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Why do people complain that loans are hard to pay off?

Discussion in 'Pre-Medical - MD' started by Mayday, Mar 14, 2007.

  1. Mayday

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    I can and have lived on 30k a year. Even if I net 90k a year after residency is over, that still gives me 60k a year to pay on the loans. If the loan total was 250,000 it could be paid off in 3-5 years depending on how much the interest is. Does everyone come from families that make a lot of money where they don't know how to live that cheaply or what?
     
  2. MirrorTodd

    MirrorTodd It's a gas.
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    People complain that loans are hard to pay off because they're hard to pay off. Not everyone can live off of 30k like you can. Other people have a hard time budgeting there money and a lot of little expenses get tagged on month after month. If I needed to I could live off of 15k a year. I'd be suffering, but I could handle it. However, I wouldn't want to live like that for a very long time.
     
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  3. NickRiviera

    NickRiviera MS-Never
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    250k @ 7% interest for 5 years is 297k total
    For 10 years, it's 348k total
    You don't make bank while in residency and you are likely in your 30s when you start paying your loans
    What about family? What about a house to live in? What about saving for retirement? What if you get cancer or AIDS?
     
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  4. p9142

    p9142 UR out of your element!
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    I plan on paying mine off ASAP. If you live like a resident for 3-4 extra years it shouldn't be a problem.
     
  5. spicedmanna

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    My guess is that you are assuming that you are going to be single, have no children, and no other payments, such as a car loan, and/or a mortgage.
     
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  6. Law2Doc

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    Living at 30k now when you are young and single is going to be very different than when you are older, maybe married, maybe kids. BTW, when you get that 90k, you have to pay uncle sam a big chunk, so you hardly have 60k/year to service your debt. And the loan total does not stay put at $250k, it continues to grow until it is paid. 3-5 years is pretty unrealistic at the salary you suggest, unless you plan to move back in with your folks.
     
  7. sirus_virus

    sirus_virus nonsense poster
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    Save this URL, return 15 years from now, and explain to the youngsters how successful you were with your plan.
     
  8. JohnMadden

    JohnMadden Political Refugee
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    Even if you had 60k/year to pay of loans, it would be SILLY to dedicate that much to loan repayment as opposed to investing at least some of it...
     
  9. hayden

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    get a financial advisor and defer your loans past residency and you'll be all set. yeah, you hear about doctors complaining about paying off their loans, and yet, they're driving to the office in a mercedez....cry me a river.
     
  10. Law2Doc

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    Far more of the more recent vintage of docs are crying about loans while driving to work in used chryslers.
     
  11. kdburton

    kdburton Ulnar Deviant
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    Good call. People on these forums never seem to understand interest rates or the time value of money. Many student loan interest rates are cheap in comparison to returns on many investments. Also, if you ARE buying a house/car you're much better off paying those down first since the interest rates are relatively high. Unless you WANT to live on $30k/year just for kicks, you should put a big chunk your money elsewhere (investments, paying off higher-interest rate debt such as car/house pmts) and pay off your student loans over a longer period.
     
  12. Law2Doc

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    Depends on the investment, but you shouldn't be too confident to come out ahead of a 6.8% student loan interest rate making passive investments. Lots of people didn't hit that mark in the market during the late 1990s. For most non-investment savvy types, paying down a fairly high student loan isn't really that bad an investment.
     
  13. hayden

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    What's so bad about a used chrysler? Either way, a doctor who has loans to pay off can always be thankful for one thing...the availability of a job. Unlike, say a lawyer, a doctor will rarely, if ever, not beable to find work. And last time I checked, and that would be everyday, because I work at a hospital, doctors tend to drive pretty nice cars, including the young ones. Sure, it's a pain, but paying off loans if far from impossible, and as long as you have a plan, talk to the right people, you'll be fine.
     
  14. sirus_virus

    sirus_virus nonsense poster
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    That is luxury these days. Try telling that to my no furniture having, alimony paying, always bitter, primary care neighbour, whose noise/air polluting Buick wakes me up from sleep earlier than I care for everyday.

