Why is being "quiet" a bad thing on rotations?

[han14tra]

On every single one of my evaluations EXCEPT for family medicine and psychiatry, I've gotten the comment on my clinical evals that I'm "too quiet." I got honors in family med and psych, but all of my other rotations have just been Excellent. I have to assume it's because I'm quiet because that's the ONLY negative on my evals. OB really ripped me a new one over being quiet stating, "Too quiet! She really needs to challenge herself to step out of her naturally quiet nature more." Another eval stated "At times, needed to be more assertive to share her knowledge, but overall her thought processes were logical and she communicated well."

Internal med: "extremely devoted her patients and their care. She developed strong relationships with her patients, and did tasks easily that would have been expected of a intern (such as calling PCP and relaying plan of care, and goals following discharge). She really took charge of managing her patients, even calling and discussing plans of care and inpatient stays with outpatient providers. However, she was a bit quiet." Recommend: Excellent

Why is quiet a bad thing and keeping me from honors? The "quiet" that I believe they are talking about is with them and not the patients. Just because I cannot shoot the breeze with the residents and keep them entertained for hours, I don't get honors. I don't understand it.

Let's look at what the psychiatrists had to say on my eval:

"She was extremely professional, and always respectful towards the staff and her patients. She went above and beyond when looking out for her patients best interests. In one instance the patient was on the wrong dose of medication and she brought it to the attention of both residents and attendings. Her interviewing skills are some of the best I've seen, and will continue to grow with practice and experience."

Family Med:
"A leader among her classmates --- studying and discussing topics with her peers. Very strong knowledge, but superior in practical thinking. She was able to use common sense and extrapolate wisely. She also showed the ability to decipher hidden agendas that patients had; in one instance, uncovering that a patient who presented with vague complaints actually had depression. The same patient told me that no doctor has ever made her feel as comfortable bringing up her emotions as the student did, and the patient actually requested to see the student at her follow-up in 2 weeks."

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[MilkmanAl]

Like it or not, medicine is not a field for quiet, reserved people. You're asking strangers about their pooping habits on a daily basis and basically poking and prodding them at will. You've got to be direct and assertive to some degree, or you won't get anything done.

 

[Rollo]

Being quiet shows either you aren't interested or aren't interesting. Nobody wants to work with either of those two kinds of people.

 

[VenusinFurs]

It sounds like he/she is fine with asking about poops, the problem is with appearing too timid to attendings.

Attendings equate quietness with poor communication skills. I actually could use work on my communication skills and I've gotten comments on my evals about it. But the thing is, you could say almost anything, and if you say it with enough confidence people will pay attention and find you credible. Medicine is full of people who are loud and assertive; you have to be able to work with them.

But your OB attendings comments are by no means "ripping you a new one." You haven't had a bad eval! This is from someone who knows!

I've just given up on getting really high grades on subjective evaluations so I don't have much advice for you aside from working on your acting skills.

 

[VenusinFurs]

Being quiet shows either you aren't interested or aren't interesting. Nobody wants to work with either of those two kinds of people.

No

 

[MeRLin443]

Why is quiet a bad thing?

This means you are no fun to work with, and that they didn't get to know your personality at all.

 

[medhope4]

Dear, Applicant.


. You were too quiet during your rotations, but you had excellent grades, board scores and are extremely knowledgable. But the other guy had more "balls" and voiced his/her annoying opinion and wrong answers constantly during our rotation. And frankly, we believe this equates to more success in life and we were more impressed by this particular individual. So, we have decided to offer the other guy the surgical residency, and you'll be stuck in some crazy psychiatry ward.

Love, Some idiotic Person


This being said, I don't feel bad THAT bad for you. I feel bad for the patient that has to undergo surgery from some incomptent, yet loud mouthed surgeon.

