Why are you guys choosing third tier trash medical schools?

[Darrow O'Lykos]

Given OP's lack of understanding of the situation the masses have faced since 2008, I'd like to propose a theory that OP is actually Paris Hilton.

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[Socrates25]

That’s a very long winded way to say “I got mine, I don’t care about anyone else.”

I'm already doing my part, donating to the PACs and refusing to hire or associate with NPs or PAs.

BTW, PAs also have sights set on independence. Don't be fooled into thinking they don't want what the NPs have.

 

[Socrates25]

The main worry with NP’s shouldn’t be replacing a doctor one for one. I have said this a thousand times but it is worth repeating, especially now that people are paying attention to what has happened in EM.

The worry with midlevels should be that one midlevel doing all the “easy” cases can end up replacing an entire physician worth of work. For example, say 25% of a community general surgery practice is “easy” hernia repairs and there are 4 surgeons in the practice/hospital. If you get an NP to do just hernias, they can replace one of the physicians for $150k/yr instead of $400k like the surgeon. The other 3 surgeons would actually get a pay bump because they now can replace the hernia 25% of their practice with higher billing stuff from the 4th surgeon who just got laid off. They also will get a piece of the midlevel supervision billing after the hospital takes their (size-able) cut.

This exact same concept can be applied to ANY field in medicine, from outpatient primary care to tertiary center CT surgery and neurosurgery.

So I wouldn’t feel too confident by the fact that one NP can’t replace my entire practice as a physician. All they have to do is replace 25% of the patients for 4 physicians, and now one of is out of a job, while the other 3 physicians get a pay bump. Start training midlevels in “residencies” and they will start saying they can do 30-40% of a physicians job. Even doing 10% of a physicians job is scary if you realize that could lead to a 10% physician unemployment rate, which is insane given the time and money put into this profession.

Now, you might say, a midlevel doing hernias can’t be that good at it. And that we all know that even “easy” operations like hernia repairs have great data saying experience significantly improves outcomes. Cool, but we aren’t making the decisions on this, so I would not fall back on that. Same with “tHeY wiLl GeT suEd!!!” Cool. Just bump up malpractice insurance some and lobby heavily for more tort reform in heavy litigation states. If midlevels were seriously costing hospitals so much money from lawsuits, they wouldn’t be so prolific already. Midlevels don’t have to be as good as physicians at the “easy” stuff, they just have to be good enough. They also don’t have to catch as many land mines hidden in easy cases as physicians, they just have to catch enough hidden disaster to not overcome the huge cost savings from their lower salaries.

And all of this is with 0 midlevel independence. That’s not even the major problem here. Another thing is the insane oversupply of midlevels predicted in the next 10 years, which we have already started to see. If you think midlevels are cheap now, wait until there is a 5,000 surplus of surgical NP/PA’s in the Northeast alone.

Finally, EM is an example of what I am talking about that has already started to play out. A significant number of ED visits can be muddled through by a midlevel. Whether we say that is 50% or 20% of visits, that argument only is relevant when we try to figure out how many physicians will get replaced by midlevels.

The possible solutions are:
1. Stop midlevel expansion with legislation (lolol we are more likely to invade Canada than this happening)
2. Physicians will have to take a big pay cut to remain competitive with midlevels. Physicians will earn more than midlevels because physicians (hopefully) will always be able to do more and can supervise more people safely.
3. Find a field with Hyper-specialization, high technical complexity, and extreme acuity so a huge chunk of your hours can’t be replaced by a midlevel. Think congenital cardiac surgery, not general cards. Midlevels can and already do do caths, they aren’t going to be doing open heart surgery on a 2-day old even in a worst case scenario. But fields like that make up like 0.1% of physicians so…buckle up buckaroos.

I think a combination of 2 and 3 are inevitable. It’s just a matter of timescale and magnitude of salary/job market changes.

Thanks for coming to my midlevel TED talk.

Agree with a lot but not about cards, especially peds cards

When parents have a child with a congenital heart condition, they are usually assigned to the on-call cardiologist at the hospital. However, when they get discharged, the parents get to pick who their cardiologist is, and I've never seen one request an NP. If they get assinged to an NP, it's only because the cardiologists in the group FORCED that on the parents and it's an institutional decision.

