. That reminds me, let me go put a link to his blog on mine. How could I have forgotten!

 

[Nasrudin]

How do I find your blog zen?

 

[zenman]

Oh, sorry ...http://underthemosquitonet.blogspot.com/

 

[mellowmarshall]

As to the OP's subject of nurse salary, I'd have to disagree with those who think nurses are underpaid. Their starting salaries are higher than most Bachelor's-degree starting salaries, and in some places (as has been stated several times) are further inflated. Has anyone taken the time to consider that nurses are in higher demand because they are much cheaper than doctors?

Nurse salaries are inflated while doctor salaries are on the decline, and nurses are in higher demand because everyone wants a bigger piece of the pie and its coming out of our metaphorical pockets.

Which brings up a third point (which I apologize for in advance if you are one of the few excellent nurses out there): The average nurse is not, I repeat, not in any way, shape, or form, qualified or proficient enough to make the decisions required of a doctor. Let me explain -

I am an MLT and in the two short years I have worked, in three hospitals, I have found that a large proportion of nurses are very narrow minded in the sense that they have no concept of holistic medicine. Someone mentioned that nurses "spend 8-12 hours a day with the patient" and yet they do not remember their names, which room they are in, what tests were ordered, and most importantly, often have no more than a vague concept of what the patient's lab results suggest. As an example, at minimum once per day, I have to explain such things as the significance of renal function panels (i.e. "Why is that a critical? What does this number mean?"), the importance of measuring a trough before administering a drug, why grossly hemolyzed specimens cannot be tested, why a pre-op PT (really INR) becomes critical at a lower value, etc.

And that is all in addition to irresponsible acts not related to lab results such as calling the lab (this really happened!) to ask why I continued to cancel tests ordered on a patient who had expired more than 24hrs previously, which the patient's nurse was unaware of. That means that for three consecutive shifts, three consecutive nurses neglected to investigate why the room of an active-status patient was empty, even after orders for tests were requested on a patient that nurse never saw, and despite the fact that there was no patient available to collect specimens from.

My point is not to suggest that neglect is entirely the fault of poor nursing - we have all heard the stories of malpractice lawsuits. I am simply concerned that the replacing of doctors with underqualified nurses, paired with the high demand and high salaries for the same, is producing a horde of direct care providers who are increasingly negligent and oblivious to the holistic implications of a patient's health.


On a side note, if any of you subscribe to a medical journal (other than NEJM) could you please email me some information about it to [email protected] ? Thanks.

 

[zenman]

The average nurse is not, I repeat, not in any way, shape, or form, qualified or proficient enough to make the decisions required of a doctor.

But we are forced to all the time.

I have found that a large proportion of nurses are very narrow minded in the sense that they have no concept of holistic medicine. Someone mentioned that nurses "spend 8-12 hours a day with the patient" and yet they do not remember their names, which room they are in, what tests were ordered, and most importantly, often have no more than a vague concept of what the patient's lab results suggest.

Most of the nurses I know are suffering from PTSD due to the crap they have to put up with and it's a wonder they know their own names. And FYI, it's almost impossible to practice "holistic" medicine in a hospital. I don't think you have a clue about holistic medicine.

On a side note, if any of you subscribe to a medical journal (other than NEJM) could you please email me some information about it to [email protected] ? Thanks.

Give me a break smart boy...go look them up yourself...nurses have to read all the time.

Usually, I'm a nice guy, lol

 

[8744]

As to the OP's subject of nurse salary, I'd have to disagree with those who think nurses are underpaid. Their starting salaries are higher than most Bachelor's-degree starting salaries, and in some places (as has been stated several times) are further inflated. Has anyone taken the time to consider that nurses are in higher demand because they are much cheaper than doctors?

Nurse salaries are inflated while doctor salaries are on the decline, and nurses are in higher demand because everyone wants a bigger piece of the pie and its coming out of our metaphorical pockets.

Which brings up a third point (which I apologize for in advance if you are one of the few excellent nurses out there): The average nurse is not, I repeat, not in any way, shape, or form, qualified or proficient enough to make the decisions required of a doctor. Let me explain -

I am an MLT and in the two short years I have worked, in three hospitals, I have found that a large proportion of nurses are very narrow minded in the sense that they have no concept of holistic medicine. Someone mentioned that nurses "spend 8-12 hours a day with the patient" and yet they do not remember their names, which room they are in, what tests were ordered, and most importantly, often have no more than a vague concept of what the patient's lab results suggest. As an example, at minimum once per day, I have to explain such things as the significance of renal function panels (i.e. "Why is that a critical? What does this number mean?"), the importance of measuring a trough before administering a drug, why grossly hemolyzed specimens cannot be tested, why a pre-op PT (really INR) becomes critical at a lower value, etc.

