Why do people say that it's hard to get into medical school?

[RichGang]

For MD medical schools, yes it is very difficult, and for a damn good reason (who wants an underqualified doctor)? But for lower end DO schools like Burrell and some others people with 19 mcats (19.6 percentile) and 3.4 gpas can get in. When schools like that exist how can one possibly say it's hard to get in?

There's also podiatry for those who can't do that.

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[Lannister]

Because when they say medical school is hard to get into, they're usually referring to MD schools. And anyone who gets in with a 19 MCAT, MD or DO, is an outlier.

 

[RichGang]

Because when they say medical school is hard to get into, they're usually referring to MD schools. And anyone who gets in with a 19 MCAT, MD or DO, is an outlier.

Check the school threads for Burrell college of medicine, AT SOMA, The one in kentucky, and a few others and you'll see it's more the norm than an outlier.

 

[Lannister]

Check the school threads for Burrell college of medicine, AT SOMA, The one in kentucky, and a few others and you'll see it's more the norm than an outlier.

I'm not familiar with DO schools or this school in general, but if they're really accepting many applicants with MCATs that low, it's probably not a very good school.

 

[Goro]

I'm at a DO school, and we get some 6-7000 apps these days.

We interview ~500

We accept ~250-350

We seat ~100.

You do the math.

For MD medical schools, yes it is very difficult, and for a damn good reason (who wants an underqualified doctor)? But for lower end DO schools like Burrell and some others people with 19 mcats (19.6 percentile) and 3.4 gpas can get in. When schools like that exist how can one possibly say it's hard to get in?

 

[Officer Farva]

I hope this doesn't evolve into a MD vs. DO thread. Anyway, I think what people mean is that getting into the school you want or the location you want is difficult. I know people who turned down MD acceptances for jobs in more desirable locations or for PhD programs at top 5 programs in nice cities, because that MD acceptance was in the middle of nowhere.

 

[deleted407021]

It isn't easy to get into DO schools. Especially with the number of apps we're seeing these days and with the average MCAT score/matriculant increasing each year.

 

[Lannister]

Anyway, I think what people mean is that getting into the school you want or the location you want is difficult.

I really don't think that's what they mean. Something like 47% of people who apply don't get into any school at all, let alone their dream school or one in an ideal location for them.

 

[frosted_flake]

I'm at a DO school, and we get some 6-7000 apps these days.

We interview ~500

We accept ~250-350

We seat ~100.

You do the math.

Hey @Goro, quick question. I am sure it is the same for allopathic schools as well, but how many apps do you receive that have no business applying to your (or any) school? Is it a surprising amount?

 

[Goro]

I think it's closer to 60% don't get accepted. Now to be fair, I'd estimate that ~50% of them have no business setting foot on a med school campus, except as a standardized patient.

The same profile holds true for Faculty job applicants!

I really don't think that's what they mean. Something like 47% of people who apply don't get into any school at all, let alone their dream school or one in an ideal location for them.

 

[Lannister]

I think it's closer to 60% don't get accepted. Now to be fair, I'd estimate that ~50% of them have no business setting foot on a med school campus, except as a standardized patient.

LOL total math fail right there. I thought I read that 43% got accepted somewhere and decided that 43+47=100. Sorry.

 

[RichGang]

It isn't easy to get into DO schools. Especially with the number of apps we're seeing these days and with the average MCAT score/matriculant increasing each year.

What about the schools I mentioned?

I'm at a DO school, and we get some 6-7000 apps these days.

We interview ~500

We accept ~250-350

We seat ~100.

You do the math.

You speak the truth, your school is definitely leagues better than the ones I mentioned though. I'm mainly talking about the ones I mentioned. Burrell is ****ing scary.

 

[Goro]

It may be easier to get into a new school, but as time goes on, and the fear of a new program is eased, the newer schools also become harder to get into, to a degree. There are people who simply will not want to go to school in rural AL or KY, for example.

What about the schools I mentioned?


You speak the truth, your school is definitely leagues better than the ones I mentioned though. I'm mainly talking about the ones I mentioned. Burrell is ****ing scary.

 

[Dr. Death]

For MD medical schools, yes it is very difficult, and for a damn good reason (who wants an underqualified doctor)? But for lower end DO schools like Burrell and some others people with 19 mcats (19.6 percentile) and 3.4 gpas can get in. When schools like that exist how can one possibly say it's hard to get in?

