Why chiropractic is a dangerous alternative medicine cult

[cdmguy]

Intelligence is not the same thing as knowledge. Anyone can get manipulated by well presented false information, your arguments for example, if they don't check sources. That's why they teach research analysis skills in medical school.

(Warning for facetguy: thought stop now, negative information ahead)​

Because chiropractic is a destructive alternative medicine cult this article is appropriate:


Cults: Public Perceptions vs. Research



Cult components with respect to chiropractic (see referenced article)

• Hidden agenda-patient dependency, overutilization
  
• Unsuspecting person is a prime target for cult recruiters-MD gatekeepers, prospective college students
  
• Blame the victim-something is wrong with chiropractic critics (competition, practice failure, poor skill)
  
• Milieu Control-censor chiropractic forums, limit student access to information at chiropractic school (bulletin board approval, newspapers, class lecturers)
  
• Mystical Manipulation-zealous "mission from God" message is very common in chiropractic. Innate intelligence religious construct. "Body by God" chiropractic. Christian chiropractic clubs at chiropractic colleges.
  
  
• Demand for Purity-refusal to allow drugs and surgery by national associations. Also hatred of medicine.
  
• Loaded Language-special chiropractic words "TIC" (chiropractic), "TOR" (chiropractor), "innate intelligence", spizzerinctum (chiropractic excitement), "safety-pin cycle", mixer, straight
  
• Doctrine over Person-students commonly receive low or failing grades in classes until they stop supporting public health (early classes) and sell chiropractic propaganda well enough to meet patient quotas (later clinic classes).
  
• Dispensing of Existence-only chiropractic is true health care. Medicine is only good for emergencies.

See the Chirotalk Skeptical Discussion forum, Google and Chirobase.org for many examples.

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[facetguy]

.

For some odd reason, you seem to be really proud of yourself. This is, what, the third anti-chiropractic thread you've begun now, all in different SDN forums trying to get attention. You even recently resurrected a TEN YEAR OLD...yes, a TEN YEAR OLD thread on chiropractic. All this despite your inability to ever respond to any of my literature-based responses to your nonsense.

For the benefit of those reading along, prepare for little more than hyperbole, fear mongering and sensationalism. You will find no evidence/literature-based anything in CDM's posts.

 

[cdmguy]

Facet has proven himself to be a propaganda monger and contrary to his post above he did not rebut one point in the above post (which you can see in the thread). I do enrourage you to read the quoted thread and make use of the information about how to identify good chiropractors and the need for the medical professions to defend themselves from chiropractic's ongoing struggle to undermine it.

Don't take facet too seriously. As you will see his earlier posts were highly misleading and revealed misinformation and cherry picking of data. In addition, rather than address negative information he resorts to ad hominem attacks and distraction.

If anyone else needs me to provide sources (they are readily locatable on Google, Chirotalk and Chirobase for anyone who cares to look) I will be happy to do so but otherwise I'm not going to waste my time doing it for him since much of this is already known.

 

[lee9786]

http://ph-ms.ouhsc.edu/ah/rehab/kinsinger.wmv

This sums it up well. I have a pretty good feeling Chiropractic won't be around in ten years. PTs have strength in numbers. The number of PTs in the past decade has increased while DCs have decreased. Enrollment in chiropractic is down. While PTs have been leading research in neuromusculoskeletal habilitation, rehabilitation, and conservative pain management; DCs are still using this subluxation philosophy which was derived in the 19th century and has been disproved for years. Their biggest threat is from within though, as we can see from chirobase and chirotalk. A few want to redefine themselves and evolve into the 21st century, but the overall movement isn't in that direction.

Physical therapy is well positioned to displace the DC profession. PTs have evolving their education to include residencies for manual therapy as well as an emphasis on differential diagnosis. Contrary to popular belief, the move of the DPT has nothing to do with attempting to practice as primary care physicians - like the DC profession which makes claims as such and has successfully lobbied for the "physician" label in many states. The DPT will always work with physicians and be a part of the team. Differential diagnosis is about recognizing when an issue is outside of scope, and refer appropriately. This could be beneficial in a primary care environment run by mid-levels. Most patients will still be referred to PT from Physicians or midlevels.

PTs already have direct access in 43 states, and has been practiced safely in Canada for years. Whether or not it will ever become third-party reimbursable I don't know, but there's a good chance it will eventually be accepted by the other states. With PTs and Chiros both subject to third-party reimbursement decline, more patients will be paying out of pocket. They will be more prudent with how they spend their money. Since the PTs are "Doctors" now as they will no longer be seen as massage therapists with a high school education, and can compete directly with DCs.

Of course everything is done on the political level, which I believe chiropractic has a pretty strong presence from what I've grasped. I do think more DPTs will protect their education and degree more than in the past and get more politically active. PTs are generally much more unified than the DC profession.

I highly recommend anyone thinking about pursuing a career in chiropractic to research their options. PT has its problems to just as any profession, but is in a much better place if you want to practice conservative management and manual therapy. For those that like nutrition, Dietitians are well educated in this area. For those that want to work as primary care physicians, there is medical school.

 

[cdmguy]

I agree with everything you wrote Lee. Osteopathy is also a good choice.

 

[cbrons]

http://ph-ms.ouhsc.edu/ah/rehab/kinsinger.wmv

I'm watching this, pretty interesting

 

[cdmguy]

Now that's a powerful video. It should be required viewing for all health professionals and prospective chiropractic students.

