Why Do People "Hate" on School Psychs????

[WorLDBank]

Okay....

So, I want to go into this field and everything, I'm a junior and all the professors in my department are clinical, counseling and developmental psychs... Not a problem.
But why is it that when they ask me what Im trying to go into to start applying in the fall and I tell them "School Psychology", it's like I just grew horns all of a sudden..
Especially when i tell them I want to go straight for the doctorate..
I get things like...
"they're just testing machines!"
"they're not real psychologists.."
"you want to go into Counseling maybe and then re specialize if you want to work in schools.."
"schools are hiring clinical psychs now you know.."
"you're going to be so frustrated!"
'you'll be owned and operated.."
"you can only work with children, not adults.."
"you'll be stuck in the schools.."
"Counseling/Clinical is more prestigious.."
"who's going to reimburse an SP in private practice?"
"you can pick up a certification, but I don't know if I'd go all the way.."


So whats up with that?
Since there are so many non School Psychs in here, maybe you guys can make me understand what all this negativity is about...

I know all of you may not share these same ideas about the profession but maybe you could tell me something...

Is there something I don't know about?
Do SP's really do nothing of value?
Are they viewed as the "black sheeps" within Psychology?

Or are my profs just crazy??!?!?!?

Im so lost in this, can't wait to hear your responses...

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[moondreamer9989]

In the past and quite a bit in the present school psychologists are looked to do to the testing - ld and whatnot. There is a new shift, which likely hasn't reached the ears of programs not connected with school psychology, into applied behavior analysis and positive behavior support. I think if this were known and understood perhaps this perception as testing machines would fade. I have not personally experienced "hating on psych programs"; however, this distance in keeping in the know about school psychology may derive from most school psych programs being located in the school of education and NOT the psychology department...which I completely do not understand. It is quite funny because in the program I am going to the curriculum in school psych runs circles around the clinical in research methods, stats, and therapy and there is no training in neuropsych either.

 

[EquestriAnn]

My ADHD brother would not be graduating high school if it weren't for school psychologists; no hate here! I actually had never heard about the negativity, but it's not my specialty so who knows. Do what you love, who cares what some snooty old professors say (unless they're right....?).

 

[positivepsych]

Whenever there is overlap between the duties of two degrees, there is antagonism. However, it sounds like your professors are saying those things in your interest.

Clinical Psychologists can do everything a school psychologist can, but not vice-versa. You're limiting yourself to a small niche as a school psychologist, which is fine if you're sure you want to do exactly that kind of work.

 

[Pia Getty]

Misinformation. In most states, clinical psychologists cannot practice in schools unless they complete the requirements to be licensed through departments of education (not a board of psychology). The requirements to practice in a school setting vary from state to state.

There is a lot of misinformation about school psychology partially due to the low numbers. In 2001, only 8 percent of new doctorates in psychology were in school psychology. This can be seen as a positive (good job market), though many people have an outdated view of the profession and have not had a chance to become familiar with the field due its lower visibility.

Talk to those that are familiar with the field. Go shadow one. Remember, if you train in school psychology to the doctoral level, complete a year internship and complete post doc. requirements, you are eligible for licensure both as a psychologist (through the board of psychologists) and as a school psychologist (typically, through the department of education), thus, by no means have you limited yourself to a small niche, but have many more opportunities to work in a variety of settings.

 

[myelin]

I have total respect for the school psych students at my school. They have to complete their MA requirements, EdS requirements, comps, thesis, practicum, and internship in 3 years (1 year being internship). They just had comps and had 70 multiple choice and 15 essays to complete in 4 hours. So they're definately worthy in my book.

I can't speak for all school psychology students, but many I know who don't aspire to conduct research opt for the MA and EdS route rather than the PhD.

As a person who works with developmentally delayed and at risk children, I think the school psychologist plays a vital role in assessment and intervention with these kids who might have otherwise fallen by the wayside. Although they are bound to this by public law 94-142 (IDEA), they are the front lines for our children and provide a necessary service for schools.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

I think the 'competition' angle is partially truly, as well as some misinformation. I've been able to work with some school psych on some research and I had nothing but good things to say about them. There is a bit of a politic back and forth going on with the use of "psychologist"....I believe we had a thread about it awhile ago on here.

School psychology has a lot of opportunity in regard to jobs, though my bias is still towards clinical because I feel that our additional training in clinical areas really inform our testing and offer a bit more flexibility.

The role of school psychologists are changing, as they seem to be much more part of the 'team' in many schools, instead of just the 'assessment person'.

