Why did you choose DO school?

[ganglion]

Originally posted by MsEmerica
Deuce-
Do you really think the AMA is going to admit that OMM is anything more than a placebo effect?

Emerica,

Just my .02

I believe that like anything there simply needs to be more body of research to support the claims made concerning the efficacy of OMT in particular cases. If you do have substantial research to support it eventually the scientific/medical community must accept it. Rest assured there will be attempts to disprove claims and if it can stand the test of scrutiny then there will be no issues with accepting OMT.

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[unk_fxn]

Originally posted by MsEmerica
Deuce-
Do you really think the AMA is going to admit that OMM is anything more than a placebo effect?

This kind of ignorance that propagates the myth that big evil AMA is out to get us is the real problem.

 

[What the pho]

Do you guys know anything about research? Ever heard of case control studies, cohort studies, odds ratio, p-values, or clinical trials? It is not just the big bad AMA you know, there is this thing called the scientific method, and controled exp. ever try that w/OMM.

 

[smgilles]

Originally posted by What the pho
Do you guys know anything about research? Ever heard of case control studies, cohort studies, odds ratio, p-values, or clinical trials? It is not just the big bad AMA you know, there is this thing called the scientific method, and controled exp. ever try that w/OMM.

It's sad but I would have to agree w/pho on this one and I am a DO student, but I also have a MS in Epidemiology which explains maybe why I am more reseach oriented. I would just like to see an R-value correlation or some statistical signifance to even one OMM therapy. I would even settle for a p-value of .20!

I often feel like I am being brain washed more than anything w/the OMM we are taught.

 

[Skialta]

Deuce, I kind of agree with you. I am a PT and our field has pretty much the same problem as OMM for the DOs, there is just not a lot of hard research to back up physical therapy treatments. I choose to go MD more because I wanted to go into surgery and felt my chances would be better. I know a few DOs and they say they hardly ever use OMM. I would like to see more hard research done on that whole area of medicine/rehab. I think we will find in the future that insurance companies are not going to pay for treatments that we can't back up with real science. Truthfully can you blame them. Just my 2 cents.

 

[EUROdocMOM]

Wow, do I get excited when people start talking about P values!!!
more...please...MORE (I knew size mattered)

 

[kpax18]

the revival of a dead and beaten thread

 

[Blue_guitar9]

My 2cents. The problem with OMM & PT is that its difficult, if not impossible, to create a control group. In pharmaceutical research you can do a double blind study, give a patient a placebo, no ones the wiser, and see what happens. How do you give fake OMM? do it wrong? then the Dr. knows and it isnt double blind anymore and all the faults that entails. Also, whos to say that doing it wrong isnt eliciting some affects beneficial or negative.

So I guess the way its gone about ask the pt if he feels better and if he consistently says yes, we keep doing it, i dont see the problem with that. I bet youre saying well this is not evidenced based medicine, and thats...well, just bad medicine (no pun intended). but the fact is the majority of medicine is not evidenced based. take anti-anginals for example the majority of them ar not evidenced based. Are you going to refuse a drug that you've seen work every time to a pt. in pain just so you can can create a control group and get published, I hope not.

 

[Skialta]

I really am not ripping OMM or PT for that matter, I know there are things I do that work that are not necessarily evidence based. Now, whether or not those are due to placebo effect or are really true remains difficult to judge. I personally think there is a large amount of psychological influence in how a person responds to a clinician, and to your treatment. If a patient has your confidence and believes in your treatment or rational for treatment you are much more likely to be successful. I am willing to bet that to a large degree things like OMM and manual PT/PT in general depend to a large degree on the clinician him/herself and not on the techniques as much. There are definitely treatments/mobilization that work without a doubt, I am speaking more to obscure problems like low back pain.

 

[BACMEDIC]

If getting an MD is so much better, then why do DOs get MD residencies?

I know of a new DO who just landed a competitive residency at Dartmouth. Hmmmmm?I wonder just how many MDs fell by the wayside by him getting that seat? I wonder what those new MDs think of their degree versus a DO degree. Can you hear them ? ?what, I lost to a DO ? impossible!!? Perhaps they now realize that medicine is medicine ? how well you do in your program is the bottom line.

