Why does every specialty more open to DOs than IMGs except for surgical subspecialties?

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CCmetal94

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According to NRMP PD survey just about every specialty is significantly more likely to rank/Interview DOs than US-IMGs except surg specialties like NS and ENT. Why is this?

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According to NRMP PD survey just about every specialty is significantly more likely to rank/Interview DOs than US-IMGs except surg specialties like NS and ENT. Why is this?

Do you think this shouldn't be the case? Just curious.
Do you have the link to the survey?
 
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Do you think this shouldn't be the case? Just curious.
Do you have the link to the survey?
I'm just curious to why this is the case. It's my understanding that a lot of DO bias comes from the fact that DO schools take less competitive applicants and have less structured clinical rotations. But don't Carrib schools take even less competitive applicants and have worse clinical sites?

What about DO schools makes PDs of surgical specialty programs less fond of them than Carrib grads?


Link:. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...WiTHyYMb_gcWoN7og&sig2=bwbuwgj9mV3zgUDsrnrEeg
 
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My thoughts (and guess) are this. All surgical specialties are very competitive so it's hard for any normal DO or Carribean grad to match into them. But I believe there are MDs/MBBSs from countries such as UK, Australia, Canada etc that have extensive research and maybe PhDs from good institutions that make them stellar candidates. This is why the surgical specialties looks like it's favored to IMGs. I think in the normal sense DO > Carrib grads, but because so few DO/Carribs match into them, the few exceptional IMGs from other places that do match into them skew the numbers in favor of them.
 
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Selection. A DO applying for ENT or NS in the ACGME match is crazy when they have significantly higher chances in the AOA match. So many ACGME programs haven't had a DO in those fields for decades and thus they have higher opinions of IMGs who do apply than people who never apply.
 
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According to NRMP PD survey just about every specialty is significantly more likely to rank/Interview DOs than US-IMGs except surg specialties like NS and ENT. Why is this?

DOs and US-IMGs had similar results in IM as well last time I looked at that survey.
 
I'm just curious to why this is the case. It's my understanding that a lot of DO bias comes from the fact that DO schools take less competitive applicants and have less structured clinical rotations. But don't Carrib schools take even less competitive applicants and have worse clinical sites?

What about DO schools makes PDs of surgical specialty programs less fond of them than Carrib grads?


Link:. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...WiTHyYMb_gcWoN7og&sig2=bwbuwgj9mV3zgUDsrnrEeg
IMG=/=Caribbean grad

Some IMGs come from Cambridge, King's College London proper, or any number of other top-tier medical schools throughout the world. They're more likely to score a spot than a Carib or DO grad. Also many Carib grads have parents or other connections that are faculty, and can use that to secure spots.
 
It's self selection. there are a good number of gen surg/ ENT / ortho DO residencies, so DO's interested in these fields tend to apply in the DO match.

That, and some don't want to deal with the hassle of the USMLE, which is still pretty much a requirement in the surgery world. That being said, In my opinion Md surgical subspecialties are probably equally unfriendly to DO's and IMG/FMG's these days, with the exception of prelim surg, which pretty much anyone can match.
 
My thoughts (and guess) are this. All surgical specialties are very competitive so it's hard for any normal DO or Carribean grad to match into them. But I believe there are MDs/MBBSs from countries such as UK, Australia, Canada etc that have extensive research and maybe PhDs from good institutions that make them stellar candidates. This is why the surgical specialties looks like it's favored to IMGs. I think in the normal sense DO > Carrib grads, but because so few DO/Carribs match into them, the few exceptional IMGs from other places that do match into them skew the numbers in favor of them.
They have data for both US IMGs and non-US IMGs. The interview & rank rates are similar across quite a few specialties for DOs and US IMGs, and both are not too far off from non-US IMGs.

Doesn't self selection only explain the data for interviews and not ranking?
 
wow that report makes me very scared about becoming a DO... you literally have half the opportunity as an MD. Never realized it was this cutthroat. Ortho/Derm/ Plastics/ Vascular surgery are completely out of the question regardless of performance it seems lol
 
I have seem a few IM programs that have 100% IMG... Maybe these programs rather have IMG with good scores than below average US students...