 

[HalladayWeekend]

Evals are subjective and with that being said, you are doing very well. Everyone can't get honors on a rotation so being an excellent is really just that. Residency PD's are aware of this subjectivity so I wouldn't stress too much about it. If it is something that has been said on multiple evals, however, there is probably something to it. As was mentioned, these 3rd year evals don't correlate very well with your actual competence in being a physician. However, being quiet, which certainly won't hurt you as a physician as long as you communicate with your patients, is looked down upon during 3rd year evals. Either try to work on this the rest of the year to improve on whatever evals you have left or just stay the way you are and move on.

 

[KnuxNole]

I'm a bit shy/quiet, but gotten Honors on rotations. It's basically about being sociable to an extent. You DON'T have to be a social butterfly to be a doctor, and there are lots of quiet residents/attendings in all specialties. One surgeon in my rotation was this quiet guy, but he was brilliant, got along with the other attendings, patients all loved him, and was efficient in procedures.

I'm a quiet guy, BUT fun to talk to, it's just instead of talking all the time, just half the time

 

[jcu]

Being quiet is often misconstrued as lacking confidence. You might be very confident internally about your physical exam and differentials but if you are unable to outwardly convey them with a confident demeanor, this can affect the way you're perceived. I think your evals are great thus far though so don't get too bummed out. Just try to work on what others perceive to be a weakness for now.

 

[MossPoh]

It is a perception thing. I am on the quiet side too and tend to be an introspective thinker that likes to get the information, hash it all out and organize it before jumping out and saying an answer. It isn't a bad quality in life, but it is perceived as not knowing anything, not showing leadership and not being engaged. It is the same reason the annoyingly loud extrovert who doesn't seem to know anything always gets nominated for leadership positions. People perceive that the extrovert knows much more because they are vocal with the information and are much more willing to shoot from the hip.

More than likely, you are fantastic at one-on-one interactions with patients and attendings, but as soon as a group comes into the mix, you get dominated by loudness and don't really feel you have anything to contribute to the conversation. If you do contribute, it is going to be something useful.

You really have to force yourself to imitate the extroverted type to some degree. It is completely exhausting for me at the end of the day, but has paid off overall. I still get the occasional comments about being quiet, but I've made sure they know it is because I'm thinking about the problem and not just spacing out. I may do that through asking a multi-faceted complex question regarding the matter or just by printing off a journal article when I get home and bringing it the next day. I also force the biggest happiest smile and borderline fake peppiness I can handle.

In the long run, it is a good quality to have but it is a difficult one to overcome preconceived notions about on the wards.

 

[ArcGurren]

Being quiet shows either you aren't interested or aren't interesting. Nobody wants to work with either of those two kinds of people.

No. And I really hope you don't go through life with that attitude towards others.

To the OP:

I'm an introvert who has had to learn really hard to try and be extrovert-like; I know exactly where you are coming from. The best thing to do is just try to speak up and be interactive; you don't have to shoot the sh** with your residents during downtime if it feels awkward or whatever, but you should try your best, especially during surgeries and whatnot, to ask questions.

Conversely, asking too many questions can be really annoying as well; it's definitely a pain in the neck to be on a rotation with a student who tries to get too philosophical and inquisitive on rounds or in the OR, especially when the only thing the rest of us want to do is to finish up and go home. So it's a fine line to tread.

Also... the majority of your evals have been very good from what it looks like, and I'm sure that will be reflected within your Dean's Letter. No worries.

 

[KnuxNole]

I like your post Arc. Makes me glad there are people who don't think being quiet = uninteresting.

Also, there are lots of people in medicine who are not too interesting to talk to...at all.

 

[unsung]

Like it or not, medicine is not a field for quiet, reserved people. You're asking strangers about their pooping habits on a daily basis and basically poking and prodding them at will. You've got to be direct and assertive to some degree, or you won't get anything done.

Yeah, but it doesn't sound like the OP has any problems doing the above. Nor doing things like confronting her superiors when they make an error (med dose).

What she's talking about is "shooting the breeze" with residents during down-time. Which I can totally relate to. I have no problems communicating with patients, whatsoever. I can also communicate well professionally with residents/attendings. What I have problems doing is the "chatting" when there's nothing to do sometimes... and this is harder for a less outgoing person.

