Why are there so many branch campuses?

[Dissected]

I guess I just don't understand why there are so many branch campuses that have cropped up in the last decade or so. Not to knock anyone attending these schools by any means, but it seems like any school can just start a branch campus b/c it has the parent school's name on it. Should the DO degree be about quality or quantity? I hope for the sake of the profession it is about the former.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[Laryngophed]

I guess I just don't understand why there are so many branch campuses that have cropped up in the last decade or so. Not to knock anyone attending these schools by any means, but it seems like any school can just start a branch campus b/c it has the parent school's name on it. Should the DO degree be about quality or quantity? I hope for the sake of the profession it is about the former.

I think some of it is spreading the degree, raising notoriety and filling a need to train more physicians. And then some it has to be about $$$. I don't think it is one or the other, but rather a mixture of the two.

 

[MJB]

I guess I just don't understand why there are so many branch campuses that have cropped up in the last decade or so. Not to knock anyone attending these schools by any means, but it seems like any school can just start a branch campus b/c it has the parent school's name on it. Should the DO degree be about quality or quantity? I hope for the sake of the profession it is about the former.

Figure 150 students at 30-40K per year in tuition....


It really seems rather straightforward. When I see/hear of schools expanding while still not having adequate clinical rotations for their current classes, I just have to shake my head.

 

[group_theory]

It's the money.

Sure, they may have a secondary goal of addressing physician shortages in underserved area. But first and foremost is the money.

LECOM was the first with its Bradenton campus. I remember attending a national convention and a lot of DOs were unsure if LECOM should be opening a branch campus since the school itself was brand new (only 10 years old, and at the time the newest kid on the block). Bradenton was a success (money wise) so other schools tagged along. The money saved in administrative overhead (shared admission process, shared administration, etc) is the advantage over opening a brand new independent school.

 

[Altruist]

It's the money.

No argument here.

My understanding is that it's also easier to get a branch campus accredited, than to go through the accreditation process as a new, independent school; so the trouble is minimal compared to the payoff from adding a few hundred more students. I suspect this is why LECOM opened up a branch campus at Seton Hill, as opposed to Seton Hill going through the process to open their own, separate school.

Who knows how much difference it really makes, though. COCA seems willing to make it as easy as possible for a school to be approved, so long as it means more DO's to justify the AOA's existence.

 

[WestcoastMedicine]

How is it for money? I thought the only For-Profit school was Rocky Vista.


Maybe it is easier for a school to open a branch campus than it is to get a new school accredited?

 

[Altruist]

How is it for money? I thought the only For-Profit school was Rocky Vista.

This is true. But the corporate boards of a lot of these places attended the Tommy Boy school of non-profit business theory: "You're either growin' or you're dyin'. There ain't no third direction!"

You start a non-profit. You run it efficiently, and suddenly you're sitting on a pile of money. What to do? Well, you've got to spend the money somehow--you are a non-profit, after all--so why not expand? Let's do a branch campus. Maybe open a school of pharmacy, why not? Maybe a wellness center, too. Maybe we could open up a couple of dental schools in 2011 and 2012...

I don't know what the original motivation was, but growth seems to be a motivation that builds on itself.

 

[GotMyHairDid]

This is true. But the corporate boards of a lot of these places attended the Tommy Boy school of non-profit business theory: "You're either growin' or you're dyin'. There ain't no third direction!"

You start a non-profit. You run it efficiently, and suddenly you're sitting on a pile of money. What to do? Well, you've got to spend the money somehow--you are a non-profit, after all--so why not expand? Let's do a branch campus. Maybe open a school of pharmacy, why not? Maybe a wellness center, too. Maybe we could open up a couple of dental schools in 2011 and 2012...

I don't know what the original motivation was, but growth seems to be a motivation that builds on itself.

^ This. Non-profits can only hold X amount of money all of the remainder must go back into the program/school. I'm almost certain that this fellow is referring to Midwestern University. He's right, if they have excess they put it back into their program and that usually involves opening a new side project. Like how CCOM gained a graduate school, then a pharmacy school, and now is MWU.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with this, btw. I much rather it go back into the school, then say in some shareholders pockets, *RVU -_-*

 

[Slack3r]

There's absolutely nothing wrong with this, btw. I much rather it go back into the school, then say in some shareholders pockets, *RVU -_-*

It's not "going back into the school". MWU's DO program generating a surplus of funds to be used on a DIFFERENT program might as well be going toward shareholders: i.e. you see nothing. Opening ancillary programs does nothing to help the original program, besides crowding their facilities maybe.

