Why do med schools expect professionalism from premeds when they do things like this...

[HopeP]

Never underestimate the lengths parents will go to when their own image as a successful parent is wrapped so tightly to the success of their child...

One of the many reasons I am happy to no longer be a teacher.

can't disagree with that, how often a successful professional turns out to be unsuccessful parent !

What you are missing is the backstory behind the current process. An applicant sued a school a few years ago, and even though the applicant lost, it caused AAMC to worry about future litigation.

In response, it entirely removed itself from the process, other than facilitating the design of a system whose enforcement is entirely up to the schools. All decisions are also in the hands of the schools.

Can you imagine if Dr. Fauci does same (remove from process) and leaves WH (AAMC) to handle pandemic and states (schools) are independent decision makers.

Any solution that involves AAMC being involved in any way, other than as a conduit for information, is therefore a non-starter. AAMC will not impose rules, will not automatically trigger anything, and will not enforce anything. Period. They are fine with the current system, because they are responsible for nothing (other than administering the MCAT and verifying transcripts) and can therefore not be sued for adverse decisions, rude e-mails, etc.

Yes VITA is introduced.

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[ScrubswithnoSleeves]

What you are missing is the backstory behind the current process. An applicant sued a school a few years ago, and even though the applicant lost, it caused AAMC to worry about future litigation.

In response, it entirely removed itself from the process, other than facilitating the design of a system whose enforcement is entirely up to the schools. All decisions are also in the hands of the schools.

Any solution that involves AAMC being involved in any way, other than as a conduit for information, is therefore a non-starter. AAMC will not impose rules, will not automatically trigger anything, and will not enforce anything. Period. They are fine with the current system, because they are responsible for nothing (other than administering the MCAT and verifying transcripts) and can therefore not be sued for adverse decisions, rude e-mails, etc.

Ahhh good to know. Then both could still be through AMCAS but instead of any enforcement, AMCAS could notify all of the other schools to which the applicant is applying to that they have sent a LOI or CTE.

 

[KnightDoc]

Ahhh good to know. Then both could still be through AMCAS but instead of any enforcement, AMCAS could notify all of the other schools to which the applicant is applying to that they have sent a LOI or CTE.

They already do this with CTE. Some schools do pull people from WLs when they see this while others do not. LOI is not an official thing, nor is it likely to become one.

 

[KnightDoc]

can't disagree with that, how often a successful professional turns out to be unsuccessful parent !

Can you imagine if Dr. Fauci does same and leaves WH for pandemic handling.

Yes VITA is introduced.

Yes, VITA was introduced. Same exact thing. AAMC is a conduit for information. It does not score it or tell schools whether, or how, to use it. Exactly what I am talking about. AAMC makes it available, and schools decide whether or not to play ball.

 

[Rogue42]

Look, this whole thread got started over, "Reminder, medical schools don't care about you." Granted, the OP did add an example which depending on how one wants to look at it can be seen both ways, I don't think was necessarily the point trying to be made.

I think we can all agree that the process of getting into medical school DOES seem like medical schools do not care about people. They expect applicants to be rather perfect. Perfect grammar, perfect sentences (then you get to medical school and you can't even get a complete thought out of a professor sometimes in an email??), perfect thoughts, perfect thought processes, near perfect GPAs, flawless ECs, MCATs to match some subjective standard. Then to top that off, "hey, pay for our secondary because we want to see three more perfectly written thought out responses because the first application isn't enough THEN you might have the privilege of an interview." Not to mention schools that secondaries are nothing more than actually just paying for a secondary. You get to interview day and sometimes there are 60 people. How can any applicant be properly evaluated on a day where there are 60 others. Then, you wait. (don't get me started on how numbers get more competitive because it seems that schools care more about looking good than they do about how they treat people). Applicants just spent months nay years preparing for this, thousands of dollars in an undergraduate education that isn't wholly necessary, thousands on the application fees, and have to be NEAR perfect minus maybe one or two flaws. Applicants are supposed to have compassion, empathy, understanding, patience, be 100% professional, and have so much more in their personality...

...meanwhile medical schools get to say nothing, give no notice, ask for more money in an acceptance, and can get away with what Mayo did (which happened before but they're the most recent and handled it so poorly), and people defend it because "you signed up for it, you knew this is how it went, applicants are a dime a dozen," and while all that is true, it doesn't make the process SEEM like schools truly care about you as an individual that they might want in their class. Add in that it feels unprofessional for schools to ASK as much as they do out of applicants, just to hit him with the kind of email that was displayed here. I can't imagine typing an email like that and sending it to one of my professors an expecting NOT to get written up to my professionalism and ethics board.

All I'm saying is, the process isn't perfect, but applicants wanting complete transparency and communication seems like the bare minimum schools should provide.

 

[KnightDoc]

Look, this whole thread got started over, "Reminder, medical schools don't care about you." Granted, the OP did add an example which depending on how one wants to look at it can be seen both ways, I don't think was necessarily the point trying to be made.

I think we can all agree that the process of getting into medical school DOES seem like medical schools do not care about people. They expect applicants to be rather perfect. Perfect grammar, perfect sentences (then you get to medical school and you can't even get a complete thought out of a professor sometimes in an email??), perfect thoughts, perfect thought processes, near perfect GPAs, flawless ECs, MCATs to match some subjective standard. Then to top that off, "hey, pay for our secondary because we want to see three more perfectly written thought out responses because the first application isn't enough THEN you might have the privilege of an interview." Not to mention schools that secondaries are nothing more than actually just paying for a secondary. You get to interview day and sometimes there are 60 people. How can any applicant be properly evaluated on a day where there are 60 others. Then, you wait. (don't get me started on how numbers get more competitive because it seems that schools care more about looking good than they do about how they treat people). Applicants just spent months nay years preparing for this, thousands of dollars in an undergraduate education that isn't wholly necessary, thousands on the application fees, and have to be NEAR perfect minus maybe one or two flaws. Applicants are supposed to have compassion, empathy, understanding, patience, be 100% professional, and have so much more in their personality...