It?s like the MCAT, after you get into medical school, no one cares what you got on that beast. Once you graduate medical school (DO or MD), it?s the boards that count. Whether a DO takes the USMLE and beats the MD, or the program accepts COMLEX, how well each of us knows and applies our craft is what counts ? with few exceptions.

 

[Blue_guitar9]

This can be constructive if we let it, or we can allow it to spiral down in flames to the usual md/do thing...which im sure it ultimatley will, i mean who are we fooling.

But before it does i wouldlike to adress Skialta who i think makes a valid point. I agree that some of omm might be just placebo effect, however i dont think that its the fear that omm is not really doing anything that keeps DOs from preduing literature on it. It's the inability to test that theory (see previous post). So what if some of omm is placebo? everybody knocks placebo's but if i take one and it makes me feel better, damn straight im going back for more. Placebo effect is a measurable quantity so here's a thought question for you, even if an OMM technigue a is placebo effect, should you countinue to use it if you are getting positive results? I would.

P.S.- the low back pain example you give is not a good one, there is research done saying OMM does work in reducing back pain. I'm not sure what the link is but ive seen it on the forum before.

 

[What the pho]

Originally posted by Blue_guitar9
So what if some of omm is placebo? everybody knocks placebo's but if i take one and it makes me feel better, damn straight im going back for more. Placebo effect is a measurable quantity so here's a thought question for you, even if an OMM technigue a is placebo effect, should you countinue to use it if you are getting positive results? I would.

In the old days there was this thing called snake oil, and it seemed to work for almost about everything. Doesn't make it right to sell and bill for medically. Also go to the thoughts about Chiropartic thread, the same criticism also applys to OMM.

 

[Blue_guitar9]

If snake oil gets results for whatever reason,even placebo and is safe, why not?

 

[Skialta]

I agree with you blue, this is not a DO vs MD thing. That whole argument is just stupid. Who ever said that a DO could'nt get a competitive residency? Look, regardless what your personal opinion of DO or MD is, there is a bias, just look at this thread. The bias I refer to is the one that involves current physicians, do we really need to bash our own profession because in the end we are all physicians being paid under the same insurance system. What real advantage is there for bashing DO or MD? In ten years when your working with someone with an MD or DO it is not going to make one ounce of difference, it will be what kind of person and what kind of clinician they are that matters. Let's be smart and put it behind us.

The issue about OMM and any other therapy, and that includes any theraputic treatment MD, DO, PT, or Chiropractic should have some hard evidence behind it. All you have to do is read old medical textbooks for examples, leaches at one time were an acceptable treatment for pneumonia etc. Manual therapy/mobilization/manipulation are all great tools to have in your bag of tricks. What I am really saying is think about your treatments and whether or not they are evidence based or whether you are doing it because it was the established treatment when you were in school.

I can only really talk about my own point of view as a PT. Believe me there is a major push by the APTA (American Physical Therapy Association) to pursue research and to practice evidence based medicine/rehab. Insurance companies are going to look at treatments and outcomes and then decide whether or not to pay for them, surgery, rehab whatever. Really, we all have a responsibility to practice evidence based medicine. If there is no research in an area you practice and are interested in then get involved and help prove your case. You will not only help validate your treatment, it strengthens what we do.

 

[haujun]

If this Md vs DO is stupid why you guys keep on replying to the dead and old discussion??? Only your insecurities will bring back life into the topic. You insecure DO.....

 

[Heeed!]

haujun,

The only thing that brought this back to life is your stupid post, which brings it back to the top of the list (7 pages now). Just when we all thought this particular forum would finally disappear, you single-handedly brought it back to the forefront. Amazing work! Although, there have been many before you, I can't sit by and not say anything this time. With any luck, intelligent medical students everywhere will let my post be the nail in the coffin for this issue.

For the person who reads this when it's at the very bottom of the pile, if you find it too tempting to resist and post something so it shoots back to the top, I'll bet we could get almost 69 pages of dumb comments before we're all through. Hopefully, all of us aren't that pathetic. Please, do your very best to fight the temptation. Can't we "just say no" to replying to this forum anymore?