NPs are a threat to doctors who work in settings where patients have no choice who they see.

 

[Lucca]

If you look at the last 20 or so new medical schools, you will notice a similar theme in their marketing/introduction materials.

The drive to open new med schools is really about $$$ and nothing else.

They'll coach it up about serving "underserved" areas but let's consider the case of Houston, Texas

In 2000 the greater Houston area had 3 medical schools (UTH, UTMB, Baylor) which was already a lot for one city.

Now they have 5 (actually six if you count Texas A&M branch campus at Methodist)

All of the new ones in Houston put out the same BS as Houston being an "underserved" area, ignoring the fact that there were several more schools opening. For those of you unaware, Houston has the largest medical center in the world -- the TMC. Calling Houston "underserved" is a sick joke.

Behind the scenes, the leaders of these schools told you what it's really all about -- the dollars. They sold them to the leadership of Houston and Texas as an ECONOMIC STIMULUS PLAN.

Think about that absurd logic for a moment. The reason they want to open up a med school is to "boost" the local economy.

My spidey sense told me someone was talking about H-town on the internet.

1. UTMB is not in the greater houston area. They do some rotations in Houston, though.
2. The existence of the TMC does not mean that the greater Houston metro area does not have underserved areas.

This is a map of the Texas DSPHS "designated high healthcare provider shortage" highlighted in blue with darker colors indicating higher need. Yes, the TMC is huge, but the catchment area it serves is also massive as Texas is an expansive, sprawled-out, state, and Houston metro area is the second largest growing area by population in Texas, with a 19.4% increase in population in the past decade.

While the majority of the city is not "underserved", the TMC and its academic centers serve a lot more than just people West of the beltway. And the eastern parts of the city too have higher levels of unmet need.

3. You are right that medical schools dont necessarily produce more providers to serve high need areas. Indeed, they frequently do the opposite with most grads flocking to big metro areas as soon as they can. So ya, that part is just propaganda. But people graduating from texas medical schools *are* more likely to stay in Texas. From TMA:

So while opening up a medical school is an intelligent investment for a University provided there is demand (and there's always demand), it also does serve a purpose of bolstering the state's workforce, and is important in one of the fastest growing states in the nation. Anyways, just correcting the record for Texas, dont mind me.

 

[Lawpy]

I'm already doing my part, donating to the PACs and refusing to hire or associate with NPs or PAs.

BTW, PAs also have sights set on independence. Don't be fooled into thinking they don't want what the NPs have.

I kinda trust PAs more than NPs just by sheer differences in education alone

 

[YCAGA]

Agree with a lot but not about cards, especially peds cards

When parents have a child with a congenital heart condition, they are usually assigned to the on-call cardiologist at the hospital. However, when they get discharged, the parents get to pick who their cardiologist is, and I've never seen one request an NP. If they get assinged to an NP, it's only because the cardiologists in the group FORCED that on the parents and it's an institutional decision.

NPs are a threat to doctors who work in settings where patients have no choice who they see.

I think we agree on this too. My point isn’t that all peds cards or even FM physicians will be replaced by midlevels, just some physicians will be replaced which sucks for both the physicians that lose their job and the remaining ones. More applicants than spots almost universally ends up leading to worse working conditions for those who are lucky enough to have a job. Why offer 6 weeks vacation when an unemployed physician will take the job and agree to 0 weeks vacation.

Germany is a perfect case study for this. For much of the 20th century, German physicians were doing years and years of what essentially amounted to prelim years, PhD’s and other resume building, just to get a residency in the German equivalent of rural South Dakota. There were just not enough residency positions for the amount of domestic medical school graduates. Unsurprisingly, once you actually got a residency spot, working conditions were brutal. Tons of scut work, 80+hr/week, low pay, little vacation, tons of call, etc. And the worst part is, both you and your boss knew that there was a stack of applications on his desk for tons of qualified physicians who would gladly take your spot.

This all changed in the early 2000s when a German resident successfully sued and appealed all the way to the EU courts (he lost his cases in the German courts) and got in-house on-call hours to count as work hours. This meant that hospitals could no longer count Q2 call and 110hr/weeks as 45 hrs because technically you only had to work 9a-6p and then the rest was “call”. So, because EU law limits how many hours you can work in a week, suddenly hospitals needed A LOT more residents.

