Why did you choose DO school?

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I have a suspicious feeling Icewomen (fitting name) wants to become a doctor so she can feel like she's superior to everyone else.

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upenn....lol....not quite harvard is it? Or Johns Hopkins for that matter. That actually explains a lot...overcompensating I am sure.

Don't worry, all the REAL ivy league schoolers say the same things about you that you seem to be saying about everybody else. Upenn...thanks icequeen you have made my day.
 
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Originally posted by JKDMed
This whole "holsitic" ideaology isn't pure and utter crap. The difference is that an MD will more than likely see a person suffering from X condition, then prescribe medications to treat the symptoms.

A DO would inquire of the person other potential causes of condition X other than pathology. Working conditions, living conditions, etc. may all be factors contributing to the person's presentation of condition X. Eliminate the contributing factor and the person doesn't need to spend money every month refilling his prescription.

I have never seen or heard of an MD work like this, but have heard many stories of DO's doing this.

So MDs only treat the symptoms.:rolleyes: And don't get a social history.:rolleyes: Like Icewoman said this is your standard H&P, and looking at your signature I see that you're not even in med school yet so I'll explain History and Physical.
 
Ummm...sorry, Deuce, but last time I went to the doctor (an MD) he did NOT take a history or ask me anything whatsoever. He was just interested in what case I "brought" to his clinic (it was my first time as his patient, so he didn't have a history on file either). Needless to say, he's no longer my physician. If you're curious, he graduated from the U. of Wisconsin and did his residency in Ohio (Summa Health System).

That's the kind of physician I DON'T want to become when I grow up.
 
Originally posted by Icewoman
Are you still in college "Shinken"? Anyways, have you compared this experience with that MD with one with a DO?

Out of morbid curiosity, how many DOs have you had the pleasure of working with?
 
Are you still in college "Shinken"? Anyways, have you compared this experience with that MD with one with a DO?

No, I'm not in college (although sometimes I wish I still was!) :laugh:

I'm a bit on the "older" side.

Yes, one of the reasons I'm so "pro-DO" is because I've had great experiences with DO's. One is my wife's ob-gyn (I had no idea he was a DO. That's how I learned about osteopathic medicine) and the other is a program director for a med/peds residency program in an allopathic hospital. Both wonderful doctors. I was also exposed to DO's in one of my hospital volunteering experiences.

My experience with that particular MD was the worst. Not all MD's I've dealt with are like that, but that is a good example of a bad apple (I'm sure there are bad apples in the DO world too). This particular MD missed two diagnoses with my wife and the third time pulled that "quickie" exam with me. That's when we decided to switch to a different PCP. I understand how managed care etc. are cutting into doctors' times, but that was a little too much (maybe he was crabby that day...who knows).

I don't want people to think that I believe MD's suck and DO's rule, because that's not the case at all. I just happen to believe that in the real world, MD's and DO's are totally equivalent. There are good ones and there are bad ones. I have no reason to believe that, overall, DO's are somewhat less capable. I've applied to both MD and DO schools and even declined an MD interview when I got into Ohio U. I think I'll get a great education at either institution (allo or osteo).

By the way, Icewoman, isn't it great to talk to each other in a civil way? :love:
 
Icewoman,

I have a question for you....Would you rather be an MD and go to Barry University School of Medicine (not many people have heard of it and very little credibility) or go to a DO school? You seem to have strong opinions about MD vs. DO. But what if you were in a situation like that?
 
Originally posted by Icewoman
Haha... I'm usually quite a civil person... I just had fun starting up this post :)

Anyways, you're right that DO's and MD's are probably equivalent when they reach the community-setting. But if they are equivalent in that respect, why not just choose MD so that you don't have the glass ceiling to worry about?

I believe that being a good, compassionate doctor is really a personal thing. If your personality blows, then you'll be a crappy doctor regardless of whether you're DO or MD.

And let's not forget about academic medicine... a world truly dominated by MD's.

Also, not so long ago, minorities in this country did not have the many privileges as today's world.
Women didn't used to enjoy the same social status as men.
DOs didn't use to have admitting rights.

you get the point...
 
on the other hand, she does kinda have a point...
as far as i know...there are very few DOs who are in the most competitive residency programs (i.e. Derm at Mass General, Neurosurgery at UCSF, or Optho at Johns Hopkins) in the country, probably due to self selection among other factors.

Hence, if she was truly what she said she was, and she indeed went on to a highly ranked residency program in a competitive subspecialty, I doubt she'd ever encounter the scenario where she'd be ordered around by DOs...

Again this is just a phenomenon...this has nothing to do with the actual quality of the education, but I just want to point out some of the stuff that's written and posted isn't mockery at best and outlandishly inaccurate at worst.
 
