Why is Allopathic school favored over Osteopathic?

[willen101383]

People in the know have all sorts of reasons from overall quality of education to options for rotations to preference/lack thereof for OMM. In all honesty, though, I think the biggest reason is simple familiarity. People hear about MDs more than they do about DOs, they see more MDs in a hospital, and the degree is more mainstream in the field. Allopathy is then seen as the main way to go, with osteopathy viewed as an "alternative" pathway. For my own part I've seen all the MD schools in Illinois (where I'm from) and DMU is my first choice over any of them. I felt the facilities and faculty were far superior, I got a much better vibe from the students, and research is not a priority for me. You just have to look around to find out which school fits you the best based on what you want in your education. Each pathway has its own great and mediocre schools.

For what it's worth, I work in a hospital and all the doctors I've talked to (MD or DO) say it makes less of a difference where you go to med school or what pathway you choose than how hard you work and what you get on your board scores.

This. Unless you are someone who NEEDS things to be explained to them by professors. I 100% self study so the professors are completely irrelevant to me. For most med students "big names" arent going to matter. Most docs are going to be rank and file physicians in community hospitals...despite the fact that everyone likes to think they are going to save the world from atop the ivory tower.

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[IlDestriero]

This. Unless you are someone who NEEDS things to be explained to them by professors. I 100% self study so the professors are completely irrelevant to me. For most med students "big names" arent going to matter. Most docs are going to be rank and file physicians in community hospitals...despite the fact that everyone likes to think they are going to save the world from atop the ivory tower.

Hey, don't go mocking the ivory tower punk!

<----

 

[MIAYO]

You should indicate any of your personal affiliations. Are you a DO student?
You said that you graduated with something like a ~2.4 GPA... Okay, for the sake of this discussion I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume some major life circumstance negatively impacted your studies and your turned things around towards the end.

How would you explain WVSOM's class average of a 25 mcat? Some prob scored 27's (or higher)...others scored 23 (or below).

Come on, man, that is either: A) not caring about a major determining factor in one's future and therefore not prepping; or B) studying hard but still being unable to pull off a decent score.

I know 7 people that have gone to WVSOM. Knowing what I know about them (both inside and outside the classroom), only 3 of those 7 people I would be willing to have as my doctor.

Some schools seem to have higher standards, PCOM and KCUMB (for instance) come to mind.

Stepping back, this thread is "why is allopathic favored over osteopathic?"...

Since everyone's list is going to be subjective, I went ahead and posted merely one of the issues that I have witnessed myself: some students do not take their academics seriously and others lack the mental fortitude to do well (despite how hard they try)...These aforementioned students that do end up in med school always seem to go DO. Like it or not, that is what I have seen. GRANTED, keep in mind, that these aforementioned students do not obviously make up the entire populace of DO cohorts (they are nevertheless present and mixed in).

If you would like a more extensive list I could also include the fact that I think OMM is bunk, DO schools have very little in the way of research opportunities compared to allopathic schools and DO schools do not have a good track record of placing graduates in my specialty of interest.

If I were to really sit and think longer about it, I'm sure I could come up with a couple other answers as to "why is allopathic favored over osteopathic?" However, it wasn't my intention to come up with a comprehensive list. Rather just make a quick point fact about the theoretical "average student" that makes up certain DO school cohorts.

Don't take things so personally (i.e. "douchebaggery"). Study hard, I'm sure you will do fine.

EDIT: Just to clarify again for those DO students with itchy trigger fingers on the reply button, my post isn't in "absolutes". There are tons of DO students that do great on the boards and excellent work overall.

I agree with you mostly. You also have to include DO students who had disastrous events occur during undergrad and those who chose DO for personal reasons.

 

[user3]

Well WVSOM is regionally biased. But it still surprises me how low some DO schools' stats are. PCOM for example had nearly 7,000 apps last year, yet class average MCAT has never been above 27 or GPA above 3.5. The public DO schools (other than WVSOM), DMU, NYCOM, and some others do have averages on par with lower tier MD schools, though.

 

[willen101383]

You should indicate any of your personal affiliations. Are you a DO student?
You said that you graduated with something like a ~2.4 GPA... Okay, for the sake of this discussion I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume some major life circumstance negatively impacted your studies and your turned things around towards the end.

How would you explain WVSOM's class average of a 25 mcat? Some prob scored 27's (or higher)...others scored 23 (or below).

Come on, man, that is either: A) not caring about a major determining factor in one's future and therefore not prepping; or B) studying hard but still being unable to pull off a decent score.

I know 7 people that have gone to WVSOM. Knowing what I know about them (both inside and outside the classroom), only 3 of those 7 people I would be willing to have as my doctor.

Some schools seem to have higher standards, PCOM and KCUMB (for instance) come to mind.

Stepping back, this thread is "why is allopathic favored over osteopathic?"...

Since everyone's list is going to be subjective, I went ahead and posted merely one of the issues that I have witnessed myself: some students do not take their academics seriously and others lack the mental fortitude to do well (despite how hard they try)...These aforementioned students that do end up in med school always seem to go DO. Like it or not, that is what I have seen. GRANTED, keep in mind, that these aforementioned students do not obviously make up the entire populace of DO cohorts (they are nevertheless present and mixed in).

If you would like a more extensive list I could also include the fact that I think OMM is bunk, DO schools have very little in the way of research opportunities compared to allopathic schools and DO schools do not have a good track record of placing graduates in my specialty of interest.

If I were to really sit and think longer about it, I'm sure I could come up with a couple other answers as to "why is allopathic favored over osteopathic?" However, it wasn't my intention to come up with a comprehensive list. Rather just make a quick point fact about the theoretical "average student" that makes up certain DO school cohorts.

Don't take things so personally (i.e. "douchebaggery"). Study hard, I'm sure you will do fine.

EDIT: Just to clarify again for those DO students with itchy trigger fingers on the reply button, my post isn't in "absolutes". There are tons of DO students that do great on the boards and excellent work overall.

My mom had a rough time with breast cancer my entire undergrad career/I had no intention of really going to med school hence the poor GPA. I am a DO student, I am a MS2 @ PCOM. I did graduate undergrad with a 2.45 in dec 05....graduated with my masters in a far more difficult hard science forensics program ("forensics" aka post bacc) in 2009 with a 3.78. Took the MCAT once in my "early days of recovery" got a 27...retook once post acceptance (acceptance and MCAT were literally days apart) for a 29...but that score never even made it to any schools bc I already had my acceptance. Didnt apply to a single MD school due to that poor ass undergrad GPA...and not wanting to waste money/knowing I would get autoscreened.

If you take a second to read my posts on DO schools...you will see that I am a pretty "disgruntled" DO student. I hate OMM, I think 75% of is straight up BS. I hate the AOA. I hate the claims they make. I hate that they dont represent the majority of DO students and refuse to acknowledge our concerns. I know DOs dont fare as well in the MD match (and frankly why should we...its not our match). I have zero qualms about outing the deficiencies of my school (and benefits) and am by no means some DO student with an inferiority complex. The pathway has tons of downsides, but it is also great for plenty of students.