 

[sicologia]

Thanks for posting this most pertinent argument. I can speak from experience on this matter since I received an MA and an EdS degree in School Psychology in a department that was split between S. Psych and Clinical/Counseling Psych. I'm now finished with another year towards my PsyD in School Psychology and this issue still comes up.

Yes, there is often antagonism between Clinical Psychs and School Psychs, but typically only in the graduate and doctoral programs. I also work as a school psychologist along with two clinical psychs practicing as school psychologist who didn't necessarily re-specialize in school psychology, but are pretty good at the conceptualization of the field. They, however, had to take an internship or field training and gain certification in s. psychology. IMO, if you choose to "cross-over" into another area of psychology, I feel you should definitely respecialize first.

In order to address the OP, I would definitely suggest to stick to your guns here. Your professor's biasness must be rooted in their own perceptions and/or security in the field. You may want to ask them point blank where they get their information. I will be practicing as a doctoral level school psychologist in a few short years and I love it! I get a lot of freedom and specialization in the field and believe that specialization within the field is likely approaching (school neuropsychologist, pediatric school psychologist, cognitive behavioral specialists, etc).

I do think that you're choosing an extremely rewarding and challenging field. It's a great thing that you already know you want your doctorate. It is at that level you will be able to do more and create more change.

Good luck to you and, remember, when you treat children in a school setting, one thing the clinical psychs don't understand as much of is the ecological (environmental) psychology of the students improvement. As a school psych, you get to see it everyday and it's first hand.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Much like clinical, it seems that the closer to grad school, the more divides there are in various areas. I haven't seen that many issues out in the field, though obviously there will still be some that will have issues.

 

[WorLDBank]

Thanks to all who responded!!

I'm starting to get it now, yeah they're in my best interest but let me hear a School Psych tell me this first and then I'll believe... (people looking from the outside only see what they want to see.)
I just wished people wouldn't try so hard to gear you away from something you feel in your heart to do, a direction you feel purposed to take, even if it's the road less traveled you know??? It would be nice if they could just be informative without putting all their personal bias into it.

From what I'm hearing from everyone, it doesn't seem like a cheap path at all...

 

[Jon4PsyD]

School Psychology is such an important field! I do not necessarily think people "hate" on it, I just think a lot of people could never do it. I know I couldn't.

I am going into Counseling Psychology and am currently doing my practicum at a public school. With the way schools are now you have: The Guidance Counselor, the School Adjustment Counselor, The School Social Worker, and sometimes even a Mental Health Counselor. This is making the School Psychologist almost ENTIRELY assesment and testing based. Giving tests, paperwork, and living at IEP meetings. In other words, a job I would be bored doing and never want to do. It's very important work and for people into assesment it is probably a dream job. Before working at a school, I had no idea School Psychologists had such little interaction with the kids and I think this is where Clinicians may get that stereotype of "how boring" toward Schol Psychologists.

And as for academics, maybe it is that competitive piece people here are mentioning. Not sure...

Jon

 

[Neuro-Dr]

Most of the issue (and I'd refer you to some of the recent statements from APA regarding the removal of the "psychologist" label from some degrees within school psych) is with the non-doctoral School Psychologists. I'm not sure anyone in clinical has any real feelings beyond preference when it come to the doctoral level. However, many feel (and I am one) that EdS and MA trained school psychologists should not be using that title. Except for those states where an MA psychologist has a "limited license" at the MA level, this title is not used publically at the MA level in clinical or counseling. Many families come into to the neurology department where I practice and quote the psychologist at the school who tells them what is or is not wrong with their child. Often this amounts to forcing all problems into one of about 5-6 catagories and they have a very limited understanding of pathology and diagnoses.

So, that may be more of the issue, which frankly would happen in clinical or counseling if suddenly MA level trained individuals were publically held up under the same title as doctoral.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

I agree with NueroDr in regard to the use of "psychologist" for non-doctorally trained people. The fact it isn't a protected term is what is partially fueling the problems.

 

[Psyched77]

I have not personally experienced "hating on psych programs"

Me either. Hopefully that's good news for the original poster.

 

[SingleGirl]

School Psychology is such an important field! I do not necessarily think people "hate" on it, I just think a lot of people could never do it. I know I couldn't.

I am going into Counseling Psychology and am currently doing my practicum at a public school. With the way schools are now you have: The Guidance Counselor, the School Adjustment Counselor, The School Social Worker, and sometimes even a Mental Health Counselor. This is making the School Psychologist almost ENTIRELY assesment and testing based. Giving tests, paperwork, and living at IEP meetings. In other words, a job I would be bored doing and never want to do. It's very important work and for people into assesment it is probably a dream job. Before working at a school, I had no idea School Psychologists had such little interaction with the kids and I think this is where Clinicians may get that stereotype of "how boring" toward Schol Psychologists.