There's also podiatry for those who can't do that.

Because people are stupid. And everything is hard when you are stupid. And without knowing the average accepted MCAT and GPA of their classes I am going to go ahead and say that 19 MCATs aren't the norm as you stated in your other post.

 

[RichGang]

Because people are stupid. And everything is hard when you are stupid. And without knowing the average accepted MCAT and GPA of their classes I am going to go ahead and say that 19 MCATs aren't the norm as you stated in your other post.

Burrell's is, as is AT SOMA, and the kentucky thread, check the school thread

 

[IlDestriero]

Medical school is difficult to get into. Think about all the people that start in college as "Pre Med". The premed club table is the busiest one during freshman orientation. Engineers, science majors, physiology, musicians, etc. they all want to be on the premed pathway. Then reality sets in. Of all of those hundreds of thousands of dreamers only 85k or so take the MCAT every year, some of which (many?) are repeat takers. The mean (old) score is 25, which won't give much of a chance anywhere. Of that group of 85k only about half apply, and of that group less than half are successful in getting an acceptance.
So one could say that many applicants are weak to start and nearly 1/2 the applicants are successful, so it's not that hard, especially if you're a pretty good candidate. And that's true. Apply with a 3.6+ and 31+ and you're in pretty good shape, but you're ~1 SD greater than the mean. Your chances should be pretty good.
However the reality is that there is massive self selection at every step of the way. People don't have the grades, can't handle the science classes, bomb the MCAT, lose motivation, etc.
Then others are lured away by easier careers.
Very few that take the first step finish the marathon.
That self selection continues at the residency and fellowship level as well.
However, the journey of 1000 miles begins with a single step, so get to steppin'.

 

[IslandStyle808]

I'm not familiar with DO schools or this school in general, but if they're really accepting many applicants with MCATs that low, it's probably not a very good school.

Funny you say this because 10 years back even the well known DO schools (ex. KCUMB, DMU, etc.) had average MCAT scores of 25.

 

[RichGang]

Funny you say this because 10 years back even the well known DO schools (ex. KCUMB, DMU, etc.) had average MCAT scores of 25.

That's still not as low as 19. 19 mcats are the equivalent of basically accepting anyone with a pulse.

 

[Lannister]

Funny you say this because 10 years back even the well known DO schools (ex. KCUMB, DMU, etc.) had average MCAT scores of 25.

Sorry, I'm sick and my brain is a little foggy, what exactly do you mean by this comment?

 

[IslandStyle808]

That's still not as low as 19. 19 mcats are the equivalent of basically accepting anyone with a pulse.

You do realize the average MCAT for Burrell is 25 currently?

 

[deleted407021]

That's still not as low as 19. 19 mcats are the equivalent of basically accepting anyone with a pulse.

No, it's not. Many of those students with such scores are URM. Meaning it's understood that they have lower than average scores quite frequently, due to different privileges.

 

[IslandStyle808]

Sorry, I'm sick and my brain is a little foggy, what exactly do you mean by this comment?

It means that most schools will try to pick the best applicants possible (unless mission oriented). So if the best applicants only have a 25, then that is who they are going to take. It is true for all schools.

 

[RichGang]

You do realize the average MCAT for Burrell is 25 currently?

That still doesn't change the fact they admitted many students with sub 20 mcats, and one with a ****ing 16. Of course the average is skewed and artificially inflated to be high they overadmitted like nobody's business because they're like nobody's top choice.

 

[Lannister]

It means that most schools will try to pick the best applicants possible (unless mission oriented). So if the best applicants only have a 25, then that is who they are going to take. It is true for all schools.

...Okay? Sorry I'm not sure how this relates to what I said. If a school picks the best applicants available to it, and it's picking many students with MCAT scores of 19, then one might conclude that it is not a very good school.

 

[deleted407021]

It means that most schools will try to pick the best applicants possible (unless mission oriented). So if the best applicants only have a 25, then that is who they are going to take. It is true for all schools.

And that's why we see variations in accepted GPAs/MCATs -- it depends on the scores of the greatest proportion of people who apply to any given school.

 

[thatwouldbeanarchy]

Also, if new schools like Burrell are willing to accept applicants with lower than average MCAT scores, I would imagine that would actually make them incredibly competitive. I'm sure there is an insane number of applicants each year with scores that are just way too low to get an acceptance anywhere. Can you imagine how many people are potentially vying for one of the 150 spots at a school like Burrell? Many people will be scared off by the fact that it's a brand new school but others will apply because it's likely their only shot.