Itchy trigger finger nothin. Ill call a spade a spade when I see one and your post was disrespectful My annoyance came with the fact that you basically called out every WVSOM student and said they are either A. not trying or B. dumb. Thats a dick statement to make and not necessary. End of story. Does this mean the school graduates sub par doctors? No. Does MCAT/ ugrad GPA have any bearing on the caliber of physician you will become? More than likely no. Especially since it is well known that DO schools tend to be more forgiving for atypical situations and the like (me for example). If you can do the work and pass boards/complete residency you have what it takes to practice medicine....regardless of your school, regardless of scores you got as an undergrad 10+ years ago if not more. I get that you are all premeds and in the thick of things...but I am so far from undergrad/my undergrad grades that I cant identify with the person I was back then. People change. People mature. For all you/I know...many of those WVSOM students are from similar backgrounds to mine. Thats all I am trying to say. You cant always judge a book by its cover. Grades and MCAT scores arent everything. There is more to life/an applicant/a med student than a bunch of numbers. I worked full time in an allied health field full time all the way through undergrad...and for 5 years post graduation until matriculation. I think that speaks way more for my drive and dedication to healthcare than a few hours of shadowing and a good MCAT score/GPA.....but solely based on GPA alone (even after 70 credits of 3.75 my GPA was still sub 3.0) youd likely think I didnt take my studies seriously enough for you....right? But I have been more successful in med school than I'd ever dreamed possible, and when I take my USMLE on May 22nd I will glady post my score for comparison purposes. Look, I understand your point....but there are more to applicants than scores, dont forget that. Regardless of your opinion of WVSOM students these people are going to be your future colleagues, a little bit of respect goes a long way. Obviously everyone has their reasons for going/not going to certain schools...and thats fine. DO schools arent the right choice for people gunnin for ROADS/academic medicine. Are there people in my class I wouldnt want as my own doctor...certainly. I also know just as many MDs (being older everyone I know have graduated and are either residents or attendings now) I wouldnt want being my doctor, so this isnt restricted to DO schools regardless of your (small) sample size.

 

[willen101383]

Hey, don't go mocking the ivory tower punk!

<----

Hey now! Not mocking the ivory tower..just acknowledging the fact that most docs wont ascend it.

 

[sliceofbread136]

My mom had a rough time with breast cancer my entire undergrad career/I had no intention of really going to med school hence the poor GPA. I am a DO student, I am a MS2 @ PCOM. I did graduate undergrad with a 2.45 in dec 05....graduated with my masters in a far more difficult hard science forensics program ("forensics" aka post bacc) in 2009 with a 3.78. Took the MCAT once in my "early days of recovery" got a 27...retook once post acceptance (acceptance and MCAT were literally days apart) for a 29...but that score never even made it to any schools bc I already had my acceptance. Didnt apply to a single MD school due to that poor ass undergrad GPA...and not wanting to waste money/knowing I would get autoscreened.

If you take a second to read my posts on DO schools...you will see that I am a pretty "disgruntled" DO student. I hate OMM, I think 75% of is straight up BS. I hate the AOA. I hate the claims they make. I hate that they dont represent the majority of DO students and refuse to acknowledge our concerns. I know DOs dont fare as well in the MD match (and frankly why should we...its not our match). I have zero qualms about outing the deficiencies of my school (and benefits) and am by no means some DO student with an inferiority complex. The pathway has tons of downsides, but it is also great for plenty of students.

Itchy trigger finger nothin. Ill call a spade a spade when I see one and your post was disrespectful My annoyance came with the fact that you basically called out every WVSOM student and said they are either A. not trying or B. dumb. Thats a dick statement to make and not necessary. End of story. Does this mean the school graduates sub par doctors? No. Does MCAT/ ugrad GPA have any bearing on the caliber of physician you will become? More than likely no. Especially since it is well known that DO schools tend to be more forgiving for atypical situations and the like (me for example). If you can do the work and pass boards/complete residency you have what it takes to practice medicine....regardless of your school, regardless of scores you got as an undergrad 10+ years ago if not more. I get that you are all premeds and in the thick of things...but I am so far from undergrad/my undergrad grades that I cant identify with the person I was back then. People change. People mature. For all you/I know...many of those WVSOM students are from similar backgrounds to mine. Thats all I am trying to say. You cant always judge a book by its cover. Grades and MCAT scores arent everything. There is more to life/an applicant/a med student than a bunch of numbers. I worked full time in an allied health field full time all the way through undergrad...and for 5 years post graduation until matriculation. I think that speaks way more for my drive and dedication to healthcare than a few hours of shadowing and a good MCAT score/GPA.....but solely based on GPA alone (even after 70 credits of 3.75 my GPA was still sub 3.0) youd likely think I didnt take my studies seriously enough for you....right? But I have been more successful in med school than I'd ever dreamed possible, and when I take my USMLE on May 22nd I will glady post my score for comparison purposes. Look, I understand your point....but there are more to applicants than scores, dont forget that. Regardless of your opinion of WVSOM students these people are going to be your future colleagues, a little bit of respect goes a long way.

If the majority of students entering WVSOM were unsuccessful in undergrad, then wouldn't you think that the students on average that graduate from the school will be less capable as doctors than students who were more successful in undergrad and attended schools with higher average stats?

Please take not that I said average graduate, I'm sure that many of these students turned themselves around in med school and became great doctors (you are probably a good example). But then again I'm sure many didn't.

 

[sliceofbread136]

I stopped reading when you introduced yourself as being "a disgruntled DO student". There is no useful debate to be had after that revelation. I can only assume that you did what I asked you not to do: take things personally and wrongfully assume that I am referring to all DO students.

Best of luck.

I honestly see alot of similarities between DO vs MD as state school vs prestigious undergrad threads. For whatever reason alot of smart stateschoolers/DOers feel kinda down about what school they attend even though they are performing very successfully where they are. They feel they have something to prove and argue in these threads. I feel your pain Willen(I'm a state schooler), but I've realized that you need to let your current scores/achievements do the talking. In the mean time let hater's hate.

 

[ensuii]

My mom had a rough time with breast cancer my entire undergrad career/I had no intention of really going to med school hence the poor GPA. I am a DO student, I am a MS2 @ PCOM. I did graduate undergrad with a 2.45 in dec 05....graduated with my masters in a far more difficult hard science forensics program ("forensics" aka post bacc) in 2009 with a 3.78. Took the MCAT once in my "early days of recovery" got a 27...retook once post acceptance (acceptance and MCAT were literally days apart) for a 29...but that score never even made it to any schools bc I already had my acceptance. Didnt apply to a single MD school due to that poor ass undergrad GPA...and not wanting to waste money/knowing I would get autoscreened.

If you take a second to read my posts on DO schools...you will see that I am a pretty "disgruntled" DO student. I hate OMM, I think 75% of is straight up BS. I hate the AOA. I hate the claims they make. I hate that they dont represent the majority of DO students and refuse to acknowledge our concerns. I know DOs dont fare as well in the MD match (and frankly why should we...its not our match). I have zero qualms about outing the deficiencies of my school (and benefits) and am by no means some DO student with an inferiority complex. The pathway has tons of downsides, but it is also great for plenty of students.

