Why do people recommend PA to medical students and premeds?

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Consult can appear mindless, but turn out to be challenging at time... PAs have their place in medicine, but they aren't supposed to be the first line for consult no matter how long they have been working in a specific field. It's just my opinion.

I am ok with follow up though, but I believe a physician should see the patient first for any consult...

I see where you're coming from, but I disagree. A PA who is adequately trained and knows his limitations can definitely be first line on a consult. The key is having one who knows when it's time to bump up to the physician. That knowing what you don't know part is super important, and unfortunately a lot of people don't have it.

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[niko327]

I understand that for instance a nephro PA that has been working in the field for years will probably know more than a non nephro doc, but that does not mean that PA is an expert. I am sorry, I will not consult any doc who uses PA/NP to see their consult the first time.

Hey W19, I have to respectfully disagree with you here. An experienced PA in a specialized field should be able to see a first time consult. 90% of the time, your consult is a common problem within the specialty. It's usually something you've done day in day out for years and you know exactly how your boss likes things done. 10% of the time, you'll come across something above your pay grade, in which case you get on the phone with your boss immediately and get guidance on what needs to be done next. A consultant physician uses the PA as an extension of herself especially when consultant resources are limited. That's the whole reason for hiring a PA. That's how it works. Honestly, there's very little cowboy stuff going on. Cowboys and Ninjas learn real quick or they don't stayed employed too long. This has been my experience over the last 13 years of PA work, so give it as much or as little credence as you see fit.

 

[Psai]

If a specialist sends a midlevel to handle a consult I asked from them, they will never get another referral. It's a waste of time and an insult to both me and my patient.

 

[rlbk]

I see where you're coming from, but I disagree. A PA who is adequately trained and knows his limitations can definitely be first line on a consult. The key is having one who knows when it's time to bump up to the physician. That knowing what you don't know part is super important, and unfortunately a lot of people don't have it.

I agree with this, it is absolutely essential to know your limitations and know when you may need to page the physician. To me, this seems like a no brainer. I care about my patients, so I would never feel comfortable trying to manage a case that I know is out of my scope, for their sake.

 

[rlbk]

If a specialist sends a midlevel to handle a consult I asked from them, they will never get another referral. It's a waste of time and an insult to both me and my patient.

I bet you're an absolute joy of a person to work with
Yeah, I wouldn't want to have to deal with your arrogance anyway. Waste of my time.

 

[rlbk]

I don't mean to discredit PAs/PA students by any means - several of my good friends are in PA schools and you seem to acknowledge the differences in the pre-clinical curriculum. However, at my home hospital we have a couple PA schools that send students. They work with the same attendings (sometimes with PAs/NPs), but are often sent home hours before the med students and I have yet to see one on a night or weekend shift. Also, they seem to carry a smaller patient load on inpatient rotations (I'm guessing because they're on the rotation for a shorter time, and therefore have less time to become more efficient, etc.). I'm sure different schools have different requirements, but at least from what I've seen at my institution with the few PA schools we work with, the expectations on rotations are different.

Where I live it depends on the rotation. I've had some where my hours and my case load is quite literally the exact same as the med student. But, I know for others the expectations are higher for the med students, but only regarding shifts and not the actual case load. For example in internal med, the med students will be required a whole week of overnights and the PA students only need to do two overnights. Usually the med students need to take more call too. So it varies. The length of our rotations individually are the same as the med students at the hospitals where I live (1-2 months each). Then obviously the med students have more rotation intervals in different settings.

 

[W19]

Hey W19, I have to respectfully disagree with you here. An experienced PA in a specialized field should be able to see a first time consult. 90% of the time, your consult is a common problem within the specialty. It's usually something you've done day in day out for years and you know exactly how your boss likes things done. 10% of the time, you'll come across something above your pay grade, in which case you get on the phone with your boss immediately and get guidance on what needs to be done next. A consultant physician uses the PA as an extension of herself especially when consultant resources are limited. That's the whole reason for hiring a PA. That's how it works. Honestly, there's very little cowboy stuff going on. Cowboys and Ninjas learn real quick or they don't stayed employed too long. This has been my experience over the last 13 years of PA work, so give it as much or as little credence as you see fit.

The reason to have a PA in specialties should be for follow up. Why do docs do 3+ years residency and 2-5 years fellowship then?

