Why are there not more state ran Osteopathic Medical Schools?

medicine1

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I am just wondering why there are not more State run/State funded Osteopathic Medical Schools? How can we change this? Or should there be any change for this? Also is competition good between DO and MD schools within the same city limits, as we see with the new allopathic school being created in Phoenix, near AZCOM, in Glendale?
 

rpkall

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That's a really good question.

The only answer I can think of is research, possibly. It brings in big bucks for allo schools (especially the state ones, at least in NY and most of the northeast, anyways). Osteo's committment to research is a little less known and defined, and maybe programs so highly focused on clinical medicine have a tough time getting funding from the state...
 
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I spoke to one of the Biochem Ph.D.s at my undergrad University, and he told me that University research faculty/M.S./Ph.Ds are loosing their funding, and are now looking for jobs in the private sector. I have heard that the government is trying to push research into the private sector area more and more. The same Biochem Ph.D. told me that he was looking into AZCOM/WSU because they have lots of research opportunities, and that they are a for-profit organization with lots of money and grants coming in.
 

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For a school to become a "state" medical school, they invariably have to reach an agreement with the state MD school(s) in that state. To do this, they often have to adopt a mandate of sorts, spelled out in their charter, to make their primary goal to train physicians to practice in the underserved areas and underrepresented specialties. If the University of Oklahoma had its way, for example, OSU-COM would only be able to train internists/FP's to work in the ultra-rural areas. That doesn't mean that the two schools dont work together and several DO's are actually in OU's competitive residencies, like Rads and Anesthesia. Im just saying that the only way to become a state DO school is to jump through these hurdles.
 
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Idiopathic said:
For a school to become a "state" medical school, they invariably have to reach an agreement with the state MD school(s) in that state. To do this, they often have to adopt a mandate of sorts, spelled out in their charter, to make their primary goal to train physicians to practice in the underserved areas and underrepresented specialties. If the University of Oklahoma had its way, for example, OSU-COM would only be able to train internists/FP's to work in the ultra-rural areas. That doesn't mean that the two schools dont work together and several DO's are actually in OU's competitive residencies, like Rads and Anesthesia. Im just saying that the only way to become a state DO school is to jump through these hurdles.

Interesting. Why does a DO school have to come up with an agreement with the MD school? Don't the majority of DO schools produce physicians that work in underserved areas, and underrepresented specialties?
 

ny skindoc

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If there is a physician shortage, especially primary care in a particular state and DOs are politically influential there then there is the possibility of obtaining state funding to support an osteopathic med school. Since they will be competing with already existing local allopathic schools for tax dollars(a scarce resource), there will have to be strong justification for the school and most likely everyone will have to agree on such a plan.There are a limited number of places where such an arrangement can be reached.It is far more common (and much easier)for private schools with financial motivation to establish new schools funded by student tuition.
 

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Most states that have a state MD school can barely afford to support that school along with all the other state schools it has. So adding a DO schools without the help of rich alumni and other high value donations is very hard. I believe both OSU and TCOM were both private schools before the state agreed to take them on. It is easier to take on an already established school than to start a new one. Florida should think about that before starting their chiropractic school. They barely got their allopathic school off the ground. I think the whole issue is more about money and some politics and less about whether it is a DO or MD school unless of course it is in Cali.
 
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raptor5 said:
Most states that have a state MD school can barely afford to support that school along with all the other state schools it has. So adding a DO schools without the help of rich alumni and other high value donations is very hard. I believe both OSU and TCOM were both private schools before the state agreed to take them on. It is easier to take on an already established school than to start a new one. Florida should think about that before starting their chiropractic school. They barely got their allopathic school off the ground. I think the whole issue is more about money and some politics and less about whether it is a DO or MD school unless of course it is in Cali.
Why Cali? When it comes to the issue of DO vs MD?
I hope OSU and TCOM are doing well. I know a while back one of TCOMs hospitals shut down. Was not this hospital state ran? I think competition is good (between colleges/universities), and perhaps it will allow us to become better physicians(???), but at the same time I think doctors should help each other out (both MD and DO). Should there only be one major state ran medical school connected to a major teaching hospital? I know California has a lot of Public Medical schools. And I see that they are really starting to hurt for money.
 

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The first 3 state-DO schools were MSU-COM (1970), TCOM (1971), and OSU-COM (1972).

Each of these schools have been found in the US News & World report's national medical school rankings for the past several years. Categories they are found in include Primary Care, Family Medicine, Rural Medicine, and others.

This does show us that state-support can really help a DO school be successful.
 

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toofache32 said:
"state ran"?
Thanks. You saved me from having to say it first.

One of the most horrifying discoveries I have made in switching from liberal arts to medicine is that so many people in this profession are such poor writers, spellers and communicators.

