Why do non-URM envy the so-called "advantage" the URM have for admissions?

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medicine2006

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I hate to read on SDN about people complaining about how they got it hard because they're asian or white and it's so much harder for them to get into med school.:mad: You people envy the fact that in general URM do get into med schools with lower numbers. You wish you were in their shoes or had the so-called edge.

BUT did you want to be in their shoes when they had to grow up in the ghetto? Or how they had to work hard all through college because their parents were recent immigrants who couldn't afford to help pay for college? Or how unequitable society treats black people.

No non-URM even the ones that were poor never had to face the discrimination that a URM faces everyday of their life. And even when they are successful and become something an ignorant fool diminishes their accomplishments because it is assumed you got into Med, Law, Business school, etc because of affirmative action.
 

Tweetie_bird

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okay, I really don't want to sound cranky but there are SO MANY THREADS on this topic, why start another one up? Perhaps you haven't seen them (in that case I don't blame you), so I would really suggest you do a search on "URM" and you'll see what I'm talking about.

I guess I'm just being cranky because then trolls come to threads like these and start flame wars. And I don't like having to lay down the law, but unfortunately I've had to do that lately with the amount of people getting really aggressive these days.

::sigh:: it's an open forum, you have your rights....I'm just speaking as the average consumer. Carry on.
 

PCOM_Rocks

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I have to agree with medicine2006 on this one. It seems to me as I have been reading these threads that there are a lot of complainers here. This is scary because I wouldn't want our nation to produce a bunch of whinny physicians. If you are a non-URM as I am you just gotta accept that you're not gonna get special consideration and also know that not all URM got in solely because they are a URM.
 
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SouthernGirl

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OK...I can't resist the urge to reply here, even though I know I'm beating a dead horse and opening Pandora's box and all that fun stuff. So I'm going to say my piece then quietly step away forever.

Originally posted by medicine2006
...You people envy the fact that in general URM do get into med schools with lower numbers. You wish you were in their shoes or had the so-called edge.
BUT did you want to be in their shoes when they had to grow up in the ghetto? Or how they had to work hard all through college because their parents were recent immigrants who couldn't afford to help pay for college?...
No non-URM even the ones that were poor never had to face the discrimination that a URM faces everyday of their life....
I, personally, have never wished to be in the shoes of a URM. I do not envy the lower-number thing because I think that, in general, the policy sucks, and I wouldn't want to benefit from something I feel is unfair.
Get the chip off of your shoulder! The color of one's skin does not determine the ease or difficulty of one's life! I know plenty of white people and asians who are putting themselves through school, just as I know URM's who are financially comfortable. Race simply is not a fair thing to take into account.
You claim that society treats black people badly, yet you continue to perpetuate racial segretation (so to speak...maybe separatism is a better word? I hope you understand my point) by creating an "Us versus them" mentality, complaining about how white people find AA unfair, while URM's have to work so much harder (even though you yourself realize that AA oftentimes negates the achievements of successful URM's).
PCOM_Rocks, how can you justify to yourself that it is ok for some people to get "special consideration" but not others? Why can't the playing field be level?

Okay...I will now put away the soapbox. Best wishes to all.
 

Tweetie_bird

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I'm being sucked into the trap already, but I can't resist the urge to say just one thing--

Originally posted by SouthernGirl


The color of one's skin does not determine the ease or difficulty of one's life! I know plenty of white people and asians who are putting themselves through school, just as I know URM's who are financially comfortable. Race simply is not a fair thing to take into account.

AMEN SISTAH!!!!! well said. :clap: :clap:
 

gotgirth

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Two quick points that seem to come up over and over:

1) Regarding "complaining"

A distinction needs to be drawn here between complaining about policy and commenting on facts. I would agree that such complaining is generally not helpful to the board and is overall pointless. However, it should not be considered complaining if someone is trying to make a helpful, factual statement. The facts are that on average, lower stats are needed to get into school for URM students. If this is posted somewhere constructively, it shouldn't necessarily be taken as "complaining".

2) "Unfairness"

Most of the talk on this issue stems around what is fair or not fair to the individual applicant. Regardless of what individual opinions are, everyone should at least recognize the argument that the policy of affirmative action, while unfair at times to individuals, may be beneficial to society as a whole.

A link to the AAMC official position on affirmative action:

http://www.aamc.org/about/progemph/diverse/qa.pdf
 

abw

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I'm very sorry, i need to add my two cents to this.

First, I agree with the need to increase the number of URM doctors bc (1) There are cultural factors that play into how effective health care providers are and (2) they serve as role models, but there needs to be an established level of competency.