I think many people are forgetting that there are many more non-traditional students in DO programs and doing a highly competitive residency at Johns Hopkins or Mass General is not high priority. Many have families, kids, etc. Many want to go into underserved areas and work as primary care docs. Must they go into highly competitive residencies for this? No. Can DOs get residencies at most of these places? Well, I would argue that they have a good chance. Although they much be highly motivated and do extremely well on the boards, but it sure isn't impossible. Just some food for thought.

Blake
 
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Originally posted by Icewoman
True anything is possible... but do you really want to wait around for DO's to "progress" when you could just become a MD?

Icewoman,

That is the great question "does an individual want to wait for progress"---why should they have to
I do agree with some of your earlier thoughts regarding if yo cannot get into MD the first time, you should strengthen you application and try again. I also suggest an applicant should try again and again until they achieve their goal which I assume would be an MD school.

It does come down to a personal choice whether someone is willing to face the discrimination that exists for individuals who graduate with a D.O. degree. It certainly will not stop someone from gong into a desired specialty but there is currently a challenge for D.O. graduates.

For undergraduates interested in medicine I would certainly push them towards MD school if they have no interest in osteopathy. many students are not fully aware of what osteopathy is, until they have to decide whether to wait another year, try MD again or simply take the D.O. route.

For those who are aware of osteopathy go for it and enjoy it for what it brings, for the others think carefully, pursue all other options before getting involved in something you may not enjoy. Do not succumb to slogans and propaganda, you may find yourself in a funny palce.
 
I had 1 MD offer out of state and 1 DO offer in-state. Because my wife had a good job and my kids were in good schools I opted to take the DO offer.

A Big Big mistake which I now regret. This is not something that I share with my classmates, but I do know of 1 other guy in my class who went DO and not MD - also based on location - he also regrets his decision.

On one hand there is no difference between DO's and MD's - practicing medicine "in the trenches". On the other we now find ourselves on the receiving end of exploitation and discrimination. The DO "profession" wants to make itself unique but can't find a defining philosophy - because there isn't one. It also continues to identify itself by a founder who's principles should be left where they belong - in the past.

The AOA and others who make a small fortune out of us have a vested interest in keeping us in our place. The only way forward is for all DO's and students to become involved as much as possible and effect change.

It's time for the osteopathic profession to split into osteopaths who practice like osteopaths in the rest of the world and for osteopathic physicians to move over and become allopathic physicians. No doubt many will disagree, but DO's have long battled to become more mainstream and have only had full practice rights since 1975.

As my father used to say - piss or get off the pot. Or, for the more sensitive among you - you can't have your cake and eat it.
 
Originally posted by Lexmark
I had 1 MD offer out of state and 1 DO offer in-state. Because my wife had a good job and my kids were in good schools I opted to take the DO offer.

A Big Big mistake which I now regret. This is not something that I share with my classmates, but I do know of 1 other guy in my class who went DO and not MD - also based on location - he also regrets his decision.
I'm curious as to why it is such a big mistake. I will probably choose DO over MD for location reasons as well.

Is it because of the limited opportunities when trying to specialize or for other reasons?
 
It was a big mistake for me - that doesn't mean that it might not be right for you. I just think that when you choose a DO offer over an MD offer you have to ensure that you're making a very well informed decision. Because once the choice is made there's no going back - well, not easily - a couple of people left at the end of the 1st year and went MD but they both had to start over - taking an additional 25k debt with them.

What does a DO degree offer you that an MD doesn't? Nothing. Forget answering "OMM". MD's can still do OMM if they want to. Forget "a unique approach" - 99% of DO's want to practice the same medicine as MD's. DO schools don't do well in the USA Today rankings (except for a couple in primary care). Faculty / student ratio is worse in DO schools. There seems to be more classroom hours and tests at DO schools.

What does an MD offer that a DO degree doesn't. More competitive access to residency programs. Higher academic prestige. More universal recognistion - both at home and abroad. Not forced to an AOA internship in several states - Florida and 4 others I think.

But you must bear in mind that there are many similarities, such as the same access to scholarships. And most importantly at the end of the day you'll still be working as a doctor. But as a DO you will be a minority voice within the medical community. IMG's have more lobbying power than DO's - go figure. That might not seem like an issue right now, but what if medicine goes through big changes in the future - even a contraction of jobs? Who will the AMA and mainstream medicine look after first - itself, ie. MD's before DO's.

If you know what field you want to go into that helps - if you're set on FP then DO will work as well as MD - if you want something more competitive then DO might not be such a good choice. If you're not sure, why narrow your chances and choices before the starting bell? If you can be sure that you never want a competitive academic position or never want to travel as a doctor then DO might work for you. But whatever you do make sure youe choice is well informed.
 
I disagree with this statement:
"If you can be sure that you never want an academic position or want to travel as a doctor then DO might work for you."

I recently discovered that not only do MD's teach in DO schools, but there are a number of DO's who are professors in MD schools! So far--I personally know two of my professors at NYCOM also teach at Sinai and NYU. And they are DO's--so be careful making such broad and general statements. As for being a doctor in a foreign country--the flow seems to be directed the other way...we have a number of foreign physicians who, upon getting here, want to be DO's.
 