Itchy trigger finger nothin. Ill call a spade a spade when I see one and your post was disrespectful My annoyance came with the fact that you basically called out every WVSOM student and said they are either A. not trying or B. dumb. Thats a dick statement to make and not necessary. End of story. Does this mean the school graduates sub par doctors? No. Does MCAT/ ugrad GPA have any bearing on the caliber of physician you will become? More than likely no. Especially since it is well known that DO schools tend to be more forgiving for atypical situations and the like (me for example). If you can do the work and pass boards/complete residency you have what it takes to practice medicine....regardless of your school, regardless of scores you got as an undergrad 10+ years ago if not more. I get that you are all premeds and in the thick of things...but I am so far from undergrad/my undergrad grades that I cant identify with the person I was back then. People change. People mature. For all you/I know...many of those WVSOM students are from similar backgrounds to mine. Thats all I am trying to say. You cant always judge a book by its cover. Grades and MCAT scores arent everything. There is more to life/an applicant/a med student than a bunch of numbers. I worked full time in an allied health field full time all the way through undergrad...and for 5 years post graduation until matriculation. I think that speaks way more for my drive and dedication to healthcare than a few hours of shadowing and a good MCAT score/GPA.....but solely based on GPA alone (even after 70 credits of 3.75 my GPA was still sub 3.0) youd likely think I didnt take my studies seriously enough for you....right? But I have been more successful in med school than I'd ever dreamed possible, and when I take my USMLE on May 22nd I will glady post my score for comparison purposes. Look, I understand your point....but there are more to applicants than scores, dont forget that. Regardless of your opinion of WVSOM students these people are going to be your future colleagues, a little bit of respect goes a long way. Obviously everyone has their reasons for going/not going to certain schools...and thats fine. DO schools arent the right choice for people gunnin for ROADS/academic medicine. Are there people in my class I wouldnt want as my own doctor...certainly. I also know just as many MDs (being older everyone I know have graduated and are either residents or attendings now) I wouldnt want being my doctor, so this isnt restricted to DO schools regardless of your (small) sample size.

Good post friend. Unfortunately, I think that the majority of those reading it (Frazier included) don't really have the maturity or experience to really understand where you're coming from. It sucks that on a forum designed to create dialogue between the multiple level of our profession (attendings, fellows, residents, students, pre-meds) to foster professional development that there are those who really do not want to hear what you have to say. I have a lot of experience in dealing with youth and trust me, although every once in a while there's one worth the wind, to a large extent you just have to say what you can and hope they one day come to understand. Let me know if you need any tips/help/resources for Step1. I think I had a 28 MCAT (it's been a while) and a 242USMLE, 645COMLEX.

 

[IMSingular]

My wife's regular physician was a Osteopathic. She quickly diagnosed her with an ailment and advised to see a specialist. Her diagnosis was right on while the specialist, an MD, took longer time and many more tests, and was much more expensive. The same Osteopathic was also general physician for my children. Well at that time we had no idea about differences between MDs and DOs.

I am not particualarly fond of admissions process to medical school. It's mostly consists of hoops to that are manipulated by pre-meds. At the end it is not clear whether matriculants are the best possible selection to serve the society. On the other hand I think the population base is big enough to produce 30,000 matriculant who would be competent physicians.
Inflow of students that graduate highschool is about 4,000,000. 30,0000 is just 0.75% of it. I suppose any one who has desire to be a doctor, and is in top 5% will be a competent physician. My guess is that most Osteopaths are in the 5%.

Addendum: Most physicians don't have to be geniuses. They have to correlate symptoms with diseases and disease with treatment drugs/surgery, and realise how to handel exception, that is refer to specialists. Neural network expert systems designed with fuzzy logic principles could probably handel 90% case load in future, though I would insist that a physician confirm these diognosis, and communicate that to the patients in common language.

 

[JackShephard MD]

I think everyone should respect one another, first and foremost.

MD or DO won't make you a good or bad doctor, and MD's don't order more tests or take longer to diagnosis (contrary to the n = 1 example above). It's not intelligent to somehow try to generalize the groups like that.

The only facts we have are: MD is more competitive in GPA/MCAT and it also leads to entrance in more competitive specialties (think Derm, Plastics, etc.). Also, research opportunities I've seen are more abundant at higher ranked Allo's than lower ranked (and likely more than many Osteopathic schools also). I don't know what other useful arguments can be made. Every physician is different and we can appreciate each person for who they are.

GPA/MCAT isn't everything. I think it does measure the innate intelligence of most students, although not all.

It's of no benefit to anyone to insult DO's or MD's.

How would you explain WVSOM's class average of a 25 mcat? Some prob scored 27's (or higher)...others scored 23 (or below).

Come on, man, that is either: A) not caring about a major determining factor in one's future and therefore not prepping; or B) studying hard but still being unable to pull off a decent score.

I know 7 people that have gone to WVSOM. Knowing what I know about them (both inside and outside the classroom), only 3 of those 7 people I would be willing to have as my doctor.

Some schools seem to have higher standards, PCOM and KCUMB (for instance) come to mind.

Stepping back, this thread is "why is allopathic favored over osteopathic?"...

Since everyone's list is going to be subjective, I went ahead and posted merely one of the issues that I have witnessed myself: some students do not take their academics seriously and others lack the mental fortitude to do well (despite how hard they try)...These aforementioned students that do end up in med school always seem to go DO. Like it or not, that is what I have seen. GRANTED, keep in mind, that these aforementioned students do not obviously make up the entire populace of DO cohorts (they are nevertheless present and mixed in).

If you would like a more extensive list I could also include the fact that I think OMM is bunk, DO schools have very little in the way of research opportunities compared to allopathic schools and DO schools do not have a good track record of placing graduates in my specialty of interest.

EDIT: Just to clarify again for those DO students with itchy trigger fingers on the reply button, my post isn't in "absolutes". There are tons of DO students that do great on the boards and excellent work overall.

I would ask that, before you write your responses, imagine if you were a DO and how you would like be addressed. I did read your edit, but I think starting to generalize that DO's don't care about academics or don't have mental fortitude doesn't help anyone except those trying to feel better about themselves by kicking someone down.

 

[SpecterGT260]

My wife's regular physician was a Osteopathic. She quickly diagnosed her with an ailment and advised to see a specialist. Her diagnosis was right on while the specialist, an MD, took longer time and many more tests, and was much more expensive. The same Osteopathic was also general physician for my children. Well at that time we had no idea about differences between MDs and DOs.

I am not particualarly fond of admissions process to medical school. It's mostly consists of hoops to that are manipulated by pre-meds. At the end it is not clear whether matriculants are the best possible selection to serve the society. On the other hand I think the population base is big enough to produce 30,000 matriculant who would be competent physicians.
Inflow of students that graduate highschool is about 4,000,000. 30,0000 is just 0.75% of it. I suppose any one who has desire to be a doctor, and is in top 5% will be a competent physician. My guess is that most Osteopaths are in the 5%.