 

[intubesteak]

Hey all! 2nd year PA student here. Really sad for me to see such big egos from MD students here, considering those I've met on rotations have been incredibly humble, kind, and don't feel as if they're on some superior level than me. A pleasure to work with. Many of the rotations I've had have been shared with MD students, actually, with the MD student and myself doing the exact same work and reporting to the same attending physician. In fact, when the attending is pimping us, there have been many times where I knew more than the MD student. And vice versa of course.
Yeah our rotations are just as grueling as yours are, therefore, we need the same amount of prep.....so regarding PA school curriculum....daaaaaaamn it's very clear to me that none of you know jack **** about PA school lol. We learn things on a very in depth level because, um, hello, PAs are certified to diagnose and treat. Those who are saying we learn things at a surface level are really just assuming. I have tons of friends in MD and DO school and I study with them, they see my notes, I see theirs--we are essentially learning the same stuff. Please don't downplay it.

To address some of these other myths here...
First off I'm not sure why many on here think that PAs are med school rejects--I've never met a single PA student personally who even applied to med school. The PA profession is growing at an increasing rate, and many undergrads are seeking out a PA route instead of an MD/DO one.
I was pre-PA since my freshman year of college. Got my degree in neuroscience in the honors program of my university with a 4.0 GPA. Where I struggled was all of the patient care hours that are required for application. This limited the number of schools I could apply to--so I literally only applied to one school. I was nervous that I wouldn't get into PA school because there were only 30 slots so, ahem, I started studying for the MCAT to apply for med school as my backup. Yes, that's right. I ended up getting into the program though and accepted my seat ASAP because PA was what I really wanted to do. There is a massive chunk of PAs who could get into med school had it been what they wanted to go into, just as many med students could get into PA school.
What many of you here are neglecting are that there are soooo many reasons why someone would choose PA over MD/DO. I'm sorry I know it may be crazy to believe, but some of us really don't care about the "prestige" of things. I'm not sure why you all thing MD/DO is a million times better than PA so therefore it's king. Yes you're higher on the hierarchy and are able to do more, but that's not everyone's priority! I thought PA was a better choice than MD/DO, and that's just me. I wanted to get a kick start into my career more quickly and have the option of switching specialties because I have a lot of interests. I didn't want to be stuck in one aspect of medicine. Etc etc etc.
From my viewpoint, the main thing that seems to distinguish PA from MD/DO most is residency and some of the other testing you have. You also get more time in rotations so you get more electives and have a few more required rotations than we do I believe.

Bottom line-- just be humble, this circle jerk you're all having here is pretty silly and shows your insecurities. Makes it seem like you're just salty about something. Stop feeding into thhave stereotype that doctors have big egos and focus on your damn patients lol.

Bro you have no idea what you don't know.

 

[W19]

I don't mean to discredit PAs/PA students by any means - several of my good friends are in PA schools and you seem to acknowledge the differences in the pre-clinical curriculum. However, at my home hospital we have a couple PA schools that send students. They work with the same attendings (sometimes with PAs/NPs), but are often sent home hours before the med students and I have yet to see one on a night or weekend shift. Also, they seem to carry a smaller patient load on inpatient rotations (I'm guessing because they're on the rotation for a shorter time, and therefore have less time to become more efficient, etc.). I'm sure different schools have different requirements, but at least from what I've seen at my institution with the few PA schools we work with, the expectations on rotations are different.

And yet they are good to practice medicine after 1-yr of rotations but we are not after 2 years as med students... What a strange system!

 

[rlbk]

And yet they are good to practice medicine after 1-yr of rotations but we are not after 2 years as med students... What a strange system!

I agree it seems odd, let me tell you most PAs are very scared to start their first real position. But the quick churning of PAs is literally the entire reason PAs came into existence. You learn things as you go, you have to be a fast learner to be a PA. Fact of the matter is, the system works and fills in the cracks in healthcare. The need for PAs is increasing at a fast rate due to the increase in demand for health care with aging baby boomers.

 

[niko327]

The reason to have a PA in specialties should be for follow up. Why do docs do 3+ years residency and 2-5 years fellowship then?

Well honestly it's for the following reasons (in no particular order):
1. To be the expert who oversees the entire case.
2. To see the 10% of patients who are complicated in person at the bedside.
3. To review all the care and consults carried out by your resident and PA staff.
4. To attain the requisite knowledge to teach residents the basics of your specialty.
5. To train your staff PA to identify common specialty problems and initiate care according to your standard practice or make the phone call to you.
6. To supervise your staff appropriately so that the care is carried out correctly.
7. To be the final say on all care decisions, be them basic or complicated problems.
8. To be the expert resource when no one else knows what's wrong or what to do.
9. To do the complicated procedure, ie: cardiac cath, surgery, complicated IR procedure, etc.

NB: You do know that the attending is supposed to read every consult and make sure that the care plan is correct right?