The main problem facing osteopathic medicine today is not the lack of recognition, lack of perceived prestige, lack of many osteopathic hospitals, lack of residencies, but lack of cojones.

I have yet to hear a good reason for DO's to become allopathic physicians other than "as a DO people won't worship the ground I walk on". Competitive residencies? They're competitive whether as an MD or a DO. If your board scores suck as a DO, chances are they'll also suck as an MD. Just because you didn't get that dermatology residency at Yale as a DO doesn't mean you would have gotten it as an MD. You are still YOU regardless of where you study medicine, and that's what most people hate to admit. The degree won't make you competent, you make yourself competent.

If you regret becoming a DO because you don't get the same recognition as an MD here and abroad that's your problem, not the profession's. The millions of Americans being competently cared for by DO's don't seem to mind much.
 
If you regret becoming a DO because you don't get the same recognition as an MD here and abroad that's your problem, not the profession's. The millions of Americans being competently cared for by DO's don't seem to mind much. [/B][/QUOTE]


If recognition isnt the profession's problem, then why is the first thing I always hear after telling someone where I goto school

"what does osteopathic mean?"

usually with an associated funny look.

OH! WAIT! The wonderful AOA fixed all this with some ads in a woman's magazine.

It really must be MY fault that no one knows what the hell DO means.
 
annushka - Of course you see DO's teaching in MD schools and visa versa. But as you rightly point out these are broad and general statements - and as such they are correct. But as for foreign doctors wanting to be DO's - well, please give me an example. What would they stand to gain? What could they do that they can't do already?

Shinken-
>>I have yet to hear a good reason for DO's to become allopathic >>physicians.
Perhaps, we should view this from an alternative perspective - What's a good reason to have MD's and DO's as physicians? Do they have different philosophies? If so, I'd really like to hear what a DO philosophy is and how it's different. DO's spent forever trying to break into mainstream medicine - and now that they have, more and more DO grads distance themselves from the AOA and go the ACGME route. Why have USLME and COMLEX only for large numbers of DO students to take both?

>>If your board scores suck as a DO, chances are they'll also >>suck as an MD. The degree won't make you competent, you >>make yourself competent.
I totally agree - but why muddy the waters with the whole MD/DO issue and pretend that there's 2 different medical philosophies out there? And why would you want to run a marathon with 1 leg if you have the option of using 2? Sure, you might still get to where you want to be, but it may well turn out to be a tougher journey.

>>The millions of Americans being competently cared for by DO's >>don't seem to mind much.
The majority (ie. > 50%) of those patients don't even know that their doctor is a DO. I doubt that most would understand the difference or be concerned - because, my point is that there really is no difference.

>>If you regret becoming a DO because you don't get the same >>recognition as an MD here and abroad that's your problem, not >>the profession's.
My "regret" stems from the high level of disinformation provided by DO schools, the AOA, and the osteopathic profession in general. If people had been more honest with me when I was making my decision perhaps I would have made a different choice - and perhaps not. But, at least my choice would have been a more informed one.
 
I mycase, AZCOM was the best choice "for me". I could not be happier at AZCOM. as hard as our schedule is, the great people, teachers, and atmosphere make medical school a heck of a lot easier. And if any MD student or Doc has any doubts about me or my abilities when I get out of school...they'll last about 5 seconds;)
 
Lexmark--
NYCOM has a special program for foreign physicians called APEP (Accelerated Program for Emigre Physicians)--here's a link to it:
http://iris.nyit.edu/nycom/future/fut_emigre.htm
As you can see, they set pretty strict criteria. I actually know a bunch of people in this program. I asked them, "why don't you just study for the USMLE and become an MD physician?" They told me that getting into a residency upon graduating from a US-based DO school is much easier than getting into one upon graduating from an overseas MD school. Also, most of them like being osteopathic physicians...and this program is pretty competitive too--around 200 people apply, only 40 are selected.

Anyhow...broad and generalized statements are NOT true just by virtue of them being broad and generalized. It's like saying "all med school students are happy people" or "all med school students are depressed". I see a mix of both; some other school might have a larger percentage of either one. Some DO's might have more opportunities than MD's, some might have less...I think it depends on an individual person to make that happen for them. The workload is very difficult--it's always tempting to think that grass is greener on the other side.
 
Originally posted by Lexmark

>>If you regret becoming a DO because you don't get the same >>recognition as an MD here and abroad that's your problem, not >>the profession's.
My "regret" stems from the high level of disinformation provided by DO schools, the AOA, and the osteopathic profession in general. If people had been more honest with me when I was making my decision perhaps I would have made a different choice - and perhaps not. But, at least my choice would have been a more informed one.