And as for academics, maybe it is that competitive piece people here are mentioning. Not sure...

Jon

You just wrote exactly what turned me off to it completely in the beginning. I had it all planned. My degrees were in elem edu w/ a concentration on behavioral/emotional disabilites and psychology w/a concentration on exceptional children. I would get my phd school psych and rule the world with my awesomeness.

However, my professors/peers thought this was an idiotic plan and attempted to show me the error of my ways... daily. They started by showing me a payscale chart. The diff in salary between a doctoral /masters school psychologist was not even $200/month.

Then, they started with the "it's only testing" thing. Then, "it's not even a real psychologist." Then, "if you want to work with the kids, you need to be a school counselor." Coincidentally, when I mentioned school social work, they also freaked out. I think it's just something about the word school attached to a profession automatically demotes you to less than nifty status. So, I lived through the school psychology hating phase though it did change my entire gameplan.

Stay strong, if this is what you like, then go for it. Even if you decide later on that it wasn't for you, you'll still have all of the knowledge you achieved along the way and you'll be able to better use that where ever you end up on the wheel of psych.

 

[Psyched77]

However, my professors/peers thought this was an idiotic plan and attempted to show me the error of my ways... daily. They started by showing me a payscale chart. The diff in salary between a doctoral /masters school psychologist was not even $200/month.

Then, they started with the "it's only testing" thing. Then, "it's not even a real psychologist." Then, "if you want to work with the kids, you need to be a school counselor." Coincidentally, when I mentioned school social work, they also freaked out.

That's so strange. I don't know; maybe my undergrad institution is different, but the professors there present all options & are very positive about each. We have several events each year (grad school fair, etc.) that are sponsored by the psych dept, & at each one, they invite PsyDs (even though we don't have a PsyD program), MSWs, Ed Psych, Counseling Psych, etc. I'm also TAing in a capstone careers class; a professor (of 40 years) & the director of psych advising teach it together. They have had all of the above fields (& then some) come in & speak to the class & hand out literature on their respective fields. I've never, ever picked up on negative airs about the other programs from any of my professors OR the grad students. I suppose it depends on the social/professional climate of the institution. In fact, I wouldn't even know of the "negativity" toward PsyDs or School Psych if I hadn't read it here!

 

[OasisStudent]

Wow..

It's amazing to see I'm not the only one who experienced this. I thought nothing of it as I thought these were just "my professors."
I have been very interested in SP and even made a thread about my indecisiveness of choosing a field in psychology on this forum a while ago due to my professors telling me to forget about School Psych and that 'I'd have more options" going into Clinical/Counseling. Well I was fed up..
I don't want any more options. I don't want "prestige" either as just as the previous poster said, many people hear "school" and think you've decided to somehow lower your expectations in the field when without a doubt, I've seen how School Psychologists are one of the most looked up to professionals in the schools, they hold much status! & even if they didn't, who cares as long as it's a job you will love..
Also, the field is changing so much as we speak.. Those "old heads" don't know what they're talking about...

Here's what I'd say to them:

"they're just testing machines!" Fine. I didn't want to do therapy anyway.(unless you did)
"they're not real psychologists.." According to whom?
"you want to go into Counseling maybe and then re specialize if you want to work in schools.." So I can waste time and money, get out of here!
"schools are hiring clinical psychs now you know.." That's fine, maybe it's because they could only get jobs in the schools, why else would a Clinical Psychologist who is prestigious enough NOT to work in the schools, choose to??? I bet you they'll no longer be treated with such prestige in the schools system and they won't get more pay either for being "Clinical ".. they're going to have to drop "Clinical" and be called "School."
"you're going to be so frustrated!" And who hasn't been?????
'you'll be owned and operated.." At least I'll be secured a job, not have to worry about attracting clients, still set my own schedule and still get paid consistently..
"you can only work with children, not adults.." Ooops... didn't know when I chose SCHOOL psychology, I wouldn't be able to assess adults for Special Education!
"you'll be stuck in the schools.." Actually doctoral SP's can almost be guaranteed work in childrens hospitals, can privately do assessments AND work in academia other than schools...
"Counseling/Clinical is more prestigious.." Answered that one already...
"who's going to reimburse an SP in private practice?" people.
"you can pick up a certification, but I don't know if I'd go all the way.." All the way to becoming a competent professional for our dying educational system?????

I could remember this psychologist a while back saying to me, "you can't change or impact the educational system, it's a corrupt mess!"
All I could say was, watch me!

(By the way, I truly respect Clinical/Counseling Psychs.)