Second, the majority of people in poverty are white (source = my public finance class) I know you didn't say poverty, but i feel like that could be a good indicator of "ghetto" therfore, i won't agree with your analogy of a "stereotypical" urm climbing their way out of a ghetto.

Third, yes people are jealous and yes it is unfair that people with better scores don't get in bc of a stupid "race" box (and what is race since we're all american). I remember in high school and in college two different african american classmates of mine bragging about how they were going to get into the top schools bc of the color of their skin, and laughing at the effort that the rest of us had to put in. When skin color is the issue and not competency, everyone is losing out.
 

Neuronix

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Originally posted by medicine2006
BUT did you want to be in their shoes when they had to grow up in the ghetto? Or how they had to work hard all through college because their parents were recent immigrants who couldn't afford to help pay for college? Or how unequitable society treats black people.
I did grow up the ghetto. Our house in the middle of Wilmington was a falling down old rowhouse and my school was mostly minorities. All of the programs in my schools were for minorities only. Plenty of those sorts of urban outreach programs. Plenty of undeserved awards given and breaks in punishment given to minorities only to try to help them through. For awhile I had to move around with family members about every year because my parents were both in the hospital often. Their medical bills bankrupted them and for that and some other reasons, my mom lived in a car for my first couple years of college and my dad contributed nothing.

Now, after my first two years of college, my grades and status (upperclassmen do much better with fin aid here) got me enough money to live without having to work 30-40 hours a week so I could start doing my research. Alot of med schools have been receptive to why I don't have alot of the EC experiences and research some of the applicants have.

I just wonder. If I was a URM, probably little would have changed in my life. My cousins and friends sold drugs, often ended up in jail, had kids out of wedlock, etc... If I was a URM with these same experiences would I be interviewing at Hopkins/WashU MSTP right now?

Blah. Just a ramble.
 

Kovox

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Aight, I couldn't resist the urge to respond.

I don't get upset over AA UNLESS people ABUSE it.
Let me give you an example:

I took the August 2002 MCAT exam. Sat there and just resting my head on the table. Two seats down were these groups of students.

Two of those students were telling her how nervous they were, her response was "Oh I didn't study, my mom is on Howards Admissions board and I'm URM, I can get in anywhere."

See, now that totally upsets the hell out of me.

"You people envy the fact that in general URM do get into med schools with lower numbers. You wish you were in their shoes or had the so-called edge."

I don't envy URM getting into med schools with lower numbers, in fact I would never want to be in their shoes. I'd like to know that I got accepted into medical school based on my qualification and not want to go through medical school wondering "Did I get in because I was good enough or because the school had to fill out some quota to get funding?"

Besides, if I do envy someone, it would be people like SMW who's taking time off to teach, cheesypoofs and his persistance on getting in....and in a way, people from California who get accepted into medical school because they have extra obstacles to get through .....they must be hella elite to get accepted given their location.

"No non-URM even the ones that were poor never had to face the discrimination that a URM faces everyday of their life."

This is statement is a load of balony but since I am way too flamed up and wouldn't want to say something I don't mean.. I won't respond.



+pissed+ +pissed+

Come to think of it, both sides are whiners...we have the AA whiners whining about AA and the URM whining that the AA whiners are whining.

Enough whining?

:eek: :eek:
 

Sweet Tea

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this is why DW's AA thread should have stayed in pre-allo. :( :mad:
 

loserman

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My penny, my family came here from vietnam in a boat the size of the size of some peoples rollin 64, with about 30 other people. We brought nothing but the clothes on our backs, my mother worked in sweat shops and picked strawberrys, my father cleaned bathrooms. I lived in harlem and the LBC (home of snoop dog) three light down from the CPT (thats compton). May family has been robbed at gun point by our own race (asain gang home invasion robbery), and by others. I've been called gook, nip, bucket tooth ching chong who can't drive, and have been asked if I know kung-fu countless times. I've worked all my life while going to school, when I say all my life I mean since I was a little kid helping my mom in a sweat shop, obviously breaking child labor laws, but when your poor food is the most important thing. What I'm trying to say is I had it just as rough or not rougher then urms, and still can get no luv from da man.
 

relatively prime

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The solution to all this is very simple... make Affirmative Action economically based. Since many minorities are in a worse economic situation that non-minories... many minorites would fall under this new policy anyway...
 