I agree with your statement Lex.
I do believe their is a a high level of disinformation out there propagated by the DO schools, AOA and the osteopathic profession. It borders on propaganda!!
I was under the impression I was informed about osteopathy but at the end of the first year it is clear that this was not the case.

It seems as if there is always this issue from DO students of whether you regret you decision and somehow you are betraying the "cause"... this makes me laugh..I am sure your classmates have a second thought when they began cranial...

For the D.O. cultists please provide upcoming students with the truth and not the most current mantra. For example this thing about how D.O.'s have more of a holistic approach is nonsense. Please do not keep this idea alive.
.
 
STOP blaming other people for your own actions!

If you were misinformed and ignorant of the field you were entering it's your own fault. If you agreed to spend many years of your life working hard and accruing huge debt because of a two-page brochure from the AOA it's your own fault.

You mean you didn't talk to DO's about osteopathic medicine? To MD's? To current DO students (not the ones that have lunch with you when you interview but to current students that have nothing to gain from lying to you)? To residency program directors? If you went to DO school without knowing you had to learn craniosacral manipulation then it's not the AOA propaganda it's you that's at fault.
 
Originally posted by Shinken
STOP blaming other people for your own actions!

If you were misinformed and ignorant of the field you were entering it's your own fault. If you agreed to spend many years of your life working hard and accruing huge debt because of a two-page brochure from the AOA it's your own fault.

You mean you didn't talk to DO's about osteopathic medicine? To MD's? To current DO students (not the ones that have lunch with you when you interview but to current students that have nothing to gain from lying to you)? To residency program directors? If you went to DO school without knowing you had to learn craniosacral manipulation then it's not the AOA propaganda it's you that's at fault.

Shinken
What exactly is the reason for the tone in your response?

If it was directed at my last comments "I" am not blaming anyone for "my" actions. What I am doing is pointing out that there are some things said by the osteopathic profession that "in my opinion" are not true and may lead an individual to believe that they are.

I see you did not really address the example I gave...regarding the holistic approach which accordig to the osteopathic profession allopaths do not do.

For your information I was aware of cranial but it was not made clear that I would be taught techniques that were not completely proven.

Are you saying to me that when you inquired about the professionn a D.O. sat you down and said to you that we also learn cranial, it is unproven but it is a mandatory part of your cirriculum?
I think not. If you were given that information I believe you are one of the few.

This does not have to be a testy discussion. This is an opinion of a individual who has gone through the process and I do see major discrepancies. There is nothing wrong with critical analysis.

be kool...
 
Lexmark and Ganglion:

Could you please elaborate about the disinformation you feel is being spread by the AOA and DO schools? I am just curious.
 
It just bothers me a bit when MD's criticize osteopathic medicine, but when DO students do it, it really gets to me.

I've been to many physicians (MD and DO) as a patient. Trust me, in my experience everyone can be holistic but DO's seem to make it more a part of their practice. I have yet to see an MD approach a patient in a holistic way, PERIOD. Yes, students at allopathic schools are taught holistic methods. Just because they're taught holistic methods doesn't mean they'll carry that to their professional lives. I haven't seen it happen in my dealings with MD's as a patient. My wife's osteopathic Ob-Gyn takes holistic to a new level. I have yet to see an MD Ob-Gyn take such a "whole person" approach. I'm not operating on opinion or hearsay here, but in my own real life experience. Will it change later? Maybe. But for now, I'm a believer that on average , a DO is more holistic than an MD.

Yes, I was told by many students that cranial manipulation is a bunch of unproven nonsense but I have to learn it anyway if I go to DO school. No problem. I you go to MD school you have to learn to prescribe many drugs that nobody knows how they work, they just do in most patients that take them. Kind of sounds like OMT, doesn't it? It just appears to me that since allopathic medicine controls everything and has all the power and prestige, they're the ones that make the rules. If a DO observes 50 patients at his osteopathic hospital recover with OMT, it's just "anecdotal evidence". If an MD at Johns Hopkins observes that corn on the cob eaten after surgery makes people recover quickly, it's an "amazing discovery and a breakthrough in medical science that must be documented and pursued further." If it's not allopathic, it's anecdotal evidence. If it's allopathic, it's evidence-based medicine.

Remember when JAMA started publishing articles and studies about different kinds of alternative medical practices a few years ago? Some of those studies proved they worked! (yes, including moxibustion!) The allopathic medical profession went nuts and demanded those studies not be published anymore in JAMA. Is this evidence-based medicine or just protecting your turf? It doesn't matter whether OMT works or not, the allopathic profession will NEVER accept it anyway. How many studies have been published in allopathic journals proving the effectiveness of OMT in lower back pain and in children's otitis media? How many MD's do you see rushing to learn the techniques? It's quicker to write a scrip for a drug than to actually spend time with your patient and actually touch the patient.