    PS this might just be a case of an SOB.
     
  15. Law2Doc

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    At least the same number of lawyers find high salaried work as doctors. But there are a ton more lawyers, so by percentage it isn't as good.
     
  16. dynx

    dynx Yankee Imperialist
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    Using my psychic powers I can see that you don't live in California or New York. Im amazing, I know. If i lived in bum-f*ck north dakota I could live off the 400 dollars it would take me to buy a gun and shoot myself...so top that.
     
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  17. Towelie

    Towelie Resident Towel
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    The average debt for graduating med students is around $130K.

    You guys need to realize that $250K is WAY, WAY larger than the average student debt. So often on this site people seem to refer to $250K as the norm, when in reality it is the upper 5% of borrowers.
     
  18. MSTPbound

    MSTPbound student
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    :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

    ...trying to figure out whether I should pay rent, buy groceries, or buy a new metrocard so I can get to work...

    :laugh: :scared: :smuggrin:

    I:love: NY.
     
  19. Twitch

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    There was an article on USA TODAY a few weeks back lamenting how difficult it's starting to get for CT Surgeons to find work. Finding decent paying gigs may start to get more difficult for some specialties. Though I agree there would always be work although not perhaps at a rate you could stomach. It's all going down hill...:p

    Relax guys. We'll make plenty to have food on the table and live comfortably and most important of all - we'll be doing something we like/enjoy.
     
  20. dynx

    dynx Yankee Imperialist
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    {soothing voice}...Yeah relax guys, look over there at the pretty sunset...don't pay attention to that guy stealing your TV, thats not important now, let me just take your wallet there, so you can be more comfortable. Just breath, relax....in....and....out...let me get these heavy car keys out your pocket, great....isn't that better?

    You f*cking morons (don't be insulted Im just making an observation). If medicine doesn't pay me enough Im gonna get a JD, build a malpractice group and sue the **** out of every "im in it for the love of humanity" piece of crap moron that gave my profession away piece by piece. And I won't take legit cases, I'll sue you asswipes that "did your best" and still got a bad outcome because thats the way **** goes and I'll using the greed of the very same people you think you can save if you just take "a little" pay break or just don't drive such a nice car etc.
     
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  21. DoctaJay

    DoctaJay bone breaker
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    If I borrowed that maximum amount of federal loans ($42, 944), after 4 years I would have borrowed $171, 776. If I try to pay that back, here is the breakdown from http://www.finaid.com/calculators/scripts/loanpayments.cgi :

    Loan Balance: $171,776.00
    Loan Interest Rate: 6.80%
    Loan Term: 10 years
    Minimum Payment: $50.00

    Monthly Loan Payment:
    $1,976.80
    Number of Payments: 120

    Cumulative Payments:
    $237,216.67 <---
    Total Interest Paid: $65,440.67
     
  22. Law2Doc

    Law2Doc 5K+ Member
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    Also bear in mind that a lot of people still have undergrad loans too.
    And while the average amount of med school debt is certainly lower than $250k, you have to realize that that average factors in a lot of folks who didn't borrow as much thanks to state school lower tuitions, scholarships, and family help. I agree that most people won't have $250k in debt, but can totally see how someone with existing undergrad debt who goes to a private med school and gets no scholarship help might easilly end up in that situation.
     
  23. OP
    OP
    Mayday

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    You all are assuming that I am traditional student. I'm 30, married, and have an 11 year old son (Yes, I'm going back to school as a freshman at 30). I've lived on LESS than the 30k a year. When I WAS making 30k a year, we considered ourselves to be well off.

    also, notice that I said NET 90k a year. That's after taxes etc. If living the way I am already used to living helps me pay off my loans quickly, then I'm all for it. I doubt that I will have 250k in loans before interest. I used 250k because that's often said as the average around here.

    Year 1 60k
    Year 2 120k
    Year 3 180k
    Year 4 240k
    Year 5 300k

    Once those 5 years are over with, THEN I can look at getting a house, a nice car, etc.
     