 

[kpax18]

Originally posted by haujun
If this Md vs DO is stupid why you guys keep on replying to the dead and old discussion??? Only your insecurities will bring back life into the topic. You insecure DO.....

troll alert

 

[brewdo]

This comment applies to both future/current MDs and DOs. I have been an EMT on an ambulance for 5 years now, and I have shadowed physicians (DOs and MDs) from numerous specialities, as well as other countries. Bickering about which type of discipline one chooses is absolutely ridiculous. I have seen DOs and MDs save lives, and I have seen MDs and DOs make mistakes that end lives. What ever path you choose depends on your sincerity concerning medicine. Prestige, money, and the chance to redeem yourself because of your low self-esteem should not be criteria to choose a medical career. I don't care if you are a doctor from Harvard or Saba, you will decide what type of physician you will become. Future MDs, get off your condescending pedestal and focus on how uplift and support your fellow DO physicians. You will be working with these people, and furthermore whatever prestigious school you attend, or whatever residency you land does not make you a good physician. Don't forget that our careers are about people, not patting ourselves on the back. Future DOs, stop showing insecurity about your profession. You will be physicians, case closed. Prove nothing to anyone, except yourself, and strive to become the best physician you can possibly be and I guarantee that opportunities will follow. Let us all stop this immature "I am better than you" "No you're not" act. It is time to grow up, peoples lives will depend on it.

 

[rotatores]

Yes Haujun is a troll...please do not reply to this kid.

 

[chiroortho]

I'm a DC, in practice for 20 years, stumbled upon this forum, found it to be interesting and registered.

I have a question for the members of this forum that is meant to be sincere, in no way sarcastic or pejorative...

Why do any of you choose to be a DO? One of my best friends is a DO, B/C in neurology, have referred him countless patients, and he's an outstanding physician...his dad was also a DO, and out of respect for his dad he became a DO. But he does not practice manipulation of any kind. A DO patient of mine is an anesthesiologist, MD-residency trained, put in a central line on my own dad when he had CBG (at my request)...but comes to me for manipulative therapy for at least 10 years now, PRN.

So, if you have no intention of performing the "not something different, something more" approach to MDs, why become a DO?

I was accepted to medical (MD) school and chiropractic school...chose DC school...if you're interested I'll let you know my thoughts...but I'm sincerely interested in your thoughts.

Respectfully...chiroortho

 

[Yosh]

Just going off your line...what influenced your decision to become a chiro instead of a medical doctor?

 

[chiroortho]

I don't think I knew what a DO was back then...but now I think DOs are terrific physicians, based on my encounters with them.

One thing I have noticed is that some DOs are still a little bit sensitive about the MD/DO thing, and you know what I mean. My encouragement to you would be to accept the fact that you are a member of a relatively young profession, but you've done a great job in advancing yourselves professionally...and that because of turf wars you've rightfully got a bad taste in your mouth (it wasn't all that long ago that the AMA was selling MDs to DOs)...

Don't spend too much time in forums, because it can make you more than a little angry to read some of the posts...

Just keep working to become the best physician you can be, serve your patients well, and don't worry about what some people might think. You're not going to change their minds anyway.

Thus endeth the sermon.

 

[chiroortho]

Originally posted by Yosh
Just going off your line...what influenced your decision to become a chiro instead of a medical doctor?

Yosh,

I'm sorry, I was so busy pontificating that I didn't answer your question...

I chose DC over MD because one of my good friends was going to DC school, I had met a few DCs that were very supportive, and I kind of got fired up about it myself. No slam against MDs. It was pretty much that simple.

I imagine that you might be wondering if I still think I did the right thing...99% of the time I think yes, 1% of the time I think "What if..."

One of my patients is an MD radiologist at the local medical center, and he was trying to get me to sell Amway. Very sad. He's up all night reading films, I'm making a better living than I deserve, no call, no all-nighters, less than $5000/year for liability insurance; that's the other 99%.

