Why do neurologists start anti-epileptics on patients with clear pseudo-seizures?

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DrMetal

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Why do neurologists start anti-epileptics on patients with clear pseudo-seizures?

the description of the seizure is pseudo in nature, the patient has a mental health history (anxiety, depression, PTSD), the EEG is normal (x many times, of many lengths), head imaging is normal.

Why start on Keppra or other anti-epileptics? Furthermore, when the patient continues to have their pseudo-seizures, why continue the anti-epileptic medications, and even up-titrate them? Why why why?!
 
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Oftentimes, patients swear something is wrong and want to be treated with something. So if I do start an antiepileptic for PNES, I’ll start a mood stabilizer like Lamictal or Depakote, and I also refer them out to psychiatry if they’re willing to.
 
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Also, don’t forget up to 50% of patients with PNES can also have real epileptic episodes especially if they do have risk factors for them (TBI, prematurity at birth, HIE at birth, family history of seizures, prior stroke or brain bleeds, substance abuse). Sometimes all workup may be negative, but if we do have high suspicion base on description or even captured events (EMU), we still may elect to treat. Remember EEGs are just surface electrodes, and can miss seizures with deeper focus.
 
Oftentimes, patients swear something is wrong and wants to be treated with something.

I know! So stop feeding into it. You're not doing them any favors by prescribing a medication that they don't really need, and that could come with side effects.

I’ll start a mood stabilizer like Lamictal or Depakote, and I also refer them out to psychiatry if they’re willing to.

Yes! If you're doing that, then you're essentially treating (or trying to treat) their mental health pathology (not a true seizure disorder). And that, treating the mental health path, is exactly what we should be doing.

Also, don’t forget up to 50% of patients with PNES can also have real epileptic episodes especially if they do have risk factors for them (TBI, prematurity at birth, HIE at birth, family history of seizures, prior stroke or brain bleeds, substance abuse). Sometimes all workup may be negative, but if we do have high suspicion base on description or even captured events (EMU), we still may elect to treat. Remember EEGs are just surface electrodes, and can miss seizures with deeper focus.

Ok, if you're still working it up and trying to establish real epilepsy, or have a high clinical suspicion for it (based of the patient's own crazy history, good luck with that), then fine . . .I get it. Keppra away.

But after the umpteenth EEG (30-minute, 24-hour, 7-day), after the 5th MRI, the psychiatric evaluation that demonstrates true psych . . .can we then call a spade a spade???

I love the acronym PNES btw. Now whoever coined that was a neurologist with a sense of humor.
 
So yes, side effects are an issue, but in medicine sometimes we have the thing where the risk of the untreated condition if present, outweighs the harm of intervention in the face of no pathology.

I'm not a neurologist. Here's my thoughts anyway.

It was also explained to me, not sure how true and no I don't have a citation, that there can be this overlap between folks who have both pseudoseizures and real seizures. That it is easier to determine someone HAS pseudoseizures than it is to prove they DON'T have some type of epilepsy. Not all events are frequent or caught on diagnostics as pointed out. I'm not saying all the folks with pseudoseizures have real seizures. But some do. I think it was suggested even to me, that there might be a link between the two phenomenon.

Another analogy might be the migraine frequent flier always worried it's a stroke, and some number of them will go on to have a stroke. So that can't always get treated like that's all it is, a migraine. The consequences of the missed diagnosis is too profound.

This could get way into the woo woo about "pseudoseizures" and "real" seizures. I fell down this rabbit hole on rotation because functional movement disorders fascinate me (the so-called psychogenic stuff). If there's a neurologist who wants to talk a lot about it I would be fascinated. That's a digression I might pick up later after a review.

I've heard it said that some of the terminology, "pseudoseizures" vs "real seizure" may be too simplistic.

So the issue with untreated seizures is that, untreated seizures tend to get worse over time if untreated and even one untreated seizure can be devastating on the same level as a STEMI or asthma attack. One time incident, one time death, one time without enough oxygen for brain damage. If they're driving, a whole busload of kids. So do we want to be sure we let someone have undiagnosed seizures until they become bad enough to be obvious? We can't leave people on EEG 24/7. What's more, the lab might never recreate whatever stimulus that could be something that is actually triggering something real, in someone who may also have pseudoseizures.

Maybe the rare neurotic person who will never quit, really has something wrong. May benefit from meds. Maybe that's why they won't quit. Even if they have pseudoseizures... they might be right they have real ones. The point about oh well, some folks aren't going to quit until they get meds, so here's meds... I don't take to mean, oh, let's give meds to anyone who wants them. I think it's more a statement, if all there is to gain is potentially missing the person who maybe has real seizures, because we want to be a hardass about these other folks ending up where they're headed (some kind of meds) regardless, maybe that isn't worth it.