  24. hayden

    hayden Member
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    Wow man, if you're so concerned about money, you're in the wrong profession...so guess what...you're the idiot. There's a lot of easier ways to make a buck then going to school for 8 years and doing 4 years of residency to only start making money when you're 30-35. But hey, become an ambulance chaser, I think it suits you.
     
  25. GoLAClippers

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    Are your parents rich or something? It is not easy to pay those back quickly unless you are making at least 80K. I know someone that is 28 and is still paying off her loan debt from USC undergraduate; she says she should be done in another 5 to 8 years :eek:
     
  26. shantster

    shantster Eye protection!
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    I'd think at some point you're going to be living at more than 30K a year. You will want things like a house, a new car because even if you bought a brand new car at the beginning of college it will be 11 years old by the time you complete a 3 year residency, get married, have a family, etc. You can't assume that you will always going to be able to live the exact same way throughout life.
     
  27. OP
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    Mayday

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    No. My mother, stepdad, and 2 sisters live on about $700 a month. (They have susidized housing)

    I live cheaply. I drive a junker that cost me 700 bucks and will get me through med school if I baby it. Then I can get another junker to last me through residency. For some reason all the people I've seen on here seem to think that living is more expensive than it really is.

    Rent: 750
    electric: 70
    Cell phone: 120
    Cable and internet: 100
    Home phone: 22
    Food and household supplies: 400
    ______________________________
    Monthly total: 1462
    Yearly total: 17544

    We go out and do fun things occasionally and then add things like christmas and school supplies so it comes out to about 21k a year for us to live on. And before you all start saying something about how I must live somewhere where the cost of living is really low - I don't. I live in Seattle.
     
  28. searun

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    Do not marry a high maintenance wife. Putting it more bluntly, screw the trophy wife (and I mean "screw" as in avoid these types of women like the plague!). I am 24 years old. I will be 28 when I get my MD. I will not get married during medical school, no way, that is not an option, it will not happen. Would I get married during residency? Perhaps, if I was involved with the right kind of girl. But probably not. So I will be 31 or 32 when I really start to earn a living. My plan is to continue to live like a med student for at least 5 or 6 years after I am done with my residency and pay down my debt and not adopt the "lifestyle". Just live like a student until I am 35 or 36. Is this possible. Yes, it is and I am going to do it. I was born when my mother and father were 34 and I think that is a reasonable age to have children. So I guess I will try to find a partner who will share this vision but I am going to destroy my debt by my late thirties and be free of that burden.
     
  29. OP
    OP
    Mayday

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    Read my reply above. I'm 30, married, and have a child. There is no reason to assume that I can't live the same way through residency and paying off my loans that I do now. Why bother getting a car loan when I can pay $700 cash for a car that works perfectly fine? Why buy a house when I will never have the time to be home to take care of it?
     
  30. dutchman

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    :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: calm down.
     
  31. DoctaJay

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    It is certainly possible to pay off your loans once you get out of residency. But if you look at my figures above, you will see that at a monthly loan payment of $1,976.80 (if I wanted to pay it off in 10 years), I would to be making some serious cash in order for it not to take half of my paycheck. Most residents make between $40K-$50K (depending on where you are). Its just not a good situation. Also you have no idea what outside pressures will be there. Your wife could have been waiting for you to become an "attending" so you can have your "attending" salary. Yet you still want to live like a student. Then there are college fees, bigger house fees, etc. It just sucks, and that is why it is better to have less debt.
     
  32. OP
    OP
    Mayday

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    Well, seeing as how I'm female, I don't think I have to worry about my wife bitching at me :smuggrin:
     
  33. GoLAClippers

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    Or you can always marry a rich husband that would pay off your debt :p
     
  34. OP
    OP
    Mayday

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    I think my husband would have some issues with that :laugh:
     
  35. Gut Shot

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    The human tendency is to allow your lifestyle to expand to fit your income, no matter what your income is. You're an exception. Bully for you. Woohoo.
     
  36. Law2Doc

    Law2Doc 5K+ Member
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    It's not a good idea to plan far in advance when you are or aren't going to get married, or to put your life on hold until a certain date. Life happens.
     