 

[Kevin Baker]

Opening ancillary programs does nothing to help the original program, besides crowding their facilities maybe.

I respectfully disagree. A lot of these schools with branch campuses have opened up other healthcare related programs (pharm, vet, nurse, pod, clinics, etc.) which are integrated with the DO programs. It's a win-win for everyone on campus. Health students get exposure to other fields, the community gets a free or cheap clinic, DOs get real world exposure by volunteering at these clinics, etc.

 

[DocEspana]

I respectfully disagree. A lot of these schools with branch campuses have opened up other healthcare related programs (pharm, vet, nurse, pod, clinics, etc.) which are integrated with the DO programs. It's a win-win for everyone on campus. Health students get exposure to other fields, the community gets a free or cheap clinic, DOs get real world exposure by volunteering at these clinics, etc.

what that guy said.

and this is coming from the dude at a school which is 3.75 years old and already has a pharm school and a clinic built from early money that came in (admittedly some of it from momma touro) and couldnt be held onto so it was reinvested into things within the main campus building.

 

[Slack3r]

what that guy said.

and this is coming from the dude at a school which is 3.75 years old and already has a pharm school and a clinic built from early money that came in (admittedly some of it from momma touro) and couldnt be held onto so it was reinvested into things within the main campus building.

Eh, maybe if the facilities are medically related (clinics, etc.). I just don't see the benefit of a school opening a dental program with money from their osteopathic program. Aside from $$$.

 

[Cheshyre]

Eh, maybe if the facilities are medically related (clinics, etc.). I just don't see the benefit of a school opening a dental program with money from their osteopathic program. Aside from $$$.

I go to COMP where we have a ton of programs - dentists, oph, pod, nursing, PAs, pharm, vets.. I'm sure I'm missing a couple programs, but whatever.

I think it's kind of cool. We're going to work with these people in the future anyway, so why not get to know them and figure out what exactly it is that they do? It's interesting to see why people got into the profession they did and what their perspectives are.

It's also good for public perception. Around the area, you'll see medical professionals of all types who come from "Western University of Health Sciences". It spreads the name, and to me, that's something that MD schools do much better than DO schools.

(Side note: Yeah, there's a Gentleman's Agreement or whatever to not advertise, but for example, you'll find ads all over the country for the University of Michigan Health System. Radio ads. TV ads. Even if a person knows NOTHING about an institution, a really slick ad might make them have thoughts like, "Oh yeah.. University of Michigan Hospital. I heard they were pretty good."

I'm using this ad as an example because I'm from the area and I think it's really well done.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TxwcizqYFMI

Conversely, this ad makes me never want to call a lawyer, EVER.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQuLEoi_bQI )

Anyway, back to the main topic.
Having multiple programs also allows the school to change from being simply a stand-alone medical school to being a "University." I can't remember exactly what it did for my school, but being able to call the institution a University makes it eligible for some benefits.

 

[Dissected]

Conversely, this ad makes me never want to call a lawyer, EVER.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQuLEoi_bQI )

Btw- Westen COMP is great, I almost went there and did their NW track. How do you feel about the branch campus opening up in Oregon?

what that guy said.

and this is coming from the dude at a school which is 3.75 years old and already has a pharm school and a clinic built from early money that came in (admittedly some of it from momma touro) and couldnt be held onto so it was reinvested into things within the main campus building.

What are your clinical rotations like? It seems like you have to share New York with quite a few other schools!

 

[DocEspana]

What are your clinical rotations like? It seems like you have to share New York with quite a few other schools!

Its the overseas medical schools that have all the rotation sites in manhattan. Here are the hospitals with american 3rd year students in them.
NYU Tisch - NYU
Bellvue - NYU
NY Presby - Columbia and Cornell
Mt. Sinai - Einstein.

thats it. every other hospital in NYC is totally saturated with overseas medical students for the 3rd year. There are 20ish hospitals in manhattan. 4 have american students in them. There may be a few scattered here and there. For example, some 3rd years from Einstein go to Bronx Lebanon still, but thats 1) in the bronx, so im not really counting it and 2) they are pulling out just like we did and columbia did because the Ross students are simply buying every spot and we wont pay for that.

The overseas school situation: IT SUCKS.

