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Oh gawd! I leave for a few months and come back to this?
Welcome back?
Oh gawd! I leave for a few months and come back to this?
med students are a proud bunch. noone's going to admit that and the fact that you did an "informal survey" like that makes me question your social tact (sorry)
seems that we agree at the end of the day. the reason these threads keep going on and on is because there are a handful of DO students that can't admit that US MD should always be the first choice (if there aren't any extenuating circumstances) because their ego is too fragile.
Agreed...and I really dont trust the "OMM guru" students in my class. Are there some OMM techniques that are generally accepted and used in traditional physical therapy...yes. But unfortunately (at least in my mind) the dubious things that are taught really cast a cloud of doubt over the whole field.
This thread is descending into redundant madness (though I can't help coming back to it every few minutes). People are interjecting to much what if into the numbers. We can bring up all the anecdotal evidence we want but the only truly unbiased way to debate this is with the unmolested numbers.
I dont think anyone is ignoring anything here. MD students are seemingly better at taking standardized tests than DO students....thats a fact. At least you acknowledge the fact that there are excellent DOs out there...something that some posters in this thread seem to ignore.
This thread is descending into redundant madness (though I can't help coming back to it every few minutes). People are interjecting to much what if into the numbers. We can bring up all the anecdotal evidence we want but the only truly unbiased way to debate this is with the unmolested numbers.
You just said there the difference between a 27 and a 31 didn't mean anything. That is ignoring the numbers.
Im acknowledging the fact that there is a difference. I dont really know what that difference means outside of getting your foot in the door to a med school. My neighbor drives a R32. I drive an MKV GTI. There are differences there. Both cars take us to our destinations which is the purpose of a vehicle.....and thus I dont know what the true difference between our vehicles are.
I applied both MD and DO (admittedly DO was backup). however the OMM demo at DMU was what turned me off hard-core. The girl used the words "diagnose" and "treat" as buzzwords with no real meaning.
This is what happened verbatim
"I am going to diagnose the hip"
- pushes on the hip a few times of a supine student. mumbling from time to time about how "messed up" the student was
"ok. I have DIAGNOSED the hip!" (picture a superhero pose for this one
"now, I am going to TREAT the hip!"
again, pushing on the hip... but now also tugging on legs ect....
"alright, I have just treated the hip!"
so we have upper level students who are "diagnosing" issues with no chief complaint, and "treating" these issues with a measure of success identical to "you left just as you came in"..... my head almost popped. I would have felt better if she had even indicated that the other student WOULD have had xxxx issues, but this was a perfectly healthy girl being told she had something out of whack, a few good whacks, and suddenly she is back IN whack
the whole thing struck me as
In this case it is what you make of the vehicle I guess. I have no doubt that you will do fine and beat out several MD students in the future. Can you say that for all of you classmates though?
On a side note
my neighbor is a dentist and upon hearing I got into med school preceded to tell my parent how getting into dental school is harder then med school these days.
"what if" is exactly right. I have already typed out and deleted a series of long and overly sarcastic responses to some of those types of statements..... trying to play nice
In this case it is what you make of the vehicle I guess. I have no doubt that you will do fine and beat out several MD students in the future. Can you say that for all of you classmates though?
On a side note
my neighbor is a dentist and upon hearing I got into med school preceded to tell my parent how getting into dental school is harder then med school these days.
another great one that i have had the pleasure to engage in with a few people
its a matter of numbers again. the average dental student may have had a larger pool than the average med student (I dont know that that is true......) however the average medical student would have an easier time getting into dental school than he or she had getting into med school. in an unrelated discussion with someone who said something similar to me I linked out to a series of anecdotal stories of people who were not competative enough to get into med school who decided to go the dentist route instead. the posted numbers MCAT vs DAT were pretty interesting lol (DO guys, this was med student vs dental, not MD vs dental )
I dont have a GPA in med school
Everyone always thinks their "program" is the hardest/most cutthroat/most difficult to get into. Ive gotten into this conversation with people in all walks of life: engineering, law school, business. Its fun listening to people justify their pathways in life...SDN or IRL. Think about how many times youve heard/read things like "I would have gone to med school but I dont like blood/guts/poop/pee/etc." Or " I would have gone to med school but I would rather have been a nurse...nurses are the REAL providers of care..blah blah blah." However, we know the real reason you didnt go to med school: you werent intelligent enough/driven enough/etc to go.