And that is all in addition to irresponsible acts not related to lab results such as calling the lab (this really happened!) to ask why I continued to cancel tests ordered on a patient who had expired more than 24hrs previously, which the patient's nurse was unaware of. That means that for three consecutive shifts, three consecutive nurses neglected to investigate why the room of an active-status patient was empty, even after orders for tests were requested on a patient that nurse never saw, and despite the fact that there was no patient available to collect specimens from.

My point is not to suggest that neglect is entirely the fault of poor nursing - we have all heard the stories of malpractice lawsuits. I am simply concerned that the replacing of doctors with underqualified nurses, paired with the high demand and high salaries for the same, is producing a horde of direct care providers who are increasingly negligent and oblivious to the holistic implications of a patient's health.


On a side note, if any of you subscribe to a medical journal (other than NEJM) could you please email me some information about it to [email protected] ? Thanks.

Holistic: Yet another word that makes me reach for my revolver.

 

[fab4fan]

A lab tech with 2y exp. who is now a pre-med.

All righty then, back to discussing this topic with people who have a clue...

 

[zenman]

Holistic: Yet another word that makes me reach for my revolver.

It's so old I didn't think it was being used anymore...especially in a lab, lol!

 

[Lovemylabs]

True, but the decisions that are the most vital to patient care are still made by the physician. Although many nurses have a decent knowledge of medicine, they don't have training in pathophysiology of disease processes, drug interactions, clinical presentations, etc......which is the underlying key to treating patients and their medical conditions.

For your information, I have included the nursing curriculum from a top nursing school, Johns Hopkins School of Nursing, you may have heard of it. It may surprise you to know that some of the topics discussed in "Pathophysiolgy" and "Pharmacology" are disease processes, medical conditions, and drug interactions. I'm not sure exactly what you think nurses do learn about in school, but I can assure you that medications and symptoms of disease are frequently discussed. Before you start forming opinions on nursing, please arm yourself with correct information, at least.

COURSE NUMBER
COURSE NAME
CREDITS

fall

NR 110.301
Nursing Trends and Issues
2

NR 110.302
Foundations of Nursing Practice
3

NR 110.303
Health Assessment
3

NR 110.304
Principles & Applications of Nursing Technology
4

NR 110.305
Issues in Aging
2

14

spring

NR 110.311*
Nursing the Childbearing Family
4

NR 110.312*
Psychiatric Mental Health Nursing
5

NR 110.313
Principles of Pathophysiology
3

NR 110.314
Principles of Pharmacology
3

15

fall

NR 110.401*
Adult Nursing
5

NR 110.402*
Nursing for Child Health
4

NR 110.403
The Research Process in Nursing
3

NR 110.404
Information Technologies in Nursing
2

14

spring

NR 110.405*
Public Health Nursing
5

NR 110.406*
Transitions Practicum
4

NR 110.407
Transitions into Practice
2

NR 110.410
Special Topics in Nursing
2

13

 

[flighterdoc]

LOL, just for grins, I took those two specific 'nursing' courses before I left California to attend medical school.... Not at JHU, but at a fairly respected university.


Both were snoozers...taught by nurses (RN, not PhD or even MsN level), and both had a demonstrable anti-research, anti-science attitude. We'd get various assignments (oddly, in the pharm class, they always involved womans health issues) and have to collectively determine how to council a 'client'. The 'harm' nurse was way more interested in our knowing about natural substances than real drugs, and was actually offended when we'd suggest that maybe, a real drug prescribed by a real physician was a better idea than squirrel juice. She was always happy to tell us that a nurse should countermand a physicians orders, too...who cares what a patients INR was, after all.

Hardly rigorous, barely science. But, any class thats worth 3 credit hours can hardly compare to my medical school - where pharm is 12 credit hours and path (2 semesters) is 22 credit hours. And the NBME shelf exams are 25% of the grade in both courses.

Sorry, no. Nursing education is NOT IN ANY WAY COMPARABLE TO A MEDICAL EDUCATION.

 

[fab4fan]

LOL, just for grins, I took those two specific 'nursing' courses before I left California to attend medical school.... Not at JHU, but at a fairly respected university.