Many hospitals have you sign an opt out clause for the number of hours you can work, but because demand for residents has outpaced supply, now the conditions for residents are much more humane in Germany. Over half of hospital departments pay overtime to residents and the ones that don’t pay overtime normally get away with it due to prestige, location (I.e. Munich and Berlin), or competitive speciality (pediatric surgery), or some combination of those. Benefits include: 14 months of paid family leave that you can divide up between each parent for each kid, 6 weeks vacation starting with PGY-1, ability to change residency with full credit theoretically every 6 months if working conditions/training quality are not to your liking, just to name a few. Also, at the same time, physician unions suddenly had much more bargaining power and were able to demand large increases in pay that were long needed.

So that’s a long winded way of saying: supply and demand has a huge impact on physician salary AND lifestyle. Midlevels diminish the demand for physicians, which is double plus bad.

 

[Steve_Zissou]

I'm already doing my part, donating to the PACs and refusing to hire or associate with NPs or PAs.

BTW, PAs also have sights set on independence. Don't be fooled into thinking they don't want what the NPs have.

I stand corrected.

And to answer the original question, I didn’t choose the third rate med school, the third rate med school chose me.

 

[FlowRate]

When your charged $2000 for just an ambulance ride (even when you have insurance, idk if this right but the point still applies) don't you think that's reason enough to bag on your own healthcare system? I had Myocarditis when I was 23 which required several days stay in hospital; how much would that have cost me and how long would it take me to pay it off?

It depends. For the majority of people the ambulance ride would be covered and the hospital stay would be whatever your hospital copay would be. Some people have high deductible plans and obviously some people are uninsured so there's a wide range. There's lots to criticize about our particular way of doing market/insurance based health care but often people from other countries get it just as wrong as we do about your wait times. (Although factually I thought it was interesting that the wait for adults to get evaluated for ADHD in the UK is around 1 year.)

If none of this scares you, just remember that most Western countries pay their physicians at the hourly rate of a US registered nurse, not even an NP or PA, and that is adjusted for cost of living/currency conversions.

Generalist physicians in most countries make in the band of 93rd to 97th percentile of their country's income range and specialists 95th to 98th. Unfortunately google has failed me every time I've tried to find the paper I pulled those numbers from and it's not so straightforward to pull income distribution ranges for each country in a timely fashion.

 

[YCAGA]

Generalist physicians in most countries make in the band of 93rd to 97th percentile of their country's income range and specialists 95th to 98th. Unfortunately google has failed me every time I've tried to find the paper I pulled those numbers from and it's not so straightforward to pull income distribution ranges for each country in a timely fashion.

My bad if it seemed like I was trying to imply that this is not the case. I agree completely and have found it to be true for the 10+ EU/EEA/EFTA countries I have done deep dives on, as well as the Commonwealth countries. Residents in Germany are actually paid in the >95th percentile of income nationally starting with PGY-1. That is a pretty great deal considering they work 40-60hours/week in residency and the median age at graduation is ~25.

 

[Chads2]

I didn’t choose the third rate med school, the third rate med school chose me

Who chose whom?

 

[IMG69]

It depends. For the majority of people the ambulance ride would be covered and the hospital stay would be whatever your hospital copay would be. Some people have high deductible plans and obviously some people are uninsured so there's a wide range. There's lots to criticize about our particular way of doing market/insurance based health care but often people from other countries get it just as wrong as we do about your wait times. (Although factually I thought it was interesting that the wait for adults to get evaluated for ADHD in the UK is around 1 year.)

The wait time is due to us not having enough physicians as I mentioned in my first post. It's that bad; 37% of registered doctors in the UK have a foreign medical degree, 30% of our total physicians are over 55 yrs old. Nobody wants to work in the NHS. I couldn't find current stats but in 2016 there was a shortage of about 200 GP's per region/city in the UK. It is so bad they are considering giving physiotherapists and pharmacists the ability to work in GP practices. By 2023 there is expected to be a national shortage of 7000 GP's, which is nearly 2 yrs worth of people matching into family med for the US. The NHS is also short 100k personnel in total.

It's like bailing out of a sinking ship with a spoon.

So yes that's why there's wait times. Nobody in my class wants to work in the UK.