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loserman

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Originally posted by relatively prime
The solution to all this is very simple... make Affirmative Action economically based. Since many minorities are in a worse economic situation that non-minories... many minorites would fall under this new policy anyway...
Word up.
 

tatabox80

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Alright, I'm ticked off, just because you are an URM, DOES NOT mean that you grew up in the ghetto, or are always treated unfairly. It also doesn't mean that people of an asian or caucasian background don't grow up in the ghetto or are discriminated against! There are also people who have distinct disadvantages, but do not get any extra help because sometimes they are difficult to express or prove. Some people have extraordinary responsibilities put on them due to family problems, or what not, which can severly hinder your performance, however, these things are hard to demonstrate to schools. If you have been poor all your life it's easy to show, or if you are an underrepresented minority, it is also easy to show. However, let's say that you had to make severe sacrifices in helping raise your siblings because your family needed to work and there was no one else to depend on. This can affect whether or not this person can do other activities and can also affect academic performance. Also, what about people who have family members who lost jobs and had to work extra hours to help their families' financial status. They also have a distinct disadvantage, but no special considerations are given to them. I think it would be hard for people in these circumstances to demonstrate these sacrifices without sounding like they are whining or belly-aching. Not saying that I think that schools giving special considerations to URM's is a bad thing because there is a large proportion of them that have great obstacles to overcome. However, there are other individuals out there that have their own obstacles which really aren't recognized...anyway, I've let off my stuff, no back to happy posts.
 

Veilside

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Originally posted by Kovox

Two of those students were telling her how nervous they were, her response was "Oh I didn't study, my mom is on Howards Admissions board and I'm URM, I can get in anywhere."
she deserves a good bitchslap
 

DW

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" i dont wanna.....walk around in circles....walk around in circles.......walk around in circles...... i dont need to.......walk around in circles......walk around in circles.........walk around in circles........."
-soul coughing

gee, have we heard any of this before? :rolleyes:


BOO-URNS!!!
 

relatively prime

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Originally posted by tatabox80
Alright, I'm ticked off, just because you are an URM, DOES NOT mean that you grew up in the ghetto, or are always treated unfairly.
....
Was this directed at me? B/c that's not at all what I was saying at all. My point is that you can't assume that race = disadvantage/advantage in any case. However, I believe there is a very strong correlation between family income and academic success/oppertunity/standardized test scores/etc. If you look at the statistics, URM families on average have a significantly lower income than non-URM families... so a policy that based AA on family income would place favor on more URMs than non-URMs (proportionately). So you'd be helping a lot of minorities that really need the help... and not the rich minorities that don't really need it as much.
 

Thundrstorm

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I haven't quite decided how I feel about affirmative action, but I think I'm leaning towards supporting it. I am not from an economically challenged background, but I am a racial minority. I know that many people don't support separating the races further with "special advantages," but consider the fact that the races are already separated by special disadvantages. Not every black American is poor or from the ghetto, but they are all black....and believe it or not, that still largely affects their life experiences. I, personally, do not believe in using race as a crutch, but let me just ask this: Has it ever occurred to you how difficult it is to concentrate on a math lecture while your classmates tell ni**er jokes? Have you ever gone to school and seen racial slurs spray-painted on the walls before starting your day? Do you know what it's like to grow up in a racially hostile environment? I do. And I was offered several scolarships based on my race and my merit, but ultimately, I didn't need them. I'm currently in school on a full merit-based scholarship and not because of my race. I, likewise, won't need my race to get into med school and I resent anyone who thinks that my academic performance doesn't stand by itself. So, I haven't personally benefited from AA, but I don't think anti-descrimination policies should be fully abolished until discrimination stops in this country.
 

chopsuey

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Originally posted by Thundrstorm
I haven't quite decided how I feel about affirmative action, but I think I'm leaning towards supporting it. I am not from an economically challenged background, but I am a racial minority. I know that many people don't support separating the races further with "special advantages," but consider the fact that the races are already separated by special disadvantages. Not every black American is poor or from the ghetto, but they are all black....and believe it or not, that still largely affects their life experiences. I, personally, do not believe in using race as a crutch, but let me just ask this: Has it ever occurred to you how difficult it is to concentrate on a math lecture while your classmates tell ni**er jokes? Have you ever gone to school and seen racial slurs spray-painted on the walls before starting your day? Do you know what it's like to grow up in a racially hostile environment? I do. And I was offered several scolarships based on my race and my merit, but ultimately, I didn't need them. I'm currently in school on a full merit-based scholarship and not because of my race. I, likewise, won't need my race to get into med school and I resent anyone who thinks that my academic performance doesn't stand by itself. So, I haven't personally benefited from AA, but I don't think anti-descrimination policies should be fully abolished until discrimination stops in this country.

i have been avoiding these threads, too...i just wanted to reiterate something that has been said before but maybe will actually stick in people's heads if it's said again (probably delusional thinking, but i'm gonna give it a shot, anyway): under represented minorities are NOT the only minorities that get discriminated against! just about every minority i know has had to deal with discrimination...i definitely dealt with my share, particularly as a child. i'm not saying that it doesn't happen more often for certain races and while i'm not jealous of anyone's race or culture, i just wanted to make clear that discrimination is not limited to under represented minorities....or even just to racial minorities!
 

whyadoctor?