 

[W19]

I agree it seems odd, let me tell you most PAs are very scared to start their first real position. But the quick churning of PAs is literally the entire reason PAs came into existence. You learn things as you go, you have to be a fast learner to be a PA. Fact of the matter is, the system works and fills in the cracks in healthcare. The need for PAs is increasing at a fast rate due to the increase in demand for health care with aging baby boomers.

I like PA and I would not hesitate to hire PA in a heartbeat... I would hire PA over NP in most cases... MD/DO students are also fast learner, but an MD without is quasi nada.

 

[rlbk]

The reason to have a PA in specialties should be for follow up. Why do docs do 3+ years residency and 2-5 years fellowship then?

Okey dokey W19, that's your opinion and you're entitled to it, but unfortunately you don't make the rules unless it's your own PA (who probably would find another physician to work with if you only let them do follow ups). You're not in charge of the PA profession. Which, by the way, was created by doctors and standards are set by them in practice. PAs do a LOT more than follow up in specialties and this isn't anything new. What I've gathered from your posts is that you don't know much about the PA profession, especially if you don't know the answer to the question you just asked.

 

[libertyyne]

And yet they are good to practice medicine after 1-yr of rotations but we are not after 2 years as med students... What a strange system!

"Practice" under supervision.

Most of the PA's do simple stuff " fast track", Algorithimic (rapid teams), H&P for admission to IM floors, Post-OP Surgical follow-up, Low acuity patients etc. None of them are doing fellowship level work unsupervised. Its like being a resident with good hours for the rest of your life.

 

[niko327]

And yet they are good to practice medicine after 1-yr of rotations but we are not after 2 years as med students... What a strange system!

It's a little bit strange I agree. I have heard others through the years advocate for medical students to be able to take the PANCE exam after the Core year of Clerkship (year III). That way they can practice in a dependent role or as a PA in case USMLE or Residency doesn't work out. The first 2 didactic years cover the entirety of PA school didactics in excess as does the completion of the Core clerkship. I don't think that's such a bad idea personally after having experienced both trainings.

 

[rlbk]

"Practice" under supervision.

Most of the PA's do simple stuff " fast track", Algorithimic (rapid teams), H&P for admission to IM floors, Post-OP Surgical follow-up, Low acuity patients etc. None of them are doing fellowship level work unsupervised.

I would not go as far to say that PAs only do simple stuff with low acuity patients. I know this for a fact because I've shadowed MANY PAs who do a hell of a lot more than that. It varies from state to state and from physician to physician. The word "under supervision" has been removed in some states and replaced with "in association". PAs are being allowed more autonomy in recent years. Which is actually good for physicians because health care demand is on the rise and you can't churn out doctors quick enough to compensate for that.

 

[W19]

Well honestly it's for the following reasons (in no particular order):
1. To be the expert who oversees the entire case.
2. To see the 10% of patients who are complicated in person at the bedside.
3. To review all the care and consults carried out by your resident and PA staff.
4. To attain the requisite knowledge to teach residents the basics of your specialty.
5. To train your staff PA to identify common specialty problems and initiate care according to your standard practice or make the phone call to you.
6. To supervise your staff appropriately so that the care is carried out correctly.
7. To be the final say on all care decisions, be them basic or complicated problems.
8. To be the expert resource when no one else knows what's wrong or what to do.

NB: You do know that the attending is supposed to read every consult and make sure that the care plan is correct right?

If the doc does not see the patient, I am not sure how he/she knows whether a case is complicated or not... Some cases have the potential to deteriorate quickly...

Anyway, when I have my doc license, I won't consult docs who send PA/NP to see the patient first. People might disagree with me, but as someone who was a nurse for 7 years, I witnessed the headache that can cause.

 

[libertyyne]

I would not go as far to say that PAs only do simple stuff with low acuity patients. I know this for a fact because I've shadowed MANY PAs who do a hell of a lot more than that. It varies from state to state and from physician to physician. The word "under supervision" has been removed in some states and replaced with "in association". PAs are being allowed more autonomy in recent years. Which is actually good for physicians because health care demand is on the rise.

In the 5 states I have been and worked in hospitals no PA was managing patients independently in a hospital. In one state they couldnt even write for medications.

 

[rlbk]

It's a little bit strange I agree. I have heard others through the years advocate for medical students to be able to take the PANCE exam after the Core year of Clerkship (year III). That way they can practice in a dependent role or as a PA in case USMLE or Residency doesn't work out. I don't think that's such a bad idea personally.

Agreed, that would make sense to me. Adding to that, there are a handful of PA-residencies that are popping up for those who want to have extra training in a certain specialty as a PA.