 

[YCAGA]

This is strictly for MD schools, the vast majority of which give out scholarships, are cheaper than DO (on average), and/or tend to have wealthier students.

I bet if AACOMAS released similar data it would be as such. Taking into account ~20% of DO students have a master's degree (usually an expensive SMP), and lots of "reinvention"/post-bac work which is expensive.
150-199k: 15%
200-299k: 35%
300-399k: 25%
400-499k: 20%
500k+ 5%

I’m sorry but you’re just making up numbers…MD students are wealthier?? Show us the stats. If anything, the higher tuition would lead me to guess that wealthier students consider DO schools more often than poorer students. MD schools give out a bunch of scholarships?? No. 20% of DO students have a master’s? Cool. 23% of entering MD students pursued graduate study before medical school so your “DO’s have master’s” stat is actually lower than MD’s.

Not sure why you are trying to sell this narrative that DO students are poor, more educated, underdogs who pay more in tuition and get less scholarships. Weird.

 

[efle]

I’m sorry but you’re just making up numbers…MD students are wealthier?? Show us the stats. If anything, the higher tuition would lead me to guess that wealthier students consider DO schools more often than poorer students. MD schools give out a bunch of scholarships?? No. 20% of DO students have a master’s? Cool. 23% of entering MD students pursued graduate study before medical school so your “DO’s have master’s” stat is actually lower than MD’s.

Not sure why you are trying to sell this narrative that DO students are poor, more educated, underdogs who pay more in tuition and get less scholarships. Weird.

I'm with him dude, MD schools are much more likely to be at high endowment universities with stronger aid (need, not just merit). And it's been shown in the AAMC documents that lower income students have on average lower MCAT scores and grades. Research gap years I do think lean MD

 

[MaximusD]

You rule the Internet today!!!!!

Heavy wears the Crown. . Hope you’re well!

 

[YCAGA]

I fully support your previous point. I am not trying to "compare" the two degrees. It's just that socio-economically, students with killer MCAT/research (required for top med schools) tend to come from wealthy parents (adcoms, MDs themselves, researchers, etc.).

I know people attending DO schools and even Caribbean schools that extremely wealthy parents, but this is not the point or norm.

The point I'm trying to make is that the general public only sees MD statistics (AAMC) and applies it to ALL doctors (including DO/Caribb).

The average Joe/general public watching CNN hears "Doctors have $180k average debt, start school at 23-24, etc etc" will think this applies to ALL doctors when in fact SGU (Caribbean) is $280k in tuition alone +$100k COL = easily 450k with interest
Lots of DO schools have 50-70k tuition as well = easily 350-500k

So the average Joe will think "Hmmm.. why are doctors/residents complaining about their sacrifice... they all make 300k and can easily pay off that measly $180k average debt" They don't take into account that DO/Caribb are more likely to end up in peds/IM/FM (lower paying) + higher debt... etc

I’m still not following. You quote average debt for MD schools but then talk about tuition costs for DO schools. That’s comparing apples to oranges.

How do you think 25% of MD students have no debt? It’s not $0 in-state tuition or scholarships. It’s family help the vast majority of the time, sprinkle in some scholarships and the military. All of those factors still apply to DO schools.

 

[Goro]

How on earth did we go to three pages of the OP's sliming of his/her colleagues who have graduated or are attending the newer medical schools to yammering on about midlevels, European vs US health care, and now MD vs DO???

Oh wait, this is SDN.

 

[Lawpy]

How on earth did we go to three pages of the OP's sliming of his/her colleagues who have graduated or are attending the newer medical schools to yammering on about midlevels, European vs US health care, and now MD vs DO???

Oh wait, this is SDN.

We haven't hit Carib bad, patients bad, burnout sucks, debt bad, FIRE good, consults bad, specialty X dumb for not knowing Y when it's so obvious, med education broken, corporations bad etc etc

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

I kinda trust PAs more than NPs just by sheer differences in education alone

I don’t. I’ve seen PAs and graduating PA students say some really dumb ****.

 

[Lawpy]

I don’t. I’ve seen PAs and graduating PA students say some really dumb ****.