...meanwhile medical schools get to say nothing, give no notice, ask for more money in an acceptance, and can get away with what Mayo did (which happened before but they're the most recent and handled it so poorly), and people defend it because "you signed up for it, you knew this is how it went, applicants are a dime a dozen," and while all that is true, it doesn't make the process SEEM like schools truly care about you as an individual that they might want in their class. Add in that it feels unprofessional for schools to ASK as much as they do out of applicants, just to hit him with the kind of email that was displayed here. I can't imagine typing an email like that and sending it to one of my professors an expecting NOT to get written up to my professionalism and ethics board.

All I'm saying is, the process isn't perfect, but applicants wanting complete transparency and communication seems like the bare minimum schools should provide.

In a perfect world, where both sides have equal power, you are 100% correct. Unfortunately, the world we live in is not perfect. Over 50,000 people each year eagerly compete for around 20,000 spots, and the process you describe is the result. Don't like it, or think it is fair, or acceptable? Plenty of fields are less competitive to enter, and their professional schools are more accommodating, respectful, eager to please, etc. as a result.

Your points are all valid, but so what? The supply/demand imbalance allows schools to get away with everything that annoys you, and more. Some schools take full advantage, others not so much. It's the price we pay to play.

It is not written in stone that any of us HAS to attend medical school. Given the situation, don't kid yourself -- there literally is NO bare minimum schools have to provide, and the sometimes abrasive adcoms who don't sugarcoat the truth for us and advise that we are rejected until informed otherwise, that the schools owe us NOTHING, and that we are nothing but inputs into their MD making machine are, unfortunately, spot on, no matter how unpleasant that truth is to hear.

 

[ScrubswithnoSleeves]

Look, this whole thread got started over, "Reminder, medical schools don't care about you." Granted, the OP did add an example which depending on how one wants to look at it can be seen both ways, I don't think was necessarily the point trying to be made.

I think we can all agree that the process of getting into medical school DOES seem like medical schools do not care about people. They expect applicants to be rather perfect. Perfect grammar, perfect sentences (then you get to medical school and you can't even get a complete thought out of a professor sometimes in an email??), perfect thoughts, perfect thought processes, near perfect GPAs, flawless ECs, MCATs to match some subjective standard. Then to top that off, "hey, pay for our secondary because we want to see three more perfectly written thought out responses because the first application isn't enough THEN you might have the privilege of an interview." Not to mention schools that secondaries are nothing more than actually just paying for a secondary. You get to interview day and sometimes there are 60 people. How can any applicant be properly evaluated on a day where there are 60 others. Then, you wait. (don't get me started on how numbers get more competitive because it seems that schools care more about looking good than they do about how they treat people). Applicants just spent months nay years preparing for this, thousands of dollars in an undergraduate education that isn't wholly necessary, thousands on the application fees, and have to be NEAR perfect minus maybe one or two flaws. Applicants are supposed to have compassion, empathy, understanding, patience, be 100% professional, and have so much more in their personality...

...meanwhile medical schools get to say nothing, give no notice, ask for more money in an acceptance, and can get away with what Mayo did (which happened before but they're the most recent and handled it so poorly), and people defend it because "you signed up for it, you knew this is how it went, applicants are a dime a dozen," and while all that is true, it doesn't make the process SEEM like schools truly care about you as an individual that they might want in their class. Add in that it feels unprofessional for schools to ASK as much as they do out of applicants, just to hit him with the kind of email that was displayed here. I can't imagine typing an email like that and sending it to one of my professors an expecting NOT to get written up to my professionalism and ethics board.

All I'm saying is, the process isn't perfect, but applicants wanting complete transparency and communication seems like the bare minimum schools should provide.

Yes but the point of this further discussion is to investigate ways that might make transparency possible rather than just complaining that it doesn't exist.

This thread asked and answered a few big questions:

Why are schools NOT transparent? Because they don't have the information to be transparent with most of the time.

Why not? Because applicants can change schools on a dime and thus they don't know who is in their class for certain until white coat.

Well why don't they just tell applicants that? Because they get an insane response from immature applicants and their parents that halts the process and makes trying to do a courteous yet unobligated deed undoable.

 

[ScrubswithnoSleeves]

I guess I just don't read that phrasing as demeaning. It assumes that people probably already know this, which to me is an attempt to acknowledge the reality of the situation and not pretend like this is likely to be news to anyone getting it.

Similarly, I don't see the timing as an issue. This is the point at which they're able to send out this message. To me, assuming that the school needs to educate the applicants with respect to the reality of the application process and when things will be finalized would be demeaning and patronizing towards the applicants. The pool is full when it is full- until then, anything is a possibility (even if improbable).

Again, I think this is because you read it through an informed lens. For those who know nothing of what adcoms do behind closed doors, we read it as @LizzyM put it:

Given that we've ghosted you, and because we know that you aren't stupid, it is likely that it has dawned on you that we aren't that into you... or at least not into you enough to want a 4 year relationship. So here's an email to make it official.

Just so you know what you are missing (white coat ceremony!), and when (july 23), the applicants we did choose have arrived and there is no room for you.

Thank you for being patient. Too bad there is no room for you to be any where near our patients.

We're glad you wanted us enough to stay on the waitlist forever. Good luck, not that you'll need it! (Or maybe you do.)