I can give a presentation to 20 attendings with no problem. I can act social with patients & have a good rapport. But it's different when it's about inserting myself into group conversations about cross-country skiing (or some such), when I don't like the activity, personally & have no way to contribute. Plus when louder people are dominating the conversation, it's even harder for me to insert myself... hence I bet I can also be seen as "quiet" sometimes.

Though none of my evals has actually used that term, to date. Weird. Lol.

 

[Depakote]

As someone who has had to do a number of evaluations this year, when you get to evaluating a student and realize they just stood there on rounds, only presented their patients, never asked any questions and was generally silent unless you pulled something out of them, it's difficult to put together an evaluation of their clinical skills.

As a student, it's your job to learn. If there's something you don't understand (and there should be lots of things you don't understand or you're note paying attention), ask questions. Be involved in what's going on with the team. As your superior, I can't tell what you're understanding/learning if you're keeping silent.

If your peers are doing the above more than you are and it's noticeable, then you might get called on it. If it's showing up on eval after eval... that's not just someone you didn't click with. That's something you need to fix.

 

[han14tra]

As someone who has had to do a number of evaluations this year, when you get to evaluating a student and realize they just stood there on rounds, only presented their patients, never asked any questions and was generally silent unless you pulled something out of them, it's difficult to put together an evaluation of their clinical skills.

As a student, it's your job to learn. If there's something you don't understand (and there should be lots of things you don't understand or you're note paying attention), ask questions. Be involved in what's going on with the team. As your superior, I can't tell what you're understanding/learning if you're keeping silent.

If your peers are doing the above more than you are and it's noticeable, then you might get called on it. If it's showing up on eval after eval... that's not just someone you didn't click with. That's something you need to fix.

I do ask questions to the residents, and I do contribute by preparing presentations, presenting patients, etc. I think the issue is that if you can personally get to know the resident and become friends with them, you're chances of honors are much higher. Who doesn't want to give their best friend honors? If you're the shy student that the resident didn't really notice, your chances of getting honors are less.

I recently spoke to a friend who got honors on every single rotation this year (which almost no one at my school is able to do). She has an infectious personality that everyone loves, she makes rounds a blast with all of her entertaining stories, and she even dated one of the residents while on their service (which I think is a little inappropriate of the resident, but that's for a different thread). I've actually rotated with her and we are very similar in terms of knowledge and clinical skills. I think the major difference is personality. Even though she's kicking my behind on rotations, I still love her. Let's face it. Personality is a major factor in your clinical grades.

 

[RySerr21]

I do ask questions to the residents, and I do contribute by preparing presentations, presenting patients, etc. I think the issue is that if you can personally get to know the resident and become friends with them, you're chances of honors are much higher. Who doesn't want to give their best friend honors? If you're the shy student that the resident didn't really notice, your chances of getting honors are less.

I recently spoke to a friend who got honors on every single rotation this year (which almost no one at my school is able to do). She has an infectious personality that everyone loves, she makes rounds a blast with all of her entertaining stories, and she even dated one of the residents while on their service (which I think is a little inappropriate of the resident, but that's for a different thread). I've actually rotated with her and we are very similar in terms of knowledge and clinical skills. I think the major difference is personality. Even though she's kicking my behind on rotations, I still love her. Let's face it. Personality is a major factor in your clinical grades.

does your shelf exam not count for anything? For a lot of rotations at my school, if you dont do well on the shelf (90th% or above), you arent going to honor. It doesnt matter what your clinical evals say.

 

[han14tra]

does your shelf exam not count for anything? For a lot of rotations at my school, if you dont do well on the shelf (90th% or above), you arent going to honor. It doesnt matter what your clinical evals say.

We get a separate grade for our shelf. It does not factor into our clinical grades.

 

[HalladayWeekend]

I do ask questions to the residents, and I do contribute by preparing presentations, presenting patients, etc. I think the issue is that if you can personally get to know the resident and become friends with them, you're chances of honors are much higher. Who doesn't want to give their best friend honors? If you're the shy student that the resident didn't really notice, your chances of getting honors are less.

