Why dont midlevel practioners have midlevel salaries?

[orthokneepa]

I was wondering if I could get some opinions on this subject. I think we all know the duties and responsibilities of various health providers, specifcally RN, PA/NP and MD. I just reviewed starting and 3-5 year salaries of each and came up with the following...(note this is a purely a national average non specific for region and spans ALL specialties)

RN 45K
PA/NP 52K
MD 250K

3-5 year

RN 55K
PA/NP 68K
MD 350K

Now based on education, responsibility, and liability this looks a little skewed to me. This isnt an attack on RN's but a midlevels ability and responsibilites especially at the 3-5 year level are presumably much higher and theoretically should be compensated so. This isnt a point to show that RN's are overpaid.(I would never want to work on the floor!) but that midlevels maybe underpaid. Are MD's overpaid? How much more work do they do? etc

Anyone else agree?

Now these figures can change greatly based on region and speciality but even then the difference is still obvious. Why is it that a midlevel carries out the same if not nearly the same duties under supervision as an MD but gets paid signifigantly less and not "midlevel"?

Purely making a point....I for example other than making the first incision carry out the same physical duties as my supervising MD. I round, take 1st ER call, perfrom simple reductions, apply casts/splints, make decisions for surgery, perform injections, perform consultations, see patients alone in an outpatient setting, carry out entire surgical closures....etc all within a 50-60hr workweek. Am I(we) underpaid? when the OR circulating nurse who makes 10K-15K less a year than myself works 5 8hr shifts and the 11-7 floor nurse works the same carrying out their normal duties? Is the surgeon overpaid when he works the exact same hours as I do?

What do you guys think. I myself am very happy with my salary and compensation but as a whole I think we maybe underpaid.....

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[guetzow]

If "You" are making under 100K for what you've described, you are underpaid. The average FP PA rarely makes over 80K, and rightly so (Less billable procedures). It's all relative.

 

[deleted6669]

I work with a large group of em pa's and ortho pa's. I don't know any who make under 100k. the avg is more like 125k with our most productive member making 160k. the least I ever made my 1st yr out of school > 10 yrs ago was 75k. primary care pa's get the shaft and often make 55-65k despite a national avg last yr for all pa's of 81k.
the national avg for em pa's is 90k.
salaries by specialty 2005:
http://physician-assistant.advanceweb.com/common/Editorial/Editorial.aspx?CC=66397

basically your #s are way out of date........no one makes 52k anymore as a pa unless they really take a bad job......

 

[orthokneepa]

I work with a large group of em pa's and ortho pa's. I don't know any who make under 100k. the avg is more like 125k with our most productive member making 160k. the least I ever made my 1st yr out of school > 10 yrs ago was 75k. primary care pa's get the shaft and often make 55-65k despite a national avg last yr for all pa's of 81k.
the national avg for em pa's is 90k.
salaries by specialty 2005:
http://physician-assistant.advanceweb.com/common/Editorial/Editorial.aspx?CC=66397

basically your #s are way out of date........no one makes 52k anymore as a pa unless they really take a bad job......

Interesting. My numbers are off. I wonder when that survery was from. What is your location emedpa?

 

[deleted6669]

Interesting. My numbers are off. I wonder when that survery was from. What is your location emedpa?

pacific northwest. I work in both oregon and washington. started my career as a pa in california.

 

[MacGyver]

Dude your numbers for MD salaries are a joke.

The national average for all doctors, across all specialties, across all experience levels, and across all job types is about 160k according to the US Labor Department. I consider them authoritative, because they use real census/tax return data and not surveys for their data set.

So the average for MDs is about 160k, the average for PAs is something like 80k, the average for NPs is about the same, and CRNAs average something like 100k or so.

Sounds like midlevel salaries to me.

 

[plouffes]

I was wondering if I could get some opinions on this subject. I think we all know the duties and responsibilities of various health providers, specifcally RN, PA/NP and MD. I just reviewed starting and 3-5 year salaries of each and came up with the following...(note this is a purely a national average non specific for region and spans ALL specialties)

RN 45K
PA/NP 52K
MD 250K

3-5 year

RN 55K
PA/NP 68K
MD 350K

Now based on education, responsibility, and liability this looks a little skewed to me. This isnt an attack on RN's but a midlevels ability and responsibilites especially at the 3-5 year level are presumably much higher and theoretically should be compensated so. This isnt a point to show that RN's are overpaid.(I would never want to work on the floor!) but that midlevels maybe underpaid. Are MD's overpaid? How much more work do they do? etc

Anyone else agree?

Now these figures can change greatly based on region and speciality but even then the difference is still obvious. Why is it that a midlevel carries out the same if not nearly the same duties under supervision as an MD but gets paid signifigantly less and not "midlevel"?

