Why does SND comply with AAMC demands?

[hooligan]

Why does SDN have to comply with the hush-hush no talking about your MCAT rule the AAMC invented? Last time I checked this isn't an AAMC sponsored forum.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[kehlsh]

this is pretty common sense..;

 

[Jamba Mamba]

hmm.. i wonder..?

maybe because physicians/aspiring physicians are supposed to be the most ethical people in the world?

we're held to a higher standard by others whether you like it or not.

 

[Carnation1895]

Forget ethics, if you are in violation of the non-disclosure agreement the AAMC will prohibit you from applying to any US med school, ever.

If you don't play the game you can never win.

 

[kexy]

Why does SDN have to comply with the hush-hush no talking about your MCAT rule the AAMC invented? Last time I checked this isn't an AAMC sponsored forum.

SDN doesn't. Examinees do.

When you register for/take the MCAT, you agree to be bound by a non-disclosure agreement. Because of this, when examinees come on SDN and break the agreement, the AAMC is entitled to legally force SDN to reveal our identities.

(I assume) that SDN just cooperates/enforces it for our own good. Better to have the mods delete your post than get sued/blacklisted by the AAMC.

 

[paul411]

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=10124139&postcount=1

 

[tn4596]

SDN doesn't. Examinees do.

When you register for/take the MCAT, you agree to be bound by a non-disclosure agreement. Because of this, when examinees come on SDN and break the agreement, the AAMC is entitled to legally force SDN to reveal our identities.

(I assume) that SDN just cooperates/enforces it for our own good. Better to have the mods delete your post than get sued/blacklisted by the AAMC.

SND doesnt have our identities to begin with lol...but yeah, dont do it. You dont stand to gain anything.

 

[Prncssbuttercup]

You'll be banned from the forum. If you told me in person a question that was on the MCAT you took, and not just a general, "there was some momentum questions, some solvent questions, etc" I can call AAMC and turn you in. You and I and everyone signed a non-disclosure agreement. Those questions are trademarked, by violating the trademark, you can be heavily fined and possibly jailed for doing so. Don't risk it.

 

[hooligan]

You'll be banned from the forum. If you told me in person a question that was on the MCAT you took, and not just a general, "there was some momentum questions, some solvent questions, etc" I can call AAMC and turn you in. You and I and everyone signed a non-disclosure agreement. Those questions are trademarked, by violating the trademark, you can be heavily fined and possibly jailed for doing so. Don't risk it.

That would be taking medical school gunning to the next level. In fact, you'd probably be the most appropriate definition of "gunner" in the world if you did that.

Here's the problem. SDN doesn't know our identities. They know our IP addresses, but if everybody uses a proxy they won't be able to trace it back to our home addresses. Or, we could all simply just make new accounts and only access them from public computers - they could never find out who we were.

Even if they did know our real IP addresses, an IP address is not a person. My gunner friend could have easily broke into my insecure Home WiFi network, logged onto SDN, posted some MCAT questions. The result? I would have been framed. Hell, your dad could just log onto your computer and do the exact same thing, if for example he wanted you to become a lawyer instead of a doctor.

I'm not in favour of giving away MCAT questions. That's not the point of this topic. The point is that I don't think it's right that SDN allows itself to be bullied by what is essentially a multinational corporation - the AAMC.

 

[ridethecliche]

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=10124139&postcount=1

/Stupid Thread

 

[hooligan]

/Stupid Thread

So essentially what you are saying is that we shouldn't do X, because Y told us not to.

Doctors have to be critical thinkers. "I'm not doing X because Y said so" is the opposite of critical thinking. This tells me you aren't going to be a good doctor.

 

[tenndoc]

shhhhhhhhhhhh... they're watching us

 

[LuciusVorenus]

That would be taking medical school gunning to the next level. In fact, you'd probably be the most appropriate definition of "gunner" in the world if you did that.

Here's the problem. SDN doesn't know our identities. They know our IP addresses, but if everybody uses a proxy they won't be able to trace it back to our home addresses. Or, we could all simply just make new accounts and only access them from public computers - they could never find out who we were.

Even if they did know our real IP addresses, an IP address is not a person. My gunner friend could have easily broke into my insecure Home WiFi network, logged onto SDN, posted some MCAT questions. The result? I would have been framed. Hell, your dad could just log onto your computer and do the exact same thing, if for example he wanted you to become a lawyer instead of a doctor.