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everyone agrees that some people, regardless of race, have a more difficult life than others. it seems that the solution to this problem is what is the debate. the current solution: establishing a system of inequality, advantages for URMs, that somehow counters the pre-existing system of inequality simply perpetuates and confuses the primary issue. policies should be directed at evening the so-called playing field at all levels, not simply creating a band-aid solution to the natural imbalances in wealth. equality will never happen, people aren't born physically, mentally, or economically equal, they never will be. learn it, deal with it.
 

Centrum

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Haha. What another truly idiotic thread. Get off it Medicine2006. Nobody really gives a damn.
 
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BushBaby

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Originally posted by Centrum
Haha. What another truly idiotic thread. Get off it Medicine2006. Nobody really gives a damn.
Actually Centrum, I think people do give a [email protected] about it. This topic comes up EVERY SINGLE TIME(it's not a coincidence).

If no one gave a [email protected], then we wouldn't have all these AA threads. If no one gave a [email protected], no one would bother responding to the threads.
 

Random Access

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Originally posted by abw
Second, the majority of people in poverty are white (source = my public finance class) I know you didn't say poverty, but i feel like that could be a good indicator of "ghetto" therfore, i won't agree with your analogy of a "stereotypical" urm climbing their way out of a ghetto.
Note that this has no bearing on the rest of the discussion:

While it's true that the majority of people in poverty are white (actually, last time I checked it was almost an equal number that were black and white), the percentage of white people who are in poverty is much lower.
 

womansurg

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Originally posted by relatively prime
The solution to all this is very simple... make Affirmative Action economically based. Since many minorities are in a worse economic situation that non-minories... many minorites would fall under this new policy anyway...
I disagree. This was quoted off another thread:
In New Orleans, there are several engineering firms that won't hire female engineers. When I go out into the field to construction sites to check the progress of projects, they immediately refer to me as a little girl or pretty little thing before I even have a chance to introduce myself.
When I started in medical school, I was surprised at how many sterotypes and predjudices I ran up against as a female. A good friend of mine was black, and at some point it occurred to me that she had to deal with everything I was dealing with, then with all the predjuces against blacks on top of that.

She grew up an educated, intelligent, middle class girl, not underprivileged - which is another issue onto itself, you're right. But having had a middle class America upbringing like mine, she nonetheless had daily experiences with racism. Daily. I was horrified at the things she experienced and what people would say to her. Every day of her entire life the message was reinfored: you're not good enough, you're not trustworthy, you're not smart, you're not attractive, you don't belong here, you'll never amount to anything...

qacDO...what a great story. You are an inspiration, no doubt, and I mean that sincerely. But when people look at you they think 'smart', 'reliable', 'hard working'...automatically, without you're having to make any statement on your own. When mainstream America looks at my black friend they think, 'criminal', 'drug addicit', 'unwed mother', 'not smart', 'uneducated'.....or even worse. Similar for hispanics.

When African Americans are able to achieve in this culture, it becomes noteworthy, because their struggle is so great. Their perspectives are - as in the acronym - underrepresented, and are thus valuable and worthy of recruitment unto themselves. But don't forget, they're running this race with a handicap.
 

Thundrstorm

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Originally posted by chopsuey
i have been avoiding these threads, too...i just wanted to reiterate something that has been said before but maybe will actually stick in people's heads if it's said again (probably delusional thinking, but i'm gonna give it a shot, anyway): under represented minorities are NOT the only minorities that get discriminated against! just about every minority i know has had to deal with discrimination...i definitely dealt with my share, particularly as a child. i'm not saying that it doesn't happen more often for certain races and while i'm not jealous of anyone's race or culture, i just wanted to make clear that discrimination is not limited to under represented minorities....or even just to racial minorities!
I and others have been disciminated against for religion, politics, beliefs, socioeconomic background, many things not related to race or ethnicity. Yet, the historical fact is that the institution of slavery and its aftermanth (Jim Crow) did create a unique system of discrimination in regards to balck Americans that cannot be ignored. History affects current events. I never said there weren't other kinds of discrimination; I was just giving one example. BTW, what do you mean by other minorites that aren't under-represented. The very definition of a minority is an under-represented group. Could you clarify or give an example? thanks.
 

whyadoctor?