In response to your second comment about the timing. Yes, but again:
1) applicants assume adcoms have that info earlier. (and the rational ones are unsympathetic because they don't understand)
2) would you not agree that the pool should be and could be full earlier given some adjustments to the application process? (and thus schools could communicate earlier and thereby applicants could make informed decisions about their futures sooner). I think it is pretty insane that a school can steal an applicant that has already matriculated.

 

[Med Ed]

@Med Ed @eigen It is being argued that
1. The phrasing of the letter is demeaning, particularly the first paragraph (demeaning = unprofessional). And that it is pretty easy to write a less demeaning letter

Disagree. Demeaning would be implying that an offer was not be made because the applicant was too stupid and/or lazy to deserve one.

The start of the message is grammatically awkward (and it's currently an article of faith that it is even genuine), but there is a difference between words that unpleasant versus unprofessional.

2. The timing is unprofessional (at this point in the cycle, why send anything at all?).

So that unsuccessful applicants unequivocally know their status, in some instances can perhaps find some necessary closure for the cycle?

 

[Med Ed]

Are you suggesting that letter is a thoughtful, respectful, courteous draft? If not, how that translates as professional behavior?

Hmmm, "we could not offer you a place in our first year class," "unfortunately we cannot accommodate any more students," "we are grateful to you for so patiently waiting on our alternate list and we regret that we could not have more favorable news for you," "and wish you success with your plans for the future."

 

[Rogue42]

In a perfect world, where both sides have equal power, you are 100% correct. Unfortunately, the world we live in is not perfect. Over 50,000 people each year eagerly compete for around 20,000 spots, and the process you describe is the result. Don't like it, or think it is fair, or acceptable? Plenty of fields are less competitive to enter, and their professional schools are more accommodating, respectful, eager to please, etc. as a result.

Your points are all valid, but so what? The supply/demand imbalance allows schools to get away with everything that annoys you, and more. Some schools take full advantage, others not so much. It's the price we pay to play.

It is not written in stone that any of us HAS to attend medical school. Given the situation, don't kid yourself -- there literally is NO bare minimum schools have to provide, and the sometimes abrasive adcoms who don't sugarcoat the truth for us and advise that we are rejected until informed otherwise, that the schools owe us NOTHING, and that we are nothing but inputs into their MD making machine are, unfortunately, spot on, no matter how unpleasant that truth is to hear.

I already successfully played the game, fam. Doesn't mean that I can't objectively look at the game, and say it is poorly designed because it is. Imagine using what you just said against a patient. You see so many patients, they all want to see you. You're one of the best in the region. Because of this, there is no bare minimum of care you have to provide. I mean sure some people will get mad, but if you don't like it there are other doctors?

Bro. I don't care what the power balance is, it doesn't make it right, and it doesn't make it fair. But as physicians and future leaders, our jobs is literally to do better. Not just continue because that's how its always been.

Yes but the point of this further discussion is to investigate ways that might make transparency possible rather than just complaining that it doesn't exist.

This thread asked and answered a few big questions:

Why are schools NOT transparent? Because they don't have the information to be transparent with most of the time.

Why not? Because applicants can change schools on a dime and thus they don't know who is in their class for certain until white coat.

Well why don't they just tell applicants that? Because they get an insane response from immature applicants and their parents that halts the process and makes trying to do a courteous yet unobligated deed undoable.

Pre-med? Cool, then you literally have no idea what resources schools have to do better or worse.

Simply, schools have all of the ability in the world to be transparent. EVEN if that transparency is, "Hey, we have not had room to accept you yet, but you are still being evaluated." Like once a month instead of waiting 6 months. That my friend is a simple, mass, blind copy email to all WL applicants. That is EASY.
Why don't they tell applicants what they don't have the information to make decisions. Nah, that is not exactly what I mean by transparent in this situation because I agree that may be true. Again, simply referencing that schools can send update, nice emails, at the end of each month so applicants don't feel forgotten about. They could also easily cut their WLs down more than likely - granted this part is speculation.

I am sorry that I EXPECT better from the very institutions that expect the most of us while the institution is equally made up of community leaders.

 

[ScrubswithnoSleeves]

I already successfully played the game, fam. Doesn't mean that I can't objectively look at the game, and say it is poorly designed because it is. Imagine using what you just said against a patient. You see so many patients, they all want to see you. You're one of the best in the region. Because of this, there is no bare minimum of care you have to provide. I mean sure some people will get mad, but if you don't like it there are other doctors?

Bro. I don't care what the power balance is, it doesn't make it right, and it doesn't make it fair. But as physicians and future leaders, our jobs is literally to do better. Not just continue because that's how its always been.

Pre-med? Cool, then you literally have no idea what resources schools have to do better or worse.

Simply, schools have all of the ability in the world to be transparent. EVEN if that transparency is, "Hey, we have not had room to accept you yet, but you are still being evaluated." Like once a month instead of waiting 6 months. That my friend is a simple, mass, blind copy email to all WL applicants. That is EASY.
Why don't they tell applicants what they don't have the information to make decisions. Nah, that is not exactly what I mean by transparent in this situation because I agree that may be true. Again, simply referencing that schools can send update, nice emails, at the end of each month so applicants don't feel forgotten about. They could also easily cut their WLs down more than likely - granted this part is speculation.

I am sorry that I EXPECT better from the very institutions that expect the most of us while the institution is equally made up of community leaders.

So you're arguing that the OP email is cool as long as they prefaced it with 6 months of this:

"Hey, we have not had room to accept you yet, but you are still being evaluated." Like once a month instead of waiting 6 months. That my friend is a simple, mass, blind copy email to all WL applicants.

Or are you trying to say that they have the ability to say when you are no longer being evaluated? Clearly, they don't have that knowledge/ability, so I don't really understand your argument.