Good Luck!​

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

I'm glad passionate people are going into SP, as there are some great opportunities for those who are dedicated to the work. I have a friend who went Clinical---> School and she said it was a better fit for what she wanted (educational assessment, no therapy). I still think she could have gotten that in the clinical program, but to each their own.

 

[Curi0us0ne]

Oh my gosh, you got it right on OasisStudent! LoL! I love your responses! It will definitely be useful!

Wow..

Here's what I'd say to them:

"they're just testing machines!" Fine. I didn't want to do therapy anyway.(unless you did)
"they're not real psychologists.." According to whom?
"you want to go into Counseling maybe and then re specialize if you want to work in schools.." So I can waste time and money, get out of here!
"schools are hiring clinical psychs now you know.." That's fine, maybe it's because they could only get jobs in the schools, why else would a Clinical Psychologist who is prestigious enough NOT to work in the schools, choose to??? I bet you they'll no longer be treated with such prestige in the schools system and they won't get more pay either for being "Clinical ".. they're going to have to drop "Clinical" and be called "School."
"you're going to be so frustrated!" And who hasn't been?????
'you'll be owned and operated.." At least I'll be secured a job, not have to worry about attracting clients, still set my own schedule and still get paid consistently..
"you can only work with children, not adults.." Ooops... didn't know when I chose SCHOOL psychology, I wouldn't be able to assess adults for Special Education!
"you'll be stuck in the schools.." Actually doctoral SP's can almost be guaranteed work in childrens hospitals, can privately do assessments AND work in academia other than schools...
"Counseling/Clinical is more prestigious.." Answered that one already...
"who's going to reimburse an SP in private practice?" people.
"you can pick up a certification, but I don't know if I'd go all the way.." All the way to becoming a competent professional for our dying educational system?????

I could remember this psychologist a while back saying to me, "you can't change or impact the educational system, it's a corrupt mess!"
All I could say was, watch me!

(By the way, I truly respect Clinical/Counseling Psychs.)

Good Luck!​

 

[WestIndiPsych]

WorldBank,

I would go ahead with your goal. School Psychology is such a great field! If you're an undergrad now who will be going into your doctoral degree, that is exciting as by the time you graduate the field will have changed so much!!
Im in a program right now for SP and am in for the doctorate. I speak three different languages and want to expand my duties to the mental health concerns of English Language Learners and minorities since that is desperately needed in the schools.
Like you said OasisStudent, we can do more as SP's to impact schools, not just test children. It just takes some passion, hard work, persistence and keeping true to your values. If you believe in yourself, people will believe in you and give you a chance.

In the words of Frederick Douglass:
"It is easier to build strong children than to repair broken men."

Hope this helps.

 

[OasisStudent]

Nice quote..

 

[OasisStudent]

Nice quote..

 

[WorLDBank]

This is just excellent!

I didn't know that there were so many passionate people drawn to SP. I feel real confident now to stand to my guns and make my own decision at the end of the day.
I will definitely be using some of your responses OasisStudent!

Thanks.

 

[73BARMYPgsp]

I don't know about "hate" however, it bugs me that in California, you may not use the term "psychologist" unless you have been to a PhD or Psyd program. (Because it is a legally protected word). But the term "school psychologist" takes much less time to attain. (In CA, they are generally master's level). It gives the impression to the lay person that such an individual has the same training I do.

Edit--I just realized the "neuro" already addressed this issue. Sorry.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

I don't know about "hate" however, it bugs me that in California, you may not use the term "psychologist" unless you have been to a PhD or Psyd program. (Because it is a legally protected word). But the term "school psychologist" takes much less time to attain. (In CA, they are generally master's level). It gives the impression to the lay person that such an individual has the same training I do.

Edit--I just realized the "neuro" already addressed this issue. Sorry.

No worries....there is a thread about this if you want to do a search. I am right there with you, btw.

 

[73BARMYPgsp]

No worries....there is a thread about this if you want to do a search. I am right there with you, btw.

Yeah, I am a big fan of protecting the meanings of words. Why not just call me "banana" if it's all the same? The real world result is that if I hear someone say "school psychologist" I raise my eyebrow and respond "what do you mean by psychologist?"

The same has happened to VERY serious words like "rape" and "racist" as well. Nowadays "racist" means you don't support affirmative action. So what do we call them when the REAL racists come? "Really bad racists?"

 

[HanginInThere]

I am going into Counseling Psychology and am currently doing my practicum at a public school. With the way schools are now you have: The Guidance Counselor, the School Adjustment Counselor, The School Social Worker, and sometimes even a Mental Health Counselor. This is making the School Psychologist almost ENTIRELY assesment and testing based. Giving tests, paperwork, and living at IEP meetings. In other words, a job I would be bored doing and never want to do. It's very important work and for people into assesment it is probably a dream job. Before working at a school, I had no idea School Psychologists had such little interaction with the kids and I think this is where Clinicians may get that stereotype of "how boring" toward Schol Psychologists.

