Why are some of you so offended at the talk of money

[ZoakRoak]

So, on one hand you have a student who got into dental school purely for money. However, when that student graduated they were of the best dentists in the area.

Another student barely scratched by or did alright, makes some mistakes and nearly isn't as great as the other mentioned. Some of the patients of this individual now need to go to other dentists to get procedures re-done but money was the last thing on that dentist's mind for school.

I guess then most of you noble and gallant warriors of justice would choose the second person? Are you kidding me? When anything is physically being performed on you, some of which may permanently effect you physically or the amount you pay over the long run occurs, you want the best. So what if the first guy is motivated by money? The guy does an amazing job and it shows. I guess then that we should praise the noble second warrior who even if they do a worse job, it's the thought that they were motivated by "noble" reasons that count.

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[psiyung]

So, on one hand you have a student who got into dental school purely for money. However, when that student graduated they were of the best dentists in the area.

Another student barely scratched by or did alright, makes some mistakes and nearly isn't as great as the other mentioned. Some of the patients of this individual now need to go to other dentists to get procedures re-done but money was the last thing on that dentist's mind for school.

I guess then most of you noble and gallant warriors of justice would choose the second person? Are you kidding me? When anything is physically being performed on you, some of which may permanently effect you physically or the amount you pay over the long run occurs, you want the best. So what if the first guy is motivated by money? The guy does an amazing job and it shows. I guess then that we should praise the noble second warrior who even if they do a worse job, it's the thought that they were motivated by "noble" reasons that count.

 

[thewobblytooth]

It's all about motivation apparently

 

[Shunwei]

In my mind there is absolutely nothing wrong (perfectly sensible actually) to want to do dentistry for a stable lifestyle. It is a good field to still get into in the right locations. Being a dentist is a marketable and sought-after skill that can allow you to go to many places and make a good living.

In my experience, the people who don't think that money should be a factor belong to 3 categories: 1) people who have enough of it and don't need it, but these are rare and in-between; personally if I had enough money I'd retire from dentistry and avoid working so hard, 2) people more-or-less detached from reality, like the academia; your dental school professors and instructors would fall in this category, and 3) people who are young and full of naïveté and don't know how the real world works (like many dental school students and per-dents).

In reality, there is nothing wrong with talking about money and profits, because dentistry is a business and we work to live. However, the important thing is to always have your patients best interests in mind and treat them as if you want them to be treated. Be an ethical professional, do your best for them (although I wouldn't be too nice and bend over backwards for them), and treat them like family. If you do so and practice in the right location, the money will follow. The dentists that bring the field the bad name tends to be those who value money so much that they'd compromise their integrity or never had it to begin with, and you can usually spot these folks as dental students by the way they act and their ethical standards. For example, I knew someone in dental school who was a year behind me. One time she pulled me aside and showed me her grade sheet for a waxing project marked in pencil, and she got a 4/5. I told her it was a good job but she surprised me by asking me if it was OK to erase the 4 the instructor noted and circle the 5 instead. What kind of professional do you think this person would be when she gets into her practice?

 

[UCSFx2017]

To what severity is money a motivation? If the want of money crosses the boundary of morals then you have a problem. In dentistry, it's too easy to set up a patient with an unnecessarily expensive treatment plan when all they really need is something much cheaper. This is not to say that dentists who are motivated by money to a healthy amount are not honest dentists. I like to think that most dentists are fair, empathetic, and honest people.

People who are entirely motivated by money would not be the ones you would find volunteering for free at a clinic and accepting medicaid or medicare patients. If you are motivated largely by money, chances are your world-view is also very self-centered. Why do people want money? To accumulate material things that give fleeting happiness once they secure basic necessities. This is extrinsic motivation and it's the weaker of the two forms of motivation. The second form is intrinsic motivation and it relies on self-actualization, human connection, and the external validation from others that you are a "good" person. I'd prefer to accept pre-dental students who are motivated intrinsically rather than extrinsically.

 

[Medstart108]

So, on one hand you have a student who got into dental school purely for money. However, when that student graduated they were of the best dentists in the area.