 

[KnightDoc]

I already successfully played the game, fam. Doesn't mean that I can't objectively look at the game, and say it is poorly designed because it is. Imagine using what you just said against a patient. You see so many patients, they all want to see you. You're one of the best in the region. Because of this, there is no bare minimum of care you have to provide. I mean sure some people will get mad, but if you don't like it there are other doctors?

Bro. I don't care what the power balance is, it doesn't make it right, and it doesn't make it fair. But as physicians and future leaders, our jobs is literally to do better. Not just continue because that's how its always been.

Pre-med? Cool, then you literally have no idea what resources schools have to do better or worse.

Simply, schools have all of the ability in the world to be transparent. EVEN if that transparency is, "Hey, we have not had room to accept you yet, but you are still being evaluated." Like once a month instead of waiting 6 months. That my friend is a simple, mass, blind copy email to all WL applicants. That is EASY.
Why don't they tell applicants what they don't have the information to make decisions. Nah, that is not exactly what I mean by transparent in this situation because I agree that may be true. Again, simply referencing that schools can send update, nice emails, at the end of each month so applicants don't feel forgotten about. They could also easily cut their WLs down more than likely - granted this part is speculation.

I am sorry that I EXPECT better from the very institutions that expect the most of us while the institution is equally made up of community leaders.

I totally agree with you. I'm just pointing out that it's not going to change as long as the supply/demand balance remains as it is. The game is actually very well designed FOR THE SCHOOLS. They each receive a large multiple of applications for each available seat, each and every year. It is unfair for applicants, they really don't care, and they have zero incentive to change. Now that you are an insider, go change it for us. Thank you in advance!

With respect to practicing physicians, of course there is a minimum standard of care. If it isn't met, being sued for malpractice is a very real possibility. On the other hand, if you're widely known as the one of the best in the region, and there is a long WL of people trying to become patients, then, yeah, your bedside manner can totally suck and it won't impact your practice one bit. Just like the e-mail in the OP isn't going to cause Rutgers RWJMS to have problems filling next year's class.

 

[Rogue42]

So you're arguing that the OP email is cool as long as they prefaced it with 6 months of this:



Or are you trying to say that they have the ability to say when you are no longer being evaluated? Clearly, they don't have that knowledge/ability, so I don't really understand your argument.

If you're not following along, then you are simply purposely trying not to.

No, I do not agree that the email that was sent to this applicant was neccesrily appropriate. Seemed like it lacked a little empathy to me. Further, I said six months because some students submit secondaries, and don't hear back for 6 months. To follow up on this, schools do know whether or not they are evaluating you. If you have submitted an application, if you make it past the screening, then you are being evaluated. This applies ESPECIALLY after an interview.

I think the email in reference would have been much better received if it had been better written and not been the only email a student received from them.

I totally agree with you. I'm just pointing out that it's not going to change as long as the supply/demand balance remains as it is. The game is actually very well designed FOR THE SCHOOLS. They each receive a large multiple of applications for each available seat, each and every year. It is unfair for applicants, they really don't care, and they have zero incentive to change. Now that you are an insider, go change it for us. Thank you in advance!

With respect to practicing physicians, of course there is a minimum standard of care. If it isn't met, being sued for malpractice is a very real possibility. On the other hand, if you're widely known as the one of the best in the region, and there is a long WL of people trying to become patients, then, yeah, your bedside manner can totally suck and it won't impact your practice one bit.

I didn't say it was going to change; my original reply was only explaining that I think from the outside-looking-in that the system seems not to care about the applicants, and that I believe it could easily be better.

You either agree with that or you don't. The rest really doesn't matter to me.

As for the analogy, I think you purposely missed the point. Physicians have a large power balance, there is 1 doctor for an extremely large population regardless of specialty, and if all practicing physicians operated the same way towards patients that most medical schools act towards applicants, there would have been a nation wide outcry like 50 years ago.

 

[HopeP]

Hmmm, "we could not offer you a place in our first year class," "unfortunately we cannot accommodate any more students," "we are grateful to you for so patiently waiting on our alternate list and we regret that we could not have more favorable news for you," "and wish you success with your plans for the future."

I wish personal statement and essays are as simple as those cherry picked statements.

 

[Med Ed]

I wish personal statement and essays are as simple as those cherry picked statements.

They can be if you hire the right person.

Still waiting for a clear explanation as to why the communication was unprofessional.

 

[ScrubswithnoSleeves]

To follow up on this, schools do know whether or not they are evaluating you. If you have submitted an application, if you make it past the screening, then you are being evaluated. This applies ESPECIALLY after an interview.

So I guess I followed your argument, it is just not a very good one.

Correct me if this misrepresents what you are saying:
Because schools are technically evaluating us from the time we submit a 2º until white coat ceremony, they should update us on the fact that that is still true every month for the entire cycle. (sounds like a waste of time to me)

While It does initially make sense to say that they should notify all of the applicants who submitted 2ºs that won't be receiving an interview, I would like to direct you to @gyngyn 's post:

When we give a heads up, we get a rash of (disgruntled) communication. It comes from the parents as well as the applicants. After a few cycles of early updates, the admissions staff begins asking to put off the notification so that they can work without being beaten up by angry parents. We've had parents show up in person. Campus security had to be called. You can see why the staff gets a bit gun-shy.

I also would like to note that almost every school tells you in their 2º invite when their II period ends.

 

[ScrubswithnoSleeves]

They can be if you hire the right person.

Still waiting for a clear explanation as to why the communication was unprofessional.

Because when reading this through the lens of an applicant, you see this:

Given that we've ghosted you, and because we know that you aren't stupid, it is likely that it has dawned on you that we aren't that into you... or at least not into you enough to want a 4 year relationship. So here's an email to make it official.

Just so you know what you are missing (white coat ceremony!), and when (july 23), the applicants we did choose have arrived and there is no room for you.