  37. smq123

    smq123 John William Waterhouse
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    I wouldn't count on a loan total of 250K by the time you get done. Med school tuition keeps going up every year, so don't hang onto that number too tightly. Attending salaries don't quite keep up with med school tuition hikes.

    You're also assuming that you'll be attending med school and doing a residency while living in the exact same spot that you do now. That may, or may not, be possible. You may have to move somewhere where $750 isn't enough to rent an apt. for a family of 3.

    You're also assuming that you don't have any more kids....

    Hey - how come you don't pay for health insurance or car insurance? If you get health insurance through your job, you'll have to buy that yourself when med school starts. (And yes, med schools require health insurance.)

    When people complain about how hard it is to pay off loans, remember that everyone's situation is different. In your case, your son is 11, and will be old enough that he won't need a nanny or daycare by the time you start med school. However, in some people's cases, they may have children during residency or during the tail end of med school, and suddenly are faced with having to pay for daycare or a regular babysitter, on top of loans, a car, car insurance, etc.
     
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  38. OP
    OP
    Mayday

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    I don't pay for car insurance because I don't have any (I know, I know, I'm supposed to) I don't pay for health insurance because I'm on medicaid. I don't currently have a job. My husband and I are both in school and we live off our fin. aid money plus part time work during the summer.

    No more kids for me. Physically impossible at this point.
     
  39. Eric Lindros

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    I'm looking at 250K. I can do math. No, it doesn't make me feel any better that other people go to med school for free while I won't. Thanks, though....:rolleyes:
     
  40. wcliffa

    wcliffa New Member
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    I am an attorney and I must respectfully say that some of you have no idea what you are talking about. My father is a physician and I have many physicians in my family. All they do is complain....about how they should be making more money, etc.... Not one of them, however, earns less than 200K per year. Yet, they think that other professionals make more money and have easier lives. I call this the cradle to doctor syndrome. It is a direct result of adcom policies preferring the young, no life experience, candidate. I think that a requirement for becoming a physician should be that every applicant work some kind of menial job for sustenance. Unless they are foolish, Docs do not worry about paying the light bill, foreclosures, paying medical insurance etc...things that regular folks think about. (I know some of them are my clients) Moreover, I know plenty of lawyers that earn forty thousand dollars per year for a hell of a lot of hours.

    That said, however, physicians do need to be vigilant. Every one is going to take a shot at you. Frustrated patients, cost cutting insurance companies, maleable politicians, and jealous outsiders will destroy the profession. Be politically active or, at the very least, active with your pocket book. Let your politicians know what you think. Trial lawyers have many politicians--literally, in their back pockets.
     
  41. Gut Shot

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    Hope you don't hit someone and cause them to rack up $250,000 in medical expenses. That would take you an extra 3-5 years to pay off.
     
  42. smq123

    smq123 John William Waterhouse
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    Oh - I see. I'm sorry. :(

    I guess what it comes down to is that people are so scared about loans because they don't know what their situation will be in the future. Yes, you might net 90K your first year as an attending...or you might not. You might net 60K if you do primary care. You might net less if you decide to do OB/Gyn private practice in an area that has high malpractice insurance rates. You might end up attending a really expensive med school, or be faced with doing a residency in a place that is much more expensive than where you live now. I think it's the uncertainty, and not knowing how long your repayment really will take, that kills people.
     
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  43. It'sElectric

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    So what exactly do you plan on doing when (God forbid) you or your husband get into a car accident, resulting in an obscene amount of expenses?? You do realize how foolish it is to drive around without car insurance, don't you?

    Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but you will eventually have to get health insurance (go off medicaid), so that will be another expense factored in.

    What about your kid's college?? Not paying for that either?
     
  44. StringerBell

    StringerBell It's the final countdown!
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    Have you done that in California?
     
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  45. OP
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    Mayday

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    No need to be sorry - it was a choice.

    I don't plan on going into private practice anywhere. I've done medical billing - I don't want that headache to deal with. What I *want* is to work for a hospital.
     