*shrug*

Their education is more standardized and rigorous than NP education. So PAs >>> NPs for me any day. That's my stance on all the midlevels are essential discussions. The fact that some say dumb things doesn't change much because i've seen a lot of dumb crap from even attendings on twitter

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

*shrug*

Their education is more standardized and rigorous than NP education. So PAs >>> NPs for me any day. That's my stance on all the midlevels are essential discussions. The fact that some say dumb things doesn't change much because i've seen a lot of dumb crap from even attendings on twitter

Yeah, that’s not a good enough argument. A slightly better version of something bad is still bad, and the “some attendings say dumb things” argument is completely ridiculous and non-sensical. It’s the same argument the midlevels use.

 

[Lawpy]

Yeah, that’s not a good enough argument. A slightly better version of something bad is still bad, and the “some attendings say dumb things” argument is completely ridiculous and non-sensical. It’s the same argument the midlevels use.

I'm saying PAs are comparatively better than NPs because their education is better. The fact that some PAs say dumb stuff doesn't affect this. If your point is PAs and NPs are both equally bad, i'm not sure what to say other than i probably overrated the quality of PA education

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

I'm saying PAs are comparatively better than NPs because their education is better. The fact that some PAs say dumb stuff doesn't affect this. If your point is PAs and NPs are both equally bad, i'm not sure what to say other than i probably overrated the quality of PA education

Right, I’m saying that PAs have a better education, but that shouldn’t make you just trust them more than NPs. They have a better foundation supposedly, but so many of them still seem to have not even a basic amount of medical knowledge. If I had to have one of them to work with, I’d take a PA because at least there is a medical foundation I could build on to teach them.

 

[Calizboosted76]

See, that's what happens when they blow up the font size and double space it.

Back in my day, it was single spaced, 4 point font, and you had to read it with bifocals... and you had to walk to the store it get cause there was no internet (except for AOL Instant Messenger)... and you had to go back and forth, up hill both ways... and you were naked in the snow cause we didn't have that fancy global warming....

I was excited to add a harder scenario to your comment but you touched on every scenario my grandparents ever used. Good man.

 

[Lawpy]

Right, I’m saying that PAs have a better education, but that shouldn’t make you just trust them more than NPs. They have a better foundation supposedly, but so many of them still seem to have not even a basic amount of medical knowledge. If I had to have one of them to work with, I’d take a PA because at least there is a medical foundation I could build on to teach them.

Oh got it. Yes i agree with you here

 

[LondonVibes]

How on earth did we go to three pages of the OP's sliming of his/her colleagues who have graduated or are attending the newer medical schools to yammering on about midlevels, European vs US health care, and now MD vs DO???

Oh wait, this is SDN.

I understand advising people to not apply in the first place, but once someone is graduated from new DO or even Carib and has made it into residency, they are our colleagues and must be treated as such.

 

[Putkernerinthehall]

If you build it, they will come. There are also tons of applicants with amazing credentials who get passed over every year for stupid things like being from California, being an ORM, being too young/old, having a bad but outdated GPA, etc. weighing them down who are probably disillusioned with the whole prestige-worshipping nature of medical education.

It’s not like any of the factors schools use to assess students actually translate to anything when they get into medical school. How useful were organic chemistry and the MCAT in being a resident? Premedical education is the biggest brain rot there is. Seriously I wish I’d majored in engineering or something practical rather than memorizing stupid proteins thinking it would have made a difference now.

There's a lot of useless stuff learned in engineering school too.

 

[Banco]

OP probably wouldn't even get accepted to a 3rd tier trash school with their original application if they applied today.

 

[Osteosaur]

My school's been pretty decent, its an older DO program, but the best I could get into. I don't think people will back out of medical school to keep the prestige high...

Would be nice if there was a way for students to better hold their programs accountable, but there is not. You are a captive audience to whatever **** is thrown your way.

 

[deleted941485]

The wait time is due to us not having enough physicians as I mentioned in my first post. It's that bad; 37% of registered doctors in the UK have a foreign medical degree, 30% of our total physicians are over 55 yrs old. Nobody wants to work in the NHS. I couldn't find current stats but in 2016 there was a shortage of about 200 GP's per region/city in the UK. It is so bad they are considering giving physiotherapists and pharmacists the ability to work in GP practices. By 2023 there is expected to be a national shortage of 7000 GP's, which is nearly 2 yrs worth of people matching into family med for the US. The NHS is also short 100k personnel in total.

It's like bailing out of a sinking ship with a spoon.