Thank you for being patient. Too bad there is no room for you to be any where near our patients.

We're glad you wanted us enough to stay on the waitlist forever. Good luck, not that you'll need it! (Or maybe you do.)

And, through that same lens, you don't understand why you're being told now rather than in May when the information was relevant.

 

[Med Ed]

Because when reading this through the lens of an applicant, you see this:

Again, unpleasant does not equal unprofessional. At worst I would call it inartful.

 

[ScrubswithnoSleeves]

Again, unpleasant does not equal unprofessional. At worst I would call it inartful.

I would argue its unintentionally inconsiderate of the uniformed lens of the applicant. And not understanding how your audience will receive what your saying is, in my opinion, unprofessional. Rudeness often remains unpleasant but it is still rude.

Regardless, there is no objective nor quantitative definition of professionalism.

 

[HopeP]

They can be if you hire the right person.

Still waiting for a clear explanation as to why the communication was unprofessional.

A SOM adcom/admission can't draft an appropriate letter, what an applicant should expect from its education? Agree, it is a seller market but that didn't grant a permission to deviate from standards being expected from applicants.
Would any Dr write that kind of letter to a terminally ill patient? ofc, not, so why would SOM do that?
First 2 paragraphs clearly doesn't meet professional standards for a medical school and those are even redundant. It looks like a high school drop out draft the letter. There are ample arguments have been made about inappropriate nature of letter/email, will leave to individuals to judge by their professional standards.

 

[ScrubswithnoSleeves]

A SOM adcom/admission can't draft an appropriate letter, what an applicant should expect from its education? Agree, it is a seller market but that didn't grant a permission to deviate from standards being expected from applicants.
Would any Dr write that kind of letter to a terminally ill patient? ofc, not, so why would SOM do that?
First 2 paragraphs clearly doesn't meet professional standards for a medical school and those are even redundant. It looks like a high school drop out draft the letter. There are ample arguments have been made about inappropriate nature of letter/email, will leave to individuals to judge by their professional standards.

did you just compare applicants to terminally ill patients lol

 

[KnightDoc]

If you're not following along, then you are simply purposely trying not to.

No, I do not agree that the email that was sent to this applicant was neccesrily appropriate. Seemed like it lacked a little empathy to me. Further, I said six months because some students submit secondaries, and don't hear back for 6 months. To follow up on this, schools do know whether or not they are evaluating you. If you have submitted an application, if you make it past the screening, then you are being evaluated. This applies ESPECIALLY after an interview.

I think the email in reference would have been much better received if it had been better written and not been the only email a student received from them.

I didn't say it was going to change; my original reply was only explaining that I think from the outside-looking-in that the system seems not to care about the applicants, and that I believe it could easily be better.

You either agree with that or you don't. The rest really doesn't matter to me.

As for the analogy, I think you purposely missed the point. Physicians have a large power balance, there is 1 doctor for an extremely large population regardless of specialty, and if all practicing physicians operated the same way towards patients that most medical schools act towards applicants, there would have been a nation wide outcry like 50 years ago.

Yes, I totally agree with that. We agree that it's totally unfair, could definitely be better, that the schools have disproportionate power, and that it's not going to change.

With respect to the analogy, I'm not sure what point you are trying to make. Some doctors are sweethearts, some are a-holes. Not sure what nationwide outcry you are looking for. Some areas have tons of doctors, and, unless the a-holes have super awesome reputations for excellent skills and outcomes, their waiting rooms aren't quite as full as some of their peers. Other areas have serious shortages. In those areas, like med school applicants, people might or might not complain, but there is no "nationwide outcry" about crappy bedside manner.

What are you referring to from 50 years ago?

ALL practicing physicians are not dicks, although some are and more could be if they wanted to be. Same with schools. Some are very transparent, others less so. Some ghost applicants, others are pretty good about communicating decisions.

What's your point? That if some doctors were a-holes (spoiler alert: they are) that there would be some sort of regulation to deal with it? Never happen. The closest we'll come (and I'm sure we're already there) is large corporations that employ many doctors using patient satisfaction surveys to partially determine compensation or even continued employment. Individual physicians operating their own practices will always be free to do what they want in this area, just like independent medical schools have the freedom to treat applicants however they wish.

Anyone who objects is free to apply elsewhere. Nothing's going to change while 50,000 applicants are chasing 20,000 seats. Doesn't make it right; just reflects reality.

 

[HopeP]

did you just compare applicants to terminally ill patients lol

Precisely the point, would it be called unprofessional or not?

 

[eigen]

Precisely the point, would it be called unprofessional or not?

I'm going to be honest here: if you think the empathy that someone needs for finding out they didn't get into medical school is on the same level as the empathy someone needs finding out about a terminal diagnosis, I think your perspective is really skewed and you need to take a step back.

 

[deleted688779]

I’ve been saying this since forever: unfortunately, they don’t care about you and neither should you care about them. It’s a cold business transaction. No hard feelings, just business. There is no mutual expectation of professionalism, they can expect you to be professional but you can’t expect that of them, because there is a power disparity in the market. We’re told to accept the process and allow the powers that be free reign.

I feel like too many premeds are under the impression that medical schools are somehow benevolent institutions, run by the most fair and caring people, and care about what’s best for students, opposed to the bottom line of the institution and the elites that fund it.

I’m not saying their actions are right not am I defending them. I’m just saying that’s how it is. So be aware, be angry, and take whatever advantages, shortcuts, loopholes, and low blows you can get...because they sure as heck will. Trust the process? Nope.

/rant

 

[HopeP]

I'm going to be honest here: if you think the empathy that someone needs for finding out they didn't get into medical school is on the same level as the empathy someone needs finding out about a terminal diagnosis, I think your perspective is really skewed and you need to take a step back.