I recently spoke to a friend who got honors on every single rotation this year (which almost no one at my school is able to do). She has an infectious personality that everyone loves, she makes rounds a blast with all of her entertaining stories, and she even dated one of the residents while on their service (which I think is a little inappropriate of the resident, but that's for a different thread). I've actually rotated with her and we are very similar in terms of knowledge and clinical skills. I think the major difference is personality. Even though she's kicking my behind on rotations, I still love her. Let's face it. Personality is a major factor in your clinical grades.

That is entirely the point. I know at my school, the evaluators would not be able to evaluate me on about half the rubric. As such, it becomes more of a how much did they like you. At my school, even getting honors on evals is not enough because the clerkship director can overrule. It's a silly process but we all have to live by it. This is coming from someone who honored almost all of m1 and m2. Despite great evals, I haven't got as many honors in m3.

 

[HalladayWeekend]

I do ask questions to the residents, and I do contribute by preparing presentations, presenting patients, etc. I think the issue is that if you can personally get to know the resident and become friends with them, you're chances of honors are much higher. Who doesn't want to give their best friend honors? If you're the shy student that the resident didn't really notice, your chances of getting honors are less.

I recently spoke to a friend who got honors on every single rotation this year (which almost no one at my school is able to do). She has an infectious personality that everyone loves, she makes rounds a blast with all of her entertaining stories, and she even dated one of the residents while on their service (which I think is a little inappropriate of the resident, but that's for a different thread). I've actually rotated with her and we are very similar in terms of knowledge and clinical skills. I think the major difference is personality. Even though she's kicking my behind on rotations, I still love her. Let's face it. Personality is a major factor in your clinical grades.

That is entirely the point. I know at my school, the evaluators would not be able to evaluate me on about half the rubric. As such, it becomes more of a how much did they like you. At my school, even getting honors on evals is not enough because the clerkship director can overrule. It's a silly process but we all have to live by it. This is coming from someone who honored almost all of m1 and m2. Despite great evals, I haven't got as many honors in m3. I have come to grips with the fact I don't have as much control over my grades and moved on.

 

[unsung]

I do ask questions to the residents, and I do contribute by preparing presentations, presenting patients, etc. I think the issue is that if you can personally get to know the resident and become friends with them, you're chances of honors are much higher. Who doesn't want to give their best friend honors? If you're the shy student that the resident didn't really notice, your chances of getting honors are less.

I recently spoke to a friend who got honors on every single rotation this year (which almost no one at my school is able to do). She has an infectious personality that everyone loves, she makes rounds a blast with all of her entertaining stories, and she even dated one of the residents while on their service (which I think is a little inappropriate of the resident, but that's for a different thread). I've actually rotated with her and we are very similar in terms of knowledge and clinical skills. I think the major difference is personality. Even though she's kicking my behind on rotations, I still love her. Let's face it. Personality is a major factor in your clinical grades.

Well, at least she sounds competent & smart. Let's just say I knew someone who was a total ditz from pre-med school who ended up AOA... and I *know* it's not 'cuz of her test scores. It was likely her clinical rotations, and I bet she honored most.

Attractive blonde, sociable, decently hard-working. Not the most curious or brightest or anything... but I'm sure she was able to get on the good side of most. It's a GAME, c'est la vie. Le sigh.

 

[Rollo]

I do ask questions to the residents, and I do contribute by preparing presentations, presenting patients, etc. I think the issue is that if you can personally get to know the resident and become friends with them, you're chances of honors are much higher. Who doesn't want to give their best friend honors? If you're the shy student that the resident didn't really notice, your chances of getting honors are less.

I recently spoke to a friend who got honors on every single rotation this year (which almost no one at my school is able to do). She has an infectious personality that everyone loves, she makes rounds a blast with all of her entertaining stories, and she even dated one of the residents while on their service (which I think is a little inappropriate of the resident, but that's for a different thread). I've actually rotated with her and we are very similar in terms of knowledge and clinical skills. I think the major difference is personality. Even though she's kicking my behind on rotations, I still love her. Let's face it. Personality is a major factor in your clinical grades.