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this question is bound to bring much heat, but, who cares.

Why do you think those stereotypes of black people exist? Were they wimsical fantasies construed by some deaf/dumb/blind racist?

Question:

Is there truth in stereotypes?

My Answer:

Yes.
 

relatively prime

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Originally posted by womansurg
I disagree. This was quoted off another thread:

When I started in medical school, I was surprised at how many sterotypes and predjudices I ran up against as a female. A good friend of mine was black, and at some point it occurred to me that she had to deal with everything I was dealing with, then with all the predjuces against blacks on top of that.

She grew up an educated, intelligent, middle class girl, not underprivileged - which is another issue onto itself, you're right. But having had a middle class America upbringing like mine, she nonetheless had daily experiences with racism. Daily. I was horrified at the things she experienced and what people would say to her. Every day of her entire life the message was reinfored: you're not good enough, you're not trustworthy, you're not smart, you're not attractive, you don't belong here, you'll never amount to anything...

qacDO...what a great story. You are an inspiration, no doubt, and I mean that sincerely. But when people look at you they think 'smart', 'reliable', 'hard working'...automatically, without you're having to make any statement on your own. When mainstream America looks at my black friend they think, 'criminal', 'drug addicit', 'unwed mother', 'not smart', 'uneducated'.....or even worse. Similar for hispanics.

When African Americans are able to achieve in this culture, it becomes noteworthy, because their struggle is so great. Their perspectives are - as in the acronym - underrepresented, and are thus valuable and worthy of recruitment unto themselves. But don't forget, they're running this race with a handicap.

I understand what you are saying and you're right. I'm not denying that URMs, women and other minorities don't have to put up with predjudice... regardless of their economic status. However, if you were to give advantage to anyone and everyone who's been treated unfairly because of race, gender, religion, sexuality, etc... then something like 70% of med school applicants would have to benefit from A.A. And that would defeat the point. A person's economic disadvantage is the only disadvantage that can be quantified and acturately measured. Thus it is the only thing on which laws/policies can be reasonably based. How do you measure how much a person has been discriminated against? You can't.
 
B

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I have had to put up with 50x as much bullsh*t as any black person. What myself and my family have gone through to achieve success was all on our own accord without assistance from anybody. We came to America because its all about the best man for the job.

My dad came here with $7 and now my family is worth over $1 million. All along our journey we never recieved any government assistance, not once.

I have paid for all of my college by myself 100%. My parents didn't pay for it nor was I ever spoiled. I paid for my own cars and my own insurance and food. Basically I pay for myself.

Now for some of the prejudice and discrimination I have put up with (this is where its much worse than what any black person has put up with) -

I have been called Sand Nigg*r, Camel Jockey, Apo, Habib, etc . . .
I have been associated with convenience stores and other stereotypes.
I grew up in a backwoods area that doesn't take well to minorities other than blacks.
I have been called Saddam and was under scrutiny my whole childhood from the Gulf War onward. At the airport people look at me funny. I am always searched and put under close scrutiny whenever I travel. Recently I have been put under even closer scrutiny after 9-11. I have been called Osama and terrorist. I have been spit at and given dirty looks.


Now after all this I have been though I don't get squat - but I don't even care about that. I don't expect handouts and I wouldn't take them if they were offered to me. What bugs me is that others who had/have it much better than me are getting benefits that nobody else is entitled to.
 

Avonlea

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There are two conflicting issues here:
1) an INDIVIDUAL harboring envy b/c of someONE else's entry into med school
2) an INDIVIDUAL trying to explain his/her envy by raising a SOCIETAL issue of inequality.

Therefore, talking about your own individual experiences of inequality is useless because the fundamental causes of inequality are based on a MUCH larger picture than yourself.

True, societal inequalities will always exist, but by civilized progression, we can amend the VARIABLES of inequality---that's all we can hope for. For instance, discrimination of Irish was a big deal in our history, now it's less so. It is the hope of many that discrimination by skin color will also diminish, with time, and programs that help cushion the discrimination.

If we were all pitted one against one, this world would remain static. But the only thing constant in this universe is change. Let's try not to judge by what we have seen and heard, but by believing that the truth is somewhere in the middle. We must strive to learn more than what we think we already know. Envy wisdom instead.
 