I think this varies greatly from state to state and probably even from school district to district. My wife is a school psychologist, and her duties are split pretty evenly between counseling and assessment. Yes there's lots of testing, paperwork, and meetings in her job, but she's also responsible for a bunch of individual and small-group counseling.

My impression from hearing her talk about her work is that she also definitely considers the testing part to be "interaction with the kids." It's one-on-one personalized assessment that is much more interactive and dynamic (especially at the young grade-school levels) than just handing kids tests and then scoring them when they're done.



As for the Psychologist vs. School Psychologist title debate, I understand how a doctoral-level practitioner would be protective of the name. For what it's worth, the school psychs I know see the differences in training, skills, and duties and aren't interested in pretending to be something they're not.

 

[Psyched77]

Nowadays "racist" means you don't support affirmative action.

I agree with the spirit of what you're saying about the value of words, but I think your comment above is overly broad & inaccurate. I think it'll help to keep the thread on topic if we don't make sweeping generalizations like this.

 

[73BARMYPgsp]

I agree with the spirit of what you're saying about the value of words, but I think your comment above is overly broad & inaccurate. I think it'll help to keep the thread on topic if we don't make sweeping generalizations like this.

I disagree. It's called using an example from another unrelated topic to make a point.

 

[73BARMYPgsp]

I think this varies greatly from state to state and probably even from school district to district. My wife is a school psychologist, and her duties are split pretty evenly between counseling and assessment. Yes there's lots of testing, paperwork, and meetings in her job, but she's also responsible for a bunch of individual and small-group counseling.

My impression from hearing her talk about her work is that she also definitely considers the testing part to be "interaction with the kids." It's one-on-one personalized assessment that is much more interactive and dynamic (especially at the young grade-school levels) than just handing kids tests and then scoring them when they're done.



As for the Psychologist vs. School Psychologist title debate, I understand how a doctoral-level practitioner would be protective of the name. For what it's worth, the school psychs I know see the differences in training, skills, and duties and aren't interested in pretending to be something they're not.

That is totally respectable. Also, she is correct in considering testing to be interaction. In fact, on the APPIC application, the broad section is entitled "intervention and assessment." So they sort of see it that way too, even though they do break it down further into "face to face" hours.

 

[sicologia]

To respond to the OP, I think that any possible "hatin'" on school psychologist is unwarranted and, possibly due to factors beyond the field's control. Most people don't understand what it is S. Psychs do. In fact, sometimes, I don't even know what I am doing. But, we must face it. Most people who downplay school psychology typically never wanted to go into the field in the first place. School psychology was also more of an afterthought for me as well. I used to think that clinical or counseling psychology might be more respectful or even glamorous, but now I know better. Having patients is not necessarily a more glamorous situation. It's simply different! That's all.

For those of you trying to make a decision whether you ought to do one thing or the other. Consider what your gut says and take what others have to say with caution. They may have a bias due to their own choice of doctorates or a conversation they once had with a s. psych. or, possibly they may have no reason at all, but what they've heard. Go with your gut and your heart. Your mind will follow!

 

[Blankie]

Okay....

So, I want to go into this field and everything, I'm a junior and all the professors in my department are clinical, counseling and developmental psychs... Not a problem.
But why is it that when they ask me what Im trying to go into to start applying in the fall and I tell them "School Psychology", it's like I just grew horns all of a sudden..
Especially when i tell them I want to go straight for the doctorate..
I get things like...
"they're just testing machines!"
"they're not real psychologists.."
"you want to go into Counseling maybe and then re specialize if you want to work in schools.."
"schools are hiring clinical psychs now you know.."
"you're going to be so frustrated!"
'you'll be owned and operated.."
"you can only work with children, not adults.."
"you'll be stuck in the schools.."
"Counseling/Clinical is more prestigious.."
"who's going to reimburse an SP in private practice?"
"you can pick up a certification, but I don't know if I'd go all the way.."


So whats up with that?
Since there are so many non School Psychs in here, maybe you guys can make me understand what all this negativity is about...

I know all of you may not share these same ideas about the profession but maybe you could tell me something...

Is there something I don't know about?
Do SP's really do nothing of value?
Are they viewed as the "black sheeps" within Psychology?

Or are my profs just crazy??!?!?!?

Im so lost in this, can't wait to hear your responses...