This goes for everyone, not just the OP: get a dictionary (with all words, not just medical terms) and USE it. You'll look a lot smarter.
 

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sophiejane said:
Thanks. You saved me from having to say it first.

One of the most horrifying discoveries I have made in switching from liberal arts to medicine is that so many people in this profession are such poor writers, spellers and communicators.

This goes for everyone, not just the OP: get a dictionary (with all words, not just medical terms) and USE it. You'll look a lot smarter.
Why are you so uptight? Do you have some kind of a superiority, or inferiority, complex? If you had cared to read many of the OP's current and prior posts, you would see that he is a very informed, intelligent individual, and the communication he has demonstrated several times has all been evident of correct structure, grammar, and other mechanics of the English language.

Let me ask you this - what does your post signify within this thread? It obviously serves no purpose other than to detract from the topic at hand. As I have come to understand it, and I will make a similar generalization as you have just done, it is people like you that scorn anyone that clearly demonstrates a valid curiosity of not only the healthcare system, but of the world, have they not the aptitude to communicate their questions in a perfect order.

I'm sorry to say, you're also wrong on quite a few other points. If the transition from a liberal arts education to a scientific one has enlightened you that the real problem in this profession is poor communication, you are either in some state of denial or ignorance. Remember something, physicians communicate on a daily basis with not only their patients, but also their peers; a physician cannot make an adequate diagnosis without extracting that information from a patient - how do you propose they do this without good communication? What do you also say in response to the many physicians who console families in times of crises, or those that present speeches on the advances of medical technology and other areas of the field?

Not everyone in this profession does not know how to write, spell, or communicate. Open your eyes a little wider next time you post something as ridiculous as this.
 

toofache32

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LVDoc said:
Why are you so uptight? Do you have some kind of a superiority, or inferiority, complex? If you had cared to read many of the OP's current and prior posts, you would see that he is a very informed, intelligent individual, and the communication he has demonstrated several times has all been evident of correct structure, grammar, and other mechanics of the English language.

Let me ask you this - what does your post signify within this thread? It obviously serves no purpose other than to detract from the topic at hand. As I have come to understand it, and I will make a similar generalization as you have just done, it is people like you that scorn anyone that clearly demonstrates a valid curiosity of not only the healthcare system, but of the world, have they not the aptitude to communicate their questions in a perfect order.

I'm sorry to say, you're also wrong on quite a few other points. If the transition from a liberal arts education to a scientific one has enlightened you that the real problem in this profession is poor communication, you are either in some state of denial or ignorance. Remember something, physicians communicate on a daily basis with not only their patients, but also their peers; a physician cannot make an adequate diagnosis without extracting that information from a patient - how do you propose they do this without good communication? What do you also say in response to the many physicians who console families in times of crises, or those that present speeches on the advances of medical technology and other areas of the field?

Not everyone in this profession does not know how to write, spell, or communicate. Open your eyes a little wider next time you post something as ridiculous as this.
What on earth are you blathering about?

The fact remains...view the title of the thread.
LVDoc said:
Not everyone in this profession does not know how to write, spell, or communicate.
Huh? I rest my case.
 

sophiejane

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No need to make a mountain out of a molehill, LVDoc.

Just learn to spell and write, that's all I'm asking of ***some*** (I never once said "all") of my esteemed peers. If you personally already know how to do that, there's no need to get your panties in a wad now, is there?

Who's uptight, again?

I also never said anything about "the real problem in the profession." Those were your words.

Enough with semantics--didn't mean to hijack the thread. You can all get back to the task at hand, which was discussing state-run DO schools, I believe, and I will slink away back to my dictionary. While you're at it, however, try to avoid the double-negatives. ;)
 

LVDoc

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All I meant to say was that there are better ways of conveying what you would like to say rather than blatantly pointing out a spelling error and moving along; it doesn't necessarily hijack the thread, but it's not very useful either. The least someone could have done was to offer some constructive viewpoints about the OP's question, and thereafter, mention in the closing of the post that the correct form was "run" rather than "ran." However, toofache32's response, followed by yours, seemed fairly rude, as if you could mock a person without actually knowing anything about them, and for something so trivial as this.

When I was writing my own response, I had a feeling you would point out the double negative :) It's okay though. I left it in for effect, you could say. Anyway, I'm going to drop this now because it's pretty irrelevant.

The only other thing I have to add for toofache32 is that, in simple mathematical terms, (-)(-) = (+). I don't understand why you had such a hard time understanding that, nor as to how your case is rested, but then again, neither do I care anymore.
 
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medicine1

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I do apologize for my grammar. I was more focused on the topic at hand, and not on my grammar. I would like to delve deeper into the idea of public medical schools, and why there are not more public/state run Osteopathic Medical schools. Thanks.