 

[rlbk]

If the doc does not see the patient, I am not sure how he/she knows whether a case is complicated or not... Some cases have the potential to deteriorate quickly...

Anyway, when I have my doc license, I won't consult docs who send PA/NP to see the patient first. People might disagree with me, but as someone who was a nurse for 7, I witnessed the headache that can cause.

It's called reading the chart.... lol. They'll usually take a look at it and can make a fair enough assessment off of that.
If that's what you choose to do once you have your license, that's your choice. But the fact of the matter is healthcare is always shifting and evolving, and you can only avoid it for so long before you have to just get with the program lol.

 

[niko327]

If the doc does not see the patient, I am not sure how he/she knows whether a case is complicated or not... Some cases have the potential to deteriorate quickly...

Anyway, when I have my doc license, I won't consult docs who send PA/NP to see the patient first. People might disagree with me, but as someone who was a nurse for 7 years, I witnessed the headache that can cause.

See item #5.

 

[W19]

See item #5.

Docs most of the time know what they don't know... I am not sure I can say the same thing for PA/NP though.

 

[rlbk]

Docs most of the time know what they don't know... I am not sure I can say the same thing for PA/NP though.

Considering you don't seem to know much about PA/NP or have enough experience with them, then that's why you're "not sure you can say the same". PAs most often know what they don't know, and sometimes not. Same goes for docs. The ability to know what you don't know is based more on your personality traits...if you're a overly confident person, cocky, timid, humble, etc. Not whether you're a PA/NP or a doctor.

 

[niko327]

Docs most of the time know what they don't know... I am not sure I can say the same thing for PA/NP though.

Oh I see. OK that's where we're going to diverge philosophically I think. PA school trains you to know when to punt, it's kind of part and parcel of what you signed up for. But like everyone else, you too are colored by your own experiences. I'm sure you probably saw a few cases as a nurse that make you feel the way you do. All I can say to that is, I understand your position and I acknowledge your concern. I also want to say thank you to you and everyone else for engaging in a very interesting discussion without the usual deterioration and name calling that many other similar threads have fallen prey.

 

[rg2o3]

I feel like I’m on the hill listening to a conference ran by PA lobbyists. This stuff needs to be on brochures.

 

[BorntobeDO?]

I understand that for instance a nephro PA that has been working in the field for years will probably know more than a non nephro doc, but that does not mean that PA is an expert. I am sorry, I will not consult any doc who uses PA/NP to see their consult the first time.

In practice, I think consults with PA are used as prerounding to reduce paperwork on the docs part. I haven't seen a initial consult in the hospital where the attending did not followup in less than 12 hours. So I would say that while the trust is high in PA's, most specialists are not just letting a PA do first encounters without at least looking themselves.

I will give an example that I saw alot, the Orthopods had a veteran PA that they would pay big bucks to do night call for them. His job was basically to evaluate patients and say if they needed to go 'right now' or 'in the morning.' Yes he was a first assist also and would close a decent amount, but the guy had a clear role. He wasn't replacing an attending, he was doing a job they didn't want to have to do. I don't have an issue with that at all as he is simply extending the physicians presence and allowing quicker initial consult times. I guess the question comes down to whether you think he can make that call. I am okay with it as I think he had plenty of experience to be able to ID whether grandma needed her hip done right now.

 

[BorntobeDO?]

One classmate who took both told me the GRE is a joke compared to the MCAT (old version)... He scored 95+ percentile in the GRE with minimal effort and 27 MCAT studying for almost 3 months.

I had a similar experience with both the GRE and MCAT. GRE is definitely not a hard exam. I had a SRNA (now CRNA) friend ask me about the GRE compared to the MCAT once. I pretty much laughed when he asked. I felt bad later, he had apparently struggled to get 50 percentile on the GRE, and thought it might compare to the MCAT. No it does not, not at all.

 

[libertyyne]

In practice, I think consults with PA are used as prerounding to reduce paperwork on the docs part. I haven't seen a initial consult in the hospital where the attending did not followup in less than 12 hours. So I would say that while the trust is high in PA's, most specialists are not just letting a PA do first encounters without at least looking themselves.

I will give an example that I saw alot, the Orthopods had a veteran PA that they would pay big bucks to do night call for them. His job was basically to evaluate patients and say if they needed to go 'right now' or 'in the morning.' Yes he was a first assist also and would close a decent amount, but the guy had a clear role. He wasn't replacing an attending, he was doing a job they didn't want to have to do. I don't have an issue with that at all as he is simply extending the physicians presence and allowing quicker initial consult times. I guess the question comes down to whether you think he can make that call. I am okay with it as I think he had plenty of experience to be able to ID whether grandma needed her hip done right now.