So yes that's why there's wait times. Nobody in my class wants to work in the UK.

Skeptical they cant find enough citizens that were born in the UK to do this work but I think more Brits caught on that its a bas deal and there are better professions out there. Nice to see medicine become nothing more than a pathway to citizenship!

 

[whataschool_classof24]

Skeptical they cant find enough citizens that were born in the UK to do this work but I think more Brits caught on that its a bas deal and there are better professions out there. Nice to see medicine become nothing more than a pathway to citizenship!

That's what happens when the government takes over medicine. People hate on capitalism but our profession and society would not be where it is today without it

 

[deleted941485]

That's what happens when the government takes over medicine. People hate on capitalism but our profession and society would not be where it is today without it

People hate doctors. People talk about how they "respect" them but at then end of the day respect costs them nothing and its all about bucks.

 

[IMG69]

Skeptical they cant find enough citizens that were born in the UK to do this work but I think more Brits caught on that its a bas deal and there are better professions out there. Nice to see medicine become nothing more than a pathway to citizenship!

The point is we do 2 years 'residency' in the UK then head to NZ/AUS for US pay with reasonable hours and we just walk into their system. It's a no brainer. As i've said in other responses; who wants to spend 10 years to become a gen surgeon and then get paid less than an American nurse.

 

[IMG69]

That's what happens when the government takes over medicine. People hate on capitalism but our profession and society would not be where it is today without it

You realise every country (to my knowledge) with public health care also has private healthcare? My dad for example will only see private doctors for 'big' stuff - his joint replacements etc. My mother went to a private Cardiologist when she had a concern.

The NHS serves it's purpose, everybody get's basically free treatment, if you're not urgent you can pay to skip the queue.

 

[Lawpy]

I don't know what we're talking about now

 

[whataschool_classof24]

The point is we do 2 years 'residency' in the UK then head to NZ/AUS for US pay with reasonable hours and we just walk into their system. It's a no brainer. As i've said in other responses; who wants to spend 10 years to become a gen surgeon and then get paid less than an American nurse.

Well good thing the grandfathering is next to impossible now, good luck doing this now without completing a US residency

You realise every country (to my knowledge) with public health care also has private healthcare? My dad for example will only see private doctors for 'big' stuff - his joint replacements etc. My mother went to a private Cardiologist when she had a concern.

The NHS serves it's purpose, everybody get's basically free treatment, if you're not urgent you can pay to skip the queue.

You previously touted how Uk docs can march right in because they want to get paid more, then you bash the American system from your self-righteous moral high ground as you claim how great the UK system is while doctors are trying to actively flee it, and have done so in the past

 

[IMG69]

Well good thing the grandfathering is next to impossible now, good luck doing this now without completing a US residency

You previously touted how Uk docs can march right in because they want to get paid more, then you bash the American system from your self-righteous moral high ground as you claim how great the UK system is while doctors are trying to actively flee it, and have done so in the past

Well NZ/AUS have a shortage of doc's, not sure why a US residency would make a difference.

I'm not sure why you're so angry, I didn't exactly bash the American system; I stated it sucks for patients but is excellent for Physicians. I'm not sure how that could be denied really? I think you're completely missing the point. There's the patient side and the Physician side to healthcare systems.

 

[Obnoxious Dad]

The

Well NZ/AUS have a shortage of doc's, not sure why a US residency would make a difference.

I'm not sure why you're so angry, I didn't exactly bash the American system; I stated it sucks for patients but is excellent for Physicians. I'm not sure how that could be denied really? I think you're completely missing the point. There's the patient side and the Physician side to healthcare systems.

And the NHS is so great for patients?
Now they don't even change the sheets in hospital | UK | News | Express.co.uk
Caesareans and pain relief for mothers giving birth 'should be cut to save the NHS money' | Daily Mail Online
'I've begun to feel like life is not worth living' says man, 71, who has waited 21 months for hip replacement (inews.co.uk)

I'll take my chances and pay the freight in the good old USA.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

The

And the NHS is so great for patients?
Now they don't even change the sheets in hospital | UK | News | Express.co.uk
Caesareans and pain relief for mothers giving birth 'should be cut to save the NHS money' | Daily Mail Online
'I've begun to feel like life is not worth living' says man, 71, who has waited 21 months for hip replacement (inews.co.uk)

I'll take my chances and pay the freight in the good old USA.