Another student barely scratched by or did alright, makes some mistakes and nearly isn't as great as the other mentioned. Some of the patients of this individual now need to go to other dentists to get procedures re-done but money was the last thing on that dentist's mind for school.

I guess then most of you noble and gallant warriors of justice would choose the second person? Are you kidding me? When anything is physically being performed on you, some of which may permanently effect you physically or the amount you pay over the long run occurs, you want the best. So what if the first guy is motivated by money? The guy does an amazing job and it shows. I guess then that we should praise the noble second warrior who even if they do a worse job, it's the thought that they were motivated by "noble" reasons that count.

I would choose the 1st dentist. Its a huge taboo that you aren't at all motivated by money. Lets be real, if physician/dentist salaries were cut to around 100k interest in these fields would also drop and it wouldn't be for the better. Or else, we would have already done so. We want the best and the brightest for careers that save lives, so we pay them more to attract talent.

The doctors/dentists that are not at all motivated by money are the vocal minority whereas the doctors/dentists that are motivated partly by money are the silent majority.

 

[doc toothache]

The "greed"/motivation for money is not directly proportional with the "quality" of the clinician.

 

[djeffreyt]

So, on one hand you have a student who got into dental school purely for money. However, when that student graduated they were of the best dentists in the area.

Another student barely scratched by or did alright, makes some mistakes and nearly isn't as great as the other mentioned. Some of the patients of this individual now need to go to other dentists to get procedures re-done but money was the last thing on that dentist's mind for school.

I guess then most of you noble and gallant warriors of justice would choose the second person? Are you kidding me? When anything is physically being performed on you, some of which may permanently effect you physically or the amount you pay over the long run occurs, you want the best. So what if the first guy is motivated by money? The guy does an amazing job and it shows. I guess then that we should praise the noble second warrior who even if they do a worse job, it's the thought that they were motivated by "noble" reasons that count.

I prefer the better dentist. But then, I don't really see your point all that much. I'm a dentist and I talk about money all the time with all my dentist friends. It is a motivation for me, but not my only motivation, otherwise that patient I just saw would have a treatment plan for 8 crowns instead of the 1 crown and 2 fillings he now has.

But again, don't see your point. Every dentist has different motivations and different skill levels, and even different skill levels within the various areas of our field. Some dentists can't diagnose worth a damn but can root canal like a master...there's no simple way to break people down. I'd prefer a dentist who was both exceptionally skilled and not a douche who only did dentistry so that he could buy a new sports car every year.

 

[ZoakRoak]

I prefer the better dentist. But then, I don't really see your point all that much. I'm a dentist and I talk about money all the time with all my dentist friends. It is a motivation for me, but not my only motivation, otherwise that patient I just saw would have a treatment plan for 8 crowns instead of the 1 crown and 2 fillings he now has.

But again, don't see your point. Every dentist has different motivations and different skill levels, and even different skill levels within the various areas of our field. Some dentists can't diagnose worth a damn but can root canal like a master...there's no simple way to break people down. I'd prefer a dentist who was both exceptionally skilled and not a douche who only did dentistry so that he could buy a new sports car every year.

What you described pertaining to 8 crowns is indeed a douche but is not the type of person I was referring to. All my point was that there are people on here where ANY talk of money brings anger out of them and that it seems these people would choose a worse dentist in every specialty versus one of the complete opposite if the only difference was one simply liked the profession a little more.

 

[djeffreyt]

What you described pertaining to 8 crowns is indeed a douche but is not the type of person I was referring to. All my point was that there are people on here where ANY talk of money brings anger out of them and that it seems these people would choose a worse dentist in every specialty versus one of the complete opposite if the only difference was one simply liked the profession a little more.

Oh...

oddly enough, I don't know any dentists who don't talk about money...but the subject of exactly how much we make isn't brought up a lot. We talk money all the time though...just not specifically I make XXX,XXX a year.