 

[Billy33]

Radiology, not a specialty i'd ever want to do. I know it's different from hospital to hospital, but the one i volunteer at now, the rads sit in a reading room, by themself, all day long, and write reports to give to the ER docs. No patient contact whatsoever. just seems like an extremely boring job, but that's just me. I'm sure there are some that are different, but from what i see everyday, i would't be too thrilled to change professions if that's what i was comparing it too. How about compared to a cardiologist? would the emotional rewards outweigh the other 99%? just curious

 

[chiroortho]

Billy,

Hard to say because I'm not a cardiologist...I'm sure that's rewarding too, but compared to what I do it's hard to say. Because my field involves lots of interaction with patients, the intangible reward factor is high in that regard. Tangibles aren't bad either.

I've been in practice 20 years, work 4 mornings a week, spend a lot of time with my wife and kids...but that's what I like to do.

I think some folks like the long hours, fast pace, etc. More power to them.

ChiroOrtho

 

[Freeeedom!]

Oh come now!!
You know as well as I, that a DC making >80k is a rarity today!
Don't try to sell the "easy living" of chiropractic to the medical students. The majority of DC's graduating today work for peanuts for years and are stuck advertising...or dying. This is the absolute truth.
While you sound intelligent and successful, the same cannot be said for the new chiropractic graduates. Numbers dwindling, graduates considerably more bitter. Go to www.chiroweb.com and find out!

I suppose you could find a DPM telling their success stories...but that is a rarity today as well.

Hey I am not a DC...I am a VERY happy DO who calls it like he sees it.

 

[Billy33]

may not be as easy to make as much money/year but success can be measured in a lot more ways than what you bring home every week. i'm sure there are DO's (and MD's) out there that work 80 hours a week (and not residents either) but have no family life to go home to. but they drive the nicest cars money can buy! sounds like chiro is doing something right if you ask me. remember, not all physicians make over $80 G's either.

 

[chiroortho]

Oh come now!!
You know as well as I, that a DC making >80k is a rarity today!
Don't try to sell the "easy living" of chiropractic to the medical students. The majority of DC's graduating today work for peanuts for years and are stuck advertising...or dying. This is the absolute truth.
While you sound intelligent and successful, the same cannot be said for the new chiropractic graduates. Numbers dwindling, graduates considerably more bitter. Go to www.chiroweb.com and find out!

I suppose you could find a DPM telling their success stories...but that is a rarity today as well.

Hey I am not a DC...I am a VERY happy DO who calls it like he sees it.

Dr. F,

I think you are partially correct. In my area, DCs in practice less than five years or so are, in general, probably making less than $80K.

But I pay my associate about $80K for his 4.5 day workweek, plus prof liability, health, CE and other fees; and others in my circle of colleagues make CONSIDERABLY more than that...I think it would be in poor taste to comment further.

You are very correct, however, to point out that the chiro forums are utterly depressing in all respects, no doubt about that. That's why, as I've stated previously, that I'm glad that I'm not a new guy. I think the new doctors, in whatever field, are facing much more financial difficulties than we faced, unfortunately.

Sincerely,

ChiroOrtho

 

[Freeeedom!]

My point being, the chiropractic profession is in serious trouble...serious trouble. Osteopathic Medicine is forging forward and expanding while chiropractic is being squeezed by both PT and DO/MD's. What does the future hold for professions limited by scope?? The truth is, chiropractic is fighting for its life and many young DC's either quit the profession all together or must survive by what many consider unethical practice.

Remember guys, many DC's graduate with 100k of debt and may work for 10 years before making the 70-80k mark. I think it could be said that when you have fee- for- service working a >40 hour week is a plus...not a minus. So don't fall for the "I work 4 days a week" junk. Most EM docs work 4 days a week, get benefits and still bring in >200k.

Ok I feel like I am picking a fight...I don't mean to. I am backing off.

 

[chiroortho]

Dr. F,

I don't take it that you're picking a fight, that's what these forums are for...none of your comments are personal...

Much of your post is correct...and I can only guess that it may get worse before it gets better for my DC colleagues. But there will always be those DCs that make a lot of money, and those that don't...as to the unethical part, I can only speak for myself.

You're in EM training, great...but what about your colleagues that went to DO school altruistically, to be FPs...from what I can tell on this forum, they won't be able to pay their bills without living with their parents.

Just something to consider.

ChiroOrtho