Addendum: Most physicians don't have to be geniuses. They have to correlate symptoms with diseases and disease with treatment drugs/surgery, and realise how to handel exception, that is refer to specialists. Neural network expert systems designed with fuzzy logic principles could probably handel 90% case load in future, though I would insist that a physician confirm these diognosis, and communicate that to the patients in common language.

the implication here is absolutely absurd. your experience could just as easily have been a difference between primary care and specialty (which I suspect it is.... or its just a difference between two docs...)

I think everyone should respect one another, first and foremost.


GPA/MCAT isn't everything. I think it does measure the innate intelligence of most students, although not all.

It's of no benefit to anyone to insult DO's or MD's.



I would ask that, before you write your responses, imagine if you were a DO and how you would like be addressed. I did read your edit, but I think starting to generalize that DO's don't care about academics or don't have mental fortitude doesn't help anyone except those trying to feel better about themselves by kicking someone down.

this this this and this. did I mention this?

 

[Sephiroth]

I think it's unfortunate that DO schools are oriented in such a way that many of their well-deserving students get flak for it (though more so on here than in the real world). There are plenty of people, such as willen, who would be passed over by most allopathic schools for things that happened a long time ago and aren't really relevant to the present, and DO provide a good outlet for them. Unfortunately, they will be grouped in with some students who just had lower stats more recently for less respectable reasons. I don't really know what the real breakdown is withing osteopathic schools, but I would hope for their lower numbers to be a result of their students having had bad grades well into their past, but then did well later on, rather than student who just graduated with mediocre grades.
I think the majority of OMM is crap and it seems to occupy a substantial amount of the education time, and I think that is unfortunate as well. If they truly seek a holistic approach like they claim, this would be time better spent on things like nutrition. It will likely take a good number of DO students like willen going through AOA residencies and changing these matters from the inside to effect such change. That, and homogenizing more with allopathic medicine on a superficial level rather than trying to maintain this distinction, which, even if in the real world the practical implications are fairly insignificant, is still on some level doing students like willen a disservice.

 

[235788]

I think it's unfortunate that DO schools are oriented in such a way that many of their well-deserving students get flak for it (though more so on here than in the real world). There are plenty of people, such as willen, who would be passed over by most allopathic schools for things that happened a long time ago and aren't really relevant to the present, and DO provide a good outlet for them. Unfortunately, they will be grouped in with some students who just had lower stats more recently for less respectable reasons. I don't really know what the real breakdown is withing osteopathic schools, but I would hope for their lower numbers to be a result of their students having had bad grades well into their past, but then did well later on, rather than student who just graduated with mediocre grades.
I think the majority of OMM is crap and it seems to occupy a substantial amount of the education time, and I think that is unfortunate as well. If they truly seek a holistic approach like they claim, this would be time better spent on things like nutrition. It will likely take a good number of DO students like willen going through AOA residencies and changing these matters from the inside to effect such change. That, and homogenizing more with allopathic medicine on a superficial level rather than trying to maintain this distinction, which, even if in the real world the practical implications are fairly insignificant, is still on some level doing students like willen a disservice.

solid points.

 

[ppfizenm]

I think it's unfortunate that DO schools are oriented in such a way that many of their well-deserving students get flak for it (though more so on here than in the real world). There are plenty of people, such as willen, who would be passed over by most allopathic schools for things that happened a long time ago and aren't really relevant to the present, and DO provide a good outlet for them. Unfortunately, they will be grouped in with some students who just had lower stats more recently for less respectable reasons. I don't really know what the real breakdown is withing osteopathic schools, but I would hope for their lower numbers to be a result of their students having had bad grades well into their past, but then did well later on, rather than student who just graduated with mediocre grades.
I think the majority of OMM is crap and it seems to occupy a substantial amount of the education time, and I think that is unfortunate as well. If they truly seek a holistic approach like they claim, this would be time better spent on things like nutrition. It will likely take a good number of DO students like willen going through AOA residencies and changing these matters from the inside to effect such change. That, and homogenizing more with allopathic medicine on a superficial level rather than trying to maintain this distinction, which, even if in the real world the practical implications are fairly insignificant, is still on some level doing students like willen a disservice.

agree but the situation you present is more like the exception rather than the rule.

 

[sliceofbread136]

the implication here is absolutely absurd. your experience could just as easily have been a difference between primary care and specialty (which I suspect it is.... or its just a difference between two docs...)





this this this and this. did I mention this?

But in some cases GPA/MCAT will be correlated to future medical school success, and there will be some DOs who just aren't that great. I think some of these not so great individuals helped to create some negative DO stigma. However, there will some DOs that are great doctors, and are even better than most MDs. This is why I'm going to try and judge doctors individually, not collectively based on degree.

 

[Sephiroth]

solid points.

I'm glad you think so, because looking at it again, it wasn't very well written.

agree but the situation you present is more like the exception rather than the rule.

*shrug* perhaps. As I said, without any good numbers breakdown, I really don't know what the rule is. I would like to think that a good number of DO students with numbers near or below their averages just did poorly early in college but finished strong and made use of that grade replacement, though for that to be a large majority may be wishful thinking. The few people I've known who intended to go to DO school prior to applying anywhere - and most of those who ended up at one either way, I didn't know their stats, so it's hard for me to really have much insight.

 

[tantacles]

Interesting thing: I've been a patient of this particular DO. Sort of makes you question the common knowledge that DOs don't work in academic medicine and can't get good appointments, no?

When I received a letter from his hospital, though, his signature listed him as an MD. though. Read into that at will.

http://physiciandirectory.brighaman...file.asp?dbase=main&setsize=1&pict_id=0007484

 

[sliceofbread136]

DO has a bad rep in my undergrad too...

I remember in my pre-med community the saying was always "You failed X course/MCAT - looks like you are gonna have to settle for DO." The response was always "Oh no! I don't want to go DO" - despite not knowing anything about the actual difference/practice of DOs.

Its just a huge bias ingrained during undergrad that MD >> DO.

Yet another great example of premed children being extreme sheep/idiots. But who really cares what a premed thinks.

 

[235788]

I'm glad you think so, because looking at it again, it wasn't very well written.

*shrug* perhaps. As I said, without any good numbers breakdown, I really don't know what the rule is. I would like to think that a good number of DO students with numbers near or below their averages just did poorly early in college but finished strong and made use of that grade replacement, though for that to be a large majority may be wishful thinking. The few people I've known who intended to go to DO school prior to applying anywhere - and most of those who ended up at one either way, I didn't know their stats, so it's hard for me to really have much insight.

its more about content

 

[THH]

Interesting thing: I've been a patient of this particular DO. Sort of makes you question the common knowledge that DOs don't work in academic medicine and can't get good appointments, no?

When I received a letter from his hospital, though, his signature listed him as an MD. though. Read into that at will.

http://physiciandirectory.brighaman...file.asp?dbase=main&setsize=1&pict_id=0007484

It's not uncommon for many hospitals to standardize badges/identification and list everyone as MDs regardless of actual degree (MD/DO/MBBS)

 

[SpecterGT260]

yes in some cases GPA/MCAT will be correlated to future medical school success, and there will be some DOs who just aren't that great. I think some of these not so great individuals helped to create some negative DO stigma. However, there will some DOs that are great doctors, and are even better than most MDs. This is why I'm going to try and judge doctors individually, not collectively based on degree.

fixed it for you

you are saying the very same thing I am. the numbers have value and its ridiculous to treat them like they dont or to ignore them. however that isnt the same thing as saying every person is defined by their scores.