Apropos, I found another interesting article:
http://www.pub.umich.edu/daily/1998/jul/07-27-98/edit/edit1.html
 

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I'm not sure state legislatures are ready to jump on the DO bandwagon just yet, especially when the big research dollars and recognition still go to MD schools, largely. There's not a lot of glory (I think in their eyes anyway) in dumping money into making a bunch of FP docs. (Now, please don't anyone go off on how you personally know several DO ophthalmologists and world-famous DO neurosurgeons, or that you plan on becoming one. Of course you can, that's not the point. The fact remains that most of us choose primary care).

What I think will start to change this attitude in state government is when our leaders (and more importantly, the voters) start to appreciate the fact that the primary care talent well is running dry before our very eyes.
 

DrDad

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sophiejane said:
I'm not sure state legislatures are ready to jump on the DO bandwagon just yet, especially when the big research dollars and recognition still go to MD schools, largely. There's not a lot of glory (I think in their eyes anyway) in dumping money into making a bunch of FP docs. (Now, please don't anyone go off on how you personally know several DO ophthalmologists and world-famous DO neurosurgeons, or that you plan on becoming one. Of course you can, that's not the point. The fact remains that most of us choose primary care).

What I think will start to change this attitude in state government is when our leaders (and more importantly, the voters) start to appreciate the fact that the primary care talent well is running dry before our very eyes.

Unfortunately you may be right... I hate it that it is true, but in time, the wisdom of our way will see the real light of day(not as if it is not seeing quite a bit right now)

States would be wise to support DO schools as Doctors of Primary Care still move to small towns and increase the viability of the community. Likely by stats only will DO's be just the doctors to do this.... People may be able to work from home, but they will never be able to receive actual manual medical care over a phone line....

DrDad
 

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DrDad said:
People may be able to work from home, but they will never be able to receive actual manual medical care over a phone line....

....actually, your school has one of the most cutting-edge telemedicine programs around, designed for situations where a Dr. can't get to a rural site. The patient comes to the clinic and hooks into a real-time telemedicine conference with a doc, who can do and see quite a bit from a distance (including listen to their heart and lungs and look in the eyes/ears/nose/throat with the help of the person doing the maneuvering of instruments on the other end). All you need is a nurse, a doublewide trailer, and a few techies out there in the sticks and you are good to go.

I'm being cheeky, obviously. Telemedicine's limitations are apparent (can't do palpation, abdominal exam, etc.), though I do think it has a real place in rural care, both now and in the future.

I'd be interested to know what kind of state funding OSU-COM gets for it's rural medicine program. Whatever it is, it's probably not enough...
 

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sophiejane said:
....actually, your school has one of the most cutting-edge telemedicine programs around, designed for situations where a Dr. can't get to a rural site. The patient comes to the clinic and hooks into a real-time telemedicine conference with a doc, who can do and see quite a bit from a distance (including listen to their heart and lungs and look in the eyes/ears/nose/throat with the help of the person doing the maneuvering of instruments on the other end). All you need is a nurse, a doublewide trailer, and a few techies out there in the sticks and you are good to go.

I'm being cheeky, obviously. Telemedicine's limitations are apparent (can't do palpation, abdominal exam, etc.), though I do think it has a real place in rural care, both now and in the future.

I'd be interested to know what kind of state funding OSU-COM gets for it's rural medicine program. Whatever it is, it's probably not enough...
Fortunately, we just had a statewide increase in tobacco tax, from the last election. The money will directly go to that purpose.
 

sophiejane

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What? Is my home state getting more progressive?! No way!

That's a wonderful and kind of sad irony about the tobacco tax. Oh well, let it fuel its own machine and start churning out the COPDers of the future, I say. Bring 'em on.
 

medic170

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Another reason:

AMA=a large and powerful organization with well funded lobbying efforts in state legislatures

AOA= a small organization with much less money, fewer donors, and liitle lobbying efforts, mostly due to the fact that they are very UNrepresentative of the majority of DO's.
 

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Why Cali? When it comes to the issue of DO vs MD?
That was just a bash at the whole ordeal in 1962 when more than 2000 DOs sold their degree to the CA AMA for $65 so they could have an MD and retain practice rights in CA. This also applied to any DO nationwide that wanted an MD. The Los Angeles DO school became the UC Irvine med school. Many DOs later went to jail for practicing w/o a lisence.
 

medic170

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raptor5 said:
This also applied to any DO nationwide that wanted an MD.

Actually, I am pretty sure it only applied to California licensure, not nationwide, unless you mean someone from another state could get a Cali MD? Also, as far as being in trouble for practicing without a license, do you mean people who refused to trade their DO degree for an MD in Cali and continued to practice as a DO?
 

