Why is average indebtedness so "low"?

[NapeSpikes]

Well, it's still not low--most schools are still six figures--but flipping through the MSAR, I find that the average indebtedness listed at the bottom right corner for each school seems grossly underestimated.

For instance, GW with its $40,000 tuition for four years and expensive DC living has an average indebtedness of $136,548 for the graduating class of 2004 (2006 MSAR). Even taking into consideration free ride scholarships and students who footed the bill themselves, or whose parents helped out, this seems really low.

Of course, these are older figures. But did the cost increase that much that the class of 2010 should expect well over $200,000 indebtedness?

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[DoctorPardi]

Well, it's still not low--most schools are still six figures--but flipping through the MSAR, I find that the average indebtedness listed at the bottom right corner for each school seems grossly underestimated.

For instance, GW with its $40,000 tuition for four years and expensive DC living has an average indebtedness of $136,548 for the graduating class of 2004 (2006 MSAR). Even taking into consideration free ride scholarships and students who footed the bill themselves, or whose parents helped out, this seems really low.

Of course, these are older figures. But did the cost increase that much that the class of 2010 should expect well over $200,000 indebtedness?

I noticed this too. Boston university has about 40k/year tuition and average indebtedness of 152,000. How could you owe less than the sum of your four years of tuition when you add in the expense of living in Boston?

Another one:
Washington University St. Lous - $39,720 a year tuition and average indebtedness of $92,006.

 

[thinknofu3]

Keep in mind a lot of schools have at least some sort of need-based or merit-based scholarships, and those with bigger endowments (the privates, like Wash U) have more aid to give out. While medical school is definitely expensive, very many med students receiving aid do not end up paying the listed tuition. Hence, indebtedness goes down.

 

[LO281OK]

Private schools have a greater amount of aid available due to charitable giving amounts... according to The Right Price: How to Pay for Medical School and Feel Good About It by Christine Wiebe

 

[DoctorPardi]

See I noticed a statistic about the percentage of students receiving "financial aid" in the MSAR but I thought this mainly referred to student loans.

Wash U in St. Louis' number is 91% receive financial aid, so I thought that meant 91% of their students received loans and probably some much smaller percent received need/merit scholarships or grants.

So I guess my question is, does that 91% found in the MSAR actually mean any compilation of loans, grants and scholarships, or does it refer to aid that students do not have to pay back, such as scholarships?

 

[NapeSpikes]

Well, the MSAR also lists average scholarship/grants. So contuning with my GW example, $40,000 for tuition and $17,000+ for living (though that sounds a bit low for DC), minus $14,500 average grant.

That leaves $43,000 for each of four years, so indebtedness should be around $170,000 instead of 136,000. Maybe that's just the increase from the class of 2004 to 2010? Yikes!

 

[DoctorPardi]

Well, the MSAR also lists average scholarship/grants. So contuning with my GW example, $40,000 for tuition and $17,000+ for living (though that sounds a bit low for DC), minus $14,500 average grant.

That leaves $43,000 for each of four years, so indebtedness should be around $170,000 instead of 136,000. Maybe that's just the increase from the class of 2004 to 2010? Yikes!

Yikes indeed, I need to see if I can take all my remaining classes this summer and sneak into a medical school somehow this fall, because it might be too expensive a year or two from now lol.

 

[Centinel]

Also, keep in mind the demographic that tends to get into medical school: the upper-middle and upper classes. Thus many students' educations are being subsidized by their parents.

 

[JonnyG]

People are engaged/married and living off the spouse until the time comes when the spouse can forever say "You leave me I get half cause I put your butt through school"

 

[dbhvt]

Also, keep in mind the demographic that tends to get into medical school: the upper-middle and upper classes. Thus many students' educations are being subsidized by their parents.

As far as I understand, this is the largest quantitative contribution to keeping that average indebtedness figure down at private schools. And this is why it's a really dumb statistic if you are trying to figure out how much a particular school will end up costing you. Average indebtedness is not really a way of quantifying how much aid a school gives out, as it is often characterized.

A school with a lower average indebtedness might offer more aid, or it might have richer students. The statistic asks how much students borrowed, not where the rest came from.

 

[AmoryBlaine]

Also, keep in mind the demographic that tends to get into medical school: the upper-middle and upper classes. Thus many students' educations are being subsidized by their parents.

Exactly right. There are ALOT of people in medical school who are not paying for it by taking out loans. Also, factor in people in the military who have zero debt, throw 8-10 soldiers/sailors into a class of 150 all at $0 and it will drag the avg down quite a bit.

 

[fantasty]

Exactly right. There are ALOT of people in medical school who are not paying for it by taking out loans. Also, factor in people in the military who have zero debt, throw 8-10 soldiers/sailors into a class of 150 all at $0 and it will drag the avg down quite a bit.

Also, the debt figures include everyone with loans, regardless of the amount. Someone with subsidized tuition (MSTP, armed forces, NHSC, etc) who have a small amount of loans from ug would pull the average down.

 

[dbhvt]

Also, the debt figures include everyone with loans, regardless of the amount. Someone with subsidized tuition (MSTP, armed forces, NHSC, etc) who have a small amount of loans from ug would pull the average down.

Right, don't forget the undergrad loans. Again, useless stat if you're trying t see how much a school will cost you.

 

[NonTradMed]

I will be attending a four year public school with little in the ways of grants, and the school does show a fairly close correlation between the tuition and amount of debt.

I'm thinking that wealthier schools such as Washu etc may have more access to money and give grants/scholarships more easily than public schools or poorer private schools. Look through US news and their list of debt, notice that schools like Stanford and Yale show smaller debt, especially considering their expensive price tag. I'm willing to wager that the school itself gives students much needed grant plus a higher proportionate of kids from the upper class who have parents to help out.

 

[dbhvt]

I'm going out on a limb and say the kids at Stanford and Yale med are also more likely to have rich parents.

 

[Flopotomist]

The simple math of averages allows for zeroes to appear to pull down means quite a bit. Imagine if you got one or two F's what it would do to your GPA. Now imagine that 10% of a class is paying their tuition without loans (rich parents, military etc). It brings the mean down quite a bit. I think a better figure to report would be the median - but of course the schools wouldn't go for this, we would all see how much money it was going to cost us!

 

[dbhvt]

I will be attending a four year public school with little in the ways of grants, and the school does show a fairly close correlation between the tuition and amount of debt.

I'm thinking that wealthier schools such as Washu etc may have more access to money and give grants/scholarships more easily than public schools or poorer private schools. Look through US news and their list of debt, notice that schools like Stanford and Yale show smaller debt, especially considering their expensive price tag. I'm willing to wager that the school itself gives students much needed grant plus a higher proportionate of kids from the upper class who have parents to help out.

I'm going out on a limb and say the kids at Stanford and Yale med are also more likely to have rich parents.

 

[shantster]

I'm going out on a limb and say the kids at Stanford and Yale med are also more likely to have rich parents.

Yale also has a thing where you only take out the first 17k or so in loans and then they give the rest in need-based aid.

 

[lord_jeebus]

And Stanford has a thing where working as an RA or TA essentially pays $70/hr, partially applied directly to tuition

I think the biggest factors are rich parents, military scholarships, and at some schools, the fact that need-based grants are often very substantial. At my school, if you qualify for a need-based grant, it will cover at a minimum 1/3 of the tuition. Also, nontrads often have savings that get applied to tuition, or spousal income.

My debt on graduation is going to be triple my school's "average indebtedness"

It could be worse...my undergrad debt was 6 times my school's average....

 

[newguy357]

Yes, I was wondering why my school's average indebtedness is like 130k yet somehow I'm on track to graduate with somewhere between 250k and 300k of debt.

 

[Mperor]

parents parents parents. I know a lot of students whose parents flip the entire bill for medical school. having multiple students with 0 debt when they graduate is going to significantly skew the average debt.

 

[AmoryBlaine]

Disclaimer: joke directed at M2s and above...

I think schools that publish avg debt should also have to give us the RDW.

And I'm spent.