 

[sliceofbread136]

fixed it for you

you are saying the very same thing I am. the numbers have value and its ridiculous to treat them like they dont or to ignore them. however that isnt the same thing as saying every person is defined by their scores.

Well then I completely agree with you.

 

[link2swim06]

You should indicate any of your personal affiliations. Are you a DO student?
You said that you graduated with something like a ~2.4 GPA... Okay, for the sake of this discussion I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume some major life circumstance negatively impacted your studies and your turned things around towards the end.

How would you explain WVSOM's class average of a 25 mcat? Some prob scored 27's (or higher)...others scored 23 (or below).

Come on, man, that is either: A) not caring about a major determining factor in one's future and therefore not prepping; or B) studying hard but still being unable to pull off a decent score.

I know 7 people that have gone to WVSOM. Knowing what I know about them (both inside and outside the classroom), only 3 of those 7 people I would be willing to have as my doctor.

Some schools seem to have higher standards, PCOM and KCUMB (for instance) come to mind.

Stepping back, this thread is "why is allopathic favored over osteopathic?"...

Since everyone's list is going to be subjective, I went ahead and posted merely one of the issues that I have witnessed myself: some students do not take their academics seriously and others lack the mental fortitude to do well (despite how hard they try)...These aforementioned students that do end up in med school always seem to go DO. Like it or not, that is what I have seen. GRANTED, keep in mind, that these aforementioned students do not obviously make up the entire populace of DO cohorts (they are nevertheless present and mixed in).

If you would like a more extensive list I could also include the fact that I think OMM is bunk, DO schools have very little in the way of research opportunities compared to allopathic schools and DO schools do not have a good track record of placing graduates in my specialty of interest.

If I were to really sit and think longer about it, I'm sure I could come up with a couple other answers as to "why is allopathic favored over osteopathic?" However, it wasn't my intention to come up with a comprehensive list. Rather just make a quick point fact about the theoretical "average student" that makes up certain DO school cohorts.

Don't take things so personally (i.e. "douchebaggery"). Study hard, I'm sure you will do fine.

EDIT: Just to clarify again for those DO students with itchy trigger fingers on the reply button, my post isn't in "absolutes". There are tons of DO students that do great on the boards and excellent work overall.

I agree partly with this post, but I think it is missing the biggest point everyone is negating. If a DO can score comparably and place into their desired specialty they are like as or more qualified as the MD. This happens large numbers everyday...the point is while DO schools may provide less opportunities on average, a good portion of those students will out perform their MD counterparts.

If someone has made it through med school, I dont think its fair to make any generalizations based on their degree.There is such variation it would absolute nonsense.

Also I do think DO schools attract people better fit for primary care than MD schools. A large part of being a doctor is just shutting up and listening to your patient. On the whole DO schools attract a large portion of people who can do.


This argument is really quite comical as you progress through medicine... because the petty argument turns into X specialty has inferior training to Y specialty instead of the DO vs. MD.

 

[drizzt3117]

This argument is really quite comical as you progress through medicine... because the petty argument turns into X specialty has inferior training to Y specialty instead of the DO vs. MD.

Meh, that's just because DOs are pretty much prevalent only in primary care and other select specialties. Just for fun I asked about 15 fellow rads applicants if they'd seen DO candidates on the trail, there were a grand total of 2 between us with us having > 200 interviews between us.

 

[SpecterGT260]

I agree partly with this post, but I think it is missing the biggest point everyone is negating. If a DO can score comparably and place into their desired specialty they are like as or more qualified as the MD. This happens large numbers everyday...the point is while DO schools may provide less opportunities on average, a good portion of those students will out perform their MD counterparts.

If someone has made it through med school, I dont think its fair to make any generalizations based on their degree.There is such variation it would absolute nonsense.

Also I do think DO schools attract people better fit for primary care than MD schools. A large part of being a doctor is just shutting up and listening to your patient. On the whole DO schools attract a large portion of people who can do.


This argument is really quite comical as you progress through medicine... because the petty argument turns into X specialty has inferior training to Y specialty instead of the DO vs. MD.

you are contradicting yourself. the argument can either be "it is inappropriate to generalize" or "for what DO's seem to lack they make up for in other areas". It cannot be both.

allopathic training is huge into patient interaction, listening, ect... and once all the DO's who think there is something intrinsic to their training that makes them better with patients actually get out to go practice they will be under the exact same pressures as the MD's. their time per patient, interactions, ect will reflect this.

 

[FattySlug]

Why is this thread still open? This debate has been settled a long time ago.

 

[link2swim06]

you are contradicting yourself. the argument can either be "it is inappropriate to generalize" or "for what DO's seem to lack they make up for in other areas". It cannot be both.

allopathic training is huge into patient interaction, listening, ect... and once all the DO's who think there is something intrinsic to their training that makes them better with patients actually get out to go practice they will be under the exact same pressures as the MD's. their time per patient, interactions, ect will reflect this.

Ok true I was contradicting myself...what I was trying to say is I didnt like lack of delineation between DO students and practicing DOs. DO schools are lacking in opportunities, but once you are in your specialty your letters or degree are absolutely meaningless.

Regardless of what classes we both go through, I have encountered much fewer ******* DOs vs MDs (even when taking into account absolute numbers of both). For primary care, a strong physician-patient relationship is vital. My personal observations is that DO schools attract more people who want to become PCPs from day 1. I dont think its hard to believe for primary care their admission's criteria might be better than allo admissions criteria.

But I am not going into primary care nor am I going to be a DO so I may be wrong...

 

[scotchtapetest]

Here is a possible reason:

Being that those are numerical means, I imagine that there are plenty of students with a score of 22 (or below) on the MCAT thrown in the class cohorts. I prefer surrounding myself with classmates that put a higher priority on scholarly endeavors and their academics... and if one is to try to claim that the folks making up that "25 mcat average and 3.3 GPA" do, in fact, value their academics then it opens up a whole 'nother can of worms requiring one to step back and instead question their intellectual capacity.

Next time you were curious about scores, look up Meharry Medical College, Howard University, Ponce School of Medicine, Universidad Central Del Caribe and University of Puerto Rico School of Medicine all of which are US medical schools accredited by your lovely LCME people with their "high standards" and report back about their averages. Let me give you a hint: they all have LOWER averages than WVSOM So don't come here talk about "intellectual capacity" of MD vs DO.

http://www.washington.edu/uaa/advising/downloads/gpamcat.pdf

WVSOM along with other Appalachian DO schools have as their primary mission to produce PCPs for a region that the allopathic schools have failed/neglected. Those areas of the country suffer from a physician shortage that is only comparable to 3rd world countries. If that means MCAT average of 25 so be it (same principle applies to abovementioned MD schools)! Besides their students have to pass the boards before they are licensed like everyone else.