Sounds like you could let yourself be infected by her personality and your problems won't seem that monumental anymore...

 

[VenusinFurs]

Sounds like you could let yourself be infected by her personality and your problems won't seem that monumental anymore...

Or just be yourself and not worry too much that not everyone likes you. No one can win at everything. For example, I don't really like Rollo right now! See?

That whole coming off as lacking confidence thing is my jam. I'm working on it by sticking my neck out more, but this last rotation that actually seemed to make things worse. I'd get so worried about seeming non-confident during rounds that I'd totally stumble over my words, thus seeming non-confident. I'll get it with practice though; I ain't gonna crib about a few Bs here and there.

 

[Rollo]

Or just be yourself and not worry too much that not everyone likes you. No one can win at everything. For example, I don't really like Rollo right now! See?

That whole coming off as lacking confidence thing is my jam. I'm working on it by sticking my neck out more, but this last rotation that actually seemed to make things worse. I'd get so worried about seeming non-confident during rounds that I'd totally stumble over my words, thus seeming non-confident. I'll get it with practice though; I ain't gonna crib about a few Bs here and there.

Way to contradict yourself there by telling her to be herself i.e. not worry about everyone liking you and then go on a self-deprecating illustration about how working on seeming more confident is backfiring for you.

You either agree with me or disagree with me. Can't have it both ways.

 

[KnuxNole]

The main thing is, not everyone can be a social butterfly, and there are countless examples of residents/attendings who aren't. It's not mandatory to be super social to be in medicine in any specialty.

 

[MossPoh]

Not mandatory to an extent, but one does need to learn to play the game and become a pseudo-extrovert at times. When you are done with trying to network and impress, you are free to do what you wish.

 

[Rollo]

Not mandatory to an extent, but one does need to learn to play the game and become a pseudo-extrovert at times. When you are done with trying to network and impress, you are free to do what you wish.

Being done with networking is improbable for a practicing physician because you will always be dealing with people who are going to play some role in allowing your practice to sustain.

 

[VenusinFurs]

Way to contradict yourself there by telling her to be herself i.e. not worry about everyone liking you and then go on a self-deprecating illustration about how working on seeming more confident is backfiring for you.

You either agree with me or disagree with me. Can't have it both ways.

No, both are viable options. Projecting confidence and "acting the part" is not the same thing as being bubbly and getting everyone to like you. Stop being dumb.

 

[ArcGurren]

Being done with networking is improbable for a practicing physician because you will always be dealing with people who are going to play some role in allowing your practice to sustain.

Having confidence, professionalism, and poise when interacting with other physicians and patients is not the same thing as being an extrovert who flatters and charms everyone into liking them. Sure, it'll get you some people to help sustain your practice, but above all, you have to be a good doctor otherwise nobody is gonna care whether you can talk football or golf with someone - you're not gonna get referrals.

Sometimes, people can be excellent doctors but not necessarily be social butterflies. And my, you're a judgmental fellow.

 

[ArcGurren]

I like your post Arc. Makes me glad there are people who don't think being quiet = uninteresting.

Also, there are lots of people in medicine who are not too interesting to talk to...at all.

Yeah, I mean, when it comes to grades and to networking, the main thing is being able to put yourself out there and communicate with others. I certainly don't like to shoot the breeze with people whose personalities I don't get along with, but if you can be courteous, professional, and encouraging in a situation where it matters, that's what counts.

 

[RySerr21]

We get a separate grade for our shelf. It does not factor into our clinical grades.

that doesnt seem fair to students from other schools where that score does factor in to the final grade, haha. or do you get seperate evaluation (h/p/f) for the shelf exam that also shows up?

 

[human being]

This is an interesting topic. It is good to know all this information

 

[kafa11]

Way to contradict yourself there by telling her to be herself i.e. not worry about everyone liking you and then go on a self-deprecating illustration about how working on seeming more confident is backfiring for you.

You either agree with me or disagree with me. Can't have it both ways.