TouroCOM has 3rd year rotations as follows: 5 hospitals in north jersey literally right over the hudson river. St. John's in Queens. Staten Island University hospital in SI. And a few minor hospitals for specialties (one in queens, two in westchester) that we can swing by, but are separate from the main options.

We can also go to Binghamton or Utica if we want, though those are extra sites. But they are actually pretty popular. They are nice hospitals, apparently. Just not my cup of tea.

 

[Dissected]

thats it. every other hospital in NYC is totally saturated with overseas medical students for the 3rd year. There are 20ish hospitals in manhattan. 4 have american students in them. There may be a few scattered here and there. For example, some 3rd years from Einstein go to Bronx Lebanon still, but thats 1) in the bronx, so im not really counting it and 2) they are pulling out just like we did and columbia did because the Ross students are simply buying every spot and we wont pay for that.

The overseas school situation: IT SUCKS.

They can pay to play

 

[DocEspana]

They can pay to play

not for long <cue evil music>

i hope.

hahaha. there is a large culture that has pretty much fully developed in the NY medical education system (including the hospitals) that they are about to try to get rid of this practice. They just need to covnince albany to dictate this to the guys who hold the purse strings.

yea thats a hard sell, but we're trying.

 

[MSmentor018]

No argument here.

My understanding is that it's also easier to get a branch campus accredited, than to go through the accreditation process as a new, independent school; so the trouble is minimal compared to the payoff from adding a few hundred more students. I suspect this is why LECOM opened up a branch campus at Seton Hill, as opposed to Seton Hill going through the process to open their own, separate school.

.

easier and cheaper.....the accreditation is already done! all bean counting and paperwork is from erie, pa. the mother school. I only wished I had business savvy and invested in opening up new branches, absolute genius!

 

[DrWBD]

To answer the original question posed:

 

[DocShow]

Just as a point of information, branch campuses are NO longer approved by COCA. The last branch campus to be approved is VCOM-Carolinas Campus. From now on, any new school with a DO curriculum will be a stand alone school. This means branch campuses are NO MORE!

So everyone who is worrying about the "money-hungry" people, who are popping up these "DO production factories", can now rest soundly at night [insert sarcasm here].

I should say that though I do think LECOM is trying to take over the world (Schools of Dentistry soon to come...really!), not all schools are opening with the intent of profiting from students. Yes, they hope to make enough money to sustain the school and have a firm financial base so that the school doesn't close in 3 years. However, I think assuming that every new school that opens is to make people get rich is a flawed thought process. IMHO

 

[MLT2MT2DO]

Just as a point of information, branch campuses are NO longer approved by COCA. The last branch campus to be approved is VCOM-Carolinas Campus. From now on, any new school with a DO curriculum will be a stand alone school. This means branch campuses are NO MORE!

So everyone who is worrying about the "money-hungry" people, who are popping up these "DO production factories", can now rest soundly at night [insert sarcasm here].

I should say that though I do think LECOM is trying to take over the world (Schools of Dentistry soon to come...really!), not all schools are opening with the intent of profiting from students. Yes, they hope to make enough money to sustain the school and have a firm financial base so that the school doesn't close in 3 years. However, I think assuming that every new school that opens is to make people get rich is a flawed thought process. IMHO

Do you have a source? I'm fairly sure the new Western-OR campus which opens its doors for the C/O 2015 this year is already COCA approved.

For the OP, to be fair my UG (and I know they aren't the only ones) used plenty of the academic money to fund sports. I'd rather a school expand than blow it on a WAC football team that is never going to get into the PAC-10 (12) because they third rate academics and probably always will.

 

[Slack3r]

Just as a point of information, branch campuses are NO longer approved by COCA. The last branch campus to be approved is VCOM-Carolinas Campus. From now on, any new school with a DO curriculum will be a stand alone school. This means branch campuses are NO MORE!

So everyone who is worrying about the "money-hungry" people, who are popping up these "DO production factories", can now rest soundly at night [insert sarcasm here].

I should say that though I do think LECOM is trying to take over the world (Schools of Dentistry soon to come...really!), not all schools are opening with the intent of profiting from students. Yes, they hope to make enough money to sustain the school and have a firm financial base so that the school doesn't close in 3 years. However, I think assuming that every new school that opens is to make people get rich is a flawed thought process. IMHO

Ya, that $50k/year tuition certainly doesn't line anyone's pockets.