Sometimes in medicine we worry so much about the person who doesn't need treatment, that we might miss the person who *really* does. The more serious that consequence, the better tolerated the drug, on the balance it might be better to give it. It's all a balance. But that kind of thinking happens all the time, both ways (we miss things, we overtreat).

I hope that makes sense. If I'm not going to make a difference with those people, I may as well hedge my bets with the folks that might benefit from the intervention.

I dunno man. I leave this to the neurologists. If they put the person on the sz med, I don't really care what the diagnosis is. It's not for me to decide. Not my wheelhouse.

There's a perception that "validating" the neurotic person with treatment will make them worse and make other fanciful claims... yes, and no.

I also think there are other ways we treat these folks, not in terms of meds or interventions, that creates some of the behaviors we don't want to see.

Going back to functional movement disorders, I think there are a lot of things in medicine we thought were "psychological" and turned out to have some basis where the issue isn't, the symptomology would be completely resolved with "good living" and counseling. That there is a somatic process not under the person's direct or subconscious control, and would benefit from a biomolecular approach. Other things are entrenched in the brain in a way that dealing with the circuit behind the behavior is going to take more than a will to do it, and we don't know how.

Even the folks where psychiatric therapy is all there is do to for them, certain approaches are more likely to get them there. Sometimes you have to play along until they realize, the issue isn't that no one believes them or that there is a therapy that hasn't been tried. We have a hard enough time convincing people with 100% somatic disease that we have nothing more to offer without it coming off like abandonment. People are in distress, and they want to be fixed. It's human. So the issue is trying to lead someone where they need to go, and if it's the psychiatrist, it's not a result of not being taken seriously.

I've seen this with functional movement disorders. Plenty of well meaning individuals and after a diagnosis of exclusion determines the neurologist and meds have limited utility, and they go to psychiatry. Some get better, some don't. The true malingerer is rare.

I mean so we're talking about neurology and psychiatry, and the process I'm talking about, is this major journey on the order of years for some of the thing EM docs or other specialties find frustrating. It's fine, it's not what you do and you see it as needlessly making your life harder. Because yes, it doesn't belong with you. But what others are doing with it, just because it makes your life harder, doesn't mean it's being done wrong.

I think it takes a different beast entirely for psych/neuro.
 
I know! So stop feeding into it. You're not doing them any favors by prescribing a medication that they don't really need, and that could come with side effects.



Yes! If you're doing that, then you're essentially treating (or trying to treat) their mental health pathology (not a true seizure disorder). And that, treating the mental health path, is exactly what we should be doing.



Ok, if you're still working it up and trying to establish real epilepsy, or have a high clinical suspicion for it (based of the patient's own crazy history, good luck with that), then fine . . .I get it. Keppra away.

But after the umpteenth EEG (30-minute, 24-hour, 7-day), after the 5th MRI, the psychiatric evaluation that demonstrates true psych . . .can we then call a spade a spade???

I love the acronym PNES btw. Now whoever coined that was a neurologist with a sense of humor.
I think you have a disdain for neurologists. Lol
 
I think you have a disdain for neurologists. Lol

I honestly think it (Neurology) should be strictly out-patient. Much like Rheum or Endocrine, where the physician can't do much in the inpatient setting (but does a great deal in the outpatient setting . . and if done effectively, keeps the patient out of the hospital), there's really no point to having inpatient Neurology (except for maybe to read EEGs, nowadays done by tele-neurology anyways).
 
I honestly think it (Neurology) should be strictly out-patient. Much like Rheum or Endocrine, where the physician can't do much in the inpatient setting (but does a great deal in the outpatient setting . . and if done effectively, keeps the patient out of the hospital), there's really no point to having inpatient Neurology (except for maybe to read EEGs, nowadays done by tele-neurology anyways).
What would hospitalist do when family members insist that they want their love ones be seen by a neurologist? Lol
 
What would hospitalist do when family members insist that they want their love ones be seen by a neurologist? Lol

Patients cant always get what they want.

Well, actually, Now that healthcare CEOs are getting shot, Maybe they can get whatever the hell they want!
 
I honestly think it (Neurology) should be strictly out-patient. Much like Rheum or Endocrine, where the physician can't do much in the inpatient setting (but does a great deal in the outpatient setting . . and if done effectively, keeps the patient out of the hospital), there's really no point to having inpatient Neurology (except for maybe to read EEGs, nowadays done by tele-neurology anyways).
This is absurd. Neurologists do plenty of complex seizure, stroke, Parkinson's management in house, amongst other things. As well as diagnosis of exclusion stuff.