 

[Mansamusa]

It's easy to get into a Carib school, but that doesn't mean things will work out the way those students plan. It's likely that someone getting into med school with a 19 will not be taking coveted residency spots.

In the end, if someone passes the licensing exam and graduates, they should have the knowledge to be a doctor. I would be more concerned about bad residency programs or residency programs that take students who are not fit to be doctors.

It is hard to get youself to the point that you have freedom to have the career you want

 

[Terry Toma]

You might as well argue that getting rich is easy because people get rich just by buying a $2 lotto ticket. Do a few low stats applicants get in somewhere every year? Sure. But that doesn't mean that it's easy to get in with low stats.

A 19/3.4 student is throwing a hail Mary when they decide to apply to med school. A few dozen of those hail Marys will be completed. A few thousand will not.

 

[IslandStyle808]

...Okay? Sorry I'm not sure how this relates to what I said. If a school picks the best applicants available to it, and it's picking many students with MCAT scores of 19, then one might conclude that it is not a very good school.

There was a point where KCUMB had an average MCAT of 25. So this would mean that there were people that had scores in the 22 range and a rare few that could be at a 20. So would you call this 100 year old school a bad school simple because it picked people with a sub-par MCAT?

 

[RichGang]

Also, if new schools like Burrell are willing to accept applicants with lower than average MCAT scores, I would imagine that would actually make them incredibly competitive. I'm sure there is an insane number of applicants each year with scores that are just way too low to get an acceptance anywhere. Can you imagine how many people are potentially vying for one of the 150 spots at a school like Burrell? Many people will be scared off by the fact that it's a brand new school but others will apply because it's likely their only shot.

They overadmitted so many people and their waitlist is still running dry, it honestly seems like the kind of place you get awarded an acceptance for for just showing up to the interview. When there are like 5 DO schools that do this, its not that competitive because those with those scores can get in.

 

[RichGang]

There was a point where KCUMB had an average MCAT of 25. So this would mean that there were people that had scores in the 22 range and a rare few that could be at a 20. So would you call this 100 year old school a bad school simple because it picked people with a sub-par MCAT?

that's not a 19 or 16

 

[Lannister]

There was a point where KCUMB had an average MCAT of 25. So this would mean that there were people that had scores in the 22 range and a rare few that could be at a 20. So would you call this 100 year old school a bad school simple because it picked people with a sub-par MCAT?

No. Like I said, I know nothing about any DO schools. I was going off the information that I had at the time, which was that this school supposedly accepted many people with sub-20 MCATs.

 

[Lawpy]

For MD medical schools, yes it is very difficult, and for a damn good reason (who wants an underqualified doctor)? But for lower end DO schools like Burrell and some others people with 19 mcats (19.6 percentile) and 3.4 gpas can get in. When schools like that exist how can one possibly say it's hard to get in?

There's also podiatry for those who can't do that.

MD schools are inherently very competitive and difficult to get into because (in no particular order):

1. MD schools are established and have a very strong support system

2. MD schools are governed by very strict and powerful regulatory body. Northstate is a very bizarre exception

3. MD schools have a lot of resources

4. MD schools are favored by history (there wasn't a secession and reabsorption involved)

5. MD schools have good clinical rotations quality

6. MD schools are very very strict on academic requirements (they average grade retakes and have high MCAT medians)

7. MD schools are also strict on developing well-rounded candidates to become exceptional doctors

And there are many more reasons. That is why having an MD acceptance is incredibly valuable regardless of what tiers you are applying to. The MD application process is very stressful and draining.

I can't speak about DO and podiatry schools because i am very ignorant on that topic (and besides, you asked this question on preallo and not preosteo)

 

[IslandStyle808]

that's not a 19 or 16

You are making that assessment based off of a 1 point difference. I don't know how you got the 16? The lowest I recall was a 17.