All-Star14

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My take on getting into med school (race independent):
"What's meant to be will be"; this means if you were meant to make it into medical school, eventually you'll be accepted. Crying about the unfairness of AA will not get you there (that's passive action). Improving your track record will give you a better chance of making it. BTW, not all blacks get into medical school. We (and other URMs) are still underrepresented in medical school. I'm reminded of this fact each time I pass the medical students' bulletin board on my way to work. Though this particular institution prides itself on composing classes containing 25% URM, I didn't even count half that amount (when looking at their pictures on the bulletin board). PM me if you'd like to know the name of the school to which I made reference in this post.
 

LoveDoc

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HYPOTHETICAL QUESTION:
If you were in your senior year of college and you were told you would be accepted into any medical school of your choice with the understanding that upon graduation you must see low-income patients and no other patients throughout your entire career how would you respond?


a) Scream and shout and be proud you are 1 of the few who make it into medical school.
b) Change careers because you do not think you will be able to pay back your student loans.
c) Apply to medical schools you don't want to attend because this is not how you want to spend your future.
d) Fill in the blank...

NOW STOP! When you read the hypothetical question what FIRST popped into your mind? Did you equate low-income with a certain group of people? Did you read on with anticipation and agree this matched your career goals? Until we can honestly address questions like this and shift the mindset that quality healthcare is only for those who can afford it then I believe URMs (since disproportionately) represented in US Med Schools need to be given special acceptance considerations. Studies prove that URMs are more apt to practice in underserved areas. Also, has anyone done serious research on the existing health gap between minorities and non-minorities across the nation? Is this important and do you plan to tackle this problem through your career in medicine?

Bottom line, a group of people's inability or unwillingness to be healthy, prevent disease, and get early diagnosis costs each one of us individually. Any effort to change this trend is a benefit for the whole.
 
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jaredallen

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Regardless of how many times I see this thread rise from its own ashes, I never cease to be fascinated with the breadth of replies. What amazes me most is that someone in his or her infinite wisdom has created a system that effectively frustrates everyone involved.

Anyway, on to my ramblings (and my first post by the way.) I am currently a junior and will begin the medical school application process next spring. I am also a Native American, which, as I am sure most of you know, conveniently places me under the heading of URM. That being said, I have never used and will never use my ethnicity for personal advancement. I was accepted to my university on my own merit and pay for it with my own sweat. To lean on the sympathies of anyone in order to lower the standards required to achieve my goal will do nothing but trivialize what I have accomplished in my life. Discrimination has always existed and will continue to exist long after we are gone. It is up to each individual to transcend his (or her, as the case may be) environment and become more than what society expects. It is this personal accountability that will eventually change the opinions of the ignorant and wipe the prejudices from the minds of bigots, not affirmative action.
 

Amit1

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As unfair as it is for URM's to be held to a lower standard one thing still gives me solace.

All of us, URM or not, will have to pass medical school to become physicians. Passing medical school is a huge challenge in itself and I doubt any highly unqualified person would be able to pass.

So everything is alright. Even though URM's recieve unfair consideration to be admitted, they will have to go though the med schools just like everyone else. If they are underqualified then they will not survive in med school and will be weeded out.

No worries, all is well.:clap:
 

gotgirth

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I don't agree with everything that they say, but it is a position worth reading:

From the AAMC affirmative action FAQ:

http://www.aamc.org/about/progemph/diverse/qa.pdf

Question:

Instead of focussing on race, why can?t we just give special consideration in admissions to students from economically disadvantaged families? Most people could accept that as fair.

Answer:

The idea of using economic disadvantage is appealing but the truth is that race really matters, regardless of the income level of the family. Two examples:

?Contrary to conventional wisdom, even when minority students come from middle-class families, their academic disadvantages with respect to whites or Asians persist. For example, when SAT or MCAT scores are stratified by race and ethnicity, and by income, higher-income members of any racial or ethnic group do have higher scores than do lower income members; but, within every income band, underrepresented minorities have lower scores than do whites and Asians (see figure below). Tragically, this kind of disparity has been used in the past to say that there are inherent genetic differences among races. Instead, we believe that these disparities in test scores are due to powerful social, economic and educational forces operating along racial and ethnic lines, resulting in educational inequities from kindergarten through high school and beyond.
 

vm26

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Haven't really given the aa topic too much thought until now, more importantly than one's race, I def feel one's socioecononmic status, and the environment in that one is raised in-eg. expectations/priorities that the parents have for their children, having an intact nuclear family free of alcohol/drug addictions, neighborhood/school system available etc., play a bigger role in one's ability to be studious and thus have more opportunity in terms of education/career.