 

[Blankie]

You might not want to hear this, but i'm a school psychologist and I hate it. You will be "owned and operated". You will be expected to juggle heavy caseloads and work with people that you dislike. You can be fired at the drop of a hat in certain states. You can make good money as an independent contractor. I am trying to do that while I take classes toward a LPC or MFT license. You might like it though. It is not for me.

 

[singasongofjoy]

Coming from a clinical PhD program where we had a lot of overlap (in the clinic and in classes) with the PhD school psych students, I didn't perceive any of this divide and they all tended to match at fantastic sites for internship. The school and clinical faculty in my program had good relationships and often collaborated. As some have mentioned above, I could see some bristles being raised if master's level folks are using the title psychologist, because there's such a significant difference in training between master's and doctoral degrees. At any rate, your profs' attitudes are not universal.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

I think the split is more between doctoral v. non-doctoral than it is strictly clinical v. counseling. Scope of practice is a concern, as the issue of, "you don't know what you don't know" seems to come up quite a bit.

I did some of my research training with Ph.D.-level school psychologists, and it was a very positive experience. This was in contrast to my professional dealings with some (not all) non-doctorally trained school psychologists who seem to frequently push their scope of practice (mostly in regard to trying to take the place of a pediatric neuropsychologist).

This is all anecdotal and not representative of everyone, but it has happened enough it reinforces my concerns with inappropriate scope creep and purposeful confusion around training and qualifications.

 

[barryggg]

If there is any

I think the split is more between doctoral v. non-doctoral than it is strictly clinical v. counseling. Scope of practice is a concern, as the issue of, "you don't know what you don't know" seems to come up quite a bit.

You are def right on this..it's a doctoral vs. non-doctoral thing more than anything. I have to say though that when people's personal career/situation comes into play, there is rarely any objectivity. I'll give you an example. I've been in the game development industry for awhile, and when game engine editors started coming out, they were a huge plus to the industry. It became possible to make top games without having to hire mathematicians and other specialists. A lot of math people were really annoyed that their would be less need for them...and hated the idea that new developers didn't really understand all the math behind the engines. Now these same people claim that despite these editors, there are things that you can't do without knowing physics really well, that these game engine editors are limited in some aspects. (now this is despite top games coming out where these engines were used). But even more important, when you ask these people the question, could you give me some concrete examples..even one..in what ways you would be limited..well they have a similar answer to what Therapist said..you don't know what you don't know. This is another way of saying "yeah there is almost nothing..but i'm hurt this thing I had to do is become less valuable..so let's make **** up!"

 

[deleted343839]

I have to say though that when people's personal career/situation comes into play, there is rarely any objectivity.

But even more important, when you ask these people the question, could you give me some concrete examples..even one..in what ways you would be limited..well they have a similar answer to what Therapist said..you don't know what you don't know.

I agree that this does happen. It also works in the opposite direction when people equate scope of practice with breadth/depth of knowledge and expertise.

Your example with the game engine editors is a good one. There is a tension between the professions responsible for theorizing, developing, and testing the fundamentals (to the point that they are reproducible and able to be disseminated) and the professions focused more on application, who can take that know-how as a given without needing to understand it in great depth in order to do their jobs. It sounds like the mathematicians cleared a path for the game engine editors and are no longer essential all of the time because they've found some nice ways to distill and disseminate all that work.

The assumption of functional equivalence is risky in both directions. Assuming that you need a Ph.D. to provide front-line psychotherapy, for instance, is inefficient for the health care system. For instance, I refer out to LCSW and LMFT colleagues fairly often for psychotherapy because I know that they can deliver and are probably more accessible to my patients. If my needs require a more empirical orientation or special skills, though (eg, referral for complex behavioral treatment planning or comprehensive psychological assessment), I reach out to a psychologist because otherwise I risk substandard care of my patient. Fortunately, the majority of master's level therapists I know are well aware of the bounds of their competence and are happy to clarify for me what they can and cannot provide.

 

[barryggg]

I agree that this does happen. It also works in the opposite direction when people equate scope of practice with breadth/depth of knowledge and expertise.

Your example with the game engine editors is a good one. There is a tension between the professions responsible for theorizing, developing, and testing the fundamentals (to the point that they are reproducible and able to be disseminated) and the professions focused more on application, who can take that know-how as a given without needing to understand it in great depth in order to do their jobs. It sounds like the mathematicians cleared a path for the game engine editors and are no longer essential all of the time because they've found some nice ways to distill and disseminate all that work.