This is the model I have seen as well for a vast majority of specialties. Not a bad gig for 2 years of training.

 

[rlbk]

I had a similar experience with both the GRE and MCAT. GRE is definitely not a hard exam. I had a SRNA (now CRNA) friend ask me about the GRE compared to the MCAT once. I pretty much laughed when he asked. I felt bad later, he had apparently struggled to get 50 percentile on the GRE, and thought it might compare to the MCAT. No it does not, not at all.

Yikes....yeah they are not the same type of exam at alllll... I always thought of the GRE as like the grad school version of the SAT lol.

 

[BorntobeDO?]

Yikes....yeah they are not the same type of exam at alllll... I always thought of the GRE as like the grad school version of the SAT lol.

Thats exactly how I would describe it.

 

[W19]

I had a similar experience with both the GRE and MCAT. GRE is definitely not a hard exam. I had a SRNA (now CRNA) friend ask me about the GRE compared to the MCAT once. I pretty much laughed when he asked. I felt bad later, he had apparently struggled to get 50 percentile on the GRE, and thought it might compare to the MCAT. No it does not, not at all.

You shouldn't feel bad... these are the same people who later will say that they are better than anesthesiologists...

 

[BorntobeDO?]

You shouldn't feel bad... these are the same people who later will say that they are better than anesthesiologists...

He did become fairly militant after starting clinical's talking about CRNA only practices. He actually went to an all CRNA practice for less money in the middle of nowhere in KY. I hope he grows out of it, but that experience has changed my perspective on CRNA's for sure. On Anesthesia as well.

I used to work with both CRNA's and Anesthesiologist regularly in the pre-op and Pacu. And I only ever met one I would describe as militant prior to starting med school. The funny thing is most of them (other than that one guy) encouraged me to pursue medicine, even Anesthesiology. I never viewed any of them as wanting to be 'the doctor' other than wanting more respect.

But now I view it as a younger, and in particular male CRNA issue. The guys who went into nursing to go exclusively into CRNA. Those are the ones that think they are as knowledgable/skilled/trained w/e you like as a doctor. Honestly it is pushing me away from Anesthesia, even tho I enjoyed that aspect of my time as a nurse the most. I don't want a turf war that is mostly lost already.

 

[W19]

He did become fairly militant after starting clinical's talking about CRNA only practices. He actually went to an all CRNA practice for less money in the middle of nowhere in KY. I hope he grows out of it, but that experience has changed my perspective on CRNA's for sure. On Anesthesia as well.

I used to work with both CRNA's and Anesthesiologist regularly in the pre-op and Pacu. And I only ever met one I would describe as militant prior to starting med school. The funny thing is most of them (other than that one guy) encouraged me to pursue medicine, even Anesthesiology. I never viewed any of them as wanting to be 'the doctor' other than wanting more respect.

But now I view it as a younger, and in particular male CRNA issue. The guys who went into nursing to go exclusively into CRNA. Those are the ones that think they are as knowledgable/skilled/trained w/e you like as a doctor. Honestly it is pushing me away from Anesthesia, even tho I enjoyed that aspect of my time as a nurse the most. I don't want a turf war that is mostly lost already.

I agree with you... I wouldn't want to fight the anesthesiology battle...

 

[RNthenDoc]

I’m just throwing my unwanted 0.02 in to say:

I work in a large city, and our specialist almost always have a mid level preround, see the patient, order the basics or stabilizers from their standpoint (mostly the algorithmic stuff that any ICU worker would know), and then the doc comes by later. If they are crashing of course that mid level is going to call the cell phone of the cardiologist who’s wrapped in lead and stenting someone’s LAD, but if it’s urgent they have that trust in their mid level.

Honestly I’ve never seen a mid level or CRNA get too big for their britches in my years of practice. I think a few rotten NPs and CRNAs who wished they had went to medical school are impinging on the reputation of the solid majority of absolute professionals.

I fall into the category of an RN who was courting NP school but knew that I would be one of those people who wished they had gone to medical school... so I’m going to medical school.

From a sheer dollars and cents perspective, though, it takes a LOT less time to mint a mid level. I may even regret my decision at some point, but YOLO and all that.

As much as I don’t like independent practice, I just want all of the Med students and premeds reading this to know that the majority of midlevels I’ve encountered are sharp, helpful, caring professionals who do a great job.

 

[Deecee2DO]

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Lets not make up facts.

No ones making up facts here bud. I said 3.4-3.5 which includes 3.40-3.59 if i wasnt clear enough. DO would be 3.50-3.69. There is overlap but how can you even compare PA and MD/DO admission. MD/DO requires more pre-reqs (usually additional upper-level sciences to be considered competitive with some schools even requiring this additional coursework), higher GPAs, and the MCAT (just this exam alone craps on PA admissions and makes attempting to even compare the rigor of the two admissions as equals completely laughable).

 

[libertyyne]

No ones making up facts here bud. I said 3.4-3.5 which includes 3.40-3.59 if i wasnt clear enough. DO would be 3.50-3.69. There is overlap but how can you even compare PA and MD/DO admission. MD/DO requires more pre-reqs (usually additional upper-level sciences to be considered competitive with some schools even requiring this additional coursework), higher GPAs, and the MCAT (just this exam alone craps on PA admissions and makes attempting to even compare the rigor of the two admissions as equals completely laughable).

Let me jog your memory.

I agree @Medicine016 . To add some objective data here, I just checked up on Top 20 PA programs from last year (Duke and Emory which are in the top 5) and their incoming class GPA avg is 3.4-3.5, which is still lower than the overall DO matriculant average GPA (3.5-3.6). On top of that, you can't compare the GRE to the MCAT either which is the other admission's metric, as the MCAT is just grossly more difficult and the two tests are worlds apart both in content volume and critical thinking. Also, the pre-reqs are less for PA than MD/DO.

You stated the incoming Class GPA is 3.4-3.5- This is incorrect. The incoming class GPA was 3.5-3.8 for cumulative for Duke and 3.57 average for Emory. This is not being able to do math at best, and trying to be deceptive at worst.
The average science gpa of Emory is 3.51 which is actually higher than the DO 3.45. The middle 50th percentile is for duke is 3.4-3.8.

You said this was somehow lower than DO matriculant. DO matriculant average GPA is 3.54 you are going to tell someone that it is lower than 3.57 for emory which your post implied.
I never said anything about the MCAT or GRE in that post, but if you want to really compare that how about this information.
The average MCAT score is 500 with a Standard deviation of 10 for all MCAT takers.

The average MCAT score of a DO matriculant is a 502 with a standard Deviation of 5.56 . That means 78% of people who take the mcat are within 2 standard deviations of the DO mean. And 60 % of people who take the mcat have a score high enough to be within middle of the pack DO matriculants. In other words only 22% of people who take the mcat would have scores soo low that they would be below 95% of scores that were accepted. I would hardly be hanging my hat on that.

You dont have to misrepresent things to make a point. DO's have 4 years of school and atleast 3 years of residency to PA's 2 years of school. That is a big difference in training.

 

[Deecee2DO]

Let me jog your memory.


You stated the incoming Class GPA is 3.4-3.5- This is incorrect. The incoming class GPA was 3.5-3.8 for cumulative for Duke and 3.57 average for Emory. This is not being able to do math at best, and trying to be deceptive at worst.
You said this was somehow lower than DO matriculant. DO matriculant average GPA is 3.54 you are going to tell someone that it is lower than 3.57 for emory which your post implied.
I never said anything about the MCAT or GRE in that post, but if you want to really compare that how about this information.
The average MCAT score is 500 with a Standard deviation of 10 for all MCAT takers.

The average MCAT score of a DO matriculant is a 502 with a standard Deviation of 5.56 . That means 78% of people who take the mcat are within 2 standard deviations of the DO mean. And 60 % of people who take the mcat have a score high enough to be within middle of the pack DO matriculants. In other words only 22% of people who take the mcat would have scores soo low that they would be below 95% of scores that were accepted. I would hardly be hanging my hat on that.
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Im borderline ******ed in math; Thanks captain obvious. Regardless, PA school and MD/DO school admission are not even close in rigor. MD>DO>>>PA. Period.

 

[KnuxNole]

I understand that for instance a nephro PA that has been working in the field for years will probably know more than a non nephro doc, but that does not mean that PA is an expert. I am sorry, I will not consult any doc who uses PA/NP to see their consult the first time.

You won't like my hospital, where 1/3 of the specialist will have the NP see the patient first for a consult. Same for a medicine consult, usually the NP will see the patient.

 

[Deecee2DO]

Emory is one of the best PA programs in the US. So the top PA applicant somewhat has similar profile (i.e. stats) to a bottom DO applicant... Not to mention that the GRE is a joke compared to the MCAT.

Literally. An actual joke compared to the MCAT

 

[Cranjis McBasketball]

Most professional tests dont seem to really compare to the MCAT. I took the DAT as well and it didnt compare to the MCAT

 

[TheIllusionist]

Most professional tests dont seem to really compare to the MCAT. I took the DAT as well and it didnt compare to the MCAT

Yeah LSAT is the only one I'd compare as heavier on reasoning.