Rollo,

If you insist on being so rude I would appreciate if you make your association with PCOM less conspicuous.

I know who you are, and I don't like the things you say. You should try and remind yourself of how little experience you actually have--as a third year who is rotating through mostly very low stress institutions and not taking shelf exams... I know surgery is your thing, but you'll end up being a better person if you start acting like it.

 

[turkeyjerky]

Rollo,

If you insist on being such a jackass I would appreciate if you make your association with PCOM less conspicuous.

I know who you are, and I don't like the things you say. You should try and remind yourself of how little experience you actually have--as a third year who is rotating through mostly very low stress institutions and not taking shelf exams... I know surgery is your thing, but you'll end up being a better person if you start acting like it.

Wow.

 

[JackShephard MD]

Being quiet shows either you aren't interested or aren't interesting. Nobody wants to work with either of those two kinds of people.

Rollo,

If you insist on being such a jackass I would appreciate if you make your association with PCOM less conspicuous.

I know who you are, and I don't like the things you say. You should try and remind yourself of how little experience you actually have--as a third year who is rotating through mostly very low stress institutions and not taking shelf exams... I know surgery is your thing, but you'll end up being a better person if you start acting like it.

I think the first comment by Rollo was uncalled for. I think we should treat each other with respect, and saying that no one wants to work with quiet people lacks class.

Then again, best not to revert to name calling.

 

[KnuxNole]

Why do people have such hatred for quiet people? They aren't doing anything wrong

 

[ArcGurren]

Rollo,

If you insist on being such a rude I would appreciate if you make your association with PCOM less conspicuous.

I know who you are, and I don't like the things you say. You should try and remind yourself of how little experience you actually have--as a third year who is rotating through mostly very low stress institutions and not taking shelf exams... I know surgery is your thing, but you'll end up being a better person if you start acting like it.

Oh lord... as much as I didn't like what he was saying either, it's never fun to get called out by a fellow classmate.

No matter if surgery is "his thing" or not, though, being a jerk is never gonna help.

 

[VenusinFurs]

I think third year is just turning us all into a-holes who hate each other.

 

[Re3iRtH]

There's a phrase we use around here, and I think its time you all learned it.
ACT AS IF. Do you know what that means?

 

[VenusinFurs]

What I find confusing about this thread is the thought that the OP is "quiet". She's anything but on this board, and between the posts about hating going in to work or which student "massively stabbed" her in the back on a given week, I have difficulty believing that the problem is being quiet. Sometimes quiet is code for "you seem miserable" or "you seem passive aggressive". The OP has gotten one small piece of consistent negative feedback, and instead of buckling down and figuring out how to work with that advice (or make the decision that it isn't worth it and suck up the effect on her grade) she's instead talking about how ridiculous the feedback is and how she really deserves the top grade. (Despite also posting about how she gets her ass kicked in pimpwars, FTR.) That attitude says it all. And quiet med students grow up to be quiet attendings, remember, so it's not not being pals with everyone that is the problem. Just saying. Resume your regularly scheduled program.

Well, I think it's not an unusual reaction to being criticized. It's definitely not the most mature. Are many med students mature? No they are not. ESPECIALLY if they entered med school right out of college.

I don't get your point about quiet attendings.

 

[turkeyjerky]

Well, I think it's not an unusual reaction to being criticized. It's definitely not the most mature. Are many med students mature? No they are not. ESPECIALLY if they entered med school right out of college.

I don't get your point about quiet attendings.

I love that fallback argument. Do you really think that someone who's a brat at age 25 is gonna somehow magically mature by the time they're 35 or 45? Like you never see 50 year-old women w/ horrible coping skills who make your average teenager seem like Gandhi? These people are as mature as they're gonna get--spending a few years behind a desk or "traveling" isn't gonna suddenly make them reach self-actualization.

 

[unsung]

I agree that it can be hard to be open to feedback, but if you want to grow or achieve your goals (such as better grades) you have to be able to hear all types of criticism without letting emotion dictate its value or veracity.

Regarding quiet attendings: over half the posts in this thread explicitly or tacitly agreed with the assumption that to be quiet was indeed a significant weakness, but I don't think that is true, as long as being quiet doesn't mean you can't communicate or are socially anxious or awkward to point where it impedes patient care. Quiet med students, of which there are plenty, grow up to be attendings, and I suspect those attendings are fairly forgiving of their introverted brethren.

Being quiet in a group social situation does not equate to being quiet around patients.

I don't know why people automatically conflate the two. Conversely, I've seen some very social students who are great with charming residents/attendings... yet actually don't really talk well with patients & fail to gain good info.

They are completely different skills. "Schmoozing" vs "professional communication" (whether it be with a patient or with a colleague).

Unfortunately, or clinical rotation grades are based more on the former than the latter. Seriously. The guy that presents perfectly on rounds, formulates fine differentials, highly capable & works well with consults from other depts... is NOT going to get honors over the guy who is merely competent in those same things, yet can "schmooze" better with the residents, flatter the attendings, etc.

And I agree that quieter attendings seem to be more accepting of quieter/introverted students. It's just the wider problem of extroverts not understanding introverts in general. Insofar as certain specialties seem to attract quieter personalities... I think I will likely fare better evaluation-wise in those specialties. lol

This means NOT peds, for example. Oy.

 

[Lolscan]

On every single one of my evaluations EXCEPT for family medicine and psychiatry, I've gotten the comment on my clinical evals that I'm "too quiet." I got honors in family med and psych, but all of my other rotations have just been Excellent. I have to assume it's because I'm quiet because that's the ONLY negative on my evals. OB really ripped me a new one over being quiet stating, "Too quiet! She really needs to challenge herself to step out of her naturally quiet nature more." Another eval stated "At times, needed to be more assertive to share her knowledge, but overall her thought processes were logical and she communicated well."

Internal med: "extremely devoted her patients and their care. She developed strong relationships with her patients, and did tasks easily that would have been expected of a intern (such as calling PCP and relaying plan of care, and goals following discharge). She really took charge of managing her patients, even calling and discussing plans of care and inpatient stays with outpatient providers. However, she was a bit quiet." Recommend: Excellent

Why is quiet a bad thing and keeping me from honors? The "quiet" that I believe they are talking about is with them and not the patients. Just because I cannot shoot the breeze with the residents and keep them entertained for hours, I don't get honors. I don't understand it.

Let's look at what the psychiatrists had to say on my eval:

"She was extremely professional, and always respectful towards the staff and her patients. She went above and beyond when looking out for her patients best interests. In one instance the patient was on the wrong dose of medication and she brought it to the attention of both residents and attendings. Her interviewing skills are some of the best I've seen, and will continue to grow with practice and experience."

Family Med:
"A leader among her classmates --- studying and discussing topics with her peers. Very strong knowledge, but superior in practical thinking. She was able to use common sense and extrapolate wisely. She also showed the ability to decipher hidden agendas that patients had; in one instance, uncovering that a patient who presented with vague complaints actually had depression. The same patient told me that no doctor has ever made her feel as comfortable bringing up her emotions as the student did, and the patient actually requested to see the student at her follow-up in 2 weeks."

I am going to take a guess and say that you are probably asian? People (white people) equate being loud with confidence which in turn infers that they "know their stuff". It's a completely ******ed concept and unfortunately many asians get stuck either in racial stereotypes that they can't dig themselves out of. Unless you are 2 SDs above the normal for being outgoing. They will always see you as the "quiet yet polite and knowledgeable asian". Which gets you a high pass.

 

[unsung]

And BTW, extroverted behaviour and schmoozing is a learnable skill. I've known my best friend for almost 20 years, and in that time she's gone from very introverted and kind of awkward to being perceived as a leader and sought out by others for her people savvy. She attacked the problem the same way she does everything else - analytically and by taking classes (like the Dale Carnegie classes), and consistent practice. She's still the same person, still has the same fundamental personality, but she's changed the way she behaves in certain situations.

Examples? Just curious.

 

[VenusinFurs]

I love that fallback argument. Do you really think that someone who's a brat at age 25 is gonna somehow magically mature by the time they're 35 or 45? Like you never see 50 year-old women w/ horrible coping skills who make your average teenager seem like Gandhi? These people are as mature as they're gonna get--spending a few years behind a desk or "traveling" isn't gonna suddenly make them reach self-actualization.

It's not time that makes you change, it's wanting to change.

And I was just pointing out that most of us are dip****s.

 

[han14tra]

I completely agree that being quiet around attendings is not the same as being quiet around patients. Or that being a good schmoozer is helpful. That's just a fact of life, not only medicine. I disagree that grades are based more on the latter, at least at my school. There are enough checks and balances that you can't honor if you don't also perform well with "patients" in the OSCE rolleyes:) and know the material for the shelf and written assignments/oral exams.

And in any case, as I originally said, what I found baffling was that y'all were jumping in with supportive statements about the unfair discrimination against "quiet" med students, and advice about how to not be quiet, when I think this OPs barrier to honors is probably not just being too quiet.

I appreciate all of the supportive statements people have made. As I pointed out earlier the only negative comment I have gotten all year on evals is that I'm "too quiet." So, I have to assume it's because I'm quiet. They've also all said that my presentations were excellent and that I communicated well with patients, so I also have to assume the "quietness" they are speaking of is the lack of schmoozing with the residents/attendings. I'm assuming residents and attendings are honest on evals. If there is something else going on, they should tell me about it and include specific examples so that I can change it.

Honestly though, if it's my quiet personality rubbing people the wrong way, I'm not willing to change who I am. I attribute my rocking out in psychiatry and family med to my quiet personality (aka good listening skills) so if OB and surgery don't like it too bad. I'm going into family med anyways. I mainly posted this thread hoping for support and comments that would enlighten people that quiet is not a weakness. In fact, it can be an advantage.

Maybe it was a mistake to post this thread since it is upsetting you so much. I mean no harm. I am just your typical stressed out med student who needs a good healthy dose of support every now and then. And, I use StudentDoctor.net as a source of support from peers going through the same thing (although many times, it turns out to be a firing squad or a pis*ing match rather than the support I needed).

 

[MilkmanAl]

I'm assuming residents and attendings are honest on evals

That's probably not a safe assumption. At the very least, you can count on there being many lies by omission in your evals.

I also have to assume the "quietness" they are speaking of is the lack of schmoozing with the residents/attendings...if it's my quiet personality rubbing people the wrong way, I'm not willing to change who I am.

Everyone wants to work with people they enjoy being around. It's a bit disturbing to me that you're unwilling to change a character trait that apparently everyone dislikes.

I mainly posted this thread hoping for support and comments that would enlighten residents and attendings that quiet is not a weakness.

If it makes people not particularly want to be around you, it is most certainly a weakness and a significant one, at that.

 

[HalladayWeekend]

I do think that assuming that everything that is written on evals is accurate is a bit of a stretch. That is not to say that attendings and residents will outright write untruthful things, but often times they can get a bit confused when working with several students at once. Also, many of these attendings and residents don't care very much for filling these things out.

 

[human being]

I do think that assuming that everything that is written on evals is accurate is a bit of a stretch. That is not to say that attendings and residents will outright write untruthful things, but often times they can get a bit confused when working with several students at once. Also, many of these attendings and residents don't care very much for filling these things out.

That is a logical statement.

 

[MossPoh]

Examples? Just curious.

Pseudo-extrovert personality is learnable. Whether one can change their inherent personality is debatable. True extroverts think and act differently. They are rejuvenated by highly stimulating environments. An introvert can learn to do well in those environments, but at the end of the day it still feels better to retreat and recharge. Personally, I think the European/American emphasis on extroversion is a load of crap and there is nothing wrong with being an introvert. We have been programmed to view it in a negative light, but there is a ton of research out there showing that the extrovert ideal is not necessarily the best and that some balance is needed.

The book "Quiet" does a pretty good job at detailing some of it.