While there's not a whole lot for them or endocrine or rheum to do inpatient, I mean yes most issues are outpt, you don't need an army of them roaming the halls... when you need their recs, you really really need them. Conditions that need those specialties inpatient most internists are at a real loss. In my experience.

What are neurologists doing that inpatient that leads you to conclude this?
 
What would hospitalist do when family members insist that they want their love ones be seen by a neurologist? Lol
I don't know, I've found them pretty useful in ICU when they can help you make family understand their loved one is a vegetable and deserves to be unplugged as per their advanced directive, and no, having certain reflexes doesn't mean "they're still "in there!"
 
This is absurd. Neurologists do plenty of complex seizure, stroke, Parkinson's management in house, amongst other things. As well as diagnosis of exclusion stuff.

While there's not a whole lot for them or endocrine or rheum to do inpatient, I mean yes most issues are outpt, you don't need an army of them roaming the halls... when you need their recs, you really really need them. Conditions that need those specialties inpatient most internists are at a real loss. In my experience.

What are neurologists doing that inpatient that leads you to conclude this?

Ok, then why are the all going tele-services?

There's no such thing as tele-General Surgery.
 
Ok, then why are the all going tele-services?

There's no such thing as tele-General Surgery.
How is this the same as saying they have no utility inpatient? They don't always have to be physically present to give input, so now the input isn't valuable anymore?

Is the standard for utility in managing patients inpt now physical presence in the hospital? So we don't need radiology input when we manage patients inpatient now because they read remotely?

You judge utility according to whether or not telehealth can be used?

You think proceduralists have the most value? I mean I guess you're not alone, that's how reimbursement is structured.

Other people also contribute to keeping patients alive in hospital, and some of what they do is remote. Even surgeons take call and give orders from home.
 
How is this the same as saying they have no utility inpatient? They don't always have to be physically present to give input, so now the input isn't valuable anymore?

Is the standard for utility in managing patients inpt now physical presence in the hospital? So we don't need radiology input when we manage patients inpatient now because they read remotely?

You judge utility according to whether or not telehealth can be used?

You think proceduralists have the most value? I mean I guess you're not alone, that's how reimbursement is structured.

Other people also contribute to keeping patients alive in hospital, and some of what they do is remote. Even surgeons take call and give orders from home.

OKOK. Just please stop prescribing anti-eplieptics to patients who clearly don't have a seizure disorder. You're just feeding into their crazy.
 
OKOK. Just please stop prescribing anti-eplieptics to patients who clearly don't have a seizure disorder. You're just feeding into their crazy.
I am curious though, of all things, why is this so bothersome to you? Are they getting benzos? Pushing for them? Because a lot of the most used non-benzo sz meds are pretty well tolerated.

How does a questionable dx of sz make these patients such a bigger PITA as anyone else with a functional disorder, functional movement disorder, high degree of somatization or anxiety? Especially compared to controlled substance seeking patients? Or they're not the worst but still on your PITA list?

I'm not trying to give you a hard time, just trying to challenge some notions about functional movement disorders etc, and also I really do want to understand what about this specifically bothers you. Where does this lead in your experience? What would you rather be done with the patient that would be better for them? What challenges does this population present? How is specifically the neurologist treatment of them making things worse? Specifically sz meds? What things? What would be improved if they were denied sz meds?

Do they have comorbid personality disorders bugging you? Like borderline, which can have somatization complaints including psychogenic sz? To me the borderline patients are the worst, but not all the "neurotic" trait folks or functional movement disorder folks are BPD, although many are.

I guess I can completely understand the frustration with BPD and other personality disorders/traits, and how they can be related to psychogenic sz and pt seeking meds. But I guess I've seen plenty of patients with functional dx and meds in the chart that were pleasant enough, that I don't think pseudoseizure pt = total crazy PITA.
 

So a nice review. We may both be wrong. There is probably something to be said for medication having effect on patient expectations.

That said, the review does suggest that these for some patients psychogenic movement disorders do have a relationship to more accepted conditions such as migraine, actual seizure disorder, brain injury. To say nothing of serious mental illness we know impacts brain functioning in a significant way that is not just mediated by not "feeding into crazy."

Some people see their buddy blown to bits on front of them while being shot at, and they just aren't lucky enough as some other guy whose brain is more resistant, to not to have significant changes in their brain function after. Cut them slack. This is always the example we use for PTSD and trauma, but other stuff is bad and it also effects the brain.

Anyway, I think the article is good. It suggests that a competent neurologist will d/c meds as soon as they know the seizures are only psychogenic in nature. That said, someone already explained that may not be that straightforward, which the article discusses.

It also discusses how there is altered brain activity associated with a lot of this, and that it should not be assumed the patient has voluntary control, and that much of this can be seen as a brain reflex. That opens them up to training to try to control the condition, but still.
 
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