 

[DocEspana]

Ya, that $50k/year tuition certainly doesn't line anyone's pockets.

'flawed' not 'incorrect'. Some of that money does draw wealth back to bettering society, the practice of medicine, and the medical school itself. Just like some of my pennies falling out of my pocket draws wealth away from my bank account.


hahaha. But in all seriousness. He did say flawed, so he was implying that its not a perfect analysis of the situation, rather than a straight out incorrect analysis.

 

[Dissected]

Do you have a source? I'm fairly sure the new Western-OR campus which opens its doors for the C/O 2015 this year is already COCA approved.

For the OP, to be fair my UG (and I know they aren't the only ones) used plenty of the academic money to fund sports. I'd rather a school expand than blow it on a WAC football team that is never going to get into the PAC-10 (12) because they third rate academics and probably always will.

lol....so you're a vandal then?

 

[MLT2MT2DO]

lol....so you're a vandal then?

I don't know how many times I've said to my wife "If I had to do it over again, we would have moved to Moscow instead of Boise". To be fair I did have some amazing faculty that cared much about my success.

 

[MSmentor018]

The example DocShow gave was LECOM ... less than $30k/year.

and a class size of 160 at bradenton, 140 or so at erie, I don't know how many at greensburg, PA = how much they make per class, per yr?

 

[csmittyB]

and a class size of 160 at bradenton, 140 or so at erie, I don't know how many at greensburg, PA = how much they make per class, per yr?

More like 270 give or take.

 

[DuxburyPembroke]

and ~100 per class at Seton Hill.

Plus the pharmacy students and dental students...

 

[dangit]

Just as a point of information, branch campuses are NO longer approved by COCA. The last branch campus to be approved is VCOM-Carolinas Campus. From now on, any new school with a DO curriculum will be a stand alone school. This means branch campuses are NO MORE!

So everyone who is worrying about the "money-hungry" people, who are popping up these "DO production factories", can now rest soundly at night [insert sarcasm here].

I should say that though I do think LECOM is trying to take over the world (Schools of Dentistry soon to come...really!), not all schools are opening with the intent of profiting from students. Yes, they hope to make enough money to sustain the school and have a firm financial base so that the school doesn't close in 3 years. However, I think assuming that every new school that opens is to make people get rich is a flawed thought process. IMHO

can you give a source to this info?

 

[dangit]

is anyone else concerned that there's too many schools popping up and not enough residencies? i read somewhere that there's too many law schools, pharm schools, etc and not enough jobs, essentially making their degrees worthless. feels like the same thing might happen with all these school popping up without enough post-graduate spots...

 

[DocEspana]

is anyone else concerned that there's too many schools popping up and not enough residencies? i read somewhere that there's too many law schools, pharm schools, etc and not enough jobs, essentially making their degrees worthless. feels like the same thing might happen with all these school popping up without enough post-graduate spots...

There is a massive excess in residency spots in the ACGME (roughly 2x as many spots as there are US-MD candidates for spots and constantly increasing). The AOA also provides many more spots than they have applicants, but only 44-49% of DO students apply to the AOA match so the number of spots couldn't sustain a 100% DO student --> AOA match, but it can support significantly more than the 50% of the graduating seniors that match into it.

The only caveat in this whole thing comes in that most of the excess spots in the ACGME match come in IM/FM and about 50% of the AOA leftovers come in as internship years.

even then though, what this really becomes is "as much as we complain we want specialties, the need is in IM/FM, and as much as we hate it, internship years are a functional way to a good residency." All that the constant demand for more residency spots has accomplished is allowing more IMGs to come into the country and fill up the less desirable spots, but also allowed them to have a more prominent role in our medical system. So while I dont totally support the rapid reproduction of satellite campuses just to 'grow the degree,' there is close to zero risk of it ever saturating the system when there are hundreds (thousand? I forget the exact value) AOA spots unfilled and around 12 or 13,000 ACGME spots unfilled.

IMHO: we need to start viewing medical education as even more competitive (i know. i cant believe i said that) so that we actually begin to crack the 50% of all ACGME residencies that go entirely unfilled each year because "they're FM/IM not at an elite site". Asking for more spots just gets us more FM/IM in the sticks of idaho or kansas, where doctors are needed, rather than interventional rads in LA, where we want them to be needed.