I think probably between 10-30% of all IM programs are over 50% IMG. I know from where I'm from aside from the top of the mountain most of the programs are majority IMG.
 
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wow that report makes me very scared about becoming a DO... you literally have half the opportunity as an MD. Never realized it was this cutthroat. Ortho/Derm/ Plastics/ Vascular surgery are completely out of the question regardless of performance it seems lol
And you're just barely doing your homework now?
 
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wow that report makes me very scared about becoming a DO... you literally have half the opportunity as an MD. Never realized it was this cutthroat. Ortho/Derm/ Plastics/ Vascular surgery are completely out of the question regardless of performance it seems lol

Yeah....but to be fair they are out of the question for pretty much most Medical students period. There are some great derm/ortho/sure DO programs though. I do have friends that matched into ophtho and MD gen surg from my class though.
 
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And you're just barely doing your homework now?
I've done a lot of homework, but never have seen this report. I just always had the impression that if you really worked your a** off you could do anything.. kinda depressing
 
I've done a lot of homework, but never have seen this report. I just always had the impression that if you really worked your a** off you could do anything.. kinda depressing

Well that is actually true, most just have no idea how much work that actually means. People match these specialties every year, but it's a lot easier to decide to go into anesthesia when you realize that getting neurosurgery means living and breathing it for 4 years. There are no breaks for the people who want these specialties as a DO.
 
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I've done a lot of homework, but never have seen this report. I just always had the impression that if you really worked your a** off you could do anything.. kinda depressing

You can. You just need to lower your standards.

Likewise remember that SDN is something like 50% Californians, 30% Boston & New York. Their perceptions of the competitiveness of the world are skewed and many good applicants aren't going to really be flying into taking spots in Omaha or Topeka, etc despite them being excellent programs in many fields.
 
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According to NRMP PD survey just about every specialty is significantly more likely to rank/Interview DOs than US-IMGs except surg specialties like NS and ENT. Why is this?
Because of the AOA. Applicants that are strong and want surgical subspecialties have traditionally applied AOA for a better shot at matching their desired specialty. This means PDs have more experience with IMGs and also receive less of the stellar applicants that go into AOA. Other specialties have had history with matching DOs. One upside of the merger is that over time these ACGME residencies will open to DOs because they'll apply to all residencies at the same time.
 
I have seem a few IM programs that have 100% IMG... Maybe these programs rather have IMG with good scores than below average US students...
I think probably between 10-30% of all IM programs are over 50% IMG. I know from where I'm from aside from the top of the mountain most of the programs are majority IMG.
There's more than a few programs that are 100% IMG.

There were >7,000 ACGME categorical PGY1 IM positions in 2016. <4,000 USMDs + DOs even applied for those spots. So there's >3,000 more categorical IM spots than US grads applying to fill them. Of course there are going to be programs, especially the least desirable, that are 100% IMG.
 
There's a reason why more DO schools are popping up like McDonald's franchises. DO schools want to make primary care docs. That's it.

Many DO school rotations are garbage. It's essentially glorified shadowing.

To any pre-med reading this, come 2020, kiss buh-bye to surgery, plastics, neurosurgery, derm, ortho, etc.

Know what you are getting yourself into.

Say hello to FM and IM baby!

Urine dipsticks for you! and for you! and for you!
 
There's a reason why more DO schools are popping up like McDonald's franchises. DO schools want to make primary care docs. That's it.

Many DO school rotations are garbage. It's essentially glorified shadowing.

To any pre-med reading this, come 2020, kiss buh-bye to surgery, plastics, neurosurgery, derm, ortho, etc.

Know what you are getting yourself into.

Say hello to FM and IM baby!

Urine dipsticks for you! and for you! and for you!

Nothing wrong with that tbh. If you go into medical school unwilling or utterly uninterested in IM or FM then you're probably setting yourself up to be more unhappy than everyone else.
 