 

[b0110]

But its not mutually exclusive. Your original post makes no sense. Would you rather go to a good dentist that has money as his primary motivation or a bad dentist who doesn't care about money? Well, of course you would choose the first. But that doesn't mean you can't have a bad dentist that wants money and a good dentist that doesn't care about money.

 

[valkairon]

"The patient's needs must come before the needs of the practitioner... is a noble sentiment; it's also untrue." - Dr. Charles Bertolami, dean of the U.S's largest dental school.

 

[yappy]

What?!

"The patient's needs must come before the needs of the practitioner... is a noble sentiment; it's also untrue." - Dr. Charles Bertolami, dean of the U.S's largest dental school.

 

[UCSFx2017]

"The patient's needs must come before the needs of the practitioner... is a noble sentiment; it's also untrue." - Dr. Charles Bertolami, dean of the U.S's largest dental school.

 

[thewobblytooth]

Let's be honest with ourselves here. We go into dentistry for so many reasons. Money may be one motivating factor, but keep in mind when people say "money" it's more than that. Job stability, being your own boss, helping patients the way you see fit, having your own schedule, true freedom to do whatever you want, literally unlimited vacation time, and the list goes on and on. Don't be so "righteous" and say you want to help people and all of that and that's the sole reason why you went into dentistry. Lifestyle and personal freedom were big reasons why I initially went into dentistry.

 

[Ferneezy]

"The patient's needs must come before the needs of the practitioner... is a noble sentiment; it's also untrue." - Dr. Charles Bertolami, dean of the U.S's largest dental school.

will need a verifiable source on this please. context counts for a lot.

 

[GTFOOMICT]

Oh...

oddly enough, I don't know any dentists who don't talk about money...but the subject of exactly how much we make isn't brought up a lot. We talk money all the time though...just not specifically I make XXX,XXX a year.

I make $51,000 a year

 

[goffdent]

No dental student or dentist should be ashamed to say that one reason they chose dentistry is because of the earning potential that comes along with it. Why do people take additional college courses, master's programs, tech school programs?? to get a better job or better position to hopefully make more money to better the life of themselves or their family. Income is a large reason why people choose careers, it's nothing to be ashamed of.

 

[beannaithe]

No dental student or dentist should be ashamed to say that one reason they chose dentistry is because of the earning potential that comes along with it. Why do people take additional college courses, master's programs, tech school programs?? to get a better job or better position to hopefully make more money to better the life of themselves or their family. Income is a large reason why people choose careers, it's nothing to be ashamed of.

There is nothing wrong with expecting to be well-paid for the job that we do. However, it should be that the compensation follows the more noble calling of helping people or actually enjoying the profession.

If money is your primary motivator, you will become disillusioned with noncompliant patients, staff stress, strange personalities, and hearing "no offense, but I hate the dentist." I've never seen anyone who's gone into it for the money and ended up loving the profession. Usually, it's people who enjoy the profession get to enjoy the money that comes with it.

If you're only motivating factor is money, I'd stay away. If you enjoy working with your hands and dealing with people and would like to be well-compensated, I would certainly go for it.

Once you've been working for a while, you'll learn no amount of money truly compensates us for the job that we do.

 

[goffdent]

There is nothing wrong with expecting to be well-paid for the job that we do. However, it should be that the compensation follows the more noble calling of helping people or actually enjoying the profession.

If money is your primary motivator, you will become disillusioned with noncompliant patients, staff stress, strange personalities, and hearing "no offense, but I hate the dentist." I've never seen anyone who's gone into it for the money and ended up loving the profession. Usually, it's people who enjoy the profession get to enjoy the money that comes with it.

If you're only motivating factor is money, I'd stay away. If you enjoy working with your hands and dealing with people and would like to be well-compensated, I would certainly go for it.

Once you've been working for a while, you'll learn no amount of money truly compensates us for the job that we do.

I completely agree..... I'm just saying people shouldn't be ashamed to say it's one reason why they chose a career.

 

[MatthewLeeDDS]

I completely agree..... I'm just saying people shouldn't be ashamed to say it's one reason why they chose a career.

