Why is class rank more important than GPA when applying for competitive residencies?

[Roy Williams]

For example, a 3.7 at one school may put you at a much higher rank than a 3.7 at another school. And since we aren't graded on a curve, why would class rank be more indicative of a competent applicant than GPA?

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[PhansterZ]

If you were a program director, would you interview someone with a 3.7 that is first in their class, or someone with a 3.8 that is last in their class?
Taking things to the extreme here, but you know the answer to this.

 

[Roy Williams]

If you were a program director, would you interview someone with a 3.7 that is first in their class, or someone with a 3.8 that is last in their class?
Taking things to the extreme here, but you know the answer to this.

Could past history of applicants of a certain school hold weight too? For example, would it be possible that a student that has a worse rank from a school would fair better in the application process than another if their program is known to put out applicants that excel in residency (compared to another newer school that is more unknown)?

 

[Str82th]

Could past history of applicants of a certain school hold weight too? For example, would it be possible that a student that has a worse rank from a school would fair better in the application process than another if their program is known to put out applicants that excel in residency (compared to another newer school that is more unknown)?

Not really, rank usually trumps all. Especially if one is in the top of a large class.

 

[armorshell]

It's surprisingly easy to correct for the level of "grade inflation/deflation" at schools that both rank and provide a GPA by creating an internal percentile ranking of the dental school gpa and rank then creating a ratio of these, and ranking the ratio by percentile. Note this assumes ranking is consistent, and doesn't account for a ton of factors like internal competitiveness, differences in characteristics of individual classes, doesn't encompass entire class datasets, and necessarily can't include schools which either do not rank or do not provide GPAs.

Interesting factoids from this data set:
The top schools for GPA inflation (in no particular order): Rutgers, VCU, Minnesota, Pittsburgh
The top schools for GPA deflation (again in no particular order): Meharry, Detroit Mercy, Pacific, Creighton

One could also interpret these data to mean certain schools are inherently more competitive, or that a higher GPA is required to attain a higher rank at certain schools. However, students had higher a slightly higher undergraduate GPA in the more deflationary schools by around 0.1 GPA points, so one would expect an equal or higher level of internal competition here. There was also no correlation between the NBME score and the level of grade inflation (R = .03), which depending on your orientation towards this question would either mean grade inflation exists at some dental schools, or the NBME test is a poor measure of dental school academic prowess.

 

[Roy Williams]

It's surprisingly easy to correct for the level of "grade inflation/deflation" at schools that both rank and provide a GPA by creating an internal percentile ranking of the dental school gpa and rank then creating a ratio of these, and ranking the ratio by percentile. Note this assumes ranking is consistent, and doesn't account for a ton of factors like internal competitiveness, differences in characteristics of individual classes, doesn't encompass entire class datasets, and necessarily can't include schools which either do not rank or do not provide GPAs.

Interesting factoids from this data set:
The top schools for GPA inflation (in no particular order): Rutgers, VCU, Minnesota, Pittsburgh
The top schools for GPA deflation (again in no particular order): Meharry, Detroit Mercy, Pacific, Creighton

One could also interpret these data to mean certain schools are inherently more competitive, or that a higher GPA is required to attain a higher rank at certain schools. However, students had higher a slightly higher undergraduate GPA in the more deflationary schools by around 0.1 GPA points, so one would expect an equal or higher level of internal competition here. There was also no correlation between the NBME score and the level of grade inflation (R = .03), which depending on your orientation towards this question would either mean grade inflation exists at some dental schools, or the NBME test is a poor measure of dental school academic prowess.

This is interesting. Where is this data from (if you don't mind me asking)?

 

[armorshell]

This is interesting. Where is this data from (if you don't mind me asking)?

Compiled, deidentified data from application cycles at a single OMS program.

Doesn't sound particularly accurate

That's quite the interesting and well-reasoned point you make. I'm having trouble understanding some of your counter-arguments though. Care to elaborate?

 

[Roy Williams]

You're the one making claims without any source or proof for verification. Show us the source. It doesn't sound accurate. There are multiple schools out there that have high GPAs and I don't see them on the list. Regardless, you don't have to be a prick about it.
Also, compiled, de-identified data from an application cycle at a single OMS program is hardly good enough evidence to make your claim

I don't think @armorshell was trying to claim an absolute truth. It's not like we have any RCTs to go off of; he was just providing us with information from a study he's conducted. This would still be helpful even if it is not representative of other residency programs. Although I agree and would like to see more of the data.

 

[armorshell]

You're the one making claims without any source or proof for verification. Show us the source. It doesn't sound accurate. There are multiple schools out there that have high GPAs and I don't see them on the list. Regardless, you don't have to be a prick about it.
Also, compiled, de-identified data from an application cycle at a single OMS program is hardly good enough evidence to make your claim

I'm sorry these data upset you, but when you read my post, what claims did you think I was making? Are you sure you even understood the post contents? What amount or level of evidence would you require to change your mind? Do you have some superior evidence that overrides what I posted, or are you just dismissing it out of hand?