Even I have to admit that the UK has screwed up socialized medicine pretty badly.

 

[YCAGA]

That's what happens when the government takes over medicine. People hate on capitalism but our profession and society would not be where it is today without it

Example 329405 of someone talking about other countries' healthcare systems and having no idea what they are talking about.

25% of the physicians in the US are foreign trained. It is not like capitalism has kept our supply of physicians significantly more domestic. Canada has less foreign physicians (22%) and has government controlled healthcare (mostly). The Netherlands has 2-3% foreign trained doctors, high salaries, and amazing working conditions. Denmark has similar conditions and 9% foreign trained physicians. On the other ends of the spectrum, NZ has 42% foreign trained doctors.

My point with all of that being, the percent of foreign trained doctors has no correlation with whether the healthcare system has been "taken over by the government" or the quality of the healthcare provided.

Source: Health Workforce Migration : Foreign-trained doctors by country of origin - Stock

 

[Chads2]

ExampleMy point with all of that being, the percent of foreign trained doctors has no correlation with whether the healthcare system has been "taken over by the government" or the quality of the healthcare provided.

How did we get so far off track? I want to go back to being offended by someone calling my med school “trash.”

 

[YCAGA]

How did we get so far off track? I want to go back to being offended by someone calling my med school “trash.”

Because calling OP an out of touch idiot is the lowest hanging fruit possible water is wet, the sky is blue, etc

 

[Steve_Zissou]

How did we get so far off track? I want to go back to being offended by someone calling my med school “trash.”

I would be offended, if it wasn’t true of my little DO school.

 

[whataschool_classof24]

Example 329405 of someone talking about other countries' healthcare systems and having no idea what they are talking about.

25% of the physicians in the US are foreign trained. It is not like capitalism has kept our supply of physicians significantly more domestic. Canada has less foreign physicians (22%) and has government controlled healthcare (mostly). The Netherlands has 2-3% foreign trained doctors, high salaries, and amazing working conditions. Denmark has similar conditions and 9% foreign trained physicians. On the other ends of the spectrum, NZ has 42% foreign trained doctors.

My point with all of that being, the percent of foreign trained doctors has no correlation with whether the healthcare system has been "taken over by the government" or the quality of the healthcare provided.

Source: Health Workforce Migration : Foreign-trained doctors by country of origin - Stock

No european country has wages anywhere near US physicians, and Canada is an outlier in terms of socialized medicine. If it is implemented in the US it would be a total failure on all fronts

 

[efle]

No european country has wages anywhere near US physicians, and Canada is an outlier in terms of socialized medicine. If it is implemented in the US it would be a total failure on all fronts

The sky was supposed to fall when Obamacare passed, too...

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

The sky was supposed to fall when Obamacare passed, too...

Obamacare wasn’t socialized healthcare, and it wasn’t passed even remotely in the form it was supposed to be.

 

[efle]

Obamacare wasn’t socialized healthcare, and it wasn’t passed even remotely in the form it was supposed to be.

And yet still they cried the sky was about to fall, even just as a fine-enforced mandate with gov options. Regardless we have no reason to think we would become the UK instead of becoming Canada.

 

[Lawpy]

The sky was supposed to fall when Obamacare passed, too...

Obamacare wasn’t socialized healthcare, and it wasn’t passed even remotely in the form it was supposed to be.

And yet still they cried the sky was about to fall, even just as a fine-enforced mandate with gov options. Regardless we have no reason to think we would become the UK instead of becoming Canada.

I'm pushing for a 2 tier system to resolve the debates once and for all

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

I'm pushing for a 2 tier system to resolve the debates once and for all

Yes because forcing the poor people to have even more inferior care is the answer.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

And yet still they cried the sky was about to fall, even just as a fine-enforced mandate with gov options. Regardless we have no reason to think we would become the UK instead of becoming Canada.

Right but it was used as an example in a discussion about the sky falling in socialized medicine, and it doesn’t apply.

 

[Lawpy]

Yes because forcing the poor people to have even more inferior care is the answer.

Why would it be more inferior? It's extending the current system to ensure everyone has coverage + incentivizing skilled and experienced physicians to care for the poor.