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There's a reason why more DO schools are popping up like McDonald's franchises. DO schools want to make primary care docs. That's it.

Many DO school rotations are garbage. It's essentially glorified shadowing.

To any pre-med reading this, come 2020, kiss buh-bye to surgery, plastics, neurosurgery, derm, ortho, etc.

Know what you are getting yourself into.

Say hello to FM and IM baby!

Urine dipsticks for you! and for you! and for you!
TBH if you're in a DO school you're probably there for a reason. There's a good chance you wouldn't have got into these fields anyway. Not everyone can score >70th percentile on boards.
 
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I've done a lot of homework, but never have seen this report. I just always had the impression that if you really worked your a** off you could do anything.. kinda depressing

This is a naive mindset that a ton of DO students have and they need deal with it. We need to stop telling people that they can do whatever they like as long as they work hard.

DOs will continue to be successful in PC specialties and the select few will still get surgery but DO applicants need to be fine with that chance before going in. I think the surgery or bust DO applicants are a little crazy
 
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TBH if you're in a DO school you're probably there for a reason. There's a good chance you wouldn't have got into these fields anyway. Not everyone can score >70th percentile on boards.

Not my fault I hate physics lol.

But yah, honestly it's also not the end of the world too. There are people who score below average on the comlex even, which is probably a surprise to most SDNers who think that the minimal score starts at 550.

I think DO matching capabilities will probably pause for a bit but will likely improve as time goes on, especially at established schools with entrance stats closer to or above a 3.5/27.
 
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TBH if you're in a DO school you're probably there for a reason. There's a good chance you wouldn't have got into these fields anyway. Not everyone can score >70th percentile on boards.

Yeah exactly. I totally agree with you.

If anything, OPP just reminds me that I should have worked harder in undergrad.

OTOH... beats going to the caribbean by a mile.

It's just all perspective.
 
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Nothing wrong with that tbh. If you go into medical school unwilling or utterly uninterested in IM or FM then you're probably setting yourself up to be more unhappy than everyone else.

Totally agree with you. This is why I always tell pre-meds the reality of the situation. DOs are for Primary Care fields.

I was always set onto going IM and then specializing but recently that is changing into other fields in primary care.

I am just thankful I am at an American school and not in the Caribbean.

Plus, I am from a rural place and want to go back there to practice, be a "people's" doctor and make bank while doing so.

DO route will help me do so.

God bless the DO title (minus the OPP).
 
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Bottom line. To the Pre-meds out there...


KEEP UR OPTIONS OPEN.

ALWAYS bust your ass in undergrad and try to get into a MD program.

If you do not want primary care... do not go DO.

You are honestly better off going PA and then specializing and being able to enter surgery and the competitive fields.

Or become a CRNA.

:)
 
There's a reason why more DO schools are popping up like McDonald's franchises. DO schools want to make primary care docs. That's it.

Many DO school rotations are garbage. It's essentially glorified shadowing.

.....

I disagree with this statement. Most of the rotations, even the crappy ones, you do quite a lot. Almost all DO rotations are 1:1 preceptor based, and unless it's a new clerkship site, then it's likely you'll be doing everything from seeing patients, writing SOAPs, doing orders, procedures, etc. The problem with most DO rotations is that there is limited contact with interns, residents, and fellows, which means once you hit 4th year doing auditions, you're pretty clueless of their role, i.e. the roll you're "playing" during and audition/Sub-I. That's the major downside.
 
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There's more than a few programs that are 100% IMG.

There were >7,000 ACGME categorical PGY1 IM positions in 2016. <4,000 USMDs + DOs even applied for those spots. So there's >3,000 more categorical IM spots than US grads applying to fill them. Of course there are going to be programs, especially the least desirable, that are 100% IMG.
I have nothing against these programs that have a 100% IMG. Au contraire, I am applying the a few of them as a US student because I am so scared about not getting a spot in the match.
 
I have nothing against these programs that have a 100% IMG. Au contraire, I am applying the a few of them as a US student because I am so scared about not getting a spot in the match.

Then you're wasting you're money. There's a reason they're 100% IMG.
 