I understand this totally. There are a lot of headaches that come with dentistry, but in general, if it's something you like and can learn you'll be well compensated for it. Knowing this in advance isn't wrong, but I disagree with someone chasing a job simply because if the money it brings. If dentists were paid $90,000 on average would I choose something else? Maybe. $60,000? Yes. Especially with the debt load so many take on, anything less than an outstanding salary would cripple the profession because no one would take on that debt load.

 

[CharlieMurphy32]

In my mind there is absolutely nothing wrong (perfectly sensible actually) to want to do dentistry for a stable lifestyle. It is a good field to still get into in the right locations. Being a dentist is a marketable and sought-after skill that can allow you to go to many places and make a good living.

In my experience, the people who don't think that money should be a factor belong to 3 categories: 1) people who have enough of it and don't need it, but these are rare and in-between; personally if I had enough money I'd retire from dentistry and avoid working so hard, 2) people more-or-less detached from reality, like the academia; your dental school professors and instructors would fall in this category, and 3) people who are young and full of naïveté and don't know how the real world works (like many dental school students and per-dents).

In reality, there is nothing wrong with talking about money and profits, because dentistry is a business and we work to live. However, the important thing is to always have your patients best interests in mind and treat them as if you want them to be treated. Be an ethical professional, do your best for them (although I wouldn't be too nice and bend over backwards for them), and treat them like family. If you do so and practice in the right location, the money will follow. The dentists that bring the field the bad name tends to be those who value money so much that they'd compromise their integrity or never had it to begin with, and you can usually spot these folks as dental students by the way they act and their ethical standards. For example, I knew someone in dental school who was a year behind me. One time she pulled me aside and showed me her grade sheet for a waxing project marked in pencil, and she got a 4/5. I told her it was a good job but she surprised me by asking me if it was OK to erase the 4 the instructor noted and circle the 5 instead. What kind of professional do you think this person would be when she gets into her practice?

She sounds like 80% of the people I graduated with. Zero integrity....I woudn't even take the time to have a beer with them. Myself and the other 20% ended up getting shafted, but did not cheat or cut corners. You could prob. say the same of this country in general. It's pretty damn sad.

 

[Bobby Fischer]

She sounds like 80% of the people I graduated with. Zero integrity....I woudn't even take the time to have a beer with them. Myself and the other 20% ended up getting shafted, but did not cheat or cut corners. You could prob. say the same of this country in general. It's pretty damn sad.

agreed. unfortunately. Hope I don't say the same when I am ready to exit d school (starting this fall). I was really, really hoping there really would be more integrity in dentistry than the profession I am leaving behind.

Is it all just rotted out now? How to find the dentists of integrity/ honor/ nobility to practice with when I graduate? any tell tale signs or rules of thumb to identify the honorable ones form the shape shifters?

 

[papilindo]

Im 18 and so confuse if i should go to college or not i was seeing some youtube vids that never go to college for useless degrees but only for doctors or engineers what you guys think? Is it REALLY about LOVE that you pick a profession?? Or the life is going to bring you. Most importantly ENOUGH JOBS btw ive been thinking dentistry and mostly because i get my own business and the high salary.

 

[valkairon]

The dentist, it has been said, does not work in order to get paid. He is paid so that he may work.

 

[digitalfortress]

That's what I'm really worried about. Money should not be the sole goal for health field, but it's a huge factor especially nowadays with skyrocketing tuition cost. I'm not overly worried about it since I still have a year to do my DAT and push the application, but the bleak economic future worries me. I don't want >250k with no lucrative job on the line. I can't even see a big picture as to what are the steps are apart from working hard to get as high GPA as possible and do some shadowing in the summer. I won't have enough capital to start my own business, so it would be stupid to expect >200k salary but I don't want to end up like a lot of pharmacists grads that I know. It's sad.. everything we were told about how to be successful is drastically changing with the recession with little hope for economic recovery by the time I graduate +10 -15 years.

I wish there was a magic book where you can see what the big picture is and follow through like dummy's guide books. When I try to ask something, it comes out being stupid.