I'm not in favour of giving away MCAT questions. That's not the point of this topic. The point is that I don't think it's right that SDN allows itself to be bullied by what is essentially a multinational corporation - the AAMC.

Read the FAQ. SDN has no choice. It doesn't reveal information unless ordered to do so by a court. Since you signed a nondisclosure agreement, getting a court to agree to release your information is easy.

It's not as simple as using a "proxy." Depending on the nodes you use, and whether you're using a Torr browser or not, they can easily trace you.

If your dad did indeed post MCAT questions, then it's evident you told your dad the questions. This is proof you broke the disclosure. If your friend did it and you want to prove it, you'd have to take it to court and probably get the FBI involved, which is a completely different game.

Regardless of what YOU post though, SDN can be shut down if it becomes apparent that it's facilitating the breaking of a nondisclosure agreement. It's less of a headache for SDN and everyone involved to just ban you and delete your posts.

 

[user3]

so are there actually any cases where people have been traced, identified and blacklisted because of this?

 

[hooligan]

It's not as simple as using a "proxy." Depending on the nodes you use, and whether you're using a Torr browser or not, they can easily trace you.

That's simply wrong. To figure the IP address of the original poster, the AAMC would have to phone up the guy in China/Russia/Pakistan who owns the proxy server, and kindly ask him what your IP address is. In other words, its not happening.

If your dad did indeed post MCAT questions, then it's evident you told your
dad the questions. This is proof you broke the disclosure. If your friend did it
and you want to prove it, you'd have to take it to court and probably get the
FBI involved, which is a completely different game.

You wouldn't have to prove anything. The burden of proof is on the plantiff in civil court. Otherwise I could sue you for stealing my invisible car, and you'd have to prove that you didn't steal my invisible car.

Besides, this overlooks the obvious fact that you could get away scott free if you simply posted from a public computer, like the library.

I'm not condoning the posting of MCAT questions. An agreement is an agreement. What I'm against is that SDN is being bullied into complying with the AAMC's demands, because the AAMC thinks that they are so damn important that everybody has to be a part of their business in policing the premed community. Meanwhile the guy who owns SDN is just trying to run his small business, and he's being dragged into enforcing private contracts. Does that sound fair to him?

 

[hooligan]

so are there actually any cases where people have been traced, identified and blacklisted because of this?

I'd be interested in hearing this as well.

 

[PhaseShift11]

Well this would be interesting - what if someone told an individual who had never signed up for the MCAT certain questions, and those questions were posted here.

That individual never wrote the MCAT, never signed any NDA, but he's also the one who posted the questions to the public.

Where does the blame get placed?

 

[NinjaMed]

Well this would be interesting - what if someone told an individual who had never signed up for the MCAT certain questions, and those questions were posted here.

That individual never wrote the MCAT, never signed any NDA, but he's also the one who posted the questions to the public.

Where does the blame get placed?

Have you considered the possibility of questions fingerprinting? In questions fingerprinting, a particular examinee will be given certain questions from a particular bank of AAMC questions. That way, examinee #00001 will have a question regarding optics and one concerning projectile motion concerning final velocity. Whereas examinee #00003 will have a question concerning optics and one concerning projectile motion concerning time. Through questions fingerprinting, there is a far better chance of tracing the source of the leak. I remember there was a person who posted the topics to the verbal reasoning section. I had taken the MCAT on the same day. All but one of the passages were the same. There are different versions on the same day that may be very similar, but differ only slightly to identify the version for that day. It is far easier to trace than it would seem on the surface.

 

[PhaseShift11]

Oh that's pretty cool. Yeah that makes sense, I suppose they know exactly what questions everyone gets even if they're slightly different from the people around you taking the exam.

 

[sweetness34]

Integrity, no cheating, and making it fair for all test takers.

 

[LuciusVorenus]

You wouldn't have to prove anything. The burden of proof is on the plantiff in civil court. Otherwise I could sue you for stealing my invisible car, and you'd have to prove that you didn't steal my invisible car.

This is in theory true, but unfortunately not how the law works anymore. Look at our sex offense laws for examples.

 

[EnergyDrink]

hmm.. i wonder..?

maybe because physicians/aspiring physicians are supposed to be the most ethical people in the world?

we're held to a higher standard by others whether you like it or not.

Just to play... what if my morals don't match the morals of AAMC?

Discussing questions can be useful in increasing knowledge and identifying possible AAMC errors, much more so than used as an aid for cheating. In reality, their stance is likely a ploy to stop test-prep companies from competition. $35 for a practice MCAT.