The assumption of functional equivalence is risky in both directions. Assuming that you need a Ph.D. to provide front-line psychotherapy, for instance, is inefficient for the health care system. For instance, I refer out to LCSW and LMFT colleagues fairly often for psychotherapy because I know that they can deliver and are probably more accessible to my patients. If my needs require a more empirical orientation or special skills, though (eg, referral for complex behavioral treatment planning or comprehensive psychological assessment), I reach out to a psychologist because otherwise I risk substandard care of my patient. Fortunately, the majority of master's level therapists I know are well aware of the bounds of their competence and are happy to clarify for me what they can and cannot provide.

I think you hit the nail on the head with the idea of tension between professions that are responsible for theorizing, developing, testing and the application folks. I've seen this over and over.

This happens in the same way within Psychology because there is clearly a research/theoretical route and a more applied route.

 

[Blankie]

Much like clinical, it seems that the closer to grad school, the more divides there are in various areas. I haven't seen that many issues out in the field, though obviously there will still be some that will have issues.

Thanks for posting this most pertinent argument. I can speak from experience on this matter since I received an MA and an EdS degree in School Psychology in a department that was split between S. Psych and Clinical/Counseling Psych. I'm now finished with another year towards my PsyD in School Psychology and this issue still comes up.

Yes, there is often antagonism between Clinical Psychs and School Psychs, but typically only in the graduate and doctoral programs. I also work as a school psychologist along with two clinical psychs practicing as school psychologist who didn't necessarily re-specialize in school psychology, but are pretty good at the conceptualization of the field. They, however, had to take an internship or field training and gain certification in s. psychology. IMO, if you choose to "cross-over" into another area of psychology, I feel you should definitely respecialize first.

In order to address the OP, I would definitely suggest to stick to your guns here. Your professor's biasness must be rooted in their own perceptions and/or security in the field. You may want to ask them point blank where they get their information. I will be practicing as a doctoral level school psychologist in a few short years and I love it! I get a lot of freedom and specialization in the field and believe that specialization within the field is likely approaching (school neuropsychologist, pediatric school psychologist, cognitive behavioral specialists, etc).

I do think that you're choosing an extremely rewarding and challenging field. It's a great thing that you already know you want your doctorate. It is at that level you will be able to do more and create more change.

Good luck to you and, remember, when you treat children in a school setting, one thing the clinical psychs don't understand as much of is the ecological (environmental) psychology of the students improvement. As a school psych, you get to see it everyday and it's first hand.

A school psychologist working in a school district can only "create change" so much as the school districts will let them. More often than not, the school districts only care about the students if their needs don't impose on those of the school district. If the school psychologist doesn't side with the district, he or she will soon learn that they are disposable to the district.

 

[Blankie]

As a school psychologist employed by the school district, Ive had special education teachers ask me to re-test students in the hope that they will "test out" because the teachers didn't want to deal with their behaviors. I've had asst. Principals push me to retest students in hopes of finding ways to exit them from special education to show that our school was exiting students. I've had groups of teachers complain when I took a stand on what was best for the students. I have been forced to do hall monitor duty after school let out. I've been forced to work in closets. If a school psych stands up for the best interest of the student and it is against the district, the district will not renew their contract.

 

[Blankie]

As a school psychologist, you will be respected by the parents, but not so much by the school you work at. You are not considered to be Admin. As such, you don't get that level of respect. The principals and asst. Principals will have nice offices with nice furniture and yours won't be as nice. Some school psychs are expected to work on shabby, scratched up furniture. The district can move you to a different school against your will with different hours that you have to work. You are expected to stay after school for MET and IEP meetings with no overtime. You have absolutely no power. If you complain, you will be paid back when your evaluation comes around; It will be written that you are not flexible and you aren't a team player.

 

[ClinicalABA]

A school psychologist working in a school district can only "create change" so much as the school districts will let them.

Organizational change, particularly in a complex system such a a public school district, is a complicated process. I spend a lot of time in schools and interface with many school psychologists. The successful ones, in my experience, show some understanding of the processes and techniques for organizational change, understand their role within the school district, and skillfully balance their clinical and ethical responsibilities to individual clients with there position as an employee of the school. Unsuccessful (or just plain despised ones) use testing of individual clients as tool for pointing out weaknesses in others. They also take on the role of educational advocate for the child, making recommendations beyond what the test results allow for. This creates confusion for the parent, "splits the team," and makes it less likely that the school psychologists' (or any mental health professional's) sound clinical recommendations will be followed in the future.

I get it- some school districts are pretty awful (usually because of trying to cheap out things in the short term). However, acting like a petulant, arrogant, brat at a team meeting, in front of parents, isn't going to change the system. Making sound recommendations not only for what's needed, but also for what's possible, while taking into account the school's primary role as a provider of education (vs. psychotherapy; family therapy, social worker, etc.), all while avoiding saying mean things about your co-workers, is ultimately a more efficient strategy for helping the individual student today and changin the system in the future.