MD average is 30ish which includes the top 40 schools with ridiculously high MCAT averages that state schools don't even come close to. DO school average is 26ish with no school that has 35 averages. If you take those top 40 schools out of MD averages, the difference in average MCAT score is about 2-2.5 points. Do you really think 2-2.5 points which can be made up by taking a stupid weekend course can distinguish among the "intellectual capacity" of different students? BTW, that is with all the extra state/federal funding MD state schools get to attract students.

Also FYI, 2335 of your MD colleagues who were accepted between 2009-2011 in US LCME schools had a MCAT of less than 24 (so much for surrounding yourself with scholars)! Obviously, I don't believe MCAT score are the sole determining factor for one's scholarship and I'm sure they were fine students.
https://www.aamc.org/download/270906/data/table24-mcatgpagridall0911.pdf

Simply put, there's still a lot of people who don't think DOs are as qualified or well-trained or whatever as MDs. Even among people who know there isnt much difference anymore, it affects decisions because of public perception.

Honestly, I've met quite a few people not involved in the medical field who don't even know what a DO is let alone know they are just as qualified as an MD. I shadowed a DO who said he has had patients cancel and even walk out of the office when they found out he was a DO. People think it's MD-light, so to speak.

And there are as many or even more patients who would only go to DOs (for whatever reason). In my FM rotation I treated many of them. Both cases are the MINORITY. Most people can care less and don't know the difference. Proof: You can't find a DO who is underemployed because of his DO degree!

 

[willen101383]

I stopped reading when you introduced yourself as being "a disgruntled DO student". There is no useful debate to be had after that revelation...and judging by the enormous paragraph that followed, I can only assume that you did what I asked you not to do: A) take things personally and B) wrongfully assume that I am referring to all DO students (whether that be across all schools or just all WVSOM students).

Lastly, my post was not disrespectful. Rather, it was simply factual while taking a jab at the often folklore approach of med school admissions as "holistic". I know numerous people that attend the school that I mentioned. I have the said school's statistics. It is easy to draw conclusions without making them aimless insults.

Best of luck.

So you missed 90% of my post then? Disgruntled by dealing with OMM. Disgruntled by the AOA. Do I care that I am not an MD student (which is what I assume you thought I meant by disgruntled)? No. I have accomplished enough with my life (read: far more than pre MD students taking jabs at DO students) to care. I am a med student....I have accomplished my life's goal. I dont care to be an ivory tower doc. I dont care to be an academic doc. I dont plan on being a ROADS specialist. AKA, the DO pathway has no major downsides for me aside from the stuff I mentioned above.

Thanks for the good luck, but I dont need it. In a week I will be done with my preclinical curriculum, and have shown that I can perform competitively in medical school despite the fact that (judging by my undergrad GPA) I "dont take my academics seriously."

 

[SpecterGT260]

MD average is 30ish which includes the top 40 schools with ridiculously high MCAT averages that state schools don't even come close to. DO school average is 26ish with no school that has 35 averages. If you take those top 40 schools out of MD averages, the difference in average MCAT score is about 2-2.5 points. Do you really think 2-2.5 points which can be made up by taking a stupid weekend course can distinguish among the "intellectual capacity" of different students? BTW, that is with all the extra state/federal funding MD state schools get to attract students.
!

well that part is just plain wrong. http://www.startmedicine.com/app/me...&iSO=MC&iST=&iCO=&cSU=++Refresh+School+Info++

after a few schools at the top with averages of 35 we get into the 30-32 range which is pretty middle of the pack for most MD schools. This is simply where the applicants fall for the average med school. and schools with the lower averages in MD are still typically 28 or so. The range for MD acceptance is pretty narrow. it is interesting though that you use pretty hefty exclusion criteria in your personal "study" here and somehow land on the conclusion that the true average MD acceptance score is something like a 27.

 

[willen101383]

If the majority of students entering WVSOM were unsuccessful in undergrad, then wouldn't you think that the students on average that graduate from the school will be less capable as doctors than students who were more successful in undergrad and attended schools with higher average stats?

Please take not that I said average graduate, I'm sure that many of these students turned themselves around in med school and became great doctors (you are probably a good example). But then again I'm sure many didn't.

Depends on whether you think success as an undergrad has anything to do with your capacity to be a successful physician. I personally dont think the two correlate at all. Its like people here act like "zomgs you need a 30 or above to be a great physician," which in reality couldnt be further from the truth. Its also like saying, understanding SN2 reactions (thats like the only thing I remember from orgo when i took it in 2002) has some bearing on your med school success. Some people are better at some things than others...and a lot of what is tested as a premed never gets mentioned again in med school (I would say most). Organic and physics sucked for me as an undergrad and I think I got C-s in both....have I see ANY organic chemistry/physics concepts come up in med school.....nope. My inferior knowledge of physics and organic chemistry havent impeded my success at all (well I did get a 11 on my physical sciences and a 10 in bio sciences on the MCAT, so maybe my knowledge isnt lacking).

And people dumb people simply dont succeed in medical school...they dont. They drop out, they fail out, they dont pass boards, etc. And dumb is relative....these "dumb" students are still more than likely lightyears apart from most Americans.

 

[scotchtapetest]

well that part is just plain wrong. http://www.startmedicine.com/app/me...&iSO=MC&iST=&iCO=&cSU=++Refresh+School+Info++

after a few schools at the top with averages of 35 we get into the 30-32 range which is pretty middle of the pack for most MD schools. This is simply where the applicants fall for the average med school. and schools with the lower averages in MD are still typically 28 or so. The range for MD acceptance is pretty narrow.

What are you taking about? PR schools (they are US LCME schools) take averages in low 20s. The range for average MCAT scores are 20-38 as per your link (I would hardly call that "narrow" and I'm not quite sure about the accuracy of your link's data).

Also, I'm not arguing over averages; I was responding to one of the previous posters who was questioning the "intellectual capacity" of DO vs. MD based on WVSOM's average. There are LCME MD schools with lower MCAT averages than DO schools. Having said that, I don't think students coming out of either of them are "bad students/physician" just because of their school's MCAT average.

 

[SpecterGT260]

howard and meharry are schools set up which promote african americans in medicine. ponce and UPR are in puerto rico.

I mean come ON - you have only 4 schools which were set up specifically to funnel PCPs into underrepresented areas. university of minnesota has a northern campus with reduced admissions requirements, but it is set up to send PCPs into rural MN for the native american population. All you REALLY have established with your post is that averages fall as incentive to something perceived as undesirable. go back and see how that conclusion impacts this thread

 

[scotchtapetest]

well that part is just plain wrong. http://www.startmedicine.com/app/me...&iSO=MC&iST=&iCO=&cSU=++Refresh+School+Info++

after a few schools at the top with averages of 35 we get into the 30-32 range which is pretty middle of the pack for most MD schools. This is simply where the applicants fall for the average med school. and schools with the lower averages in MD are still typically 28 or so. The range for MD acceptance is pretty narrow. it is interesting though that you use pretty hefty exclusion criteria in your personal "study" here and somehow land on the conclusion that the true average MD acceptance score is something like a 27.

See now you went back and changed/added to your post.. Not cool!