Both were snoozers...taught by nurses (RN, not PhD or even MsN level), and both had a demonstrable anti-research, anti-science attitude. We'd get various assignments (oddly, in the pharm class, they always involved womans health issues) and have to collectively determine how to council a 'client'. The 'harm' nurse was way more interested in our knowing about natural substances than real drugs, and was actually offended when we'd suggest that maybe, a real drug prescribed by a real physician was a better idea than squirrel juice. She was always happy to tell us that a nurse should countermand a physicians orders, too...who cares what a patients INR was, after all.

Hardly rigorous, barely science. But, any class thats worth 3 credit hours can hardly compare to my medical school - where pharm is 12 credit hours and path (2 semesters) is 22 credit hours. And the NBME shelf exams are 25% of the grade in both courses.

Sorry, no. Nursing education is NOT IN ANY WAY COMPARABLE TO A MEDICAL EDUCATION.

I don't recall seeing anyone specifically state that nursing education is comparable to medical school. That doesn't mean that nurses are simply there to be the lackeys of physicians. Someday, you may appreciate this.

Just because you had a bad experience with two nursing courses does not mean that all nursing programs are that way. Besides, from the tone of your post, it sounds like you went into those classes with an agenda. Otherwise, why would you take courses "just for grins"?

 

[mellowmarshall]

A lab tech with 2y exp. who is now a pre-med.

All righty then, back to discussing this topic with people who have a clue...

Typical nurse superiority complex. Thanks for reinforcing all my observations.

 

[Nasrudin]

I. Besides, from the tone of your post, it sounds like you went into those classes with an agenda. Otherwise, why would you take courses "just for grins"?

While I agree there is much in these types of debates that are merely excuses to denegrate others especially nurses. My experience with nurses, prefaced with the fact that I am a science major who has taken the pre-nursing course work and who works as a nurses assistant more or less, is as follows: They truly believe that they have been trained in the sciences. For example, trying to mind my own business, i am frequently asked, "what are you studying?(seeing my thick organic book) or "what classes are you taking?" To which my reply has been "organic chemistry, general chemistry, and physiology...etc." To which they always say--and this has happened to me dozens of times--"oh yeah, I remember when I took that stuff in nursing school....pretty easy huh?...etc"

Now I am not a particularly prideful person, I keep to myself. But when some of the same people who seek to dump their scut on me, try to sort of unconciously, make themselves feel superior over me, or assuage their insecurites at my expense, by comparing passing accomplishments in a nursing curriculum with a 4.0 in rough and tumble weed out science classes I think that pointing out the flaws in this idea to be in order. The funny thing is is that this idea is more prevalent than I thought and not necessarily related to personality issues between me and my co-workers. Nurses actually think they are trained in basic sciences. They are not. They are trained in the basics of medicine. Doctors are not even trained in the sciences like scientists are--they just learn enough to take a good guess at what the scientists are talking about. People who are really trained in the basics of science like me have learned a sense of humility about how little we know about the mysteries of human physiology and other avenues of science. I don't off-the-cuff smugly act I like I know everything in front of someone I imagine my intelectual inferior just because I took some practical, do this so you don't kill your patients, type of science classes, nor would I imagine those types of course to be remotely similar to weed out pre-med course in terms of difficulty.

So I think this type of thread is valid in that sense. Not as a means to denegrate nurses as professionals or people, though.

 

[fab4fan]

Typical nurse superiority complex. Thanks for reinforcing all my observations.

Not superiority, just someone who has been around long enough to know that your credentials to date aren't sufficient to make such sweeping statements.

 

[flighterdoc]

I don't recall seeing anyone specifically state that nursing education is comparable to medical school. That doesn't mean that nurses are simply there to be the lackeys of physicians. Someday, you may appreciate this.

Just because you had a bad experience with two nursing courses does not mean that all nursing programs are that way. Besides, from the tone of your post, it sounds like you went into those classes with an agenda. Otherwise, why would you take courses "just for grins"?

Actually, the person I was replying to implied that nursing eduation was sufficient grounds for a physician to take a nurses opinion seriously. I offered a comparison between nursing school and medical school courses. There is a reason why nursing school can be an associate degree, and medical school is a graduate, terminal degree.

I don't know what all the nursing programs are. Neither, I'll wager, do you. These were two courses offered at a university in California, approved by the California Nursing Board as a nursing program. Is there a range between good and bad nursing programs? Sure.....but in terms of academic rigor, the rift between 'good' in nursing and 'bad' in a medical school is so great that there is no nursing school course that is accepted as a medical school equivalent.

I took the courses for grins, I had some time and it didn't cost me much. I thought I might actually learn something: I did. That the three 'nurse educators' involved in these two courses are bitter women who hate being nurses, are are mostly ignorant of scientific method, resent anyone who knows more than they do, and because of that are both unethical and dishonest educators. The pharm nurse was quite upset when I discovered that she couldn't really do basic math for dosasge calculations (I had to take that to the program director), she was using cheat sheets but someone had changed the numbers - and she didn't recognize that. Basic math, too.