Everyone always thinks their "program" is the hardest/most cutthroat/most difficult to get into. Ive gotten into this conversation with people in all walks of life: engineering, law school, business. Its fun listening to people justify their pathways in life...SDN or IRL. Think about how many times youve heard/read things like "I would have gone to med school but I dont like blood/guts/poop/pee/etc." Or " I would have gone to med school but I would rather have been a nurse...nurses are the REAL providers of care..blah blah blah." However, we know the real reason you didnt go to med school: you werent intelligent enough/driven enough/etc to go.
There are a number of things that keep some DO's from going MD that are not related to intellectual ability, though we cannot rule this out as a factor.
I swam D3 in college and was pretty good but would never have made a D1 team, ever. I am not ashamed to admit this. Why is intelligence any different?
I will also say this. I am lazy. Times when I should have been studying for my MCAT I was out drinking. I can work on this one though.
People are different. We each have things we can and can't do and things that we need to work on.
I wouldn't say this is true in all cases. If you don't want people to hate on DO you shouldn't hate on other professions.
Sure, its probably not in ALL cases...just in the majority. Not hating on professions...just on certain people for not coming clean for their true reasons. Just like I hate on DO students who make BS claims for the reason they went to a DO school.
I like that analogy. I mentioned my case above somewhere in this thread. I had a 2.45 undergrad GPA. Despite the fact that I got my masters with a 3.75 in 70 credits my cumulative GPA was something like a 2.9. AFAIK my masters credits wouldnt have even budged that undergrad GPA...making my AMCAS GPA 2.45. Would never have had my application make it past the secretary despite my 10 years of full time clinical experience and great masters GPA. Its a fact. No excuses made. I never would have gotten into an MD with that undergrad cloud over my head. I wasnt going to do a SMP or retake all of undergrad. My intelligence wasnt the issue. Med school acceptance is a game. You need to strategize the best you can and play the game to the best of your ability. Thats all there is to it. PCOM FTW in my case. No shame....I get to be a doctor.
Actually, now that you pointed it out, pretty damn funny how hypocritical he can be.
at that same unfortunate DMU interview I went to, the other applicants sat down in a pow-wow while waiting for the actual interview and just hated on MDs and MD programs for about a half hour. The fact that they had an average 25 mcat between them was strangely absent from the list of reasons.... sorry, there was no non-snarky way to put that
guys cut this bullsht out
awwww, and right when the major players on both sides of the argument were starting to play nice
lol I see you do not like being called out.
Sucks to be caught up in your own hypocrisy, eh?
Keep us all updated in the future with how that works out for you.
Best of luck.
I have no reason to ignore you. I can't take you or your hypocritical spiels seriously enough... I just scroll through them.
Best of luck.
Sure, its probably not in ALL cases...just in the majority. Not hating on professions...just on certain people for not coming clean for their true reasons. Just like I hate on DO students who make BS claims for the reason they went to a DO school.
What they say may be their true reasons, and they could be doing their profession because they want to, not because they weren't smart enough/driven. I say this is fairly analogous to MD students thinking that DOs aren't smart enough/driven. If you want respect please show respect. I know plenty of smart people going into nursing who could have easily made into MD, let alone DO (means they were more and intelligent and driven then you were, yet we can't judge you based on past performance?). When they site their reasons for not going MD I believe them. I don't assume that they must've wanted to go MD and write them off as dumb...
Honestly that post makes me think if you were MD you would be hating on DOs....
Depends on whether you think success as an undergrad has anything to do with your capacity to be a successful physician. I personally dont think the two correlate at all. Its like people here act like "zomgs you need a 30 or above to be a great physician," which in reality couldnt be further from the truth. Its also like saying, understanding SN2 reactions (thats like the only thing I remember from orgo when i took it in 2002) has some bearing on your med school success. Some people are better at some things than others...and a lot of what is tested as a premed never gets mentioned again in med school (I would say most). Organic and physics sucked for me as an undergrad and I think I got C-s in both....have I see ANY organic chemistry/physics concepts come up in med school.....nope. My inferior knowledge of physics and organic chemistry havent impeded my success at all (well I did get a 11 on my physical sciences and a 10 in bio sciences on the MCAT, so maybe my knowledge isnt lacking).
I respectfully disagree. I cant even begin to see how they can really be compared. In one argument an individual is talking down about people who have made it into med school...and likely are doing fine and will make fine doctors...based on premedical stats that have little/nothing to do with real life med school performance.