 

[HelpMeFailedStep1]

I can't let this go. Have you ever talked to a PA program director? The PA school at my school has taken people who quit med school after a year cause they decided the PA route was better for them. They made them (the med dropouts) put an app together to do it and applied like everyone else, but they took them. At one point I even considered this as my advisor (who was a physician that taught more in the PA program) was encouraging me to do this.

I look at your posts and just see fear and defeat. Can't get 1k of clinical hours? Are you kidding me? Thats 6 months full time! WTH else do you have to do! You need a job anyway. Go be a tech or scribe. Surely having done two years of medical school you have the ability to be a scribe.

.

 

[TheIllusionist]

What PA school takes failed out medical students?

Because any PA school that is accredited (not new, probationary etc)


When i left medical school i contacted all the PA schools and they all said the same thing SORRY

Plus most PA schools need a GRE score and will NOT take my passing Step 1 score

So PA schools want me to take the MCAT despite passing Step 1, is that a joke?

Talk about defeat? Let's talk about being realistic. Even 1 year BSN nursing programs wont even LOOK at my Step 1 score as part of my application.

Also speaking about a job, i worked as a vet tech at two different hospitals because of the MUCH higher pay than EMT/Scribe work. That's how i supported myself.

Also I failed out in 2008 and took time off, went to the Carribean AND THEN passed Step 1 in 2018 ten years later. That is also a huge problem with my application according to the countless advisors I have spoken with. That is a HUGE issue as all my science courses were taken when I was in my first two years of undergrad (transferred tons of credits from night classes i took in high school and from AP classes). Many PA/Accelerated BSN/Pharm schools want me to retake basic bio, ochem, physics, and even calculus. Ive proven my knowledge in medicine with my passing Step 1 score yet this is ignored.

The only schools that would even consider me are the non-accredited brand new schools or those schools under probationary accred.

I am scared to put tons of money into PA school and then not be allowed to take the board exam or be forced to apply for a job from a school that no longer is accredited or even no longer accepts any new PA students.

Please suggest to me some schools that take failed medical students, if you dont want to say what school you go to please pm me

I am dead serious if it is an option and i can find a school that would take me I will do it.

I am not some bum I have been working my butt off to pay off my loans and refuse to study for the MCAT because Step 1 trumps the MCAT in all aspects. People that take the MCAT aspire to go to medical school, pass M1 and M2 AND THEN pass step 1.

Thanks

Take the tests you need to take. You can change the rules, when you're in power. When you're not, you have to work within the system.Good luck.

 

[Cranjis McBasketball]

What PA school takes failed out medical students?

Because any PA school that is accredited (not new, probationary etc)

When i left medical school i contacted all the PA schools and they all said the same thing SORRY

Plus most PA schools need a GRE score and will NOT take my passing Step 1 score

So PA schools want me to take the MCAT despite passing Step 1, is that a joke?

Talk about defeat? Let's talk about being realistic. Even 1 year BSN nursing programs wont even LOOK at my Step 1 score as part of my application.

Also speaking about a job, i worked as a vet tech at two different hospitals because of the MUCH higher pay than EMT/Scribe work. That's how i supported myself.

Also I failed out in 2008 and took time off, went to the Carribean AND THEN passed Step 1 in 2018 ten years later. That is also a huge problem with my application according to the countless advisors I have spoken with. That is a HUGE issue as all my science courses were taken when I was in my first two years of undergrad (transferred tons of credits from night classes i took in high school and from AP classes). Many PA/Accelerated BSN/Pharm schools want me to retake basic bio, ochem, physics, and even calculus. Ive proven my knowledge in medicine with my passing Step 1 score yet this is ignored.

The only schools that would even consider me are the non-accredited brand new schools or those schools under probationary accred.

I am scared to put tons of money into PA school and then not be allowed to take the board exam or be forced to apply for a job from a school that no longer is accredited or even no longer accepts any new PA students.

Please suggest to me some schools that take failed medical students, if you dont want to say what school you go to please pm me

I am dead serious if it is an option and i can find a school that would take me I will do it.

I am not some bum I have been working my butt off to pay off my loans and refuse to study for the MCAT because Step 1 trumps the MCAT in all aspects. People that take the MCAT aspire to go to medical school, pass M1 and M2 AND THEN pass step 1.

Thanks

Podiatry school bro. They are thirsty for applicants, and the career is actually pretty cool

@GypsyHummus

 

[mehc012]

Some of you need a little bit of brushing up on the PA profession it seems..... and a slice of humble pie lol.
As PAs, we know that our level of expertise is beneath a physician. But if you talk to many actual physicians working now, not still in school, they will likely tell you that they trust their PA to make all of the right decisions and they won't need to do anything but sign off the orders. Makes it easier on the docs because they have more time to focus on other patients/other things that need to be done. It's teamwork!