 

[RichGang]

MD schools are inherently very competitive and difficult to get into because (in no particular order):

1. MD schools are established and have a very strong support system

2. MD schools are governed by very strict and powerful regulatory body. Northstate is a very bizarre exception

3. MD schools have a lot of resources

4. MD schools are favored by history (there wasn't a secession and reabsorption involved)

5. MD schools have good clinical rotations quality

6. MD schools are very very strict on academic requirements (they average grade retakes and have high MCAT medians)

7. MD schools are also strict on developing well-rounded candidates to become exceptional doctors

And there are many more reasons. That is why having an MD acceptance is incredibly valuable regardless of what tiers you are applying to. The MD application process is very stressful and draining.

I can't speak about DO and podiatry schools because i am very ignorant on that topic (and besides, you asked this question on preallo and not preosteo)

Yea, I went through the process for MDs and thankfully got a MD acceptance. Lower tier DOs on the other hand are scary. Good DOs are competitive, but places like i mentioned just aint.

 

[RichGang]

You are making that assessment based off of a 1 point difference. I don't know how you got the 16? The lowest I recall was a 17.

Check the school thread. There's a 16. It's not just a one point difference look at that percentiles of the old mcat. a 19 mcat is like a 19.6%. Most people score higher than that on their first assessment without any prep. That's the kind of score you have to try to get to do that low and that's the score burrell is admitting readily. you dont have to look far to see how easy this makes the process, and the ridiculousness of this.

When you're scoring in the bottom 19 percentile I seriously question your ability to succeed in med school, but the fact that gets accepted makes the process way easier.

 

[Lawpy]

Yea, I went through the process for MDs and thankfully got a MD acceptance. Lower tier DOs on the other hand are scary. Good DOs are competitive, but places like i mentioned just aint.

I'd hazard a guess that DO schools that are crap aren't following any of the criteria that i listed above.

 

[RichGang]

I'd hazard a guess that DO schools that are crap aren't following any of the criteria that i listed above.

Bingo. Say what you want about places like CNU, but at least they don't pull this sort of ****.

 

[IslandStyle808]

No. Like I said, I know nothing about any DO schools. I was going off the information that I had at the time, which was that this school supposedly accepted many people with sub-20 MCATs.

Schools could just as easily pick people with 19 MCATs if that one of their better applicants. The is the point I am referring to. It is a mission oriented school so there will be those 19 MCATs at first, but it will rise as the school gets better. Most DO schools start out with averages of around 25-26 (there will be those with a sub-par MCAT).

You can't base how good a school is off a score. There were excellent schools that had low averages in the past and now with increased competition get their pick of excellent applicants. I say this for MD or DO schools.

 

[thatwouldbeanarchy]

They overadmitted so many people and their waitlist is still running dry, it honestly seems like the kind of place you get awarded an acceptance for for just showing up to the interview. When there are like 5 DO schools that do this, its not that competitive because those with those scores can get in.

If that's the case, (and I'm not sure how you know any of this) then these schools are no different than the Carib. Anyone can get in but whether they'll actually succeed in becoming physicians remains to be seen. I'm not sure what the point of your initial post was other than to start an MD/DO flame war but perhaps this conversation belongs in Pre-Osteo.

Also, I don't understand why you keep saying that low-tier schools are "scary." All they're doing is giving low stats applicants a chance at becoming doctors. Once those applicants are accepted, it's on them to pass the board exams and match into residencies. No one is handing out free tickets to doctorland.

 

[Lannister]

Schools could just as easily pick people with 19 MCATs if that one of their better applicants. The is the point I am referring to. It is a mission oriented school so there will be those 19 MCATs at first, but it will rise as the school gets better. Most DO schools start out with averages of around 25-26 (there will be those with a sub-par MCAT).

You can't base how good a school is off a score. There were excellent schools that had low averages in the past and now with increased competition get their pick of excellent applicants. I say this for MD or DO schools.

To be honest if someone scores a 19 on the MCAT, I would seriously question their ability to pass the boards, no matter how good the other parts of their application are. It seems to me that accepting applicants with sub-2o MCATs is a huge risk to the applicant and the school.

 

[IslandStyle808]

Check the school thread. There's a 16. It's not just a one point difference look at that percentiles of the old mcat. a 19 mcat is like a 19.6%. Most people score higher than that on their first assessment without any prep. That's the kind of score you have to try to get to do that low and that's the score burrell is admitting readily. you dont have to look far to see how easy this makes the process, and the ridiculousness of this.

When you're scoring in the bottom 19 percentile I seriously question your ability to succeed in med school, but the fact that gets accepted makes the process way easier.