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Bottom line. To the Pre-meds out there...
KEEP UR OPTIONS OPEN.
ALWAYS bust your ass in undergrad and try to get into a MD program.
If you do not want primary care... do not go DO.

You are honestly better off going PA and then specializing and being able to enter surgery and the competitive fields.

Or become a CRNA.


:)
Disagree. A doctor is a doctor is a doctor.
 
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Then you're wasting you're money. There's a reason they're 100% IMG.
I am applying to only 10 programs that have >75% IMGs. The other 40 will be mid/low tier university programs. 10 programs will cost <$300. That is a drop in the bucket after spending 250-275k getting a medical degree.
 
Exposure. Competitive DOs for these specialties have had to forgo the NRMP match for decades, but that's going to change. You'd be amazed how little some PDs know about the osteopathic enterprise.

Also, let's be real, from my experience, surgical fields still have that old boys' club vibe. Are you a Harvard man or a Yale man?
 
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Bottom line. To the Pre-meds out there...


KEEP UR OPTIONS OPEN.

ALWAYS bust your ass in undergrad and try to get into a MD program.

If you do not want primary care... do not go DO.

You are honestly better off going PA and then specializing and being able to enter surgery and the competitive fields.

Or become a CRNA.

:)

I think DOs will still have opportunities in competitive fields. As I've said before, there's a view that because there aren't many DOs in competitive fields in Boston or LA that there are none at all. I think ppl who work hard will still have ample opportunities.
 
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I am applying to only 10 programs that have >75% IMGs. The other 40 will be mid/low tier university programs. 10 programs will cost <$300. That is a drop in the bucket after spending 250-275k getting a medical degree.

Aren't you in the 220s? Plus you're an MD. You need to get some balls son. Acting like a baby is going to hurt you way more than a "low" step 1.
 
Bottom line. To the Pre-meds out there...


KEEP UR OPTIONS OPEN.

ALWAYS bust your ass in undergrad and try to get into a MD program.

If you do not want primary care... do not go DO.

You are honestly better off going PA and then specializing and being able to enter surgery and the competitive fields.

Or become a CRNA.

:)

Not sure if serious.

I'm in MD school, and I'd be a DO any day before being a non-physician.
 
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Aren't you in the 220s? Plus you're an MD. You need to get some balls son. Acting like a baby is going to hurt you way more than a "low" step 1.
215-220 from a low tier MD and my class rank will be probably in the 4th quartile. Will only have 2 research projects under my belt. No poster presentations and publications!
 
There's a reason why more DO schools are popping up like McDonald's franchises. DO schools want to make primary care docs. That's it.

Many DO school rotations are garbage. It's essentially glorified shadowing.

To any pre-med reading this, come 2020, kiss buh-bye to surgery, plastics, neurosurgery, derm, ortho, etc.

Know what you are getting yourself into.

Say hello to FM and IM baby!

Urine dipsticks for you! and for you! and for you!
This is total bull****. Majority of AOA residencies are converting and most will likely still take DOs. My states DO ortho program that has initial ACGME accredited said the will still only consider DOs for their program.
 
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TBH if you're in a DO school you're probably there for a reason. There's a good chance you wouldn't have got into these fields anyway. Not everyone can score >70th percentile on boards.

That's only partially true. I did go to a "top tier" DO school ( whatever that means ) - but my entering class had a 3.5 and 27 mcat average..idk about these no accredited / new DO schools but most others weren't too far off from that.

There were a lot of people in my class (myself included) that did very well on their mcat but had just messed around too much in college and had a low GPA. Out of a class of 150 about 75 went into primary care, 30-40 into DO emergency or surgery, but a solid 20 or so of us that did competitive MD residencies. A few of us matched rads at competitive programs (myself included), but we had plenty also match allopathic EM, 2 ophtho, lots of anesthesia.

So yeah, most probably won't kill their usmle's, but plenty of us do every year.
 
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Bottom line. To the Pre-meds out there...


KEEP UR OPTIONS OPEN.

