Why is Allopathic school favored over Osteopathic?

[SpecterGT260]

if im being honest I am not comfortable with non-physicians playing PCP's. Had too many bad experiences with PAs in primary care who cannot operate proficiently outside of their "bread and butter" experience. I suspect NPs are going to be the same way.

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[flodhi1]

I don't think NPs will be allowed to practice on their own. The idea of that is just outrageous.

 

[235788]

I don't think NPs will be allowed to practice on their own. The idea of that is just outrageous.

I agree.

However, Politicians would like to blow the newspapers up with articles about the xxx millions in savings.

there are no free lunches in this world. Cutting corners will catch up.

This thread is slowly but surely making its way to greatness. I'm shocked its at 7 pages.

 

[DeterminedDoc]

Yes MD schools require greater stats but that does not mean their students will become greater physicians.

Yes absolutely, because getting a 37 on the MCAT versus a 27 shows that you are both equally intelligent and capable human beings. Stats and ability don't correlate at all.

The fact of the matter is that DO applicants might have a lower MCAT score than you wannabe MDs but that does not mean they can't score higher than you on the boards, land better residencies than you, become richer than you.

Yea because that's the story of every DO out there. While that maybe true for some, I doubt its the case for the majority of DOs, they are either equally bad or worse off than MDs.

It's because, like I said earlier, any remotely competitive candidate will withdraw from the DO match and apply ACGME. The DO rads programs are all community programs in mostly undesirable areas. I posted a link on the previous page listing them all.

Wow, DO's sure know how to throw a residency......lol

Nurse practitioners are fighting for independent practice.

Congress continues to threaten to cut physician Medicare payments by over 20%. Last minute reprieves are all that save physician reinbursements.

There is no malpractice tort reform in sight.

There is talk of cutting ACGME funding, which could mean that either there won't be enough residency spots for you guys, or that you might have to pay tuition to do residency.

And yet all of you premeds and med students are wasting energy and breath arguing over the superiority of allopathic over osteopathic schools?!

And no, I'm not a DO who is "hypersensitive," as I'm sure some of you are thinking. I'm an MD who thinks that all of you should be more worried about preserving the future of the profession that we BOTH practice, MD and DO alike.

[/rant]

+ 100 (even though Im still ranting)

 

[Charles_Carmichael]

I don't think NPs will be allowed to practice on their own. The idea of that is just outrageous.

I agree.

However, Politicians would like to blow the newspapers up with articles about the xxx millions in savings.

there are no free lunches in this world. Cutting corners will catch up.

This thread is slowly but surely making its way to greatness. I'm shocked its at 7 pages.

They can already practice independently, without any physician oversight, in many states. The number of states that allow independent practice is only going to increase in the future since the precedent has already been set. That train left the station a long time ago.

The only thing we can really do now, IMHO, is specifically define what the practice of medicine is (since APNs practice "advanced nursing" and not medicine) so the boundaries of medicine are better protected and advocate for better training for NPs/DNPs to ensure QA/QC and not put patients at risk.

 

[235788]

They can already practice independently, without any physician oversight, in many states. The number of states that allow independent practice is only going to increase in the future since the precedent has already been set. That train left the station a long time ago.

The only thing we can really do now, IMHO, is specifically define what the practice of medicine is (since APNs practice "advanced nursing" and not medicine) so the boundaries of medicine are better protected and advocate for better training for NPs/DNPs to ensure QA/QC and not put patients at risk.

i like how you think. Unfortunately, most of us won't be able to do anything besides pester our state legislators. Maybe some AMA members are lurking (yeah right)?

Maybe SDN could take up some of the cause (but will probably not happen), just like how google and other sites destroyed SOPA/PIPA

 

[sliceofbread136]

i like how you think. Unfortunately, most of us won't be able to do anything besides pester our state legislators. Maybe some AMA members are lurking (yeah right)?