 

[hooligan]

This is in theory true, but unfortunately not how the law works anymore. Look at our sex offense laws for examples.

That's criminal court. Civil law is completely different. It's not as politicized as criminal court, where nowadays you are guilty until proven innocent.

Have you considered the possibility of questions fingerprinting? In questions
fingerprinting, a particular examinee will be given certain questions from a
particular bank of AAMC questions. That way, examinee #00001 will have a
question regarding optics and one concerning projectile motion concerning final
velocity. Whereas examinee #00003 will have a question concerning optics and one
concerning projectile motion concerning time. Through questions fingerprinting,
there is a far better chance of tracing the source of the leak. I remember there
was a person who posted the topics to the verbal reasoning section. I had taken
the MCAT on the same day. All but one of the passages were the same. There are
different versions on the same day that may be very similar, but differ only
slightly to identify the version for that day. It is far easier to trace than it
would seem on the surface.

HA. So if I say "There was a solubility question involving NO3 and H2SO4," they are going to somehow be able to trace it back to me? Even if that was possible, there would likely be thousands of people with the same question. Even then, I could just argue that the information in the question was contorted as it passed through the grapevine, to match mine, by chance.

 

[LuciusVorenus]

That's criminal court. Civil law is completely different. It's not as politicized as criminal court, where nowadays you are guilty until proven innocent.



HA. So if I say "There was a solubility question involving NO3 and H2SO4," they are going to somehow be able to trace it back to me? Even if that was possible, there would likely be thousands of people with the same question. Even then, I could just argue that the information in the question was contorted as it passed through the grapevine, to match mine, by chance.

That's not the point. By the time you're done taking it through court, every school you apply to will automatically just assume you're guilty. This is because the AAMC will probably first cancel your score and ban you (which means the damage has already been done) and it'll be on YOU to prove THEM wrong. If you go on the MCAT essentials and read what you agree to, it basically says they can cancel your score on a whim. There is no place for a trial anywhere in that agreement. You can probably go to trial and get your score back, but like I said, too little too late.

 

[NinjaMed]

That's criminal court. Civil law is completely different. It's not as politicized as criminal court, where nowadays you are guilty until proven innocent.



HA. So if I say "There was a solubility question involving NO3 and H2SO4," they are going to somehow be able to trace it back to me? Even if that was possible, there would likely be thousands of people with the same question. Even then, I could just argue that the information in the question was contorted as it passed through the grapevine, to match mine, by chance.

That's not how questions fingerprinting works. Your test will not be the exact same as your neighbour's. Some questions may be the same, while others still will be different. As an example, questions #3, #14, # 21, #49, #50, #52 will be the identifier questions. Each identifier question has 6 "switch-outs." Switch-outs are the questions that can be interchanged for that question. For instance, question #14 will be a chemistry question dealing with concentration calculation. There are 6 versions of question #14:

#14.1-mass percent, NaCl
#14.2-molarity, HCl
#14.3-density, H(2)CO(3)
#14.4-molality, H(2)SO(4)
#14.5-number of moles from molarity, NO(3)
#14.6-calculate volume from dilution H3CCOOH

If you reveal a particular question from the identifier, the tracing can start. If enough questions are given by a particular person, that person can be identified. For 6 identifier questions, 6^6 can identify one out of 46,656 examinees.

Another way to create a questions fingerprint is to have one identifier question with 1,000 switch-outs. A single question can identify one out of 1,000 examinees. Your test is not the same as that of your neighbour's on the same test date and same location. Certainly, one question is not enough to fully identify an examinee, but the probability of success increases with the more questions the examinee reveals. On the other hand, if you revealed only one question, you could still be identified if your user ID on SDN revealed the test center location and the test date, or just that one question and the test date. Computers are getting more and more powerful these days, and a slower quad-core computer can manage the entire questions bank for the whole year at all test center locations and test dates.

There are questions from one test that are similar to or even the exact same as that from another test. But, it is very hard for an examinee to know which one is a duplicate question from one test to another and which question is an identifier. Remember, the identifier questions go from within sections (i.e. Physical Sciences) and across sections (i.e. Physical Sciences + Verbal Reasoning + Writing Sample + Biological Sciences). In other words, if you try to give out one question from each section (4 questions), that may be enough to zero in on who you are. In conclusion, it is not worth it to reveal questions because questions fingerprinting is too hard to defeat.