ALWAYS bust your ass in undergrad and try to get into a MD program.

If you do not want primary care... do not go DO.

You are honestly better off going PA and then specializing and being able to enter surgery and the competitive fields.

Or become a CRNA.

:)

Dude are you on drugs? Wtf are you talking about? A surgery PA over a DO? Get a grip on yourself. Don't sell out fellow physicians to midlevels -

How can you even compare a DR to a crna to a PA? Good god. Hope you're joking.
 
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Dude are you on drugs? Wtf are you talking about? A surgery PA over a DO? Get a grip on yourself. Don't sell out fellow physicians to midlevels -

How can you even compare a DR to a crna to a PA? Good god. Hope you're joking.
It's not about being called a doctor or money. If someone is not comfortable with the possibility of matching primary care then they shouldn't go DO. There are PAs that are able to do procedures that EM doctors do.
 
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It's not about being called a doctor or money. If someone is not comfortable with the possibility of matching primary care then they shouldn't go DO. There are PAs that are able to do procedures that EM doctors do.
You mean DO can't match into EM or they can't do IM and go on to sub-specialize. Give me a break!

I don't know about you; I hate being a second class citizen.
 
My point about becoming a midlevel was solely for those who DO NOT WANT TO ENTER PRIMARY CARE and believe they will wholeheartedly match into something like neurosurgery.

OPP is a timesink. It truly is not worth it.

It's another hurdle for me personally... but I'll get over it like I always have been,

If I offended anybody, just know it was meant for those who do NOT want to do primary care and see DO as a "backdoor" into surgery or something else.

Bottom line...

MD> DO > ....PA .... CRNA..... >>>>>> Caribbean.
 
It's not about being called a doctor or money. If someone is not comfortable with the possibility of matching primary care then they shouldn't go DO. There are PAs that are able to do procedures that EM doctors do.

This guy gets it.

It's not about the "respect" factor for me.

I'd go where the money is, personally.

When a midlevel can make ~200K with less liability and LESS time spent than some primary care docs, AND have unions to back them up.... then I'd totally be on board.

Us future physicians have no backing with one another. Too many fragile egos.

I do not mean to sound thankless because honestly, I'm glad to be pursuing medicine.

I am solely speaking for those who are more about the $$$ and time aspect and do NOT want to do primary care.

Like I said... I will be entering a field in primary care. I knew what it was when I signed up.
 
These threads, one way or the other, always end the same.

IMO, be realistic and work hard, you'll more than likely match happily.
 
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This guy gets it.

It's not about the "respect" factor for me.

I'd go where the money is,
personally.

When a midlevel can make ~200K with less liability and LESS time spent than some primary care docs, AND have unions to back them up.... then I'd totally be on board.

Us future physicians have no backing with one another. Too many fragile egos.
It's not about money for some...
 
My point about becoming a midlevel was solely for those who DO NOT WANT TO ENTER PRIMARY CARE and believe they will wholeheartedly match into neurosurgery.

OPP is a timesink. It truly is not worth it.

It's another hurdle for me personally... but I'll get over it like I always have been,

If I offended anybody, just know it was meant for those who do NOT want to do primary care and see DO as a "backdoor" into surgery or something else.

Bottom line...

MD> DO > ....PA .... CRNA..... >>>>>> Caribbean.


I think the point you're missing is being a PA in surgery is like being a NP in family practice - you're not the doctor. You're not doing much work. You're retracting or maybe at the most harvesting a vein.

You're much much better off doing family practice as a DO and working in EM or something in a rural area. Hell, just be AVERAGE in medical school and do DO gen surgery.

I also disagree with your view on the Carrib - IF you can make it out and pass your usmle's - much better off being a primary care doc doing minor procedures in a rural setting than being a surgeons peon and scutmonkey. ( what a surgery PA is )

Trust me. I did prelim surg and worked with Pa's all day. You're far better off being a family doc.
 
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It's not about money for some...

Exactly... like I said in my post.... my rationale is for those that money is a concern.

Bottom line is... medicine for me will be a job to finance other areas I want to pursue.
 
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