I never said 27, I said if you exclude the top 40, it will be 2-2.5 points higher than DO averages (26ish) which comes out to be 29-30. My point was and still is that 2-2.5 points doesn't distinguish "intellectual capacity" as hinted by the previous poster.

 

[IMSingular]

but in some cases gpa/mcat will be correlated to future medical school success, and there will be some dos who just aren't that great. I think some of these not so great individuals helped to create some negative do stigma. However, there will some dos that are great doctors, and are even better than most mds. This is why i'm going to try and judge doctors individually, not collectively based on degree.

+1

 

[willen101383]

I think it's unfortunate that DO schools are oriented in such a way that many of their well-deserving students get flak for it (though more so on here than in the real world). There are plenty of people, such as willen, who would be passed over by most allopathic schools for things that happened a long time ago and aren't really relevant to the present, and DO provide a good outlet for them. Unfortunately, they will be grouped in with some students who just had lower stats more recently for less respectable reasons. I don't really know what the real breakdown is withing osteopathic schools, but I would hope for their lower numbers to be a result of their students having had bad grades well into their past, but then did well later on, rather than student who just graduated with mediocre grades.
I think the majority of OMM is crap and it seems to occupy a substantial amount of the education time, and I think that is unfortunate as well. If they truly seek a holistic approach like they claim, this would be time better spent on things like nutrition. It will likely take a good number of DO students like willen going through AOA residencies and changing these matters from the inside to effect such change. That, and homogenizing more with allopathic medicine on a superficial level rather than trying to maintain this distinction, which, even if in the real world the practical implications are fairly insignificant, is still on some level doing students like willen a disservice.

This is the data for my class copied from the pcom website:

"In 2010, the entering D.O. Class of 2014 consisted of 270 first-time students from different colleges and states. The average class GPA was 3.45, the science GPA was 3.38 and the mean MCAT score was 27. Students averaged 24 years of age with a range from 20 to 47; 47 percent are women and 18 percent are under-represented minorities."

The Jefferson mean GPA for 2009 (couldnt find anything newer) was a 3.6 and 31.6. Is there really that much of a difference in between the two scores? Its a significant difference but based on stats alone are Jeff students that much more academically prepared because of a few MCAT points and a .15 GPA point difference? I dont think so...you can be the judge of that.

Furthermore OMM instruction consists of 1 hour per week of lab. Maybe some weeks we will have an hour of lecture. Versus between 20-30 hours of "typical" med school curriculum. Its a PITA to deal with...but by no means a massive time sink. As much as I hate OMM it DOES give you a much better appreciation for the musculoskeletal system...and keeps your anatomy knowledge current. Aside from that its pretty useless for ur average DO student.

Lastly, I wont be applying for AOA residencies

 

[SpecterGT260]

What are you taking about? PR schools (they are US LCME schools) take averages in low 20s. The range for average MCAT scores are 20-38 as per your link (I would hardly call that "narrow" and I'm not quite sure about the accuracy of your link's data).

Also, I'm not arguing over averages; I was responding to one of the previous posters who was questioning the "intellectual capacity" of DO vs. MD based on WVSOM's average. There are LCME MD schools with lower MCAT averages than DO schools. Having said that, I don't think students coming out of either of them are "bad students/physician" just because of their school's MCAT average.

I said typically. Nobody is arguing that there exists an example of 1 MD school with lower standards than 1 other DO school. what im arguing is that exceptions to the trend do not invalidate the trend. I was actually surprised with one DO school that popped up on the list with an avg of 28 on the mcat. However if we are talking median numbers (which is appropriate with data that tails in one direction or the other) we still get ~30 for MD and ~25 DO. And if we are going to exclude high scoring MD schools we get to cut out the low scoring ones by the same logic. otherwise you are just twisting the numbers and they are meaningless. It's like me saying my intramural BBall team is as good as the Lakers because kobe is an outlier and I choose not to include him because we dont have anyone who scores like he does.....

 

[scotchtapetest]

hehehe, yea, I didn't consider Caribbean schools. You are aware of the average academic prowess of the students that go there (most likely you have seen their stats), however, it sounds like you are generalizing. That is not nice. Think how that makes Caribbean students feel to have you put quotation marks around higher standards when referring to them.

Meanings can be twisted as much as you like.



Best of luck.

Those schools are NOT Caribbean schools. They are US schools accredited by the same entity that accredited your medical school (LCME).

 

[scotchtapetest]

I said typically. Nobody is arguing that there exists an example of 1 MD school with lower standards than 1 other DO school. what im arguing is that exceptions to the trend do not invalidate the trend. I was actually surprised with one DO school that popped up on the list with an avg of 28 on the mcat. However if we are talking median numbers (which is appropriate with data that tails in one direction or the other) we still get ~30 for MD and ~25 DO. And if we are going to exclude high scoring MD schools we get to cut out the low scoring ones by the same logic. otherwise you are just twisting the numbers and they are meaningless. It's like me saying my intramural BBall team is as good as the Lakers because kobe is an outlier and I choose not to include him because we dont have anyone who scores like he does.....

There are multiple DO schools with 27-28 mcat averages. There are also multiple MD schools with lower averages than multiple other DO schools. Having said of all that, I'm not arguing about averages. Obviously overall MD MCAT average is higher than DO MCAT average. My point is the true difference in an averages of an average MD school and DO schools are not what people on SDN try to make it. BTW, DO average is 26 (not that it matters).

 

[SpecterGT260]

See now you went back and changed/added to your post.. Not cool!

I never said 27, I said if you exclude the top 40, it will be 2-2.5 points higher than DO averages (26ish) which comes out to be 29-30. My point was and still is that 2-2.5 points doesn't distinguish "intellectual capacity" as hinted by the previous poster.

edits happen. its to be expected in a non-realtime system

all i am saying is you are grasping at straws to bring MD average scores down, and being generous with DO scores for the purposes of your comparison.

and either the score is indicative of intellectual capacity or it is not. if you can agree that a group of people who average 40 on this test are more intellectually capable than a group of people that average 7, then the same is true even if the differences are slight. it is up to you if you think that this difference doesn't have real world application - but you cannot pick and choose when numbers have meaning.

basically we've already arrived at the point that just because YOU the individual may not have the same score as 1 other individual we cannot automatically conclude about your ability. stating a lower average of one group vs another does not preclude the possibility that an individual within the lower has the same ability as an individual in the higher. the ENTIRE logical argument here makes no sense and doesn't really stand as a viable counter point only because the implication it makes was never contested.

 

[mauberley]

semantics. medical schools located on islands within the Atlantic ocean region for all intents and purposes can be considered as caribbean schools, IMO.

Let's generalize.

That's like saying "I'm going to Long Island" when you really mean you're going to Brooklyn or Queens. Sure, you're technically correct, but you'll get your ass kicked by individuals who would prefer not to be included with the jokers from "Strong Island."