By the way, the National Association for Chiropractic Medicine chiropractic professional association mentioned in the video is defunct (12:25). They couldn't get many chiropractors to be evidence based and gave up. Their highest number of members was only 100 out of 60,000 chiropractors.

32:10. Actual quote above door at the Palmer College of Chiropractic.

"Vaccination and Innoculation Are Pathological
Chiropractic is Physiological -DD Palmer"​

 

[Josh L.Ac.]

I've actually worked with Dr. Kinsinger and he is an amazing doctor.




What program are you using to watch the video?

 

[cdmguy]

It defaulted to my Windows Media Player. I agree about Dr. Kinsinger. Funny how the major chiropractic newsrag ran a story on him saying he was public enemy #1. Talk about shooting the messenger.

 

[Pharmavixen]

Lawsuit against chiropractor still pending (though the class action suit was thrown out).

This lawsuit arises from the fact that, once again, a perfectly healthy young woman's life has been irreparably and devastatingly damaged as a result of her exposure to a chiropractor's manipulation of the vertebrae in her upper neck to correct alleged subluxations. The procedure is an ineffective and dangerous one which chiropractors employ routinely. Ideological practitioners of chiropractic masquerading in the white smock of science perpetuate its unregulated indiscriminate use with the condonation and protection of their supposed regulator against all reason. It has got to be stopped.

 

[facetguy]

Lawsuit against chiropractor still pending (though the class action suit was thrown out).

Am I now supposed to go find stories on any one of thousands of cases where medical (or pharmacy) care didn't go so well and resulted in an adverse outcome? Please. You're better than that, Pharma.

 

[cdmguy]

Facet, stop misconstruing an overutilization issue and failure to establish medical necessity as simple adverse effects. You are making a red herring.

This woman is a good example of what construes chiropractic results and you are perfectly cool with that. You should be ashamed of yourself.

If you can't see the difference then you should be quiet and learn something. Look up the definition of medical necessity "doctor".

Also look up informed consent.

 

[facetguy]

Facet, stop misconstruing an overutilization issue and failure to establish medical necessity as simple adverse effects. You are making a red herring.

This woman is a good example of what construes chiropractic results and you are perfectly cool with that. You should be ashamed of yourself.

If you can't see the difference then you should be quiet and learn something. Look up the definition of medical necessity "doctor".

Also look up informed consent.

Perhaps I'll videotape a new patient I had this past week whose kidneys both shut down from NSAID use. I'll be sure to get some good footage from the dialysis center he now visits 3 days/week. Do you really think anyone along the way informed him that he might lose his kidneys by taking those drugs?

And CDM, what part of medical necessity don't you understand? Spinal manipulation is well established in the literature as effective for neck and back pain, as effective or more effective than anything else out there. Why, then, is any other form of care justifiable in your mind when spinal manipulation isn't? Answer: because you are biased (but we've already been through that) and you don't have a grasp on the necessary science to make the claims you make (we've been through that too, as you know).

 

[cdmguy]

Perhaps I'll videotape a new patient I had this past week whose kidneys both shut down from NSAID use. I'll be sure to get some good footage from the dialysis center he now visits 3 days/week. Do you really think anyone along the way informed him that he might lose his kidneys by taking those drugs?

Irrelevant to the topic

And CDM, what part of medical necessity don't you understand? Spinal manipulation is well established in the literature as effective for neck and back pain, as effective or more effective than anything else out there.

If you bothered to watch the video you'd know that chiropractors don't manipulate for neck and back pain but to correct subluxation so they regularly crack necks regardless of medical necessity.

Wake up man. Am I the only one getting tired of your BS?

 

[Pharmavixen]

Often in discussions with alternative medicine practitioners, they quote IOM results at me about the thousands of people who die from medication errors, or have a poor outcome from a medical intervention. What needs to enter into the conversation at this point is the reason those patients were receiving medical interventions in the 1st place. Many of these patients were seriously sick. That contrasts with the patients seen by alternative medicine practitioners. These patients (such as they are) have allergies or headaches or skin rashes or lower back pain; basically, minor complaints that may or may not go away on their own.

Comparisons of mainstream medicine with alternative medicine has to take into account the burden of much, much sicker people generally seen in the medical system. Of necessity, sicker patients means that treatments have to be used that have risks, because anything that works is going to have adverse effects.

The woman in the example above suffered from a relatively minor complaint, and wound up paralysed from a treatment that is not proven to have any benefit. Even if the risk is very minor; say 1:1,000,000, the risks - rare but serious - exceed the benefits - none. So responsible practitioners should not use this technique.

 

[facetguy]

Often in discussions with alternative medicine practitioners, they quote IOM results at me about the thousands of people who die from medication errors, or have a poor outcome from a medical intervention. What needs to enter into the conversation at this point is the reason those patients were receiving medical interventions in the 1st place. Many of these patients were seriously sick. That contrasts with the patients seen by alternative medicine practitioners. These patients (such as they are) have allergies or headaches or skin rashes or lower back pain; basically, minor complaints that may or may not go away on their own.

I'm guessing you are young and healthy and haven't suffered with a significant episode of neck or low back pain; perhaps I'm wrong. It's also noteworthy that neck and low back pain costs our healthcare system a good $100 billion/yr or so, which isn't so minor.