Also, the AOA doesn't do a good job of publicizing osteopathic medicine, but the AOA is a political, bureaucratic group. I don't expect much of them in the way of things that make sense. Do a little experiment. Go out on a street corner and ask people if they know what a gastroenterologist does. Or perhaps an otorhynolaryngologist. Or what degree does an MBBS represent. Do you hear those groups of professionals complain about how they're not "recognized enough"? Of course not. Just concentrate on practicing good medicine. Your patients will recognize a good doctor regardless of your degree or AOA brochures.
 
Originally posted by Shinken
It just bothers me a bit when MD's criticize osteopathic medicine, but when DO students do it, it really gets to me.

Ans: who better to criticize than those who have gone through the process.

I've been to many physicians (MD and DO) as a patient. Trust me, in my experience everyone can be holistic but DO's seem to make it more a part of their practice. I have yet to see an MD approach a patient in a holistic way.

Ans: how can you really quantify who is more holistic than another. It seems as if its a rather difficult thing to do. Your one experience certainly does not make something a fact nor a trend.
But you are certainly entitled to your opinion.


Yes, I was told by many students that cranial manipulation is a bunch of unproven nonsense but I have to learn it anyway if I go to DO school. No problem. I you go to MD school you have to learn to prescribe many drugs that nobody knows how they work, they just do in most patients that take them. Kind of sounds like OMT, doesn't it?

Ans: you are not reading with comprehension. I am pointing out that an unproven technique/etc should not be a mandatory part of a school's cirriculum. These types of things make one question the foundation of osteopathic education.
I said nothing about the proven techniques of OMT.
I agree with your comment pertaining to pharmacology, there are some drugs that we are unaware how they work. Yet these drugs are researched are they not?..It clearly states what they have been proven to be useful for and most have papers to back it up. AND GUESS WHAT ANYONE IS FREE TO DO RESEARCH TO DISPUTE IT. Why does it seem like there is such an uproar when unproven osteopathic techniques are citicized. I dont see anyone's sphincter getting that tight when someone disputes the use of a drug (seeing this was the example you gave). The usual response is to get back in the lab and either enforce their original idea (with proof)or concede that it does not work.

I am not discussing published JAMA articles.or whether OMT will ever be accepted...lets address one point at a time.


"Go out on a street corner and ask people if they know what a gastroenterologist does. Or perhaps an otorhynolaryngologist. Or what degree does an MBBS represent. Do you hear those groups of professionals complain about how they're not "recognized enough"? Of course not"

Ans: My earlier comment has nothing to do with this. This would be another discussion.

I have no doubt I will be a good physician. I believe only I can decide what type of physician to become. I am exercising this right now. I chose to question why an unproven method or practice is taught as mandatory part of a professional college. It is a valid question and should not be dismissed. Please lets stick to the topic at hand.
 
Shinken ? In another post you state ?My guess is that in the EM department they probably don't welcome DO's.?

You seem to accept that DO?s are discriminated against which goes to my original point ? if given the choice between DO and MD why would you go DO? Why make things potentially more difficult for yourself? If you have an MD you don?t have to worry ?will they accept my MD??

I am now chasing down residencies ? I keep asking programs ?do you accept DO?s? Do you accept COMLEX or do I need to have USLME as well??. I have to worry about AOA recognition in case I want to work in states such as Florida. There are even some programs that accept DO applications but don?t accept DO students for electives.

People may not know what an (MD) otorhynolaryngologist does or what an MBBS is but these people sit under the AMA umbrella and benefit from being mainstream.

And please tell me exactly when DO students are taught this holistic approach? This is simply down to the individual, and most practicing physicians don?t have the luxury of spending time with their patients to discuss their DM or HTN that is being dealt with by their PCP. Most of my rotations have been with a mix or MD and DO students, and taught by a mix of MD's and DO's - when am I getting that little bit of extra holistic training - osmosis again?

Annushka ? I am quite aware of the NYCOM program. What I have heard is quite different from what you are saying. Let?s apply some common sense here (aka generalization) ? the biggest problem for foreign docs is getting a visa to work here. The NYCOM program only accepts legal residents. If said foreign doc is here legally with a degree recognized by the ECFMG then will they (a) take USMLE 1 & 2 , take CSA, apply to residency program ? cost approx $3,000, (b) go back to school for 3 years ? cost approx $100,000. Now if I were a US citizen that had attended a Caribbean school with hopes of transferring or was having problems with the school and had already invested a considerable sum, then this program starts to look attractive to me. I await your rebuttal with interest.
 
Originally posted by Lexmark
You seem to accept that DO?s are discriminated against which goes to my original point ? if given the choice between DO and MD why would you go DO? Why make things potentially more difficult for yourself? If you have an MD you don?t have to worry ?will they accept my MD??
It is safe to say that if a DO sticks to primary care then he/she may not have that big of problems when trying to get into a residency. You even stated this in your previous post.