I know that was provocative thought and it is unprofessional. Applicants and Patients are not same, patients need empathy and applicants deserve respect and guidance.

 

[eigen]

I know that was provocative thought and it is unprofessional. Applicants and Patients are not same, patients needs empathy and applicants deserve respect and guidance.

I'd argue that medical schools aren't the ones responsible with providing applicants with guidance. Medical schools are responsible for their students, trainees, faculty and staff.

If an applicant is not getting good guidance, that's either on their undergraduate school for not providing the resources or them for not taking advantage of the information that's out there. Neither of those lie in the domain of the medical school.

Similarly, nothing about the initial email was disrespectful. It provided an acknowledgement that most applicants were likely unofficially aware of their status, and provided a final status update as soon as was feasible.

I see lots of requests for "regular updates", but I'm not sure what the purpose of those is. None of them tell you anything meaningful. The only thing anyone applying to medical school wants to hear is whether they're accepted or not. Until you're either accepted or rejected, you're likely under consideration. Telling you every month that no decision has been made isn't as helpful as you might think. Put together your best application, and move on. You either get accepted or you don't, and nothing you do in the interim will change that.

 

[Rogue42]

So I guess I followed your argument, it is just not a very good one.

Correct me if this misrepresents what you are saying:
Because schools are technically evaluating us from the time we submit a 2º until white coat ceremony, they should update us on the fact that that is still true every month for the entire cycle. (sounds like a waste of time to me)

While It does initially make sense to say that they should notify all of the applicants who submitted 2ºs that won't be receiving an interview, I would like to direct you to @gyngyn 's post:



I also would like to note that almost every school tells you in their 2º invite when their II period ends.

I do not think it is a waste as time as it is EASY to do, and for some people, it shows some sort of empathy towards to applicant. Period. I am not saying that applicants need to be told they may not receive an interview. But, applicants shouldn't be ghosted from a school for 6 months before hearing that they got an interview, or been waitlisted, or rejected. There should be some mass email that simply says, "Hey, you're still being evaluated." Again, this is bare minimum, and easy. As for her comment, while those things may happen, it isn't the norm., and a couple of being pitching that big of a fit helps the school remove applicants more than anything.

Either way, we can agree to disagree.

Yes, I totally agree with that. We agree that it's totally unfair, could definitely be better, that the schools have disproportionate power, and that it's not going to change.

With respect to the analogy, I'm not sure what point you are trying to make. Some doctors are sweethearts, some are a-holes. Not sure what nationwide outcry you are looking for. Some areas have tons of doctors, and, unless the a-holes have super awesome reputations for excellent skills and outcomes, their waiting rooms aren't quite as full as some of their peers. Other areas have serious shortages. In those areas, like med school applicants, people might or might not complain, but there is no "nationwide outcry" about crappy bedside manner.

What are you referring to from 50 years ago?

ALL practicing physicians are not dicks, although some are and more could be if they wanted to be. Same with schools. Some are very transparent, others less so. Some ghost applicants, others are pretty good about communicating decisions.

What's your point? That if some doctors were a-holes (spoiler alert: they are) that there would be some sort of regulation to deal with it? Never happen. The closest we'll come (and I'm sure we're already there) is large corporations that employ many doctors using patient satisfaction surveys to partially determine compensation or even continued employment. Individual physicians operating their own practices will always be free to do what they want in this area, just like independent medical schools have the freedom to treat applicants however they wish.

Anyone who objects is free to apply elsewhere. Nothing's going to change while 50,000 applicants are chasing 20,000 seats. Doesn't make it right; just reflects reality.

Look, I am not trying to call you out or make rude comments but I feel like you're purposely trying to misinterpret what I am saying if not, dude, really work on reading comprehension

I said IF all doctors treated patients like most medical schools treated applicants, THEN the world would have had an outcry 50 years ago about physician-patient abuse.

You were the one that stated that medical schools can do the bare minimum or worse nothing, and get away with it. They can do it cause the amount of applicants. They can do it cause there is nothing the applicants can do. They can do it because of the demand. Really, you just described the same physician-patient relationship. There are thousands of more patients per doctor than medical school seats per applicant, physicians hold a HUGE power balance against patients, and there is no other route for patients that want medical care unless they trust herbal medicine.

Ergo, IF all doctors - with the huge power balance they hold over patients - were to give the bare minimum of care, not call patients with results, not speak to them about what's going on with their condition, raked in money during the whole process, etc, THEN - by your assessment of medical school vs applicants - it should be okay. But you would never argue that, because its absolutely absurd.

I am unsure what point you are trying to make. Again, you either agree it can be better and should be fixed or you don't. HOW that happens can be discussed, but it seems all you want to do is agree that it is messed up, and say there is nothing anyone can do to fix it and move on. By such, there is no further conversation for us to have, and we can quit derailing this post. I have my opinion and you have yours.

 

[GreenDuck12]

They can be if you hire the right person.

Still waiting for a clear explanation as to why the communication was unprofessional.

That’s because it wasn’t unprofessional. The language, structure, and tone was appropriate. It wasn’t sneering or didn’t tell applicants they were unworthy. It informed applicants that white coat had occurred and the process was closed. Sure, the message could have been delivered differently and there are a lot of things applicants wish would change about the process. But, I think there is a lesson in here about what constitutes something that is unpleasant vs unprofessional. Getting called out by my boss in front of colleagues is unpleasant. Getting screamed at in a profanity laced tirade would be unprofessional.

 

[HopeP]

I'd argue that medical schools aren't the ones responsible with providing applicants with guidance. Medical schools are responsible for their students, trainees, faculty and staff.

If an applicant is not getting good guidance, that's either on their undergraduate school for not providing the resources or them for not taking advantage of the information that's out there. Neither of those lie in the domain of the medical school.