Comparisons of mainstream medicine with alternative medicine has to take into account the burden of much, much sicker people generally seen in the medical system. Of necessity, sicker patients means that treatments have to be used that have risks, because anything that works is going to have adverse effects.

No one would dispute that. I disagree with you that "alternative medicine" seeks to be some complete system of healthcare but rather "complementary", providing something for conditions that medicine doesn't always do well with. I also think that chiropractic isn't "alternative" at all.

The woman in the example above suffered from a relatively minor complaint, and wound up paralysed from a treatment that is not proven to have any benefit. Even if the risk is very minor; say 1:1,000,000, the risks - rare but serious - exceed the benefits - none. So responsible practitioners should not use this technique.

You are incorrect on this. What more can I say?

 

[cdmguy]

The woman in the example above suffered from a relatively minor complaint, and wound up paralysed from a treatment that is not proven to have any benefit. Even if the risk is very minor; say 1:1,000,000, the risks - rare but serious - exceed the benefits - none. So responsible practitioners should not use this technique.

Well put pvixen. No response needed facet. Just turn in your license at the door.

 

[facetguy]

Well put pvixen. No response needed facet. Just turn in your license at the door.

Am I the only one that sees the irony in CDM telling me to turn in my chiro license? Dude, you're confused again. You quit/failed, not me.

 

[cdmguy]

Sorry dude but I'm not the one putting people's lives at risk to pad my wallet. Loser.

 

[Pharmavixen]

You are incorrect on this. What more can I say?

I wouldn't necessarily lump chiropractic practice with total nonsense like homeopathy. If you've got a link, I'd totally read it (no HuffPo, please).

 

[facetguy]

I wouldn't necessarily lump chiropractic practice with total nonsense like homeopathy. If you've got a link, I'd totally read it (no HuffPo, please).

A link to studies?

 

[cdmguy]

I wouldn't necessarily lump chiropractic practice with total nonsense like homeopathy. If you've got a link, I'd totally read it (no HuffPo, please).

Pharmavix, chiropractic is nonsense. Manipulation has some utility though for PTs using a clinical prediction rule (which DCs don't use). Chiropractic itself claims it is separate, distinct and superior to ordinary manipulation by other providers-and not just on the basis of experience alone but by merit of their unique quacky collection of techniques.

 

[Pharmavixen]

A link to studies?

Yeah.

 

[cdmguy]

Yeah.

Don't feed the trolls vix. Facetguy couldn't do a proper research analysis if his life depended on it and has no credible research to support his silly point of view. He always defaults to ad hominems, arguments from authority, red herrings and other fallacies.

 

[cbrons]

Watching facet and cdm go back and forth is about the most entertaining thing I've done all week. Of course you have to feel bad for facet since he is so outnumbered on these forums.

And cdm I have to say I really enjoyed that video. I sit on the board of a large university and will be sharing it with the director of the nursing and physical therapy program.

 

[cdmguy]

Cbrons, I believe Lee gets the credit for Dr. Kinsinger's video but I'm glad you've enjoyed the discussion. You may want to check out the "Why is everyone against chiropractors" and "Chiropractic critical in the UK. Could USA be next?" threads as well if you haven't read them.

Facetguy's responses are typical indoctrination fallacies and propaganda with little original thought. You'll see them repeated ad nauseum in the Chirotalk "Hall of Excuses" and Jeers sections.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

Cbrons, I believe Lee gets the credit for Dr. Kinsinger's video but I'm glad you've enjoyed the discussion. You may want to check out the "Why is everyone against chiropractors" and "Chiropractic critical in the UK. Could USA be next?" threads as well if you haven't read them.

Facetguy's responses are typical indoctrination fallacies and propaganda with little original thought. You'll see them repeated ad nauseum in the Chirotalk "Hall of Excuses" and Jeers sections.

Either put up actual evidenced based studies or shut up. I've looked at every link you've posted in these debates and not one of them was actually worth a damn.

If you've got good evidence suggesting chiropractic is useless, post it. Otherwise, take your ludicrous bias and stop wasting everyone's time.

 

[cdmguy]

VA apparently you're failing to make the connections. If you can list specific reasons for your disagreements to the links I posted I'll be happy to discuss them however vague generalizations aren't productive. You don't need evidence based studies to understand why chiropractic techniques are biomechanically false because this is covered in physics [xray distortion, categories of motion (translations, rotations)]. Ample studies exist proving Motion Palpation analysis to be unreliable and the necessity of using posture as a starting point to understand motion is also covered in physics. Because the logical chain evidence underlying the mechanism fails then the methods aren't plausible and chiropractic defaults to nerve stimulation rather than biomechanical correction and its claims of being adequate to handle a niche correcting biomechanical deficits of the spine fails. Even if the studies weren't done we can't assume that an implausible method works based on a lack of evidence (though clinically it is common knowledge that manipulation doesn't lead to demonstratable changes in xray neutral position of the spine). However we don't have to rely on clinical case study observations because studies have been done comparing manipulation alone to manipulation and traction and they completely support the existing knowledge on ligament deformation. You can't change most spinal position with manipulation alone, even if it is biomechanically accurate and in the direction of a bonafide misalignment of the neutral position, without including specific traction forces because most patients have been in these positions so long that their ligaments and muscles have adapted with shortening to the positions.