In another argument one is poking fun at people who make outlandish claims about their reasons for not even trying to embark on the journey. The similarities between the two are few. The fact is, there ARE plenty of people who simply cannot be doctors because they arent intelligent or driven enough. This goes for ANY career path. Its a fact....and its totally fine. Its just funny to listen to the reasons these people come up with to explain this.
And sure, some people may have gone the nursing route for personal reasons. Remember I am older and had a career before med school...and have met hundreds of nurses. Ive only met a few I think would actually make it through a bachelors degree and into med school. Most are perfectly content in their jobs/qualifications, but ive also met plenty who also like to make interesting claims about why they couldnt make it into med school.
Either way, no disrespect was meant in my generic example, and it was made as a passing comment. Wasnt even something I really put any thought into...although perhaps I should have considering the fact that you and frazier think that me saying it makes me contradictory.
And NO I wouldnt be talking down about DOs. I grew up in a family of MDs in a DO heavy area and my father and all my other relatives that are MDs never had a bad word to say about the DOs they worked with.
Either way, I have contributed all I will contribute to this thread since (as all MD vs DO threads do) we are now just running in circles and resorting to personal attacks (myself included) instead of discussing anything meaningful.
I have been following your debate with Frazier and at this post I think you are being irrational. You think one's performance on undergrad don't correlate with one's performance in medical school at all??? AT ALL??? Are you serious? Obviously not 100% but at least 70% right? Are you telling me the guy who can't even understand simple biology processes can make a competent doctor?? I have a hard time believing that.
Sure understanding the SN2 reaction better than the other guy does not make you a better doctor but that specific knowledge about SN2 is not the point. The point is the thinking and skills it takes to understand the reaction. That thinking and skills will be used to understand harder concepts in medical school. So MCAT wasn't really testing your knowledge of SN2 but rather your cognitive function even though it is not the perfect test but it's the best we have.
It's great that medical school is working out for you but you can't say the same for all the people who struggled through undergrad and score a 24 on the MCAT for example. What is the percentage of those people you can say will be as good as you are with confidence?
I'm just curious as to why students favor Allopathic schools. Osteopathic seems like it is every pre-med student's back-up plan instead of what they are actually aiming for. There isn't really a right or wrong answer on this, I just want to know your thoughts on the matter.
Why do you think Allopathic is usually first choice?
Atleast to me it seemed like you were judging people who did not have the intelligence or drive to get into medical school. The reason these people wouldn't be able to get into medical school was there stats. So here you are equating not having the stats to not being intelligent/driven which is the exact same thing Frazier did. Could be I be misinterpreting what you said? Maybe. But if I was in thread where I was requesting that no judgement be passed on my profession, I personally would have avoided judging individuals in other professions.
No I am not judging anyone for it. Personally I think I (we) are all crazy for doing and I dont blame anyone for not having the drive. There are plenty of fields I am not smart enough for (read: anything involving complicated math). Thats fine. I wasnt judging anyone...just merely poking fun at the excuses people make for not going to med school. Like I said before, I made this comment in passing, wasnt even fully considering how what I was saying, and meant no disrespect by it. Lets just move past the issue okay? I apologize if I offended anyone with what I said and it wasnt my intent to disrespect anyone or their careers.
I have been following your debate with Frazier and at this post I think you are being irrational. You think one's performance on undergrad don't correlate with one's performance in medical school at all??? AT ALL??? Are you serious? Obviously not 100% but at least 70% right? Are you telling me the guy who can't even understand simple biology processes can make a competent doctor?? I have a hard time believing that.
Sure understanding the SN2 reaction better than the other guy does not make you a better doctor but that specific knowledge about SN2 is not the point. The point is the thinking and skills it takes to understand the reaction. That thinking and skills will be used to understand harder concepts in medical school. So MCAT wasn't really testing your knowledge of SN2 but rather your cognitive function even though it is not the perfect test but it's the best we have.
It's great that medical school is working out for you but you can't say the same for all the people who struggled through undergrad and score a 24 on the MCAT for example. What is the percentage of those people you can say will be as good as you are with confidence?
.I have been following your debate with Frazier and at this post I think you are being irrational. You think one's performance on undergrad don't correlate with one's performance in medical school at all??? AT ALL??? Are you serious? Obviously not 100% but at least 70% right? Are you telling me the guy who can't even understand simple biology processes can make a competent doctor?? I have a hard time believing that.