Purely making a point....I for example other than making the first incision carry out the same physical duties as my supervising MD. I round, take 1st ER call, perfrom simple reductions, apply casts/splints, make decisions for surgery, perform injections, perform consultations, see patients alone in an outpatient setting, carry out entire surgical closures....etc all within a 50-60hr workweek. Am I(we) underpaid? when the OR circulating nurse who makes 10K-15K less a year than myself works 5 8hr shifts and the 11-7 floor nurse works the same carrying out their normal duties? Is the surgeon overpaid when he works the exact same hours as I do?

What do you guys think. I myself am very happy with my salary and compensation but as a whole I think we maybe underpaid.....

A few of us were just discussing this same thing.. I am currently a nursing student (working as a nurse extern) and have aspirations of becoming a PA. And the more I realize (as I see nurses that are doing it) I can make 60k (with no call and working 36-45 hours/wk) as a nurse without racking up the additional 100k in debt, it deters me from attending PA school. However, I do love what I know of the role of the PA from what I observed, etc. I have a ways yet... I don't have to make that decision anytime soon.

 

[adamdowannabe]

Dude your numbers for MD salaries are a joke.

The national average for all doctors, across all specialties, across all experience levels, and across all job types is about 160k according to the US Labor Department. I consider them authoritative, because they use real census/tax return data and not surveys for their data set.

So the average for MDs is about 160k, the average for PAs is something like 80k, the average for NPs is about the same, and CRNAs average something like 100k or so.

Sounds like midlevel salaries to me.

Best check your sources before you cite them: I did

and here is the breakdown,

Less than two years in specialty Over one year in specialty

Anesthesiology
$259,948 $321,686

Surgery: General
228,839 282,504

Obstetrics/gynecology: General
203,270 247,348

Psychiatry: General
173,922 180,000

Internal medicine: General
141,912 166,420

Pediatrics: General
132,953 161,331

Family practice (without obstetrics)
137,119 156,010




Either your math skills are that of a pre-schooler, or you are clueless. The average I get (good old, addition and devision) is 226,000.00 ( I rounded down to the nearest thousand dollars) * I did take the salaries listed for those one year out of practice.

Do you just make numbers up, and then cite government agencies thinking it makes your argument legit?


my resource: US department of Labor Stats

URL is http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos074.htm

 

[Undecided12]

Best check your sources before you cite them: I did

and here is the breakdown,

Less than two years in specialty Over one year in specialty

Anesthesiology
$259,948 $321,686

Surgery: General
228,839 282,504

Obstetrics/gynecology: General
203,270 247,348

Psychiatry: General
173,922 180,000

Internal medicine: General
141,912 166,420

Pediatrics: General
132,953 161,331

Family practice (without obstetrics)
137,119 156,010




Either your math skills are that of a pre-schooler, or you are clueless. The average I get (good old, addition and devision) is 226,000.00 ( I rounded down to the nearest thousand dollars) * I did take the salaries listed for those one year out of practice.

Do you just make numbers up, and then cite government agencies thinking it makes your argument legit?


my resource: US department of Labor Stats

URL is http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos074.htm

Yes, but aren't there more primary care docs (IM, FP, Peds, etc.) than specialists like surgeons or anesthesiologists? This would bring that average salary down a bit.

 

[guetzow]

Nobody "makes" you practice FP, et al..... If you want to be 'Average' (In compensation), that's your conscious decision; Just as chosing a life in FP and not caring much about compensation can be. We all have a "Choice". The comparison between RN and PA (Plouffes post) is just as ridiculous. As in MD-dome, PA salary is predicated by the amount of billable services/procedures you perform (i.e.-Specialties 'tend' to have more of them.......'duh'). Randomly assigning salaries, as in "This is what a PA makes....." (Versus 'This is what an RN makes'), is inherently asinine. It depends on the Particular job that the Particular PA is Particularly doing (High revenue-generating job vs FP/Low-revenue generating job). get it?

 

[joydee]

If "You" are making under 100K for what you've described, you are underpaid. The average FP PA rarely makes over 80K, and rightly so (Less billable procedures). It's all relative.

NP in adult medicine starting my second year in practice and making 80K just at my second year and I am not the exception - talk to more NPs and stop looking at the salary surveys - i also recruit nurses on the side

 

[BIS]

Where I am at in the dirty south:

RN New Grad 55k with OT 65k
RN five years Expereince 65-75k
Travel Nurse 75-80k add to that rent paid
PA/NP 75k new grad 80-90-100k experience
CRNA new grad 120-130k
CRNA 5 yrs experience 155-165k with OT/Call 180-200k