A transformation to a lordotic configuration or increase in lordotic configuration occurred and was measured in the majority of treatment group 1 subjects, while no change in the control group and essentially no change in treatment group 2 was measured. Extension-compression traction combined with diversified chiropractic manipulation and drop table adjusting procedures may improve or partially reestablish the cervical lordosis in 10-14 wk of daily care. -Harrison, DD. The efficacy of cervical extension-compression traction combined with diversified manipulation and drop table adjustments in the rehabilitation of cervical lordosis: a pilot study.
J Manipulative Physiol Ther. 1994 Sep;17(7):454-64.

Rather than correct its problems with appropriate scope changes and honest promotion chiropractic continues on a shameless spin campaign of false advertising, propaganda, fallacy, cult tactics, indoctrination and legislative bullying. Chiropractic is best understood as a form of legalized crime rather than health care.

Luckily, as the case in Great Britain shows, more people are standing up and fighing it through legal means so hopefully greater numbers of US physicians will take Dr. Kinsinger's example and work to build opposition to chiropractic here in the states. There are plenty of other ways to discourage and prevent people from putting themselves at unnecessary risk with chiropractic care that don't involve a wholesale boycott of every chiropractic office (that was successfully spun by chiropractic into an anti-trust case). Just insist that any chiropractors you refer to subscribe to the NACM guidelines and you eliminate 99% of them.

Kudos to CBRONS to presenting the video to the Directors of Nursing and PT at your institution.

 

[facetguy]

VA apparently you're failing to make the connections. If you can list specific reasons for your disagreements to the links I posted I'll be happy to discuss them however vague generalizations aren't productive. You don't need evidence based studies to understand why chiropractic techniques are biomechanically false because this is covered in physics [xray distortion, categories of motion (translations, rotations)]. Ample studies exist proving Motion Palpation analysis to be unreliable and the necessity of using posture as a starting point to understand motion is also covered in physics. Because the logical chain evidence underlying the mechanism fails then the methods aren't plausible and chiropractic defaults to nerve stimulation rather than biomechanical correction and its claims of being adequate to handle a niche correcting biomechanical deficits of the spine fails. Even if the studies weren't done we can't assume that an implausible method works based on a lack of evidence (though clinically it is common knowledge that manipulation doesn't lead to demonstratable changes in xray neutral position of the spine). But studies have been done comparing manipulation alone to manipulation and traction and they completely support the existing knowledge on ligament deformation. You can't change most spinal position with manipulation alone, even if it is biomechanically accurate and in the direction of a bonafide misalignment of the neutral position, without including specific traction forces.



Rather than correct its problems with appropriate scope changes and honest promotion chiropractic continues on a campaign of false advertising and legislative bullying.

Luckily, as the case in Great Britan shows, more people are standing up and fighing it so hopepully chiropractic will eventually go extinct.

We're getting a little deep in the weeds here. Only you and I know what you're referring to. You like a technique called Chiropractic BioPhysics, which is exactly that: one technique. To CBP's credit, they have published a lot of biomechanical/mathematical research. I don't practice that technique and honestly don't know much about it beyond the basics. It's interesting that you, with your legal history with CBP, would use that particular technique in your posts, but whatever. Perhaps you've had a court-ordered change of heart.

As to the assertion that spinal manipulation doesn't change xray findings, again you are working with an older model of "bone out of place" thinking. The rest of us now understand that spinal function, stabilization, and related pain syndromes are much more dynamic and don't depend on static xray findings. But, since you quit chiropractic a number of years ago, I can understand why you wouldn't be keeping up with the research. Just be sure to tailor your comments to reflect this.

We should also make clear that the focus of CBP technique is to correct global spinal curves, not intersegmental position. You are correct that manipulation alone often doesn't restore, say, the cervical lordosis.

I'll quit here because nobody cares.

 

[cdmguy]

Facet, for once I agree with you- you have no idea what you are talking about. Just extrapolate that to all of your arguments and you'll start making progress on the learning curve.

MDs know what a ligament contracture is and the research cited above proves that manipulation doesn't affect spinal position. If multi-segmental curves have significantly deviated their normal neutral positions then intersegmental vertebra will have both abnormally high stresses and progressively increasing misalignments. It is impossible to have a healthy intersegmental position with pathological spinal curves. Your emphasis on miniscule vertebral malpositions (chiropractors consider 1 degree significant) while excluding global posture is ridiculous but an inevitable consequence of the chiropractic educational system that teaches the fallacy that intersegmental alignment is independent of global posture. It's also very telling that chiropractic falsely promotes itself as a biomechanical panacea yet CCE, the universal chiropractic accreditor, doesn't require traction in its standards to handle shortened ligaments while requiring the false biomechanical listings (aka Diversified and Gonstead listings).

How many times do I have to spell this out for you? Are you for real?

You've completely failed to support your position. True to form, it is complete opinion and wild speculation and largely irrelevant to the topic.

But just out of curiousity, how often do you get your neck manipulated? Do you use a clinical prediction rule or subluxation theology? Given the stroke risk you may want to reconsider this.

And don't let the door hit your butt on the way out...

PS-Try applying to a DPT program if you want to work in a real profession.

 

[facetguy]

Facet, for once I agree with you- you have no idea what you are talking about. Just extrapolate that to all of your arguments and you'll start making progress on the learning curve.

MDs know what a ligament contracture is and the research cited above proves that manipulation doesn't affect spinal position. If multi-segmental curves have significantly deviated their normal neutral positions then intersegmental vertebra will have both abnormally high stresses and progressively increasing misalignments. It is impossible to have a healthy intersegmental position with pathological spinal curves. Your emphasis on miniscule vertebral malpositions (chiropractors consider 1 degree significant) while excluding global posture is ridiculous but an inevitable consequence of the chiropractic educational system that teaches the fallacy that intersegmental alignment is independent of global posture. It's also very telling that chiropractic falsely promotes itself as a biomechanical panacea yet CCE, the universal chiropractic accreditor, doesn't require traction in its standards to handle shortened ligaments while requiring the false biomechanical listings (aka Diversified and Gonstead listings).

How many times do I have to spell this out for you? Are you for real?

You're stuck in a static mindset. I'm talkin' function, bro. I don't use xray findings for these purposes. "Miniscule vertebral malpositions" don't show up on my radar screen. And of course posture is important; I had an entire course on postural evaluation, and I'd be surprised if it were any different today.

You've completely failed to support your position. True to form, it is complete opinion and wild speculation and largely irrelevant to the topic.

What? One of us is guided by the literature, and one is not (save for the sporadic CBP reference). Guess who's who?

But just out of curiousity, how often do you get your neck manipulated? Do you use a clinical prediction rule or subluxation theology? Given the stroke risk you may want to reconsider this.

And don't let the door hit your butt on the way out...

PS-Try applying to a DPT program if you want to work in a real profession.

Cute graphics.

 

[cdmguy]

You're stuck in a static mindset. I'm talkin' function, bro. I don't use xray findings for these purposes. "Miniscule vertebral malpositions" don't show up on my radar screen. And of course posture is important; I had an entire course on postural evaluation, and I'd be surprised if it were any different today.

Now you're really picking nits. You analyze motion with the debunked Motion Palpation technique (no interexaminer reliability and no validity due to failure to consider posture first) and you think this is scientific.

What? One of us is guided by the literature, and one is not (save for the sporadic CBP reference). Guess who's who?

The first step to knowledge is knowing that you don't know. Unfortunately you haven't yet taken it. There's nothing wrong with that peer reviewed reference.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

VA apparently you're failing to make the connections. If you can list specific reasons for your disagreements to the links I posted I'll be happy to discuss them however vague generalizations aren't productive. You don't need evidence based studies to understand why chiropractic techniques are biomechanically false because this is covered in physics [xray distortion, categories of motion (translations, rotations)]. Ample studies exist proving Motion Palpation analysis to be unreliable and the necessity of using posture as a starting point to understand motion is also covered in physics. Because the logical chain evidence underlying the mechanism fails then the methods aren't plausible and chiropractic defaults to nerve stimulation rather than biomechanical correction and its claims of being adequate to handle a niche correcting biomechanical deficits of the spine fails. Even if the studies weren't done we can't assume that an implausible method works based on a lack of evidence (though clinically it is common knowledge that manipulation doesn't lead to demonstratable changes in xray neutral position of the spine). However we don't have to rely on clinical case study observations because studies have been done comparing manipulation alone to manipulation and traction and they completely support the existing knowledge on ligament deformation. You can't change most spinal position with manipulation alone, even if it is biomechanically accurate and in the direction of a bonafide misalignment of the neutral position, without including specific traction forces because most patients have been in these positions so long that their ligaments and muscles have adapted with shortening to the positions.



Rather than correct its problems with appropriate scope changes and honest promotion chiropractic continues on a shameless spin campaign of false advertising, propaganda, fallacy, cult tactics, indoctrination and legislative bullying. Chiropractic is best understood as a form of legalized crime rather than health care.

Luckily, as the case in Great Britain shows, more people are standing up and fighing it through legal means so hopefully greater numbers of US physicians will take Dr. Kinsinger's example and work to build opposition to chiropractic here in the states. There are plenty of other ways to discourage and prevent people from putting themselves at unnecessary risk with chiropractic care that don't involve a wholesale boycott of every chiropractic office (that was successfully spun by chiropractic into an anti-trust case). Just insist that any chiropractors you refer to subscribe to the NACM guidelines and you eliminate 99% of them.

Kudos to CBRONS to presenting the video to the Directors of Nursing and PT at your institution.

I'll go back and pull up your studies and critique them as soon as I can, might be a few days though.

As for the part I put in bold, yes I do. Logic doesn't always follow reality in medicine. For years, it would've been considered almost assault to put heart failure patients on beta blockers. Why slow heart rate in a person who's heart isn't working properly? Then, lo and behold, a really good study came out showing that this was actually a great idea. Logic is not always your friend in medicine, that's why we have studies.

 

[facetguy]

I'll go back and pull up your studies and critique them as soon as I can, might be a few days though.

As for the part I put in bold, yes I do. Logic doesn't always follow reality in medicine. For years, it would've been considered almost assault to put heart failure patients on beta blockers. Why slow heart rate in a person who's heart isn't working properly? Then, lo and behold, a really good study came out showing that this was actually a great idea. Logic is not always your friend in medicine, that's why we have studies.

Bear in mind that those studies apply to one specific chiropractic technique called Chiropractic BioPhysics, which is practiced by a small segment of the chiro profession. I'm not saying those chiros are bad people, or even that the science is bad. I'm just saying that these studies don't really apply to the manipulation literature at-large. It's a very different technique.

 

[cdmguy]

I'll go back and pull up your studies and critique them as soon as I can, might be a few days though.

As for the part I put in bold, yes I do. Logic doesn't always follow reality in medicine. For years, it would've been considered almost assault to put heart failure patients on beta blockers. Why slow heart rate in a person who's heart isn't working properly? Then, lo and behold, a really good study came out showing that this was actually a great idea. Logic is not always your friend in medicine, that's why we have studies.

VA, I understand but so far there isn't even a hint of case study or observational data showing that there might be unaccounted for effects that would allow what you are proposing. The Harrison study on spinal movement should show you what I am talking about.

 

[facetguy]

Often in discussions with alternative medicine practitioners, they quote IOM results at me about the thousands of people who die from medication errors, or have a poor outcome from a medical intervention. What needs to enter into the conversation at this point is the reason those patients were receiving medical interventions in the 1st place. Many of these patients were seriously sick. That contrasts with the patients seen by alternative medicine practitioners. These patients (such as they are) have allergies or headaches or skin rashes or lower back pain; basically, minor complaints that may or may not go away on their own.

Comparisons of mainstream medicine with alternative medicine has to take into account the burden of much, much sicker people generally seen in the medical system. Of necessity, sicker patients means that treatments have to be used that have risks, because anything that works is going to have adverse effects.

The woman in the example above suffered from a relatively minor complaint, and wound up paralysed from a treatment that is not proven to have any benefit. Even if the risk is very minor; say 1:1,000,000, the risks - rare but serious - exceed the benefits - none. So responsible practitioners should not use this technique.

PharmaV, as a pharmacist, you can help me out with this. Do patients with "minor complaints" such as lower back pain or headaches, as you say, take NSAIDS very often?

What are the estimates on the number of GI-related deaths per year from NSAID use? How about hospitalizations? I'd also have you add in renal injury, and perhaps cardiovascular complications from COX-2s, but you get my point.

People are recommended and/or prescribed NSAIDS with little thought toward risk, and they take them like candy. Thousands of patients die every year from NSAID-related complications, yet nobody bats an eyelash and NSAIDs continue to be seen as totally safe. And yet, somehow, cervical manipulation for similar conditions (i.e., neck pain, in this case) is viewed by you and others as outlandishly more risky when there is no data to support that. There is data, however, that shows that manipulation can be quite effective in these patients.

Now don't twist my words. I am not saying that NSAIDS have no value, and please don't try to paint me as some kind of anti-medical lunatic (which I'm sure you'll do anyway). But your rationale doesn't stand up.

 

[cdmguy]

Relating to NSAIDs I'm curious if physician education has started to discuss the role of food in inflammation as a pain magnifiier and how to emphasize anti-inflammatory foods as a way to decrease pain medication.

 

[Pharmavixen]

People are frequently prescribed NSAIDs for the short term - the dangers arise (in the main) from long-term administration. There are both GI and CV complications from NSAID use, as well as the possibility of renal injury. There are no longer indications for giving NSAIDs long-term, what with the development of DMARDs (for rheumatoid arthritis). One death estimate: 15 per 100,000 NSAID users, the elderly being particularly vulnerable. (Estimates do vary, as the causes of death of elderly pts are often multifactorial.)

But it's patients who take them like candy, despite warnings from their caregivers. What is insufficiently explored in our culture are the non-drug remedies for chronic pain, such as physiotherapy.

For other non-drug alternatives that do no harm, there's regular exercise and various kinds of massage.

The larger problem is that we live in a quick-fix society, where people are unwilling to suffer the slightest discomfort or inconvenience, and pop NSAIDs every time they feel a twinge. I suspect we'll see fewer deaths moving forwards, as today's elderly people suffering fatal consequences from NSAID use grew up in a time when NSAIDs were regarded as relatively innocuous, compared with what we know now. And like I mentioned, we have more alternatives to NSAIDs these days.

 

[cdmguy]

Vix,

I disagree that people should be tolerating pain. Pain magnifies overeating and would worsen the obesity epidemic. Another possibility to be considered (aside from hydration and a low inflammatory diet) is to harden the liver using supplements. In particular using vitamin C q6h and milk thisle to raise glutathione. Dark red and purple vegetables are also excellent for upregulating liver detoxification, especially kale. With improived detox the liver can better tolerate NSAIDS. Also, C and E provide anti-oxidant protection to the liver and kidneys.

 

[Cowy1]

Vix,

I disagree that people should be tolerating pain. Pain magnifies overeating and would worsen the obesity epidemic. Another possibility to be considered (aside from hydration and a low inflammatory diet) is to harden the liver using supplements. In particular using vitamin C q6h and milk thisle to raise glutathione. Dark red and purple vegetables are also excellent for upregulating liver detoxification, especially kale. With improived detox the liver can better tolerate NSAIDS. Also, C and E provide anti-oxidant protection to the liver and kidneys.

This is ******ed; who told you this crap?

 

[cdmguy]

It's not crap. Eat some kale.

http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=foodspice&dbid=38

 

[Cowy1]

Vix,

I disagree that people should be tolerating pain. Pain magnifies overeating and would worsen the obesity epidemic. Another possibility to be considered (aside from hydration and a low inflammatory diet) is to harden the liver using supplements. In particular using vitamin C q6h and milk thisle to raise glutathione. Dark red and purple vegetables are also excellent for upregulating liver detoxification, especially kale. With improived detox the liver can better tolerate NSAIDS. Also, C and E provide anti-oxidant protection to the liver and kidneys.

Bolded emphasis is mine.

"Harden the liver"? "upregulating liver detoxification"? What does that even mean, harden the liver? Where did you "learn" this stuff?

And don't send out another link to some naturopathy spam website.

 

[cdmguy]

Bolded emphasis is mine.

"Harden the liver"? "upregulating liver detoxification"? What does that even mean, harden the liver? Where did you "learn" this stuff?

And don't send out another link to some naturopathy spam website.

Sorry, apparently your toxicology knowledge is lackling. The things I mentioned upregulate phase 1 and 2 liver detoxification.


Kale boosts liver detox.
-CWW. Beecher, "Cancer Protective Properties of Varieties of Brassica Oleracea: A Review." AM J Clin Nutr 59(suppl.) (1994):1166s-70S.

Milk thistle (silymarin) boosts liver glutathione 35%, preventing depletion during detoxification.
-A. Valenzuela et al., "Selectivity of Silymarin on the Increase of the Glutathione Content in Different Tissues of the Rat," Planta Med 55 55 (1989):420-2.

Although you don't like naturopathy, Murray did include a great (though outdated) synopsis on detoxification in Encyclopedia of Natural Medicine (Murray, 1998. 2nd ed. pp 104-125).

I'm going to be lazy and not pull the references on C raising glutathione based on my trust in Murray's referencing. It does seem to work.

 

[Cowy1]

You're overreaching just a tad; extrapolating exploratory rat (cancer) research into definitive clinical results for pain treatment is not the way to advise patients.

And what are you gonna get them to do, eat an entire head of brocoli every day so it might help them take an extra quarter tab of tylenol? Hell, while it superficially seems that additional glutathione would be a good thing, what if they already have a malignancy present? Glutathione is known to help cancerous cells by fighting off oxidative stress.

Vitamin C supplementation has never been shown to have any significant benefits in populations that aren't already deficient as per FDA guidelines. And excess Vitamin E supplementation has been shown to increase the risk of death compared to patients taking a placebo.

While I sympathize with you mission of ridding chiropractic of quackery, naturopathy is no better (and probably worse). Check out sciencebasedmedicine.org

 

[cdmguy]

You're overreaching just a tad; extrapolating exploratory rat (cancer) research into definitive clinical results for pain treatment is not the way to advise patients.

And what are you gonna get them to do, eat an entire head of brocoli every day so it might help them take an extra quarter tab of tylenol? Hell, while it superficially seems that additional glutathione would be a good thing, what if they already have a malignancy present? Glutathione is known to help cancerous cells by fighting off oxidative stress.

Vitamin C supplementation has never been shown to have any significant benefits in populations that aren't already deficient as per FDA guidelines. And excess Vitamin E supplementation has been shown to increase the risk of death compared to patients taking a placebo.

While I sympathize with you mission of ridding chiropractic of quackery, naturopathy is no better (and probably worse). Check out sciencebasedmedicine.org

Cowy, thanks for the kudos on providing information about chiropractic. Regarding detox, the reason detoxification is important is that it addresses a source of inflammatory pain. Effects are cumulative so by making sure the patient has a good omega 3 to omega 6 fat balance (I shoot for 1:3), adequate fiber, adequate clean water and maximizing detoxification it absolutely reduces pain levels and not by a small amount. I have chronic inflammation and by doing this have observed my pain medicine dosages reduced by half. This is significant because I normally have to take the maximum amount of ibuprofen and acetaminophen per day (3.2 g and 4 g) and without doing this would easily be over. I currently take 75% the ibuprofen dose and 25% of the acetaminophen dose. So by limiting inflammation you reduce the wear and tear on your body and boost longevity.

It really isn’t hard to work kale into the diet as a replacement for part of the lettuce in a salad bowl. It just needs to be added slowly to not overwhelm the tastebuds with the bitter taste. Start with ¼ green kale ¾ romaine lettuce. Wash all commercial lettuce in a castile soap dilution to remove pesticide. Work up to 50/50 then repeat with red kale. Until you acclimate kale will be bitter but eventually the bitterness disappears. The best superfood vegetables for liver enhancement are dark red and purple bitters (kale, broccoli, aspragus). Watch out for some of them as they are high in fructose and may cause flatulence if overeaten or eaten with glucose.

Unsweetened supplemental psyllium and fiber foods are also great for finding toxins.

Your concern about cancer patients is a good one. Luckily they are rare in the population of pain sufferers.

 

[Cowy1]

Cowy, thanks for the kudos on providing information about chiropractic. Regarding detox, the reason detoxification is important is that it addresses a source of inflammatory pain. Effects are cumulative so by making sure the patient has a good omega 3 to omega 6 fat balance (I shoot for 1:3), adequate fiber, adequate clean water and maximizing detoxification it absolutely reduces pain levels and not by a small amount. I have chronic inflammation and by doing this have observed my pain medicine dosages reduced by half. This is significant because I normally have to take the maximum amount of ibuprofen and acetaminophen per day (3.2 g and 4 g) and without doing this would easily be over. I currently take 75% the ibuprofen dose and 25% of the acetaminophen dose. So by limiting inflammation you reduce the wear and tear on your body and boost longevity.

It really isn’t hard to work kale into the diet as a replacement for part of the lettuce in a salad bowl. It just needs to be added slowly to not overwhelm the tastebuds with the bitter taste. Start with ¼ green kale ¾ romaine lettuce. Wash all commercial lettuce in a castile soap dilution to remove pesticide. Work up to 50/50 then repeat with red kale. Until you acclimate kale will be bitter but eventually the bitterness disappears. The best superfood vegetables for liver enhancement are dark red and purple bitters (kale, broccoli, aspragus). Watch out for some of them as they are high in fructose and may cause flatulence if overeaten or eaten with glucose.

Unsweetened supplemental psyllium and fiber foods are also great for finding toxins.

Your concern about cancer patients is a good one. Luckily they are rare in the population of pain sufferers.

Your anecdotal account aside, don't trade one form of quackery for another. No need to get a fetish about eating certain kinds of "superfoods" (whatever that means); you probably wouldn't have any different outcome if you ate a varied, balanced diet and worked out regularly.

You are overreaching tremendously with your idea that you can improve liver detoxification and/or reduce a chronic inflammatory state by diet, at least in a clinically meaningful way. Far better to get some good cardiovascular exercise daily and not suck down cheeseburgers for every other meal.

And what "toxins" are you talking about, specifically? If you can't give me some specific ones then I'm going to have to refer you to "Cherokee Hair Tampons" South Park episodes.

 

[cdmguy]

Your anecdotal account aside, don't trade one form of quackery for another. No need to get a fetish about eating certain kinds of "superfoods" (whatever that means); you probably wouldn't have any different outcome if you ate a varied, balanced diet and worked out regularly.

You are overreaching tremendously with your idea that you can improve liver detoxification and/or reduce a chronic inflammatory state by diet, at least in a clinically meaningful way. Far better to get some good cardiovascular exercise daily and not suck down cheeseburgers for every other meal.

And what "toxins" are you talking about, specifically? If you can't give me some specific ones then I'm going to have to refer you to "Cherokee Hair Tampons" South Park episodes.

Be careful not to be prematurely dismissive of theories based on a negative attitude. Statisticians tend to assume the worst and while this is protective against quacks it has the disadvantage of shutting down new discovery generation. I'm sure many new ideas in medicine would never have seen the light of day had MDs taken this attitude at the onset rather than be curious and daring enough to experiment.

It's also a lot more fun and profitable.

Personal observations from a scientifically trained health professional which support known physiology, show repeatable trends in findings that survive cross over challenge may point to important new discoveries.

I've already referred you to Murray's Encyclopedia of Natural Medicine chapter on detoxification. Although I'm not in agreement with her supplement recommendations and think it is a bit outdated, another good source is The Body Restoration Plan by Paula Braille-Hamilton MD. Both books are extensively referenced.

The toxins I'm talking about are a myriad of fat soluble chemicals including BPA, heavy metal residues, past medication residues and pesticides. Fat is a sponge and sucks up everything from the blood.

I know for sure that my results are not due to general healthy lifestyle recommendations.

The average MD has a shorter lifespan than the general population. If you want to exceed it, take some time to review the books I mentioned.

 

[facetguy]

Cowy, thanks for the kudos on providing information about chiropractic.

Because that's what it's all about for you: getting kudos.

I’ve already referred you to Murray’s Encyclopedia of Natural Medicine chapter on detoxification. Although I’m not in agreement with her supplement recommendations and think it is a bit outdated,...

Just for future reference, Michael Murray is a he, not a she.

 

[Cowy1]

Be careful not to be prematurely dismissive of theories based on a negative attitude. Statisticians tend to assume the worst and while this is protective against quacks it has the disadvantage of shutting down new discovery generation. I’m sure many new ideas in medicine would never have seen the light of day had MDs taken this attitude at the onset rather than be curious and daring enough to experiment.

It's also a lot more fun and profitable.

Personal observations from a scientifically trained health professional which support known physiology, show repeatable trends in findings that survive cross over challenge may point to important new discoveries.

I’ve already referred you to Murray’s Encyclopedia of Natural Medicine chapter on detoxification. Although I’m not in agreement with her supplement recommendations and think it is a bit outdated, another good source is The Body Restoration Plan by Paula Braille-Hamilton MD. Both books are extensively referenced.

The toxins I’m talking about are a myriad of fat soluble chemicals including BPA, heavy metal residues, past medication residues and pesticides. Fat is a sponge and sucks up everything from the blood.

I know for sure that my results are not due to general healthy lifestyle recommendations.

The average MD has a shorter lifespan than the general population. If you want to exceed it, take some time to review the books I mentioned.

Cherokee Hair Tampons dude, you need to watch it. You're falling into many of the same logical traps that you accuse chiropractors of making. Rather than me (probably) wasting my time breaking this down point by point, you should just watch the episode. 20 mins, Hulu. If that doesn't break you out of the idea that "natural" is better than nothing will.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

The average MD has a shorter lifespan than the general population. If you want to exceed it, take some time to review the books I mentioned.

I'm sure its nothing to do with our years of sleep deprivation or intense schedules.