I'm glad that these three nurses were not involved in patient care, they'd be dangerous - risking a physicians license with their incompetence.

OBTW, 4.0 in both courses, while I was studying for the MCAT.

As far as an agenda, what is yours, other than sticking up for nurses and attempting to explain why nurses are qualified to do more than ... nursing?

 

[flighterdoc]

Not superiority, just someone who has been around long enough to know that your credentials to date aren't sufficient to make such sweeping statements.

Right.... hubris.

 

[zenman]

Now I am not a particularly prideful person, I keep to myself. But when some of the same people who seek to dump their scut on me, try to sort of unconciously, make themselves feel superior over me, or assuage their insecurites at my expense, by comparing passing accomplishments in a nursing curriculum with a 4.0 in rough and tumble weed out science classes I think that pointing out the flaws in this idea to be in order. The funny thing is is that this idea is more prevalent than I thought and not necessarily related to personality issues between me and my co-workers. Nurses actually think they are trained in basic sciences. They are not. They are trained in the basics of medicine. Doctors are not even trained in the sciences like scientists are--they just learn enough to take a good guess at what the scientists are talking about. People who are really trained in the basics of science like me have learned a sense of humility about how little we know about the mysteries of human physiology and other avenues of science. I don't off-the-cuff smugly act I like I know everything in front of someone I imagine my intelectual inferior just because I took some practical, do this so you don't kill your patients, type of science classes, nor would I imagine those types of course to be remotely similar to weed out pre-med course in terms of difficulty.

So I think this type of thread is valid in that sense. Not as a means to denegrate nurses as professionals or people, though.

I took A & P in nursing school and didn't think it was too difficult. I didn't like chem, biology and zoology so suffered through them. A few years ago I took 9 hours of A & P by three profs at UT Austin and it almost killed me. I've also had renal and pulmonary physiology courses. I know I know little, plus I probably have forgotten half of it. I don't even want to try to know as much as physicians...or those Ph.D. gods. I met a guy once with two Ph.D.s; he was such a frickin genius he couldn't remember to comb his hair or change his blue jeans and t-shirt.

 

[fab4fan]

Actually, the person I was replying to implied that nursing eduation was sufficient grounds for a physician to take a nurses opinion seriously. I offered a comparison between nursing school and medical school courses. There is a reason why nursing school can be an associate degree, and medical school is a graduate, terminal degree.

I don't know what all the nursing programs are. Neither, I'll wager, do you. These were two courses offered at a university in California, approved by the California Nursing Board as a nursing program. Is there a range between good and bad nursing programs? Sure.....but in terms of academic rigor, the rift between 'good' in nursing and 'bad' in a medical school is so great that there is no nursing school course that is accepted as a medical school equivalent.

I took the courses for grins, I had some time and it didn't cost me much. I thought I might actually learn something: I did. That the three 'nurse educators' involved in these two courses are bitter women who hate being nurses, are are mostly ignorant of scientific method, resent anyone who knows more than they do, and because of that are both unethical and dishonest educators. The pharm nurse was quite upset when I discovered that she couldn't really do basic math for dosasge calculations (I had to take that to the program director), she was using cheat sheets but someone had changed the numbers - and she didn't recognize that. Basic math, too.

I'm glad that these three nurses were not involved in patient care, they'd be dangerous - risking a physicians license with their incompetence.

OBTW, 4.0 in both courses, while I was studying for the MCAT.

As far as an agenda, what is yours, other than sticking up for nurses and attempting to explain why nurses are qualified to do more than ... nursing?

flighterdoc (?), you have made many antagonistic comments directed toward nurses in the past. It's no surprise to me that you were dissatisfied with the nursing courses and found much to criticise. I would have been shocked if you had actually said something positive.

I am not an advocate of nurses doing anything more than nursing. I don't believe nursing education is on a par with medical school. I defy you to find a single post I have ever made where I said such a thing. I am an advocate for nurses being treated with respect for the contributions they make. You've been a med student for how long now? Surely you must recognize that if it were not for nurses, your job would be much more difficult, if not outright impossible.

Yes, my agenda is sticking up for my fellow nurses. That's not a crime. Somebody has to defend us.

 

[fab4fan]

One other thing: disregard the observations of an experienced nurse at your own peril. You may have a more extensive education, but you're not perfect. A good doctor (I work with a few) knows that input from other experienced members of the health care team is valuable.