Thus, as an aspiring primary care physician, I know that choosing DO over MD won't hinder me as much. Perhaps, you should have thought of that when deciding between MD and DO. If you knew you wanted to specialize you should have been an MD.

I personally find DO students who wish they went to an MD school or who put down osteopathy particularly annoying. Stop your complaining and show some pride in your profession you damn panzies. :rolleyes:
 
You seem to accept that DO?s are discriminated against which goes to my original point ? if given the choice between DO and MD why would you go DO? Why make things potentially more difficult for yourself? If you have an MD you don?t have to worry ?will they accept my MD??

Let me ask you, if you had to choose between KCOM or OU-COM or Meharry Medical College, which one would you choose? (I chose OU-COM) I think I'll get a better education at the osteopathic schools. My situation is special because I'm married and have a daughter to raise. I know I will never be at the top of the class or at the highest COMLEX percentiles, simply because I have to balance my studying with my family life. I don't think I'm making things more difficult for myself by choosing DO, I think things will be difficult for me regardless. Perhaps if I declined Hopkins for a DO degree, then you can say I'm dumb (and I would be). Many people like me that choose DO over MD are people that usually take more than the degree in consideration (location, tuition, etc.). The discrimination isn't that bad and the degree will not make up for personal deficiencies. If someone isn't as "smart" as he should be, he's going to have a hard time whether an MD or DO.

And please tell me exactly when DO students are taught this holistic approach? This is simply down to the individual, and most practicing physicians don?t have the luxury of spending time with their patients to discuss their DM or HTN that is being dealt with by their PCP

In this issue I always defer to my personal (yes anecdotal) experience. As a patient, I've always been treated in a more holistic way by DO's than by MD's. Again, this is just my current personal experience. Could it change in the future? Perhaps. The DO's have spent more time with me and my wife (and daughter) than the MD's. Like I said in a different post, my wife's Ob-Gyn (a DO) takes holistic to a new level. I've been spoiled, I guess, because all my experiences with DO's have been extremely positive. I know there are great holistic MD's out there and DO's that are jerks and don't care about holism at all, but if you average all MD's and all DO's separately, I truly believe there will be a much higher percentage of holistic DO's than MD's.

Who knows, maybe after spending a year or two at OU-COM I will think back at all this and think to myself "boy what an idiot I was!" But after talking to many practicing DO's and MD's, I don't see the difference between the two degrees at all. All MD's I've spoken to are happy that I'm becoming a physician. The DO thing is never even mentioned. Are they being polite? Maybe. All DO's I've spoken to have not discouraged me from choosing DO over MD. They're all happy I'm going to medical school. Maybe it's because I live in the Midwest and the Midwest is a very DO-friendly area of the US. Who knows? In the end, it's all a personal choice affected by personal decisions and different for everyone.
 
By the way, I'm going to stop posting in this thread. If you want to continue the discussion, feel free to PM me. I just don't want to continue this thread originally started by Icewoman.
 
It's realy funny how people who haven't even started med school yet have such strong beliefs about the DO philosophy. You guys should listen to those already in school and listen to their advise. Don't believe the hype the schools tell you, the DO philosophy is not that distinct in practice from how MDs practice medicine.
 
I have been reading some of the posts in this forum and i wanted to comment. As far as OMM goes there are some great things about it that work because i have used it and seen and more importantly, FELT it. Im sure that there are a few of my classmates that wish they were somewhere else, but i know that im not one of them. im going to be the first doctor in my family.

Iread earlier that you have to ask if the program accepts the comlex or not? or if a program takes DO's? This is info you have to find out especially since that whole ordeal of applying to a residency is so expensive anyway, i think its important so you dont waste your money. Someone stated in the above posts about DO's being at MGH or Hopkins and i ask you guys why come to some of these places where everyone talks behind everyones back and the PD's are treating everyone like SH@&!

I dont doubt that its harder for us be neurosurgeons or CT surgeons..sure its hard. i know i want to be ethier a gen, uro, trauma or transplant surgeon Thats my goal.
What am i going to do? im gonna do well on my boards, im going to do well in my rotations, im gonna read and study like everyone else that has these same goals. IT WILL HAPPEN BECAUSE I SAY SO!!
im proud that im going to be a DO
lex- your right at the end of the day it doesnt matter when your in the trenches.i think about it this way, im going to be an osetopathic physican, im gonna be a surgeon, my wife loves me..
I WILL SLEEP SOUNDLY knowing that.
 
Hey Deuce, the news is that the Drew program at Martin Luther King might lose all accredidation. That sucks. People don't even want to apply to the Drew program because of it. Hopefully it can last through your clinical years.

Maybe you should have gone to Temple.;)
 
I'm not worried about it slick.