 

[DocEspana]

for the sake of citing my work, I cannot find the original "pie chart" i used to pull these facts out of. Its buried somewhere on the NRMP website. But I pulled the facts I did need off of MSU's website. One of the last slides of this ppt shows the info I was looking for. In 2010 there were 16,000 US MDs for 23,000 spots in the ACGME match. The numbers i saw on the NRMP are a little lower for number of US MDs, prob because it takes into account a small (But significant for this value) number of MDs who dont match, go military, or go into academic medicine, since 16,000 is pretty much exactly the number of US MDs, not the number of ACGME applicants.

http://scs.msu.edu/GMESeries2010/20...Analysis of the AOA & ACGME Match Results.pdf

 

[Coastie]

I guess I just don't understand why there are so many branch campuses that have cropped up in the last decade or so. Not to knock anyone attending these schools by any means, but it seems like any school can just start a branch campus b/c it has the parent school's name on it. Should the DO degree be about quality or quantity? I hope for the sake of the profession it is about the former.

It's about $$.

Branch campuses diminish the quality of the DO degree....and reek of for-profit education.

They also just sound silly. I'm attending the philadelphia college of osteopathic medicine...ATLANTA campus. How confusing is that? Or how about Lake Erie College of Osteopathic Medicine....BRADENTON, FLORIDA campus. You just gotta laugh at these names!

DO's better fix things before the residency hammer falls down in the next few years..we may find alot of our graduates without residencies if they keep expanding like crazy.

 

[MLT2MT2DO]

It's about $$.

Branch campuses diminish the quality of the DO degree....and reek of for-profit education.

They also just sound silly. I'm attending the philadelphia college of osteopathic medicine...ATLANTA campus. How confusing is that? Or how about Lake Erie College of Osteopathic Medicine....BRADENTON, FLORIDA campus. You just gotta laugh at these names!

DO's better fix things before the residency hammer falls down in the next few years..we may find alot of our graduates without residencies if they keep expanding like crazy.

You sure do love to troll anything "DO" on these forums.

Mind enlightening us where you attended school?

 

[DrWBD]

It's about $$.

Branch campuses diminish the quality of the DO degree....and reek of for-profit education.

They also just sound silly. I'm attending the philadelphia college of osteopathic medicine...ATLANTA campus. How confusing is that? Or how about Lake Erie College of Osteopathic Medicine....BRADENTON, FLORIDA campus. You just gotta laugh at these names!

DO's better fix things before the residency hammer falls down in the next few years..we may find alot of our graduates without residencies if they keep expanding like crazy.

Agreed.

 

[Laryngophed]

You sure do love to troll anything "DO" on these forums.

Mind enlightening us where you attended school?

Coastie may be harsh, honest and outspoken in his (her?) criticisms, but homeboy ain't a troll.

 

[JaggerPlate]

I thought Coastie was a DO?? No?

 

[Coastie]

You sure do love to troll anything "DO" on these forums.

Mind enlightening us where you attended school?

You're a pre-med, huh?

 

[Coastie]

Coastie may be harsh, honest and outspoken in his (her?) criticisms, but homeboy ain't a troll.

I want the DO profession to be strong. Dilution isn't the key...and degree change isn't the key. We need strong MD and DO programs to maintain a strong position as physicians.

 

[Laryngophed]

I want the DO profession to be strong. Dilution isn't the key...and degree change isn't the key. We need strong MD and DO programs to maintain a strong position as physicians.

I never doubted as much, I was just noting that (from what I've seen of your posting style) you aren't bashful with your opinion and that you seem to post when you have something to say. That's all.

 

[Coastie]

I never doubted as much, I was just noting that (from what I've seen of your posting style) you aren't bashful with your opinion and that you seem to post when you have something to say. That's all.

Oh totally. I didn't mean anything towards you at all..I appreciated your comment.

 

[MLT2MT2DO]

You're a pre-med, huh?

Yeah, besides the fact this means I've been in the Pre-DO forums for the last couple years and have seen most of your "honest" posts their I'm not sure what this has to do with anything.

Truth is I'll probably be attending a branch campus even though I was accepted to its main campus. I'm not sure how the "diluted" the education will be. The board scores for the branch campus have been much better than their father? campus.

I think if anything reeks of $$ it would be some of the astronomical tuitions associated with some DO/MD schools moreso than branch campuses.