The statistics show that a person below a 24 MCAT will not succeed in medical school. However, medical schools will fill their seats no matter what, even if it means picking a person with a 19 MCAT (I am speaking theoretically).

I believe they extremely under estimated themselves when picking applicants and that is why you see these sub 20 scores. The averages will be higher next year, just like any new school.

 

[IslandStyle808]

To be honest if someone scores a 19 on the MCAT, I would seriously question their ability to pass the boards, no matter how good the other parts of their application are. It seems to me that accepting applicants with sub-2o MCATs is a huge risk to the applicant and the school.

As mentioned above, having an MCAT below a 24 is at high risk of failing out of medial school. However, schools will still defy that statistic whether it be for mission or it is the best applicant they can find.

 

[Lannister]

As mentioned above, having an MCAT below a 24 is at high risk of failing out of medial school. However, schools will still defy that statistic whether it be for mission or it is the best applicant they can find.

Okay, I'm not denying that, but again, if someone who has a 19 MCAT and will probably not be able to pass the boards to actually become a doctor is literally "the best applicant they can find", how is that not reflective of the quality of the school?? Good schools attract good applicants.
Just to clarify I have no idea which school we're actually talking about.

 

[Dustbowl12]

Burrell's is, as is AT SOMA, and the kentucky thread, check the school thread

burrell avg are 25 and 3.5. low mcat bc its brand new...avg do is 27-28 mcat...idk where ur getting stats from

 

[RichGang]

If that's the case, (and I'm not sure how you know any of this) then these schools are no different than the Carib. Anyone can get in but whether they'll actually succeed in becoming physicians remains to be seen. I'm not sure what the point of your initial post was other than to start an MD/DO flame war but perhaps this conversation belongs in Pre-Osteo.

Also, I don't understand why you keep saying that low-tier schools are "scary." All they're doing is giving low stats applicants a chance at becoming doctors. Once those applicants are accepted, it's on them to pass the board exams and match into residencies. No one is handing out free tickets to doctorland.

I say they're scary because would you really want someone in the bottom 19% of the mcat to be your doctor? that's failing the ****ing test.

The statistics show that a person below a 24 MCAT will not succeed in medical school. However, medical schools will fill their seats no matter what, even if it means picking a person with a 19 MCAT (I am speaking theoretically).

I believe they extremely under estimated themselves when picking applicants and that is why you see these sub 20 scores. The averages will be higher next year, just like any new school.

then they shouldn't be picking these people otherwise their retention rates of students is going to be low like the Caribbean

burrell avg are 25 and 3.5. low mcat bc its brand new...avg do is 27-28 mcat...idk where ur getting stats from

i'm reading between the lines, looking at the school thread, and you have to recognize this: the average is skewed and artificially inflated to be high they overadmitted like nobody's business.

 

[Dustbowl12]

I say they're scary because would you really want someone in the bottom 19% of the mcat to be your doctor? that's failing the ****ing test.


then they shouldn't be picking these people otherwise their retention rates of students is going to be low like the Caribbean


i'm reading between the lines, looking at the school thread, and you have to recognize this: the average is skewed and artificially inflated to be high they overadmitted like nobody's business.

you are grossly exaggerating and misguiding (perhaps innocently) people here....

their waitlist isnt running dry. they havent even gone through the DA list yet...

most schools accept 2-2.5 times their class size.

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

Funny you say this because 10 years back even the well known DO schools (ex. KCUMB, DMU, etc.) had average MCAT scores of 25.

Today there are a ton of schools is the 29-30 range (CCOM, AZCOM, TOURO NY, KCUMB, DMU) With a ton of schools at a 28 also (NYITCOM, NSUCOM, PCOM?, Western)

 

[Dustbowl12]

the do averages are rising every year, many do schools have hit and passed 30.

new schools usually start at 25-26 and climb after a few years

ucr md is still accepting 21-24 mcats which is low for MD standard, but their overall average is higher...

you will always have some lower stat applicants bc of URM, and especially if its a newer school


@RichGang

 

[RichGang]

you are grossly exaggerating and misguiding (perhaps innocently) people here....

their waitlist isnt running dry. they havent even gone through the DA list yet...

most schools accept 2-2.5 times their class size.

their deferred list is done, and the estimates of their waitlist show it has gone through a lot. say what you will other ppl posted that. if you have proof otherwise, state it and show an actual source.