I worked with PAs and docs both when I was scribing in the ED. You're absolutely right, that with experienced PAs, the docs trusted them to make the right decisions and usually only laid eyes on a PA patients once or twice in a shift - usually when the PA asked for another opinion and talked through the patient with the doc. However, the reason that it worked was because there are 2 very important categories of decisions that the PAs were being trusted to make, that you are leaving out: the decision of which patients to see, and the decision, rarely made but always important, of when the patient would benefit from having care transferred to the doc. Throw in 'when to double check a decision with the doc' for good measure.

When a fresh-out-of-school PA started training in our ED, the docs would look over her patients constantly, reading almost every chart at first. The learning curve for her was...steep, and at the beginning, she absolutely could not be trusted to make the right decisions, on any level. Same as people partway through their medical training, only ostensibly she was ready for practice, having finished PA requirements.

PAs are valuable and competent providers. However, they do not have all of the expertise of the docs and part of what makes a good PA is learning to recognize their strengths and limitations and where they best fit into the workflow of any given practice. You claim to recognize the difference between docs and PAs, but you speak as if ignoring that difference is what makes a good PA. It's not. It's accepting it. I'd advise working on that.

 

[libertyyne]

I think a more interesting question is that if Midlevels are able to function independently and have similar patient outcomes, does physician training need to be blown up? NPs are practicing independently in 20+ states with online MS degrees and 500 hours of clinical rotations. At what point is a Physicians training experiencing diminishing marginal returns for 4years 2000 Hours of clinical rotations and 6000-14000 hours during residency training and fellowship.

 

[DO2015CA]

I think a more interesting question is that if Midlevels are able to function independently and have similar patient outcomes, does physician training need to be blown up? NPs are practicing independently in 20+ states with online MS degrees and 500 hours of clinical rotations. At what point is a Physicians training experiencing diminishing marginal returns for 4years 2000 Hours of clinical rotations and 6000-14000 hours during residency training and fellowship.

They aren't seeing diminishing returns. Take the physician coverage away from those solo midlevel studies and then come talk.

If **** hits the wall at 3am in a rural hospital Im working at, I want to know that I am the best prepared to handle whatever happens.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

I think a more interesting question is that if Midlevels are able to function independently and have similar patient outcomes, does physician training need to be blown up? NPs are practicing independently in 20+ states with online MS degrees and 500 hours of clinical rotations. At what point is a Physicians training experiencing diminishing marginal returns for 4years 2000 Hours of clinical rotations and 6000-14000 hours during residency training and fellowship.

Do they have similar outcomes though? This topic has been discussed as nauseum here. The studies showing equivalence are not very good and measure nebulous things like blood pressure or a1c. I don’t think anyone would argue a well-trained midlevel can’t follow clinical guidelines and keep a patient’s bp wnl. That doesn’t mean they’re equivalent.

 

[libertyyne]

Do they have similar outcomes though? This topic has been discussed as nauseum here. The studies showing equivalence are not very good and measure nebulous things like blood pressure or a1c. I don’t think anyone would argue a well-trained midlevel can’t follow clinical guidelines and keep a patient’s bp wnl. That doesn’t mean they’re equivalent.

Even if they arent very good, People should be able to do good studies now considering complete autonomy in many states over the past decade. Plus if the effect size is soo large it should become obvious even in not great studies.

They aren't seeing diminishing returns. Take the physician coverage away from those solo midlevel studies and then come talk.

If **** hits the wall at 3am in a rural hospital Im working at, I want to know that I am the best prepared to handle whatever happens.

That has happened in rural hospitals and I am yet to see any studies indicating that they are killing people left and right.

Plus insurance premiums should also going through the roof for NPs if this was truely the case. We have too many checkpoints with little to show at this point in terms of superiority besides pointing towards training. But does the training even matter if there are no outcome differences.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Even if they arent very good, People should be able to do good studies now considering complete autonomy in many states over the past decade. Plus if the effect size is soo large it should become obvious even in not great studies.

The few studies I’ve read have shown that they order more tests, consult more, and in some cases prescribe more abx (though I’ve seen some studies that don’t show that last one). I’ve seen a few that show equivalent care is only there when compared to physicians with higher acuity and larger patient loads.

Anecdotally, I have seen midlevels perform well when patients are relatively straightforward, but they typically find themselves out of their element when things get more complicated or atypical. Which makes sense given the gap in knowledge.

I really just don’t get how anyone would trust someone with a quarter of the training to do the same job independently.