 

[willen101383]

Good post friend. Unfortunately, I think that the majority of those reading it (Frazier included) don't really have the maturity or experience to really understand where you're coming from. It sucks that on a forum designed to create dialogue between the multiple level of our profession (attendings, fellows, residents, students, pre-meds) to foster professional development that there are those who really do not want to hear what you have to say. I have a lot of experience in dealing with youth and trust me, although every once in a while there's one worth the wind, to a large extent you just have to say what you can and hope they one day come to understand. Let me know if you need any tips/help/resources for Step1. I think I had a 28 MCAT (it's been a while) and a 242USMLE, 645COMLEX.

 

[scotchtapetest]

edits happen. its to be expected in a non-realtime system

all i am saying is you are grasping at straws to bring MD average scores down, and being generous with DO scores for the purposes of your comparison.

and either the score is indicative of intellectual capacity or it is not. if you can agree that a group of people who average 40 on this test are more intellectually capable than a group of people that average 7, then the same is true even if the differences are slight. it is up to you if you think that this difference doesn't have real world application - but you cannot pick and choose when numbers have meaning.

basically we've already arrived at the point that just because YOU the individual may not have the same score as 1 other individual we cannot automatically conclude about your ability. stating a lower average of one group vs another does not preclude the possibility that an individual within the lower has the same ability as an individual in the higher. the ENTIRE logical argument here makes no sense and doesn't really stand as a viable counter point only because the implication it makes was never contested.

Wow it must be nice to live in your world... Everything so black and white!

I don't know what year you are, but I'll try USMLE score with you (hopefully you can understand):

260 is a good score and 180 is not. The person who got 260 is smarter/studied more/whatever as compared to the 180.

230 is a good score 235 is also a good score. Would you call the guy who got 230 dumber than the guy who got 235?

So the difference makes a difference. But following your argument it shouldn't be about DO vs. MD. it should be each school vs the other. Would Frazier say that whatever MD school that has a lower average than whatever DO school has students with lower "intellectual capacity" than that DO school? (I personally don't agree with this) No s/he just came here and attacked DO students with a baseless argument.

 

[sliceofbread136]

This is the data for my class copied from the pcom website:

"In 2010, the entering D.O. Class of 2014 consisted of 270 first-time students from different colleges and states. The average class GPA was 3.45, the science GPA was 3.38 and the mean MCAT score was 27. Students averaged 24 years of age with a range from 20 to 47; 47 percent are women and 18 percent are under-represented minorities."

The Jefferson mean GPA for 2009 (couldnt find anything newer) was a 3.6 and 31.6. Is there really that much of a difference in between the two scores? Its a significant difference but based on stats alone are Jeff students that much more academically prepared because of a few MCAT points and a .15 GPA point difference? I dont think so...you can be the judge of that.

Furthermore OMM instruction consists of 1 hour per week of lab. Maybe some weeks we will have an hour of lecture. Versus between 20-30 hours of "typical" med school curriculum. Its a PITA to deal with...but by no means a massive time sink. As much as I hate OMM it DOES give you a much better appreciation for the musculoskeletal system...and keeps your anatomy knowledge current. Aside from that its pretty useless for ur average DO student.

Lastly, I wont be applying for AOA residencies

I think saying that undergraduate success has no correlation with medical success is just being close minded. Sure you barely use the material from undergrad, but a student who used to be a good student will have a higher chance to continue to be a good student, as opposed to someone who wasn't that great of a student in the past.

 

[SpecterGT260]

score -------------#
5-14 ------------10
15-17------------ 64
18-20 --------495
21-23------------ 1765
24-26--------- 4869
27-29-------- 12154
30-32------- 17656
33-35--------- 12646
36-38--------- 5833
39-45-------- 1784


here is the condensed numbers independent of GPA and school choice for all MD acceptances using your own link. basically the argument that the top 40 schools skew the numbers is false. over all acceptances the median is still in the 30-32 range
https://www.aamc.org/download/270906/data/table24-mcatgpagridall0911.pdf

you should understand that you are focusing on the opposite side of the same coin from what I have been.

 

[scotchtapetest]

I think saying that undergraduate success has no correlation with medical success is just being close minded. Sure you barely use the material from undergrad, but a student who used to be a good student will have a higher chance to continue to be a good student, as opposed to someone who wasn't that great of a student in the past.

I hope you are not implying that 0.15 point difference in the GPA makes people good or bad students. Or somehow that affects your medical school performance. That's just crazy talk!

Yes, undergraduate performance is important but not when comparing 3.45 to 3.6. Again that's like comparing 230 to a 235 on the USMLE and drawing conclusions about a student.

 

[ppfizenm]

Wow it must be nice to live in your world... Everything so black and white!

I don't know what year you are, but I'll try USMLE score with you (hopefully you can understand):

260 is a good score and 180 is not. The person who got 260 is smarter/studied more/whatever as compared to the 180.

230 is a good score 235 is also a good score. Would you call the guy who got 230 dumber than the guy who got 235?

So the difference makes a difference. But following your argument it shouldn't be about DO vs. MD. it should be each school vs the other. Would Frazier say that whatever MD school that has a lower average than whatever DO school has students with lower "intellectual capacity" than that DO school? (I personally don't agree with this) No s/he just came here and attacked DO students with a baseless argument.

Scales matter when you are randomly throwing out number. When you say there isn't a large difference between MCAT scores you are acting like the difference between a 35 and a 30 is 5 questions.

 

[SpecterGT260]

Wow it must be nice to live in your world... Everything so black and white!

I don't know what year you are, but I'll try USMLE score with you (hopefully you can understand):

260 is a good score and 180 is not. The person who got 260 is smarter/studied more/whatever as compared to the 180.

230 is a good score 235 is also a good score. Would you call the guy who got 230 dumber than the guy who got 235?

So the difference makes a difference. But following your argument it shouldn't be about DO vs. MD. it should be each school vs the other. Would Frazier say that whatever MD school that has a lower average than whatever DO school has students with lower "intellectual capacity" than that DO school? (I personally don't agree with this) No s/he just came here and attacked DO students with a baseless argument.

Im a little embarrassed for you that your reading comprehension is so poor....

Go look at my specifics on averages vs the individual. Of course we cant say that a guy who scores 235 on usmle is smarter than a guy who gets 230. however if 10000 people get 235 and 10000 people get 230, if the scores have any correlation at all, then we can say there is a higher % of more capable people in the first group - COMPLETELY without implying that everyone in the first group is more intelligent than those in the 2nd. If you werent so worked up on the subject matter I wouldnt have to hold your hand through this....

 

[SpecterGT260]

I hope you are not implying that 0.15 point difference in the GPA makes people good or bad students. Or somehow that affects your medical school performance. That's just crazy talk!

Yes, undergraduate performance is important but not when comparing 3.45 to 3.6. Again that's like comparing 230 to a 235 on the USMLE and drawing conclusions about a student.

this is just more of the same.... you have so thoroughly missed the point.... uhg Here's the deal - DO, MD, caribbean, US, mexican, whatever... I just want my doctors to understand statistics

"good" and "bad" are absolutes. "gooder".. er... um... "better" and "worse" do not have intrinsic value other than comparative. The students at hopkins are "better" than the students at my school. However that does not make every individual better than every individual at my school. it also does not mean that the students at my school are "bad".

you are honestly the one operating in black and white....