With that said, if urm's are underrepresented because they often lack the ideal situations listed above, well I guess there needs to be something to level the playing field within reason, I dont know how big a role being a urm actually plays, if a schools typical #'s are 30, 3.6, and I dont think anyone regardless of ethnicity/race should be gainning entrance with 22's, 2.9's (need to be able to get thru med school to become a Dr.)

as a side note, whenever aa is a topic, why is it that no one brings up the issue that despite being a tiny majority in our society, african americans still dominate pro sports such as basketball, football, boxing, track/field? non-african americans are even more underrepresented in these areas than urm's are in med school, could you visualize at a NBA or NFL draft, team reps saying, we have to pass over so-so, we know he's bigger, faster, stronger, but we have a quota to fill so lets take this guy, would never happen, maybe the difference is that #'s such mcat/gpa arent as strongly correlated with making a quality physicican, as are physical attributes (speed, size, strength) with being a quality athlete, anyway, thought this is an interesting topic, am I a racist for bringing this up? can anyone give me their interpretation of the facts?
 

pathdr2b

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Originally posted by Beoz
:mad:

I have had to put up with 50x as much bullsh*t as any black person. What myself and my family have gone through to achieve success was all on our own accord without assistance from anybody. We came to America because its all about the best man for the job.

My dad came here with $7 and now my family is worth over $1 million. All along our journey we never recieved any government assistance, not once.

I have paid for all of my college by myself 100%. My parents didn't pay for it nor was I ever spoiled. I paid for my own cars and my own insurance and food. Basically I pay for myself.

Now for some of the prejudice and discrimination I have put up with (this is where its much worse than what any black person has put up with) -

I have been called Sand Nigg*r, Camel Jockey, Apo, Habib, etc . . .
I have been associated with convenience stores and other stereotypes.
I grew up in a backwoods area that doesn't take well to minorities other than blacks.
I have been called Saddam and was under scrutiny my whole childhood from the Gulf War onward. At the airport people look at me funny. I am always searched and put under close scrutiny whenever I travel. Recently I have been put under even closer scrutiny after 9-11. I have been called Osama and terrorist. I have been spit at and given dirty looks.

Now if people of your ethnicity deal with situations like this for the next 400 years, THEN you'll be able to relate to the black experience in America. Remember, your Dad came over with $7, not in chains! BIG DIFFERENCE!!!!
 

loserman

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Originally posted by pathdr2b
Now if people of your ethnicity deal with situations like this for the next 400 years, THEN you'll be able to relate to the black experience in America. Remember, your Dad came over with $7, not in chains! BIG DIFFERENCE!!!!
Man your dad didn't come in chains foo, dat was over a bill ago. Yo dad had more then $7, what home boy is saying is that his dad came with 7 and did more in that time then yo dad did in his lifetime, and you know yo pops had more den a dub when he started.
 

pathdr2b

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Originally posted by qac DO
Man your dad didn't come in chains foo, dat was over a bill ago. Yo dad had more then $7, what home boy is saying is that his dad came with 7 and did more in that time then yo dad did in his lifetime, and you know yo pops had more den a dub when he started.
Opps you're right, my Dad was a UC- Berkley graduate and vice-president of a gas company. So dam*, I guess I REALLY can't relate! :laugh: :laugh:

And by the way, is that Vietnamese english you're speaking and can you translate your post for those of us that don't speak ignoramous? :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
 

loserman

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Originally posted by pathdr2b
Opps you're right, my Dad was a UC- Berkley graduate and vice-president of a gas company. So dam*, I guess I REALLY can't relate! :laugh: :laugh:

And by the way, is that Vietnamese english you're speaking and can you translate your post for those of us that don't speak ignoramous? :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
My bad dog, I spoke in ignoramous so you could better understand me, sounds to me like you've haven't had it rough at all. I don't hate da playaz, just da game. I'm not a playa I just crush alot.
 

pathdr2b

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Originally posted by qac DO
My bad dog, I spoke in ignoramous so you could better understand me, sounds to me like you've haven't had it rough at all. I don't hate da playaz, just da game. I'm not a playa I just crush alot.
Now would it be dope if the med schools said nope cause you "speaka no english" ?? :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
 

loserman

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Originally posted by pathdr2b
Now would it be dope if the med schools said nope cause you "speaka no english" ?? :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Na, already got acceptance, cuz when I went into interviews, left da hood speak at da door, and threw on my nerdy bucket tooth gook look, and broken english.
 

loserman

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Originally posted by Veilside
good luck in the caribbeans
Dam don't hate dog, so many playa haters in here. It's not the caribbean wit a 36M (9V, 12P, 15B), its a us school, like a said english isn't my primary language.
 

loserman

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Originally posted by Veilside
good luck in the caribbeans
Dam don't hate dog, so many playa haters in here. It's not the caribbean wit a 36M (9V, 12P, 15B), its a u.s. school, like a said english isn't my primary language. Wit dees # as a URM I would fo shizzy my nizzies be in a U.C. school, dat why I hate da game, not da playaz. Don't hate, congraulate, if ya can't particapate.
 