Similarly, nothing about the initial email was disrespectful. It provided an acknowledgement that most applicants were likely unofficially aware of their status, and provided a final status update as soon as was feasible.

I see lots of requests for "regular updates", but I'm not sure what the purpose of those is. None of them tell you anything meaningful. The only thing anyone applying to medical school wants to hear is whether they're accepted or not. Until you're either accepted or rejected, you're likely under consideration. Telling you every month that no decision has been made isn't as helpful as you might think. Put together your best application, and move on. You either get accepted or you don't, and nothing you do in the interim will change that.

I am on the same page in terms of adcoms workload for so many updates, requests, LOIs and so forth potentially slowing down overall process. I suspect once application ball is rolled, a UG pre-med advisor can do anything more about application as those are now in court of medical schools with different procedures. Agree with the process and it is what it is, put your best foot forward and don't rush to apply.

 

[KnightDoc]

I see lots of requests for "regular updates", but I'm not sure what the purpose of those is. None of them tell you anything meaningful. The only thing anyone applying to medical school wants to hear is whether they're accepted or not. Until you're either accepted or rejected, you're likely under consideration. Telling you every month that no decision has been made isn't as helpful as you might think. Put together your best application, and move on. You either get accepted or you don't, and nothing you do in the interim will change that.

Actually, I was with you right to the end, and the part of your post I took the liberty of bolding is precisely what people are complaining about. This part is absolutely not true in many cases.

Either pre-II or post, many applicants who are not really under consideration are ghosted because schools are focusing on building their class and simply don't give a s**t about these people, many of whom are holding onto unrealistic hopes, particularly at schools that just don't send out Rs until classes begin or at another point late in the cycle, months after schools have made a decision, either because they just can't be bothered or because they don't want to have to deal with applicants' disappointment (or that of their parents) while they are still building a class.

Schools do it because they can, not because it's the right thing to do. You can rest assured they'd find a way to meet applicant expectations if they were struggling to compete with other schools to build a class rather than literally drowning in a massive surplus of applicants.

 

[DrStephennmnm]

I am truly baffled by your comment as this is perhaps the most professional thing a school can do by ending their application cycle and sending a formal notice of such. Therte is no requirement for a school to send any notice at all as all applicants start as "unaccepted." Many schools never send out any notification. Please explain to me what would you say in such a letter? Or is better not to send anything at all?

Problem is a lot of applicants are entitled af, hence people making posts like this

 

[eigen]

Actually, I was with you right to the end, and the part of your post I took the liberty of bolding is precisely what people are complaining about. This part is absolutely not true in many cases.

I mean, the first post in this thread was an email that was only sent to people on the wait list for a school. So yes, those people were absolutely under consideration until the end.

I go back to my point: the application season ends when classes begin and the class is complete. That is when schools are obliged to send something out. Wanting something earlier than that is, in my opinion, entitlement.

Being ghosted would be not hearing anything at all. Hearing something at the end of the defined application season is not being ghosted- it's just not getting the reply as early as you want it.

 

[Goro]

did you just compare applicants to terminally ill patients lol

Yeah, the false equivalences are starting to pile up pretty fast now.

 

[KnightDoc]

I mean, the first post in this thread was an email that was only sent to people on the wait list for a school. So yes, those people were absolutely under consideration until the end.

I go back to my point: the application season ends when classes begin and the class is complete. That is when schools are obliged to send something out. Wanting something earlier than that is, in my opinion, entitlement.

Being ghosted would be not hearing anything at all. Hearing something at the end of the defined application season is not being ghosted- it's just not getting the reply as early as you want it.

Unless they weren't because everyone post-II was placed on the WL. I don't know exactly what RWJMS does, but plenty of schools place everyone who doesn't receive an A post-II on the WL. In fact, the person who posted this on reddit actually withdrew in April, so he really wasn't even under consideration in July. It was a form e-mail that just went out to everyone still waiting for a decision, without even bothering to purge people who previously withdrew.

Again, as I've said in other posts in this thread, I get why schools do what they do, and I don't expect it to change, but let's not delude ourselves into thinking it's necessary for schools to operate in this manner in order to actually fill their classes.

According to @Goro and @gonnif, schools are not even obliged to send something out at the end of the defined application season, so people left hanging by RWJMS should be grateful that they received a rejection when classes actually started? Maybe that's true for the dozen or two people at the top of their WL on 7/27, but not for the dozens or maybe over 100 people who probably also received that e-mail.

It is what it is, but it's definitely not true that everyone, at every school, who is neither accepted nor rejected is really actively under consideration. This is true from the point the application is run through the first screen until the very end of the cycle. The truth is a lot of those people simply do not receive timely notification of that fact, (some never receive a rejection and are, in fact, ghosted -- perfectly okay according to @Goro and @gonnif) primarily because the schools are in a position where they could get away with it, not because it is right, or necessary. This is why @gonnif and @Goro wisely advise us to consider ourselves rejected from the moment we hit "submit," but it is understandable why applicants feel "entitled" to a little more for the $100+ they spend to hit that "submit" button.

 

[Med Ed]

I would argue its unintentionally inconsiderate of the uniformed lens of the applicant. And not understanding how your audience will receive what your saying is, in my opinion, unprofessional.

Oh I think the writer knew very well how the audience would receive the information, which is the same way applicants always receive such notices: negatively.

It doesn't matter if Rutgers enlisted a team of researchers and spent six years and $1.3 million dollars crafting the softest imaginable rejection letter. The truth hurts.

 

[deleted987519]

Oh I think the writer knew very well how the audience would receive the information, which is the same way applicants always receive such notices: negatively.

It doesn't matter if Rutgers enlisted a team of researchers and spent six years and $1.3 million dollars crafting the softest imaginable rejection letter. The truth hurts.