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medic170 said:
Actually, I am pretty sure it only applied to California licensure, not nationwide, unless you mean someone from another state could get a Cali MD? Also, as far as being in trouble for practicing without a license, do you mean people who refused to trade their DO degree for an MD in Cali and continued to practice as a DO?
No, you were required to have an MD degree to practice in California at that time. This is why they all paid the fee to get it. The irony of it all is that because they allowed the DO's to just pay to get the degree, it was an admission that both degrees were equivalent. This later led to DO's being accepted by all states for medical licenses.
 

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medicine1 said:
Interesting. Why does a DO school have to come up with an agreement with the MD school? Don't the majority of DO schools produce physicians that work in underserved areas, and underrepresented specialties?
HAHAHHA...uhhhhhhh, NO! I'm an allopath but most physicians want to make cash when they graduate residency training...and that won't be found in underserved areas and underrepresented specialties. This, by the way, is why many allopaths and allopathic programs don't take DOs seriously, because they want to do MD work and train at MD schools. Wouldn't it be more appropiate if what you assert would play out?
 
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I hope more DO students go for the HPSP and NHSC scholarships, so that debt won't be the leading factor in choosing a specialty.
http://nhsc.bhpr.hrsa.gov/applications/
http://ci.afit.edu/cimj/apply_scholarship.asp
By the way IN2Bait you are only making normative statements. Please have an actual argument, with factual numbers and evidence at hand.
DOs make up more than 15% of rural doctors, while DOs are only 5.5% of the total physician population. You do the math.
http://www.nrharural.org/dc/issuepapers/ipaper13.population.
 

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medicine1 said:
I hope more DO students go for the HPSP and NHSC scholarships, so that debt won't be the leading factor in choosing a specialty.
http://nhsc.bhpr.hrsa.gov/applications/
http://ci.afit.edu/cimj/apply_scholarship.asp
By the way IN2Bait you are only making normative statements. Please have an actual argument, with factual numbers and evidence at hand.
DOs make up more than 15% of rural doctors, while DOs are only 5.5% of the total physician population. You do the math.
http://www.nrharural.org/dc/issuepapers/ipaper13.population.
I would argue for you to follow your own advice, osteopath. Do the math...military scholarships at current interest rates don't pay after 10 years in practice, especially in non-primary care fields, since renumeration in the military is substantially lower than private practice, even in primary-care fields. So...at $40,000/yr = $160,000 debt at, say, 1.5%. Compound that monthly, then add. If you make anywhere near 200K you'll be WAY ahead compared to otherwise taking a military scholarship (which pay $80-120/yr). This may be too sophisticated math for your feeblemind, and this deficiency probably reflected in the physical sciences section of your MCAT and college grades.
Furthermore, why should osteopathy students who have no interest in military scholarships in the first instance be forced to consider them based on the choice they make to begin with (like going to a DO school)?
After you do this, learn what normative actually
means...lol. (Sorry, I had to mention this obvious usage error, which any high school graduate should know.)
You see, it's DOs like you that give reasonably intelligent DOs a bad name. Talking to some of you DOs is like talking to a child--you just don't get it!
 

medic170

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IN2bait said:
I would argue for you to follow your own advice, osteopath. Do the math...military scholarships at current interest rates don't pay after 10 years in practice, especially in non-primary care fields, since renumeration in the military is substantially lower than private practice, even in primary-care fields. So...at $40,000/yr = $160,000 debt at, say, 1.5%. Compound that monthly, then add. If you make anywhere near 200K you'll be WAY ahead compared to otherwise taking a military scholarship (which pay $80-120/yr). This may be too sophisticated math for your feeblemind, and this deficiency probably reflected in the physical sciences section of your MCAT and college grades.
Furthermore, why should osteopathy students who have no interest in military scholarships in the first instance be forced to consider them based on the choice they make to begin with (like going to a DO school)?
After you do this, learn what normative actually
means...lol. (Sorry, I had to mention this obvious usage error, which any high school graduate should know.)
You see, it's DOs like you that give reasonably intelligent DOs a bad name. Talking to some of you DOs is like talking to a child--you just don't get it!
I am sorry, but I have to say, the condescending way you act towards these DO,s and DO,s to be makes you look very immature and ignorant, despite whether you are right in your argument. Maybe talking to some DO's is like talking to a child, in your experience, is because they are just trying to speak to you on your level.
 

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Please stop engaging the troll.

In the future, when you see a post like that, ignore it. That is the best way to make a point and stop a futile and irrelevant sandbox-style kindergarten-level argument in its tracks. Engaging someone like that--no matter what you are discussing--is not going to change their mind and it will only make you sink to their level.
 

medic170

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sophiejane said:
Please stop engaging the troll.

In the future, when you see a post like that, ignore it. That is the best way to make a point and stop a futile and irrelevant sandbox-style kindergarten-level argument in its tracks. Engaging someone like that--no matter what you are discussing--is not going to change their mind and it will only make you sink to their level.
:idea: :clap: :thumbup: