why come to the US?

[cool_vkb]

All about the benjamins.

Medical care as "service" is one of those self-gratifying myths some choose to buy into. And yet, how many practicing doctors in the United States actually offer a significant amount of charity care? How many hours per day will *you* spend treating uninsured patients for free?

How much additional tax are you willing to pay as a doctor (as discussed in the 'socialized medicine' thread) in order to provide health insurance to the poor in this country? Are you willing to live in a small apartment + ride a bike + throw away your expensive toys and financial security for your children for the priviledge of providing medical care to those who 'need it'?

If you aren't willing to make that kind of a sacrifice, what leads you to believe those from other countries would feel differently?

There's great delusion amongst some about the importance of economic security. Keep in mind that there are human beings, not too different from you and I in moral integrity and intellectual construct, who're willing to risk death + random arrest... just for the opportunity to clean your toilet for a few dollars an hour. It really is all about the benjamins.

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[f_w]

Did you ever found any US medical graduate doing that? May be few unlucky ones but in general i dont think US medical grads have any problems like that.

A couple of our students had to scramble, usually for a reason. You will certainly see more FMGs in the scramble, and I don't doubt that in general US grads get preference for positions. Nothing wrong with that, in the end the US gets the supply of physicians it needs one way or the other.
Look at Canada. They have an institutionalized system of discrimination against FMGs in the CARMS. As a result, they have large areas of the country facing massive understaffing issues.

They say they make up nearly 40% of Primary Care medicine. Now i dont know where they get their info from. Plus AMA's website also says 30-40 % of Primary Care physicians are FMGs.

Mhh, lets see, if US graduates make 56% of IM residents, where would that leave the foreign grads ?

Those good old days of FMGs are over. In 90s, many FMGs were able to get into these residencies and thats why you find them.

I should have mentioned, these are 2006 match data taken from the NRMP website.

No sir, the centre of Medicaid and medicare pays the grants to hospitals to pay for residents salary. So in a way they are paid tax money.

Medicare pays the hospitals so they have a supply of qualified physicians to take care of their beneficiaries. They don't really care where those people with medical degrees come from.

And FMGs bcoz of their status pay even higher taxes.

Please quote the section of the revenue code that makes FMGs pay higher taxes (I have allways filed the same 1040 or 1040EZ as my US graduate colleagues, maybe they had more deductions due to mortgage interest or student loan interest payments, but last I know my taxes are based on the same tax-table as yours).

They have to pay it bcoz they are enjoying so many benifits.

I pay the same taxes as anyone else. I drive on the same roads, my kids go to the same schools and the same police officer will show up if I call (and the US military goes abroad to ensure low gasoline prices for everyone) why shouldn't I pay taxes ?

And govt never pays loans to schools outside unless they are of higher academic standard.

The US goverment subsidizes primary, secondary and post-secondary education. So your 'tax-payers' who should get preference over FMGs in all likelihood have already cost the US goverment quite a bit of money (except for the small number of non-traditionals who had a career after college and already contributed to the tax revenues).

 

[f_w]

Hello! i guess you didnt read my first post properly. Iam an Indian graduated from Indian High School .

That is even worse. If you had been a product of the US public education system, this would have been understandable. For someone with an education from the commonwealth arena, your english language skills are embarrassing.

 

[Tired]

Sir, Why use words such as "fool" to adress people on a forum. Dont you think this is insulting and against professional standards. I dont think, as a MD you wanna call any of your patient "fool" if he uses bad english. Everyone has their own style of writing. SDN doesnt have any policy on writing. Then why this Inquisition? May be you could use more gentle language.

People commonly infer intelligence based on how an individual speaks, or the case of this forum, writes. It would not be unreasonable for me to infer that f_w is an intelligent person, given that he writes well and has the ability to make a coherent argument. Similarly, it is not unreasonable to infer that you . . . well, I guess you know where that's going.

 

[cool_vkb]

That is even worse. If you had been a product of the US public education system, this would have been understandable. .

, thousands of people come to USA for better education to study in Public universities and here you are saying education from Commonwealth countries is superior than USA.he he! you gotta be kidding. If that was the case then no one would have come from foreign countries to study here.

For someone with an education from the commonwealth arena, your english language skills are embarrassing

if people from USA uses impropper grammar its ok, but indian guys shudnt even use it why is this discrimination. I thought you said, all are equal in USA unlike canada.

And iam not representing my indian education here. I already said, its my personal option.

 

[cool_vkb]

People commonly infer intelligence based on how an individual speaks, or the case of this forum, writes. It would not be unreasonable for me to infer that f_w is an intelligent person, given that he writes well and has the ability to make a coherent argument. Similarly, it is not unreasonable to infer that you . . . well, I guess you know where that's going.

So according you if a person is a fool, its reasonable to say loudly he is a fool. So i should assume that, for you its reasonable to call your patient loudly a "fool" if he is a fool. Or you would consider him a fool but not speak out loudly. May be you think some person is ... but i dont think as a Professional person you wanna speak out loud. Thats going to be a professional suicide and bad marketting. Iam sorry man! you should control that mind. if by mistake you call a patient "fool" . Thats gonna be serious issue in your professional life.

 

[cool_vkb]

A couple of our students had to scramble, usually for a reason.

what do you mean "our students". Do you work in a foreign medical school.

But i must say, you have excellent knowledge on so many things. God bless you.

 

[Tired]

So i should assume that, for you its reasonable to call your patient loudly a "fool" if he is a fool.

Yes, because an interaction on an internet forum populated by educated medical students and professionals is obviously equivalent to the interaction between a patient and a physician.

 

[f_w]

, thousands of people come to USA for better education to study in Public universities and here you are saying education from Commonwealth countries is superior than USA.he he!

There are outstanding universities and colleges in the US, the public high-schools are lets say 'heterogenous' in quality.
High-school education in most of the commonwealth countries is certainly on par with what is available in the US. (and high-school is where people typically learn to read and write, and with 'write' I mean learn to put coherent thought onto a piece of paper).

And iam not representing my indian education here. I already said, its my personal option.

You made a point of your indian high-school education, not me.

what do you mean "our students". Do you work in a foreign medical school.

Having held teaching appointments at two US medschools.

 

[cool_vkb]

High-school education in most of the commonwealth countries is certainly on par with what is available in the US. (and high-school is where people typically learn to read and write, and with 'write' I mean learn to put coherent thought onto a piece of paper).

Please can you say which commonwealth countries are you talking that are certainly on par with what is available in the US.

Those who come to USA especially from commonwealth,naturally many of them are well educated, thats the reason they are in USA doing high skilled jobs. They are sent to convent and private schools. But that doesnt mean these countries are certainly on par with what is available in the US. The significant amount of population of these countries cant even buy food to eat, i dont think they can pay tuition fees of good school. atleast i have seen this in southeast asian countries. leave aside high school, i dont think many of them havent even seen first grade.

 

[cool_vkb]

Yes, because an interaction on an internet forum populated by educated medical students and professionals is obviously equivalent to the interaction between a patient and a physician.

Well, best of luck in your practice. I hope you control your mind and think what you speak in real life because you could really get in trouble if you keep on speaking what comes in your mind.

Just imagine, you calling your teenage patient a fool in front of everybody. I really dont think thats going to be a good experience for you and your professional life.

 

[cool_vkb]

Yes, because an interaction on an internet forum populated by educated medical students and professionals is obviously equivalent to the interaction between a patient and a physician.

And who gives the guarantee that they are indeed educated medical students and professionals.

 

[Tired]

Well, best of luck in your practice. I hope you control your mind and think what you speak in real life because you could really get in trouble if you keep on speaking what comes in your mind.

Just imagine, you calling your teenage patient a fool in front of everybody. I really dont think thats going to be a good experience for you and your professional life.

Thanks for the advice. Now that you've instructed me on how to be a better doctor, let me return the favor.

apostrophe: a mark used to indicate absent letters in contractions, dialect, and the possessive case

comma: used to indicate the separation of elements within the grammatical structure of a sentence

dictionary: a reference book containing an alphabetical list of words with information about them

and of course,

sarcasm: a verbal tone in which it is obvious from context that the speaker means the opposite of what he or she says

 

[cool_vkb]

Thanks for the advice. Now that you've instructed me on how to be a better doctor, let me return the favor.

apostrophe: a mark used to indicate absent letters in contractions, dialect, and the possessive case

comma: used to indicate the separation of elements within the grammatical structure of a sentence

dictionary: a reference book containing an alphabetical list of words with information about them

and of course,

sarcasm: a verbal tone in which it is obvious from context that the speaker means the opposite of what he or she says

He he! thanks for the english lesson. i really appreciate that but iam not on this forum to learn or write english. I'am not writing a TOEFL or IELT test here.laugh:

 

[leorl]

Cool it, folks. Just in general...it's a good idea to know what you're talking about with good evidence before making any sort of generalization.

 

[ILoveIceCream]

Isn't there kind of a deep paradox about this topic? I would think that most Americans would rather embrace a FMG's choice of practicing here, rather than overseas...wouldn't it make it more worthwhile to train them? It's the same concept as to why some states offer a lower in-state tuition to their residents...because no only have the residents contributed to the state's economy, they will most likely stay there after their medical school training to help that population. I would think that the American public would be more upset about someone training here, and in the process, using the resouces available here, and then go back to help their own people. As for the "benjamins", from where I was born, if I do decide to ever go back and practice over there, I would be treated and live like a king (very different than the life a typical upper middle class physician here in the US). Being a foreigner myself, with 2 citizenships, both Europe and Asia, I would much rather stay here in US after my training because I feel that I owe this country for the opportunity that it has given me.

 

[paheli]

I understand that this is a touchy topic to both sides, IMGs as well as AMGs. But, frankly speaking, reading the entire thread through, it's plain funny. I mean, somewhere in the middle, it was all about settling verbal scores! I wonder what would have happened if these people had met face-to-face and recognized each other. POW! BANG! CRASH!
Anyhoo, I'm an Indian IMG hopeful. This thread has opened my eyes to what I can understandably expect when I do land there.
I think I'm smart and intelligent, I hope to get a residency spot on my academic merit, I will live my life within the law, and will always pay my taxes. Some of my money will land up in my motherland, and some of it in the IRS. I will also hopefully live a reasonably comfortable life with my family, and contribute to the society that I will be a part of. If I live an honest life with integrity, I can't imagine where in the US I will not be welcome.
The world is all about mobile populations now. You go with the flow, where you're wanted, and where you will be valued and respected the most. One fact that's undeniable is that the US is perhaps the last country where merit still counts for something. And, for thousands of intelligent hard workers, they just want a chance to try to attain what they deserve[the chance that they can't get even in their homeland]. And, the US can only benefit from attracting such professionals.

 

[cool_vkb]

...

 

[f_w]

I personally will be very happy the day when US will follow UK's path for IMGs or atleast adopt a policy that neighboring Canada has.

In order for you to succeed in US medicine, they will indeed have to introduce barriers to the entry of more qualified candidates.

 

[paheli]

I have mentioned nothing about feeling grateful in my post. I have written that I am given a chance to 'prove' myself by 'merit'. Know what those words mean? I gain my position by fulfilling the required criteria. It's an open process. [Not only can you not express yourself or type well, you can't even understand written English!]
What do you mean by saying 'nothing to do with merit'? Open your eyes, my friend. I don't think I'll see many of the flunkies of my class ace the MLEs and specialize in the US. Why do we emphasize so much on the score? Coz it has 'nothing to do with merit'? Get real!
And, I am not amused by the way you throw the phrase 'you IMGs' around. You have mentioned on more than one account that you are a product of the Indian education system. If you have no pride in your roots, then zip it.
Americans are judging all Indians by the uncontrolled and foul-smelling verbal diarrhea of jackasses like you[and who can blame them], who don't even have a half-formed thought in their head. It's just sad that the rest of the sensible folk are silent. Why? Hearing 'Indians' like you talk irritates the rest of us. You've made it to a program, so you suddenly develop this disdain and condescension toward the ones still trying. Shame on you.
I am not going to continue the back-and-forth nonsense, frankly twiddling my thumb is more productive.
Mr not-so-'cool', good luck, coz you need it!

 

[cool_vkb]

You are bad mouth person. The SDN forum clearly states no personal attacks. Shame on you for acting like a school kid. Be professional. if you have that much problem from my post, complain it to the moderator. This is not some slum or fish market or your medical college's canteen where you can stand up and start abusing. You are going to be a resident. Learn to be professional. Yeah my post was inflamatory and yeah i use irritating language. But i dont do personal attacks.

If i want i can also use bad language and call you with worst kind of names. but its not in my brought up to do personal attacks.

And is there some kind of divine rule that if a guy is indian he is supposed to be IMG. Iam not an IMG, So yeah in future also i will keep addressing IMGs as "YOU IMGs". And neither there is rule about an Indian being proud of Indian roots. Iam a US citizen. I am proud of my country. So dont address me as an "INDIAN" or expect indianness from me.

 

[leorl]

Closing this thread. This is not a thread for mud-slinging between two users. Please discuss civilly through PM if you're so inclined.