I get to stay in CA and pay low tuition and get a UCLA degree in the end. You can't beat that, and if I would've gone out of state I'd probably would of picked tulane. I like warm weather. As for the residency programs at drew, I'm not worried, the drew students well end up doing our rotations at harbor, olive view or any of the other ucla affilated hospitals. I'd be more woried about COMPs rep and all the drama there, and about TUCOM, a school that has only been around for like about 4 years.;)

Do yourself a favor slick listen to those already in DO school, and go MD. Med school is hard enough as it is you don't need no psuedo sci class (OMM) to add on to that. If you are hell bent on learning it you could always do so after you get your MD. Also look at the thread about rotations and LCME accreditation at allo hospitals you'll see they take DO students as residents but not to do away rotations.
 
Originally posted by NebelDO
...I dont doubt that its harder for us be neurosurgeons or CT surgeons..sure its hard. i know i want to be ethier a gen, uro, trauma or transplant surgeon Thats my goal.
What am i going to do? im gonna do well on my boards, im going to do well in my rotations, im gonna read and study like everyone else that has these same goals. IT WILL HAPPEN BECAUSE I SAY SO!!
im proud that im going to be a DO...

My thoughts exactly Nebel! Way to go:clap:
 
Originally posted by Deuce 007 MD
Do yourself a favor slick listen to those already in DO school, and go MD. Med school is hard enough as it is you don't need no psuedo sci class (OMM) to add on to that.
Why does everyone tell me to go MD? IM TIRED OF IT. AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH....:laugh:

If I get into UCLA, USC, UCI, or Loma Linda then I'll go MD.:)
 
Originally posted by Slickness
Why does everyone tell me to go MD? IM TIRED OF IT. AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH....:laugh:

If I get into UCLA, USC, UCI, or Loma Linda then I'll go MD.:)

Why not Temple?
 
Originally posted by unk_fxn
Why not Temple?
I wasn't too impressed with Philly.
 
Originally posted by Deuce 007 MD
Do yourself a favor slick listen to those already in DO school, and go MD. Med school is hard enough as it is you don't need no psuedo sci class (OMM) to add on to that.

So...I guess I must be "psuedo" pain-free after one OMM adjustment that "pseudo" fixed a very painful neck problem that my MD could only give me muscle relaxers and celebrex for....

And my mom must be "pseudo" able to walk without pain after OMM tx for a bad hip that she has had for years. Her MD offered her drugs or more surgery.

I think its great to have another tool for my black bag. If you aren't comfortable with OMM or resent it, I wonder why you'd go DO in the first place?
 
Originally posted by sophiejane
So...I guess I must be "psuedo" pain-free after one OMM adjustment that "pseudo" fixed a very painful neck problem that my MD could only give me muscle relaxers and celebrex for....

And my mom must be "pseudo" able to walk without pain after OMM tx for a bad hip that she has had for years. Her MD offered her drugs or more surgery.

I think its great to have another tool for my black bag. If you aren't comfortable with OMM or resent it, I wonder why you'd go DO in the first place?

First of all have you ever heard of evidence based medicine and placebo effects. Second I'm not in DO school, look at my signature or my screen name and you will see that.

Here check out the archives of family medicine journals of the ama. http://archfami.ama-assn.org/issues...ll/fsa8021.html it states:

"Although many osteopaths use manipulation as an adjunct to treat many illnesses, there are no large controlled trials of the effectiveness of manipulation for conditions other than lower back pain ... Studies that have shown positive effects of manipulation for back pain have been criticized for not adequately controlling placebo effect. Doran and Newell65 concluded after studying 456 patients that although a few patients responded rapidly to manipulation, there were no significant differences compared with physiotherapy, corsets, and analgesics ... Osteopathic medicine is similar to allopathic medicine, but places a greater emphasis on the importance of the musculoskeletal system and normal body mechanics as central to good health. To support this emphasis, more basic research and controlled trials for the effectiveness of manipulation are needed."

And from http://www.quackwatch.org/04ConsumerEducation/QA/osteo.html

David E. Jones Ph.D.

"I spent 12 years teaching basic sciences and 7 years as an associate dean at the an osteopathic medical school ... The department of manipulative medicine was completely segregated from the other departments, both in principles and in practice. The osteopathic faculty members in the standard medical departments neither practiced nor taught OMT. Nor did the OMT faculty practice or teach the standard forms of medicine. It was as if OMT was a freestanding form of health care ... one that, unlike other departments, was not necessarily bound by scientific foundations. Being a basic science researcher, I have made attempts to set up an animal model to objectively test the claim that certain harmful forms of sympathetic nerve traffic could be altered by spinal OMT. However, I never received any support from the osteopathic faculty in seeing such a study completed. The general attitude of the osteopathic manipulation physicians was, "since we already know it works, why should we bother with proving it."
 
Slick,

I was in a similar situation as yours last year: accepted to both MD (UIC, MSU, Loyola) and DO (NSUCOM, PCOM, CCOM) and chose DO. I got some of the same responses that you got on this thread. But the truth is you have to make the right choice for YOU. So people regret DO, some regret MD, some regret medicine all together. I think it is important to make an educated decision on MD vs. DO and then chose based on that info.