Rudy1223

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Originally posted by pathdr2b
Opps you're right, my Dad was a UC- Berkley graduate and vice-president of a gas company. So dam*, I guess I REALLY can't relate! :laugh: :laugh:

And by the way, is that Vietnamese english you're speaking and can you translate your post for those of us that don't speak ignoramous? :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

When I first saw pathdr2b's reply it made me sick! How can anybody (especially an aspiring physician that is dedicating his/her life to help other's through their suffering) be so cruel and malicious. I think this is the most self-absorbed thing I have ever seen. People like Pathdr2b keep AA very much alive.

In reply to the URM issue:

URM are given special consideration to medical school only because they have low representation in medicine. Some preconceptions are that they have faced circumstances that non-URM have never faced and this is totally untrue. We have all (URM or not) faced hardships! We need to stop seeing medical school's recruitment of URM as a game of who has suffered the most!

Medical school's are bringing diversity to the plate. We don't want a medical school composed of 100 caucasian's or 100 African-americans or 100 Mexican-americans. Just as we wouldn't want the ten best quarterbacks on one football team or the 5 best pointguards in any team. Why? It wouldn't be a good team! Some people have the distorted idea that medical school is all about numbers, if you truly believe that, good luck getting into medical school my friend.

p.s. sorry pathdr2b for being so harsh, but your post is so full of anger and sinicism. You possess the attitude and consideration of a rabid animal. Grow up kid.


Rudy
 

pathdr2b

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Originally posted by Rudy1223
When I first saw pathdr2b's reply it made me sick! How can anybody (especially an aspiring physician that is dedicating his/her life to help other's through their suffering) be so cruel and malicious. I think this is the most self-absorbed thing I have ever seen. People like Pathdr2b keep AA very much alive.

p.s. sorry pathdr2b for being so harsh, but your post is so full of anger and sinicism. You possess the attitude and consideration of a rabid animal. Grow up kid.


Rudy

OK, Rudy your response is stupid. What is so harsh about my truthful response to qac's inference that all URM's understand slang? Or are you vietnamese too and just took this a little too seriously. May I suggest a laxative? (I use to chemically test them at a pharmaceutical company and could suggest a really good one!)

And please don't apologize. It's obivious you're picking favorites as far as "harsh emails" on this thread are concerned.

Finally, I doubt I keep AA alive at all. If it never existed I'd still have 3 college degrees because my stats are "all that and a bag of stethoscopes"!!!!! :p
 

Veilside

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Originally posted by qac DO
Dam don't hate dog, so many playa haters in here. It's not the caribbean wit a 36M (9V, 12P, 15B), its a u.s. school, like a said english isn't my primary language. Wit dees # as a URM I would fo shizzy my nizzies be in a U.C. school, dat why I hate da game, not da playaz. Don't hate, congraulate, if ya can't particapate.
naw naw naw mr. 36m, i ain't hatin' on yo ****. jus lettin u knows dat i feel sorry fo yo school. 's all it is na mean. and wat does english not being yo primary language got to do wit nething
 

womansurg

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Originally posted by vm26
non-african americans are even more underrepresented in these areas than urm's are in med school, could you visualize at a NBA or NFL draft, team reps saying, we have to pass over so-so, we know he's bigger, faster, stronger, but we have a quota to fill so lets take this guy, would never happen, maybe the difference is that #'s such mcat/gpa arent as strongly correlated with making a quality physicican, as are physical attributes (speed, size, strength) with being a quality athlete, anyway, thought this is an interesting topic, am I a racist for bringing this up? can anyone give me their interpretation of the facts?
It's more as if the professional teams were in need of players who were shorter, smaller, but still excellent atheletes.

The medical community has a well defined need for minority perspective, contribution, involvement - it is correct and justifiable to actively recruit for these characteristics in applicants. Baseline academic excellence is a necessary requirement, but is not a good measuring stick of what constitutes the best people. Choosing an incoming class based on the highest scores/grades would yield an inadequately diversified population, and the provision of medical care would be the poorer for it.
 
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