With all due respect, you are a premed and have nothing to base your opinions on. You have spent zero time in med school. You are taking what I said to the absolute extreme. Of course someone who cant understand basic biology isnt going to hack it in med school (or undergrad). I am referring to the idea that someone who has a 3.3-3.4 is going to make a lesser physician than someone with a 3.6 or something of that nature. People grow up, people mature, and as someone who is still in college I wouldnt expect you to understand this. I still stand by my statement that WITHIN REASON the grades you get as an undergrad dont per se mean anything. I am NOT saying that someone who cant even understand basic concepts is going to make it in med school.
Sure understanding the SN2 reaction better than the other guy does not make you a better doctor but that specific knowledge about SN2 is not the point. The point is the thinking and skills it takes to understand the reaction. That thinking and skills will be used to understand harder concepts in medical school. So MCAT wasn't really testing your knowledge of SN2 but rather your cognitive function even though it is not the perfect test but it's the best we have.
It's great that medical school is working out for you but you can't say the same for all the people who struggled through undergrad and score a 24 on the MCAT for example. What is the percentage of those people you can say will be as good as you are with confidence?
I wouldnt really say a 24 is struggling. It may not be "up to snuff" but we as people in/going to med school forget that a 3.0 etc is still a solid GPA....may not get you into med school, but I wouldnt exactly say a B average in a difficult science based curriculum is "struggling." If WVSOM students were failing out/not passing boards the school wouldnt exist. So obviously these students are doing fine in med school, passing boards, and becoming fine docs. Look at the step 1 score ensuii posted? Thats a DAMN SOLID score...and he outscored X percentage of MD students coming from a school in which the MCAT and GPA were on the low side (dont know what percentile a 240 something is...but I know its up there...considering average is low 220s)
So in closing, does your undergrad GPA mean SOMETHING? Sure. But it doesnt mean as much as premeds think it does. But then again, I understand to a degree. I remember what it was like to be a premed/ early college grad. You are proud of your GPA and MCAT. Its all youve gotten up to this point and its easy to think it means more than it really does.
Plus the actually OP question was already fully answered about 80 posts ago here:Nothing constructive, just arguing...
1) MD schools have higher admissions standards than DO schools on average.
2) MD students have more research opportunities than their DO counterparts.
3) MD students have a easier time matching into top academic programs in nearly every specialty (EM/FM are possible exceptions; my guess is that at the top academic EM programs such as BWH, MD students are still favored but I'm not sure about top community/communiversity programs like highland, carolinas, etc. 4/42 of the residents at Wisconsin's fam med program (top 3) were DOs)
4) In many cases DO schools are more expensive and have worse clinical sites than their MD counterparts.
5) If you're interested in primary care or private practice in many specialties, you likely won't be handicapped by attending a DO school.
/thread
Okie dokie, I'll drop the issue. I think this thread should just get a lock. Nothing constructive, just arguing...
...wasn't SN2 like the easiest reaction in all of ochem?
Depends on whether you think success as an undergrad has anything to do with your capacity to be a successful physician. I personally dont think the two correlate at all. Its like people here act like "zomgs you need a 30 or above to be a great physician," which in reality couldnt be further from the truth. Its also like saying, understanding SN2 reactions (thats like the only thing I remember from orgo when i took it in 2002) has some bearing on your med school success. Some people are better at some things than others...and a lot of what is tested as a premed never gets mentioned again in med school (I would say most).
So in closing, does your undergrad GPA mean SOMETHING? Sure. But it doesnt mean as much as premeds think it does. But then again, I understand to a degree. I remember what it was like to be a premed/ early college grad. You are proud of your GPA and MCAT. Its all youve gotten up to this point and its easy to think it means more than it really does..
Obviously you are a subpar student if you can't remember what a SN2 reaction isI had cited that above somewhere bcs its the only reaction I remembered from orgo (took it in 03) at that point. I since have remembered something called a diels alder reaction...and that it may or may not have involved some sort of dienes? Feel free to use that in SN2s place.
You were the one who first took it to the extreme by saying that. I didn't need to push anything.
Edit: My extreme example was just to illustrate your point that if the two don't correlate AT ALL then somebody who can't understand simple biology must have a decent shot at being ok in medical school right?
Obviously you are a subpar student if you can't remember what a SN2 reaction is
(Read post with a heaping dose of sarcasm)