It's a tough job, and- as others have mentioned- you're not part of admin, nor are you a teacher. Even if you are employed by the district, you need to act like a consultant. I'm fortunate now to work with some pretty good ones, and have learned from them, just as they've been open to learning from me.

 

[Blankie]

To avoid hiring more school psychs, one school district that I worked for told us that next year we will be asked to mostly just review data, and not test, so that we can handle the heavy caseloads. Your personal and professional ethics will be tried at every turn.

 

[Blankie]

To the OP, if there is one objection to becoming a school psych from your professors that you should heed the most, it is the assertion that "you will be 'owned and operated'". You will. And if you don't do what the school districts want, you will be out of a job. So much for job security. Not only has it happened to me, but it has happened to school psychs that I know of.

 

[Blankie]

Wow..

It's amazing to see I'm not the only one who experienced this. I thought nothing of it as I thought these were just "my professors."
I have been very interested in SP and even made a thread about my indecisiveness of choosing a field in psychology on this forum a while ago due to my professors telling me to forget about School Psych and that 'I'd have more options" going into Clinical/Counseling. Well I was fed up..
I don't want any more options. I don't want "prestige" either as just as the previous poster said, many people hear "school" and think you've decided to somehow lower your expectations in the field when without a doubt, I've seen how School Psychologists are one of the most looked up to professionals in the schools, they hold much status! & even if they didn't, who cares as long as it's a job you will love..
Also, the field is changing so much as we speak.. Those "old heads" don't know what they're talking about...

Here's what I'd say to them:

"they're just testing machines!" Fine. I didn't want to do therapy anyway.(unless you did)
"they're not real psychologists.." According to whom?
"you want to go into Counseling maybe and then re specialize if you want to work in schools.." So I can waste time and money, get out of here!
"schools are hiring clinical psychs now you know.." That's fine, maybe it's because they could only get jobs in the schools, why else would a Clinical Psychologist who is prestigious enough NOT to work in the schools, choose to??? I bet you they'll no longer be treated with such prestige in the schools system and they won't get more pay either for being "Clinical ".. they're going to have to drop "Clinical" and be called "School."
"you're going to be so frustrated!" And who hasn't been?????
'you'll be owned and operated.." At least I'll be secured a job, not have to worry about attracting clients, still set my own schedule and still get paid consistently..
"you can only work with children, not adults.." Ooops... didn't know when I chose SCHOOL psychology, I wouldn't be able to assess adults for Special Education!
"you'll be stuck in the schools.." Actually doctoral SP's can almost be guaranteed work in childrens hospitals, can privately do assessments AND work in academia other than schools...
"Counseling/Clinical is more prestigious.." Answered that one already...
"who's going to reimburse an SP in private practice?" people.
"you can pick up a certification, but I don't know if I'd go all the way.." All the way to becoming a competent professional for our dying educational system?????

I could remember this psychologist a while back saying to me, "you can't change or impact the educational system, it's a corrupt mess!"
All I could say was, watch me!

(By the way, I truly respect Clinical/Counseling Psychs.)

Good Luck!​

I would be remiss if I didn't point out to you that as an employee of the school district, you do NOT set your own hours. Your site supervisor, the principal, does. Sometimes they are flexible, sometimes they are not. They can refuse to approve leave for you even if it's to go to a medical appt. -it happened to me. If you want to set your own hours, the only way to do that is to be an independent contractor. As I'be said previously, that's where the money is.

And, no, you won't be affecting change. Your professors were right, the school districts are too corrupt.

 

[WisNeuro]

Ok, negative Nancy, we get it, you had a bad experience. I'm sure it sucked. I know some school psychs in certain districts who love their jobs. Ranting and broad over-generalizations are just diluting your point at this juncture.

 

[Blankie]

Ok, negative Nancy, we get it, you had a bad experience. I'm sure it sucked. I know some school psychs in certain districts who love their jobs. Ranting and broad over-generalizations are just diluting your point at this juncture.

You can shoot the messenger, but it won't change the message.

 

[WisNeuro]

When the messenger comes off as slightly unhinged, or with an axe to grind, people question the messenger and not the message. Inundation and hyperbole are not your friends here.

 

[Blankie]

When the messenger comes off as slightly unhinged, or with an axe to grind, people question the messenger and not the message. Inundation and hyperbole are not your friends here.

Slightly unhinged? Something tells me that you should know....

 

[WisNeuro]

Slightly unhinged? Something tells me that you should know....

I work in the VA, of course I should know.