Idk man. You can find examples on here of people actually admiring schools for sending “nice” rejections (I collected many myself )

Not rejections per se, but since people have mentioned the Mayo debacle in this thread it might be worth noting Penn State did practically the same thing the very next day coincidentally (congratulating people not accepted on being accepted) and there is no fuss because they sent a legit apology 10 minutes later instead of some weird robotic explanation hours later.

 

[dr_kateb]

r/premed seems to be filled with incessant whining lately.

 

[dptemo]

Before we judge whether adcoms are caring or not, let's spend a day in their shoes.

 

[Shunsui]

Before we judge whether adcoms are caring or not, let's spend a day in their shoes.

simping for the adcoms i see. I'm sure you wouldn't be saying this if you got that email and 0 acceptances. Point is that it doesn't matter what they say bcuz we don't mean jack unless we're accepted, not that we have to put ourselves in their shoes. Better yet, tell that to a non-trad who's been busting their a** off for years just to receive a garbage message like that.

 

[dptemo]

simping for the adcoms i see. I'm sure you wouldn't be saying this if you got that email and 0 acceptances. Point is that it doesn't matter what they say bcuz we don't mean jack unless we're accepted, not that we have to put ourselves in their shoes. Better yet, tell that to a non-trad who's been busting their a** off for years just to receive a garbage message like that.

C'mon dawg ain't nobody simping on here its all anonymous. I'm just tryna get people to think about from a diff perspective.
Btw I am multiple years removed from undergrad
Stay blessed.

 

[DrStephennmnm]

simping for the adcoms i see. I'm sure you wouldn't be saying this if you got that email and 0 acceptances. Point is that it doesn't matter what they say bcuz we don't mean jack unless we're accepted, not that we have to put ourselves in their shoes. Better yet, tell that to a non-trad who's been busting their a** off for years just to receive a garbage message like that.

I'm sure btchin about it on sdn will make it better

 

[deleted688779]

Idk man. You can find examples on here of people actually admiring schools for sending “nice” rejections (I collected many myself )

Not rejections per se, but since people have mentioned the Mayo debacle in this thread it might be worth noting Penn State did practically the same thing the very next day coincidentally (congratulating people not accepted on being accepted) and there is no fuss because they sent a legit apology 10 minutes later instead of some weird robotic explanation hours later.

Tbh I don't think Mayo ever gave an adequate explanation lol. I'm close to someone who went through that whole thing and read/heard everything. From my knowledge, they immediately blamed it on Zap/AMP, called everyone with yet another vague message (i.e. yall been waitlisted, BUT WAIT THERE'S MORE, some of y'all are "highly ranked on waitlist" aka the ones we're actually considering cuz we like playing them mind games), contacted CNN to write an article putting them in the most favorable light, and quietly sweeping it under the rug.

 

[readmypostsMD]

lmao “the passage of time”... this **** worded like it be 1794

honestly, they should just communicate in memes

 

[ScrubswithnoSleeves]

Oh I think the writer knew very well how the audience would receive the information, which is the same way applicants always receive such notices: negatively.

It doesn't matter if Rutgers enlisted a team of researchers and spent six years and $1.3 million dollars crafting the softest imaginable rejection letter. The truth hurts.

Lol, then they should pay me half of that amount because I wrote this in 2 minutes and it is undoubtedly better:

"Dear Applicant,

We regret to inform you that we have officially filled our 2020 Class, and thus cannot offer acceptances to any more students. We appreciate your time and effort throughout this process and wish you the best in your future endeavors.

Kindest Regards,
ADecent School of Medicine"

This is unpleasant but professional. This will be received negatively by some, of course, but not nearly to the extent that the OP email was.

That's all I'll say on this because I honestly don't care about the wording personally, I just see where they are coming from. I care about the timing, and I understand from the conversations on this thread that it's not really possible for adcoms to improve that timing unless significant systemic changes regulating applicants' ability to switch schools occur (and they probably won't). And I also think a lot more applicants would be more understanding if they were privy to that information (I know I will be as I go for my second ring around the rosie).

 

[HopeP]

Little off the topic, reading about systematic changes. I thought after PTE and CTE those things are in control. How people are able to switch schools after committing? What am I missing here? Appreciate guidance.

 

[Med Ed]

Lol, then they should pay me half of that amount because I wrote this in 2 minutes and it is undoubtedly better:

"Dear Applicant,

We regret to inform you that we have officially filled our 2020 Class, and thus cannot offer acceptances to any more students. We appreciate your time and effort throughout this process and wish you the best in your future endeavors.

Kindest Regards,
ADecent School of Medicine"

This is unpleasant but professional. This will be received negatively by some, of course, but not nearly to the extent that the OP email was.

I don't think anyone is arguing that the message was well crafted.

That's all I'll say on this because I honestly don't care about the wording personally, I just see where they are coming from.

I think everyone knows where they are coming from, but if that's the bar for an unprofessional communication then we're all in for a long trip.

Enjoy your surgery rotation.

 

[Med Ed]

Little off the topic, reading about systematic changes. I thought after PTE and CTE those things are in control. How people are able to switch schools after committing? What am I missing here? Appreciate guidance.

The AAMC is supposed to monitor whether or not applicants actually withdraw from waitlists when they CTE, with the operative words being "supposed to."

 

[ScrubswithnoSleeves]

Little off the topic, reading about systematic changes. I thought after PTE and CTE those things are in control. How people are able to switch schools after committing? What am I missing here? Appreciate guidance.

So that is what @KnightDoc addressed earlier. The schools "enforce" CTE, not AAMC. The schools are just notified that a student has CTE'd to a school, but there is no true obligation for the student to withdraw from the other schools nor for the other schools not to accept that student.

Correct me if I'm wrong.