 

[dangit]

Hey Coastie,

I agree with you. Regardless of MD/DO, rather than building more schools, there needs to be more residency programs and I don't mean more FM/IM/transitional year/etc. How can one go about increasing more programs? Is it thru state funding? (I'm asking because I really don't know)

Also, according to DocShow above in post #20: (http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=10573452&postcount=20)

he states that COCA has now disapproved of any more branch campuses from being open. if this is true (or if DocShow can give a resource) wouldn't this be good news for you? it would certainly be for me. just for the record, i am NOT knocking on branch campuses, but I do worry that campuses are popping up like crazy...

 

[Laryngophed]

Hey Coastie,

I agree with you. Regardless of MD/DO, rather than building more schools, there needs to be more residency programs and I don't mean more FM/IM/transitional year/etc. How can one go about increasing more programs? Is it thru state funding? (I'm asking because I really don't know)

I have to disagree with you. If you look at law right now, you'll understand why increasing the number of residency spots is a bad idea.

 

[MLT2MT2DO]

I guess I'm not understanding.
I get the residency issue but what is the difference between opening a branch campus (such as the one Western did this year) versus opening a new campus (such as the one in Marion, IN next year).
DO schools are still expanding without any more residencies being opened whether it is a branch campus or not. To be fair some AOA residencies are being opened, the aforementioned ridiculous LECOM-Bradenton has led to the opening of some LECOM associated residencies in Florida this year.

 

[Coastie]

I have to disagree with you. If you look at law right now, you'll understand why increasing the number of residency spots is a bad idea.

Agree. Law is a horrible place to be due to massive oversupply and tons of diploma mill schools..We do NOT want to go there.

 

[Coastie]

I guess I'm not understanding.
I get the residency issue but what is the difference between opening a branch campus (such as the one Western did this year) versus opening a new campus (such as the one in Marion, IN next year).
DO schools are still expanding without any more residencies being opened whether it is a branch campus or not. To be fair some AOA residencies are being opened, the aforementioned ridiculous LECOM-Bradenton has led to the opening of some LECOM associated residencies in Florida this year.

Residency is huge. With the oncoming crunch, the importance of residency placement cannot be overstated. New schools are actively discriminated against, and new DO schools get double discrimination in MD residencies. Sorry, but that's reality.

Clinical rotations are another huge piece of the puzzle. Sorry, but "finding your own" stinks. I've said it before: do not attend a med school that does not have it's own, LOCAL, clinical rotations. Preferably a university hospital. You'll live to regret it.

Having been on the "educator" side of those who do "away rotations", I can assure you that the "local med school kids" get far better education and priority over someone who is from another school that visits for a month or three.

 

[dangit]

I have to disagree with you. If you look at law right now, you'll understand why increasing the number of residency spots is a bad idea.

Well, with law, there is not residency. good prospects depends on what firm is hiring (right?)

But with medicine, once you finish residency, you can go into private practice or work with a group, etc. According to your analogy, then, aren't you saying that there should be a limit on the number of medical school than the number of residency?

maybe i'm not understanding something...can you elaborate?

 

[Laryngophed]

Well, with law, there is not residency. good prospects depends on what firm is hiring (right?)

But with medicine, once you finish residency, you can go into private practice or work with a group, etc. According to your analogy, then, aren't you saying that there should be a limit on the number of medical school than the number of residency?

maybe i'm not understanding something...can you elaborate?

Don't be so literal and instead take it to mean just this: Law did not adequately limit and regulate the number of people entering, receiving, and finishing their training programs. Now there are more lawyers than jobs and they are all fighting amongst each other for the few available jobs. Even undesirable jobs are hot now, and the wages paid are way down. (At least in my area.) Medicine needs not to do the same thing. We have two choke points at which to do this and we need to do this.

 

[DocEspana]

Well, with law, there is not residency. good prospects depends on what firm is hiring (right?)

But with medicine, once you finish residency, you can go into private practice or work with a group, etc. According to your analogy, then, aren't you saying that there should be a limit on the number of medical school than the number of residency?

maybe i'm not understanding something...can you elaborate?

this guy makes roughly the point I was going to make. Large excess of residency spots means that there are excess jobs and money to go around, at least in the medical training field. If you wish to make the argument that it would flood the attending/private practice market. Well I haven't really given that argument much thought yet because its just way too complex of a system and most people just make the arugment for residencies. Which is based on a false idea that there arent 7-8,000+ more residencies than there are american trained doctors each year.