  46. OP
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    Mayday

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    Yes, I do realize that it's foolish. But, given how little I actually drive these days (I live 5 minutes from the school, 3 minutes from the store) It's highly unlikely that I will get into an accident. When I get into med school, I will likely take public transportation because I won't know the area.

    I won't have to pay for insurance until I am actually making money, so, yes, at that point, I will have to pay for it, but that's probably only about another 800 a month (9600 a year)

    I won't have to pay for my son's college - my ex will be paying for that (Or so he says.)
     
  47. It'sElectric

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    I have no idea what your ex does for a living (so bear with me), but unless he does quite well, he will more than likely be unable to afford your kid's college education on his own in 8 years. As I'm sure you know, undergraduate tuition is skyrocketing.

    More importantly, I wanted you to see this:
    http://www.insurance.com/quotes/Article.aspx/Car_Accidents_Tend_to_Occur_Close_to_Home/artid/104

    "Progressive asked 11,000 of its auto insurance policyholders who reported accidents in 2001 how close to home they were when the accident happened. Fifty-two percent reported they were 5 miles or less from home, and an astounding 77 percent reported they were within 15 miles of home.
     
  48. MChitty

    5+ Year Member

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    I completely feel the same way...
     
  49. Eric Lindros

    Eric Lindros Guest

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    It irks me when people feel the need to explain that average student debt is around 130K or whatever. I mean what, are we just acting scared for ****s and giggles here? Can we not estimate our debt by using simple addition? I don't even see the point in bringing that stuff up unless you are trying to rub it in.

    No, not all of us are expecting tons of scholorships are financial rewards. Not all of us can go to state schools. And certainly not all of us are clueless as to what medical school is going to cost.

    What we can do, however, is look at tuition+living for a year and multiply by 4.:rolleyes:
     
  50. ExtremeUnderdog

    ExtremeUnderdog Megalomania Extirpator
    10+ Year Member

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    First, I am not condoning the physician complaints about income (some physicians, thankfully only some, seem to live in an alternate universe). At the same time, we should note that for someone who spends his/her days in a high-stress environment where life and death may routinely hang in the balance, who has previously spent at least a decade of his/her life sacrificing and often being pushed to the limit both mentally and physically without any real compensation, it is not unreasonable to expect a reasonable income. (Physicians complaining about income are certainly NOT that terrible, when we contrast them with baseball players complaining about their multi-million dollar contracts. :rolleyes:). OK, back to the thread...

    I do know someone who paid off his $160K combined undergrad+med school debt within 32 months of getting his first job out of residency (radiology) - he was single, frugal, and determined. However, I believe that doing this when one has a family (especially children) is very selfish. I am not a proponent of spoiling children with material things, but opportunities cost money too... We only have one shot at giving our children a wonderful childhood and a great start in life - sacrificing that opportunity for the sake of filling the government's coffers faster seems quite unreasonable. What about music lessons, sports (not just throwing balls at the park, but actually experiencing a team sport, training in martial arts, etc., all of which requires fees, equipment, uniforms, etc.), visits to museums, exposure to live music, science projects, craft projects, camps, birthday parties, presents to take to their friends' birthday parties, etc. etc.... the list goes on. For a moment let us suspend our disbelief and assume that it is indeed possible to avoid all the child-related extracurricular expenses - these are after all a matter of choice, and I am fully aware of the fact that plenty of children in the US do not have these opportunities (although I find it hard to believe that healthy and able parents would deprive their children of such opportunities by choice), but let us not forget all the contingencies that are built into parenthood - everything from broken glasses, damaged shoes and torn backpacks to something imminently life-threatening. Can anyone who has been a parent for 11 years unequivocally state that their household expenses break down as follows?

    Mayday, I admire you for your financial self-control, but I also wonder whether your child will feel cheated out of opportunities because his/her parents chose to pay off school debt at break-neck speed rather than using some of their income to create said opportunities.

    Last but not least, if you are receiving Medicaid (and any other form of government assistance), keep in mind that the rest of us tax-paying folks are also helping you with your expenses every single month. ;)
     

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