For instance, if you go to DO school you might be descriminated against for some highly competitive residencies - a hard reality. But the truth about residency is its not about MD vs. DO its about board scores, research, and (perhaps most importantly) personality + connections. It's a tough idea for most people to swallow that getting the residency of your choice is entirely dependent on YOU as an applicant, there are no guarantees. It's true some residencies may may discriminate. But if a residency director has to choose between an DO he knows/respects and an MD from a top 50 school he doesn't know - all else being equeal, guess who he'll pick.

Anyway this is a little long-winded for a rare-poster like myself so if you have any ?s about why I chose what I chose let me know.

Peace all,
-Sun
 
Deuce,

at nycom, although some omm faculty only do OMM, we have faculty that incorporate it inot general practice. our preclinical dean did an allo internal medicine residency and some kind of OMM fellowship. he practices coth. from students that i have spoken to who use him as their physician in the clinic say that he uses OMM to supplement regular treatment/ or for things like back pain uses OMM first to see if it helps. NYCOM also has a new OMM physician who is a physiatrist who practices both. our dept o chair also has a family practice. the people who just do OMM may do so because they view it as their area of expertise and know their limitations ( this is what i think and hope)

p.s our anatomy profs give us some lectures on OMM
 
Deuce,

It is true that osteopathy needs more research. A large part of the problem is funding. That being said, there is more research going on right now than ever before--in fact, the national center for OMT research is at my school. I think you will start to see the results from that research in the not so distant future.

I am aware of the placebo effect.

I am also aware of the benefits of OMT because I have experienced them firsthand.

The ultimate goal is to make people better. Why are people like you so threatened by something so benign (yes I can back that up with numbers) as OMT, yet you will happily prescribe drug after drug that can have much more serious side effects on a much greater percentage of people?

I just don't understand why some of our medical colleagues are so threatened. IF you don't believe in it, don't practice it. It's that simple.

You certainly do spend a lot of time arguing against a treatment that you believe is equal to the placebo effect. Why do you care so much?
 
Originally posted by Lexmark
Annushka ? I am quite aware of the NYCOM program. What I have heard is quite different from what you are saying. Let?s apply some common sense here (aka generalization) ? the biggest problem for foreign docs is getting a visa to work here. The NYCOM program only accepts legal residents. If said foreign doc is here legally with a degree recognized by the ECFMG then will they (a) take USMLE 1 & 2 , take CSA, apply to residency program ? cost approx $3,000, (b) go back to school for 3 years ? cost approx $100,000. Now if I were a US citizen that had attended a Caribbean school with hopes of transferring or was having problems with the school and had already invested a considerable sum, then this program starts to look attractive to me. I await your rebuttal with interest.

Well, I have a perfect example--my parents both worked as physicians overseas. They decided to not waste money on school and take the USMLE...but about 10 years ago, this bias against foreign physicians started. So even if you took and passed the USMLE, you had a great difficulty with finding a residency. So great that in fact my mother wasn't able to get in (and she PASSED the test, with a pretty good score too). US grads are still preferred over foreign grads, no matter where they went to school. So a DO has an easier shot of getting that residency than an MD from France, for example. That was the point I was trying to make. And so a lot of my parents' friends went DO, and they're not regretting their decision one bit. They have wonderful practices and are very happy.

I actually had a shot at an MD/PhD program, but my father talked me out of it. Why go to school for 7 years, he said, when you can go to a DO school now? You're still going to be a physician and you're still gonna treat people. I think what everyone is forgetting in this crazy prestige game is the career choice that we made. And the patients--in the long run, they don't care who you are. Look at freaking health food stores and companies--they didn't go anywhere, no degree at all and people are flocking to them! The main thing is to get the people to trust you, to assure them that you'll take care of them--and then, they will not care where you graduated from. Heck, I worked as a receptionist in a medical office and people were asking ME which pills to take. The most important thing is to give people the best treatment. That's what I believe.
 
Originally posted by annushka

I actually had a shot at an MD/PhD program, but my father talked me out of it. Why go to school for 7 years, he said, when you can go to a DO school now? You're still going to be a physician and you're still gonna treat people.
I agree. However, as I understand it, MD/PhD's programs pay for your education. I have never heard of a person turning down an MD/PhD program for DO. More power to you.:)
 
Originally posted by Slickness
I agree. However, as I understand it, MD/PhD's programs pay for your education. I have never heard of a person turning down an MD/PhD program for DO. More power to you.:)

I would second that. I believe the Medical Scientist Training Programs are NIH funded. A person's passion for research however, is another thing.
 
Deuce-
Do you really think the AMA is going to admit that OMM is anything more than a placebo effect?

annushka-
You took the words out of my mouth in regards to trust! People forget that medicine is about the patients and providing health care, not the initials after your name or the school you went to.
 
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