Maybe SDN could take up some of the cause (but will probably not happen), just like how google and other sites destroyed SOPA/PIPA

Ya and maybe the world will explode tomorrow

 

[235788]

Ya and maybe the world will explode tomorrow

wishful thinking, maybe Iran is closer to a nuke than we think...

 

[SpecterGT260]

wishful thinking, making Iran is closer to a nuke than we think...

cant tell if engrish....


or i'm too tired

 

[235788]

cant tell if engrish....


or i'm too tired

changed train of thought midway. Fixed it

 

[SpecterGT260]

I hate it when that happens lol

 

[flodhi1]

Yes absolutely, because getting a 37 on the MCAT versus a 27 shows that you are both equally intelligent and capable human beings. Stats and ability don't correlate at all.

Your sarcasm just makes you out to be an idiot. Knowledge and practicality are two totally different things. I've seen ridiculously smart students that are book smart as hell but have no common sense. You could have all the knowledge in the world get a 45 on the MCAT and a 260 on the boards but if you don't know how to interact with patients and have little to no common sense then how can you be such a great physician? However, if someone scores a 27 on the MCAT a 220 on the boards but can really build a relationship with patients, has more common sense and is more practical then I think you would be a greater physician even with lower stats. You premeds are so stuck on GPA and MCATs, it makes you idiots feel godly. Most traditional students have no experiences outside college and so they act like they know everything. I understand that your horizon doesn't go any where beyond stats but trust me being a Physician is a lot more than stats but ehh how would you know that? have you even shadowed a physician? I've worked with military and civilian doctors that are wonderful MDs even with the most bull **** stats in undergrad. It's like going up to someone in high school and saying hey you're going to be wonderful in any profession because you scored really high on the SATs wtf?

 

[flodhi1]

You've done it several times before and I don't understand your address of "you premeds". Dude, not to call you out, but you aren't actually a med student yet...you haven't even had a single classroom session. You are, in fact, still a pre-med.

Yes I am a premed indeed but when I say "you premeds" I am talking about the specific group of premeds that think stats are everything and run around talking crap on this thread, not every single premed out there. I am a premed that likes to help people, that does not think he is superior to anyone, that does not talk **** about any profession or medical schools such as DO schools in this thread DO vs MD.

(Not that it matters but I've already taken medical school classes with Georgetown medical students in Georgetown's SMP program) and from my own experience I have seen kids with bull **** grades in undergrad, low MCAT grades become top students of the class easily beating the medical students in the class.

 

[235788]

Yes I am a premed indeed but when I say "you premeds" I am talking about the specific group of premeds that think stats are everything and run around talking crap on this thread, not every single premed out there. I am a premed that likes to help people, that does not think he is superior to anyone, that does not talk **** about any profession or medical schools such as DO schools in this thread DO vs MD.

(Not that it matters but I've already taken medical school classes with Georgetown medical students in Georgetown's SMP program) and from my own experience I have seen kids with bull **** grades in undergrad, low MCAT grades become top students of the class easily beating the medical students in the class.

SMPs are awesome. They really don't get enough credit on here.

 

[flodhi1]

Were you in their SMP program? Never knew that. I will have to go through your mdapps more carefully.

Yes, the Georgetown SMP program is integrated with the medical school. The kids in the SMP program take courses with the med students which you probably already know. I took the first semester and decided to drop out the last semester since I was having financial issues (each semester is close to 15k just in tuition), I had already received an acceptance and the schools that had accepted me gave me permission. Also my MDapp does not talk about myself, talking about me is totally irrelevant. My MDapp mostly talks about the steps that future premeds can take in strengthening their applications and the stuff that I wish I knew.

 

[flodhi1]

SMPs are awesome. They really don't get enough credit on here.

Well this is studentdoc and everything here is hyped only the high undergrad stats are worshiped. God forbid someone say anything to those stat lovers. if you're able to complete a SMP program with a high GPA then you should be able to handle the initial years of medical schools. I think SMP programs are great for people to prove to admission committees that even though they messed up in undergrad they are still fully capable of handling the course load. Unfortunately though if a student messes up a SMP program then the doors are completely closed so people have to be careful and not BS around.

 

[RogueUnicorn]

Best post in this thread.

Who cares about DO vs. MD when (D)NP >> MD/DO? The issues smq listed are far more relevant to the reality of medicine. Time and effort would be better spent focusing on these issues that will have a tangible impact on us in the future rather meaningless in-fighting.

you chicken littles need to give that crap a rest. like it or not midlevels fill a currently necessary niche in healthcare and generally function as valuable team members. get over it.

 

[scotchtapetest]

Btw, just to update us on the whole DO residency thing and how everyone doing ROAD apparently applies DO and are withdrawn from the MD match... 5/30 of the DO rads spots went unfilled this year.

BTW, just for me to update you on the whole DO residency thing (since you brought it up):

Out of the 5 "unfilled" spots, only 1 actually went unfilled. The other 4 were never placed in the match (didn't go through the AOA match) as they were recently accredited and didn't have time to interview anyone prior to the match. Therefore, they decided to take all of their residents outside the match this year.

 

[shinbeats]

Well this is studentdoc and everything here is hyped only the high undergrad stats are worshiped. God forbid someone say anything to those stat lovers. if you're able to complete a SMP program with a high GPA then you should be able to handle the initial years of medical schools. I think SMP programs are great for people to prove to admission committees that even though they messed up in undergrad they are still fully capable of handling the course load. Unfortunately though if a student messes up a SMP program then the doors are completely closed so people have to be careful and not BS around.

SMPs are awesome. They really don't get enough credit on here.

SMPs are awesome but hella tough especially for kids that don't have great study habits. I agree though if you are able to do good in SMP programs then you can easily take on medical school. By the way some people hate the fact that Georgetown combines their classes for SMP and medical school. I on the other hand think it's awesome because it creates an atmosphere where there is friendly competition

 

[drizzt3117]

BTW, just for me to update you on the whole DO residency thing (since you brought it up):

Out of the 5 "unfilled" spots, only 1 actually went unfilled. The other 4 were never placed in the match (didn't go through the AOA match) as they were recently accredited and didn't have time to interview anyone prior to the match. Therefore, they decided to take all of their residents outside the match this year.

Cool, are those the Henry Ford Macomb positions? I thought those were going to be part of the allo match with the rest of the Ford seats.

There's something like 500 community positions available in the ACGME rads match. Some are very good programs and others are in very desirable locations, but I would guess at least half are pretty
comparable to the DO rads spots w/ the main difference being that MD students can't apply to the
DO spots. Most of the DO students with higher stats (step 1 > 240) that I've seen have been able to match into low/mid tier academic programs ( like Arkansas, MCW, and some at Pittsburgh, which is a top tier program that appears to be the most DO friendly rads program) and good community programs in rads (St Lukes-Roosevelt, Ford, etc) so my guess is the better applicants all bypassed the AOA match.

 

[235788]

SMPs are awesome but hella tough especially for kids that don't have great study habits. I agree though if you are able to do good in SMP programs then you can easily take on medical school. By the way some people hate the fact that Georgetown combines their classes for SMP and medical school. I on the other hand think it's awesome because it creates an atmosphere where there is friendly competition

a little friendly competition never hurt anyone

 

[scotchtapetest]

Your sarcasm just makes you out to be an idiot. Knowledge and practicality are two totally different things. I've seen ridiculously smart students that are book smart as hell but have no common sense. You could have all the knowledge in the world get a 45 on the MCAT and a 260 on the boards but if you don't know how to interact with patients and have little to no common sense then how can you be such a great physician? However, if someone scores a 27 on the MCAT a 220 on the boards but can really build a relationship with patients, has more common sense and is more practical then I think you would be a greater physician even with lower stats. You premeds are so stuck on GPA and MCATs, it makes you idiots feel godly. Most traditional students have no experiences outside college and so they act like they know everything. I understand that your horizon doesn't go any where beyond stats but trust me being a Physician is a lot more than stats but ehh how would you know that? have you even shadowed a physician? I've worked with military and civilian doctors that are wonderful MDs even with the most bull **** stats in undergrad. It's like going up to someone in high school and saying hey you're going to be wonderful in any profession because you scored really high on the SATs wtf?

Thanks for bringing some commonsense to the thread!

Every pre-med thinks that they are the s*** for getting into medical school (doesn't matter who or where) and that they are the smartest person on the planet while being God's gift to humanity. However, about 1 week into medical school they'll realize that they are barely an average medical student and are lucky to even get an average score on a test.

So congratulations on your acceptances; I wish you all the best of luck, but please come back after your first Anatomy test and tell us how smart you all are then!

 

[drizzt3117]

Just out of curiosity, IIRC, there's like 3500 DO seats now, right? So only 40% of DOs are doing osteopathic residencies now? Or have some of these new schools not had a MS4 class yet?

 

[RogueUnicorn]

Thanks for bringing some commonsense to the thread!

Every pre-med thinks that they are the s*** for getting into medical school (doesn't matter who or where) and that they are the smartest person on the planet while being God's gift to humanity. However, about 1 week into medical school they'll realize that they are barely an average medical student and are lucky to even get an average score on a test.

So congratulations on your acceptances; I wish you all the best of luck, but please come back after your first Anatomy test and tell us how smart you all are then!

i'm still pretty fcking smart, thanks

 

[scotchtapetest]

Cool, are those the Henry Ford Macomb positions? I thought those were going to be part of the allo match with the rest of the Ford seats.

There's something like 500 community positions available in the ACGME rads match. Some are very good programs and others are in very desirable locations, but I would guess at least half are pretty
comparable to the DO rads spots w/ the main difference being that MD students can't apply to the
DO spots. Most of the DO students with higher stats (step 1 > 240) that I've seen have been able to match into low/mid tier academic programs ( like Arkansas, MCW, and some at Pittsburgh, which is a top tier program that appears to be the most DO friendly rads program) and good community programs in rads (St Lukes-Roosevelt, Ford, etc) so my guess is the better applicants all bypassed the AOA match.

No they are not (they are in FL) and you can't just put AOA accredited spots/seats in with ACGME spots (it doesn't work that way, you can't just "transfer"). I don't know anything about Radiology programs so I can't really help you with them besides what I've already said.

 

[FattySlug]

Thanks for bringing some commonsense to the thread!

EVERY pre-med thinks that they are the s*** for getting into medical school (doesn't matter who or where) and that they are the smartest person on the planet while being God's gift to humanity. However, about 1 week into medical school they'll realize that they are barely an average medical student and are lucky to even get an average score on a test.

So congratulations on your acceptances; I wish you all the best of luck, but please come back after your first Anatomy test and tell us how smart you all are then!

Stop with the hyperbole or are you talking about yourself here?

 

[scotchtapetest]

Just out of curiosity, IIRC, there's like 3500 DO seats now, right? So only 40% of DOs are doing osteopathic residencies now? Or have some of these new schools not had a MS4 class yet?

AOA match participation rate is 45-50% depending on the year. Most people going into competitive specialties apply/match AOA while in less competitive specialties, most people go ACGME. The percentages obviously vary based on different COMs.

 

[sliceofbread136]

you stuart littles need to give that crap a rest. like it or not midlevels fill a currently necessary niche in healthcare and generally function as valuable team members. get over it.

NO! We want to be doctors so we have to hate on those "lower on the ladder". How dare you tell us not to do this!

 

[SpecterGT260]

I don't think the problem is with their current niche. it is with them wanting a bigger slice of the pie without having the same level of training. even RN's think they know just as much medicine as the docs do. The major issue is they are VERY good with the "bread and butter" type cases. but they will fall on their faces once an unusual case comes along - and they get to write this off with confirmation bias every time they accurately predict whatever meds a pt needs before the physician orders them, but whenever they are wrong (chances are) the doc didnt do what they thought anyways and these instances are not logged in long term memory.

I can't tell you the number of times an RN has told me after hearing im in med school "well don't be one of those ******* doctors and listen to your nurses". Sorry, its MY ass if this isnt right and your training is strictly patient management, not diagnostic. I will cover my bases before prescribing the potentially fatal drug for the disease you think he has thankyouverymuch.

in ALL of these support/alternative/whatever conversations, nobody (reasonable) is saying these people don't have a place in medicine. what we are saying is they need to be happy within the confines of the profession they chose and were trained for and stop trying to play doctor without an actual medical license.

sure primary care non-physicians can be helpful for checking the sniffles, but every instance of non run-of-the-mill cases ive seen handled by non-physicians that I have seen has been misdiagnosed.

 

[RogueUnicorn]

I don't think the problem is with their current niche. it is with them wanting a bigger slice of the pie without having the same level of training. even RN's think they know just as much medicine as the docs do. The major issue is they are VERY good with the "bread and butter" type cases. but they will fall on their faces once an unusual case comes along - and they get to write this off with confirmation bias every time they accurately predict whatever meds a pt needs before the physician orders them, but whenever they are wrong (chances are) the doc didnt do what they thought anyways and these instances are not logged in long term memory.

I can't tell you the number of times an RN has told me after hearing im in med school "well don't be one of those ******* doctors and listen to your nurses". Sorry, its MY ass if this isnt right and your training is strictly patient management, not diagnostic. I will cover my bases before prescribing the potentially fatal drug for the disease you think he has thankyouverymuch.

in ALL of these support/alternative/whatever conversations, nobody (reasonable) is saying these people don't have a place in medicine. what we are saying is they need to be happy within the confines of the profession they chose and were trained for and stop trying to play doctor without an actual medical license.

sure primary care non-physicians can be helpful for checking the sniffles, but every instance of non run-of-the-mill cases ive seen handled by non-physicians that I have seen has been misdiagnosed.

to be fair, non run-of-the-mill cases get misdiagnosed by MDs as well. i don't disagree with the substance of your point, however.

i've been in hospital settings for a long time and i have yet to meet an RN who thinks s/he knows as much medicine as a doc. the few who do think they're more capable than they are will get their sht straightened out doublequick as with most such people in medicine. when they say you should listen to them it's because they're your eyes and ears, not your brain.

it's only expected that any profession will want to expand its scope - heck, podiatrists do surgery and frankly i don't exactly see them as remotely close to physicians in capacity or training. we even see this within medicine with various fields competing with each other (e.g. the cannibalization of CT surgery by interventional cards). while we must of course remain vigilant and make good arguments one way or another as the situation arises, the general panic-mongering i see regarding the DNP-boogeymen is getting out of hand. they're not coming for your wife or kids so no need to hide them.

 

[SpecterGT260]

to be fair, non run-of-the-mill cases get misdiagnosed by MDs as well. i don't disagree with the substance of your point, however.

i've been in hospital settings for a long time and i have yet to meet an RN who thinks s/he knows as much medicine as a doc. the few who do think they're more capable than they are will get their sht straightened out doublequick as with most such people in medicine. when they say you should listen to them it's because they're your eyes and ears, not your brain.

it's only expected that any profession will want to expand its scope - heck, podiatrists do surgery and frankly i don't exactly see them as remotely close to physicians in capacity or training. we even see this within medicine with various fields competing with each other (e.g. the cannibalization of CT surgery by interventional cards). while we must of course remain vigilant and make good arguments one way or another as the situation arises, the general panic-mongering i see regarding the DNP-boogeymen is getting out of hand. they're not coming for your wife or kids so no need to hide them.

I know, and I have always intended to use support staff for exactly that purpose. but after having lived with an RN and hung out with all of his friends I am also sensitive to this complaint "wtf I TOLD him that patient needed xxxx 20 min ago! its like he thinks im dumb and has to double check everything!"

and I know MDs can screw up too, but that doesn't really detract from the point only because in a flawed or non-perfect system it becomes even MORE important to do what we can to minimize errors. the best out there at diagnostics are physicians, hands down. so why increase risk of misdiagnosis by allowing people who havent had the same background training to attempt it?

 

[tiedyeddog]

I am extremely surprised this thread is still open.

 

[SpecterGT260]

probably because it hasnt been as flame-filled as many of these in the past?

 

[235788]

I am extremely surprised this thread is still open.

on the road to stardom

 

[DeterminedDoc]

Your sarcasm just makes you out to be an idiot. Knowledge and practicality are two totally different things. I've seen ridiculously smart students that are book smart as hell but have no common sense. You could have all the knowledge in the world get a 45 on the MCAT and a 260 on the boards but if you don't know how to interact with patients and have little to no common sense then how can you be such a great physician? However, if someone scores a 27 on the MCAT a 220 on the boards but can really build a relationship with patients, has more common sense and is more practical then I think you would be a greater physician even with lower stats. You premeds are so stuck on GPA and MCATs, it makes you idiots feel godly. Most traditional students have no experiences outside college and so they act like they know everything. I understand that your horizon doesn't go any where beyond stats but trust me being a Physician is a lot more than stats but ehh how would you know that? have you even shadowed a physician? I've worked with military and civilian doctors that are wonderful MDs even with the most bull **** stats in undergrad. It's like going up to someone in high school and saying hey you're going to be wonderful in any profession because you scored really high on the SATs wtf?

True, stats may not mean everything but it does account for something. You can't say that DOs are better than MDs if its harder to get into an allopathic school. If you have terrible stats (like moi) then your chances of being a physician is really slim even if you do have amazing ECs. Its just how the system works so of course we are "stuck" on it genius.

 

[SLC]

You can't say that DOs are better than MDs if its harder to get into an allopathic school.

You do realize that you can't say the opposite either, correct?

 

[flodhi1]

You do realize that you can't say the opposite either, correct?

You're wasting your time with this guy. He will argue to the point where you will actually be losing brain cells.

 

[SLC]

You're wasting your time with this guy. He will argue to the point where you will actually be losing brain cells.

It's mostly for others who will wander by and read the drivel, best to counter misinformation when it's spotted so that others don't mistake it for fact.

But I understand your point, there are quite a few lost causes on here.

 

[natorx]

so if a person was to go to a AOA residency, are you saying it would be hard for them to find a job?

I'm from Texas as example, let's say hypothetical I get into either a EM, Gas, or Rad program (AOA). Why would it be so hard to practice? I understand maybe a school hospital linked to a MD program might be hard to work at, but what about private hospitals like kaiser, Sierra Providence ect Do the majority of those recognize the AOA residency?

Thanks

 

[natorx]

Also on the whole stats = iq debate.

There are a host a reasons people get better Mcat and GPA, I think a lot of it has to do with work ethic, time management, test taking skills ect. DO student many times may of started off rocky, or late before realizing there passion - but end up working just as hard. By the end of it all I would say equally qualified in all reality.

So I find it hard to believe someone who got a 32 on mcat is waaaaaay smarter then the guy with the 27. The difference of those score is probably closer linked to study habits and test asking skills then actual intelligence.

The guys with the 40s yea there whiz kids.

 

[scotchtapetest]

so if a person was to go to a AOA residency, are you saying it would be hard for them to find a job?

I'm from Texas as example, let's say hypothetical I get into either a EM, Gas, or Rad program (AOA). Why would it be so hard to practice? I understand maybe a school hospital linked to a MD program might be hard to work at, but what about private hospitals like kaiser, Sierra Providence ect Do the majority of those recognize the AOA residency?

Thanks

Let me get this straight... You are asking pre-meds about board certification and jobs as attendings?

If you are interested in applying for staff privileges on SDN pre-allo forum, you are automatically disqualified based on your AOA board certification status.

Otherwise nobody gives a s***. If you are interested in academics, they look at your research/publications. If you are interested in community/private practice, if you are licensed and have a pulse, you'll get a job irrespective of your board certification type. In fact most older DOs (in practice >20 years) that are all over the place are only board certified through the AOA.

 

[SLC]

Also on the whole stats = iq debate.

There are a host a reasons people get better Mcat and GPA, I think a lot of it has to do with work ethic, time management, test taking skills ect. DO student many times may of started off rocky, or late before realizing there passion - but end up working just as hard. By the end of it all I would say equally qualified in all reality.

So I find it hard to believe someone who got a 32 on mcat is waaaaaay smarter then the guy with the 27. The difference of those score is probably closer linked to study habits and test asking skills then actual intelligence.

The guys with the 40s yea there whiz kids.

Yes, and the question remains; what does a score in the 40's on the MCAT prove about your ability to be an excellent physician in and of itself? I'd put it out there that it means absolutely nothing. It may mean that you'll likely understand the material taught, and perform well academically 1st and 2nd year and on your boards. But those in medical school will attest that academic and clinical performance are not always linked the way that some on here seem to want to believe. To be an excellent physician you have to have both. It's no secret that many people with less than stellar undergrad academic records have excelled in medical school when given the chance.

 

[Baron Samedi]

Because it's Doogie Howser, M.D.

 

[ensuii]

No they are not (they are in FL) and you can't just put AOA accredited spots/seats in with ACGME spots (it doesn't work that way, you can just "transfer"). I don't know anything about Radiology programs so I can't really help you with them besides what I've already said.

I was under the impression that's what happened to the 3XX unfilled family medicine spots...that they were made available to MDs after the DO scramble for FMGs/IMGs?

 

[scotchtapetest]

I was under the impression that's what happened to the 3XX unfilled family medicine spots...that they were made available to MDs after the DO scramble for FMGs/IMGs?

What are you talking about? I don't understand your last sentence... Are you saying FMGs/IMGs scrambled into DO spots? That's not allowed.

DO spots are accredited by the AOA which means that only US DOs can apply for them. For them to be available to MDs they need to be accredited by the ACGME. These are different entities which don't really get along that well. You can't just "make them available" to MDs even if they go unfilled.

The only thing that can happen is that if they go unmatched for 3 consecutive years, then the Feds can pull/shift funding to other programs but I don't think that's what we are talking about here and there were 25 more FM spots in the AOA match this year over last year so it didn't decrease....

 

[drizzt3117]

Let me get this straight... You are asking pre-meds about board certification and jobs as attendings?

If you are interested in applying for staff privileges on SDN pre-allo forum, you are automatically disqualified based on your AOA board certification status.

Otherwise nobody gives a s***. If you are interested in academics, they look at your research/publications. If you are interested in community/private practice, if you are licensed and have a pulse, you'll get a job irrespective of your board certification type. In fact most older DOs (in practice >20 years) that are all over the place are only board certified through the AOA.

The rads job market is soft even for MDs from top programs in academic or PP atm; I'm sure DOs are worse off.

 

[ensuii]

The rads job market is soft even for MDs from top programs in academic or PP atm; I'm sure DOs are worse off.

I think that's going out on quite a limb. Worse, I don't think finding data on the job market opportunities for DOs vs MDs is easily obtainable. In my n=1 experience, I know 3 people who have completed DO rads residencies and none of them had problems securing jobs in their hometowns/desired locations. I'm not close enough to any of them to start asking about compensation details but in my skewed perception of the quality of their homes and cars, I don't think any of them are really struggling. They could be though I guess, who knows?

Anyways, let me know if you find the data on DO vs. MD job opportunities in rads. In addition, I'd also be interested in any surveys/studies that demonstrate quantifiably how bad the market is right now for any rads graduate; would you know any?

EDIT: Considering the breadth of potential opportunities, I think I might be more inclined to agree that DOs would probably have a harder time securing those extremely premium jobs paying 1mil/yr out of residency in Boston or even the academic jobs at high-brow institutions. I'm really not so sure though that the PP gig in a suburban/small metro setting is harder to attain by being a DO. We can sit here and speculate until our faces turn blue but in the end your stance will probably parallel your thoughts on the practical significance (i.e, real-life implications) of being a DO. I think 8 pages is enough for us to have some idea of where certain people stand on that matter :-D

Anyways, I have to cram about things my preceptor probably won't even ask me about--have a great day SDNland!

 

[drizzt3117]

Well, I can tell you that DOs in the academic radiology are few and far between and every one I know completed a ACGME residency.

As far as the job market, it's bad for ACGME community grads regardless of degree right now, and every AOA grad is from a community program. It's also hard to get jobs without fellowship, something like 90% of rads grads do fellowships and they're all at academic or commuversity programs for the most part. You're at a huge disadvantage applying to those from an AOA residency because fellowship directors are much less familiar with them.

Honestly I don't think DOs who have finished an ACGME residency/fellowship are at much if any of a disadvantage when it comes to PP jobs but AOA grads are a diff story. Keep in mind that the job market has only been bad for the last 3-5 years so the experiences of current attendings aren't representative.

I think that's going out on quite a limb. Worse, I don't think finding data on the job market opportunities for DOs vs MDs is easily obtainable. In my n=1 experience, I know 3 people who have completed DO rads residencies and none of them had problems securing jobs in their hometowns/desired locations. I'm not close enough to any of them to start asking about compensation details but in my skewed perception of the quality of their homes and cars, I don't think any of them are really struggling. They could be though I guess, who knows?

Anyways, let me know if you find the data on DO vs. MD job opportunities in rads. In addition, I'd also be interested in any surveys/studies that demonstrate quantifiably how bad the market is right now for any rads graduate; would you know any?

EDIT: Considering the breadth of potential opportunities, I think I might be more inclined to agree that DOs would probably have a harder time securing those extremely premium jobs paying 1mil/yr out of residency in Boston or even the academic jobs at high-brow institutions. I'm really not so sure though that the PP gig in a suburban/small metro setting is harder to attain by being a DO. We can sit here and speculate until our faces turn blue but in the end your stance will probably parallel your thoughts on the practical significance (i.e, real-life implications) of being a DO. I think 8 pages is enough for us to have some idea of where certain people stand on that matter :-D

Anyways, I have to cram about things my preceptor probably won't even ask me about--have a great day SDNland!

 

[blizzah]

However, about 1 week into medical school they'll realize that they are barely an average medical student and are lucky to even get an average score on a test.

So congratulations on your acceptances; I wish you all the best of luck, but please come back after your first Anatomy test and tell us how smart you all are then!

Does well above average on the MCAT count?

 

[Instatewaiter]

I don't think NPs will be allowed to practice on their own. The idea of that is just outrageous.

They already do in a whole host of states. Contact your congressman.

I am a premed that likes to help people

I vomited a little in my mouth.

Please come back and re-read this little tid-bit when you are almost done with your residency. You'll get a good chuckle.

I know, and I have always intended to use support staff for exactly that purpose. but after having lived with an RN and hung out with all of his friends I am also sensitive to this complaint "wtf I TOLD him that patient needed xxxx 20 min ago! its like he thinks im dumb and has to double check everything!"

When you're a resident, you will have a very different perspective becuase either use the support staff or drown. Don't be sensitive. They are there to do what you say and the responsibility is yours alone.

First the nurse doesn't know what a doctor does and no amount of experience will get them there. I can't count the number of times the nurse wanted something that would probably kill the patient. Nurses arent dumb but they're also not doctors. I order what is appropriate. If you page me for assinine stuff and I am busy, you're probably not getting a call back.

The second and more likely reason for a delay is that as a resident you have far more important things than ordering a stool softener at 2am. Stuff gets done in order of importance. Minor stuff is low down on the list. A crashing patient is pretty high on the list. You'll have a few lightbulb moments during internship when you are doing chest compressions and your pager goes off about a diet order or a stool softener or some other minor bull. You'll just chuckle and tell them to push some epi.