 

[armorshell]

This is completely incoherent and makes me wonder if you are able to understand your original post. Surely you can look back and see the claims you made, without any presented evidence, and see that it is bananas.

If those simple questions are incoherent to you, I can understand why you would have trouble understanding the data presented in the original post. If you ever figure out how to answer them, it might be possible to help you understand the original data. Let me know if you manage to sort those questions out! Until then feel free to just angrily fling pointless insults around.

 

[schmoob]

Class rank is more important because it demonstrates your performance relative to your peers within the same curriculum and same professors.
If you hypothetically take that entire class and put them in a different school, their GPA may change but their rank is much less likely to move IMO.

 

[armorshell]

What a joke. You are the one who came in with a condescending attitude from the start because you didn't like what I said. I made a simple comment that doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand. It's not my fault that upset you. Then you came back trying to talk to me with multiple questions? What? What are you doing?

Doesn't sound particularly accurate.

It's simple. You made a claim that certain programs have inflated and deflated GPAs and you didn't provide any source of information and you still haven't.

I described the source of my information, the process by which I transformed the data to address the question, and the result. I even provided a list of potential reasons the data were biased.

Again, it's hard to help someone understand if they're unwilling or unable to articulate what they didn't have enough information to understand. Again I'll ask, what additional data or evidence would you require to incorporate this into your understanding of dental education?

This information conflicts with what I know to be true.

Doesn't sound particularly accurate.

Do I doubt you have some? Absolutely not, but you can't make claims and not provide the data when people ask for it.

Again, what data are you looking for? The individual percentile rankings of dental school gpa compared to dental school rank? The ratios? The percentile ranking of the ratios and the top and bottom 25th percentile of those rankings, with a frequency table showing the top 4 schools most frequently appearing in those groups? Or do you need the entire data set to reconfirm the information yourself?

Lastly, you told us that your claims are based off of one OMS program. That is really laughable that that's your source. You can do better than this, but after seeing you, a grown adult, call the kettle black, I'm done here.

Call the kettle black? I'm not sure that means what you think it means. Accusing someone of flatly asserting claims without evidence (despite that not being the case) while simultaneously doing the same would be an excellent example of the meaning of the phrase though.

Lastly, you told us that your claims are based off of one OMS program. That is really laughable that that's your source. You can do better than this, but after seeing you, a grown adult, call the kettle black, I'm done here.

Utilizing the available data to answer the question at hand is the best anyone can do. Is it possible to answer this question with more precision? Absolutely, but this is not a particularly interesting question worth spending an inordinate amount of time on to respond to a forum post. Please, I welcome you to improve on this data. I eagerly await your response, and imagine it should be laughably easy.

 

[UCSFx2017]

What a joke. You are the one who came in with a condescending attitude from the start because you didn't like what I said. I made a simple comment that doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand. It's not my fault that upset you. Then you came back trying to talk to me with multiple questions? What? What are you doing?
It's simple. You made a claim that certain programs have inflated and deflated GPAs and you didn't provide any source of information and you still haven't. This information conflicts with what I know to be true. Do I doubt you have some? Absolutely not, but you can't make claims and not provide the data when people ask for it. Lastly, you told us that your claims are based off of one OMS program. That is really laughable that that's your source. You can do better than this, but after seeing you, a grown adult, call the kettle black, I'm done here.

Chill. He's an attending at a prestigious OMFS program that's very popular among applicants. He has access to years of OMFS applicants. I highly doubt you have access to a similar pool of data. He mentioned a school with grade inflation which is true. A person ranked 10 at that particular school had a 3.9 which is great but what's the significance between rank 8 and 10 when the difference is less than half a credit's worth of an A letter grade.

What's my source? I am literally in the data set.

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

A person ranked 10 at that particular school had a 3.9 which is great but what's the significance between rank 8 and 10 when the difference is less than half a credit's worth of an A letter grade.

Looks like #10 needed to gun harder. I’d personally question their commitment. A wise man once said, “If you’re not first, you’re last.”

Big Hoss

 

[armorshell]

What's my source? I am literally in the data set.

Is this what my undergrad research mentor meant when he said "Listen to the data, it will tell you everything you need to know?"

Chill. He's an attending at a prestigious OMFS program that's very popular among applicants.

I never mind when people challenge things, it actually typically makes me like them even more. When they're actually challenging the idea, that is.

However, the other 150 attendings and program directors that lurk on this site from various specialties and never post might have differing opinions.

 

[DeVo87]

For example, a 3.7 at one school may put you at a much higher rank than a 3.7 at another school. And since we aren't graded on a curve, why would class rank be more indicative of a competent applicant than GPA?

Exactly this. Some schools have inflated GPAs. No one in my class had a 4.0. We were not a bunch of slackers, our professors held us to a rigorous standard. I had a 3.4 and I was 34/106. When I was interviewing at a program, one of the staff said, anyone with a 3.4 at my dental school was last in the class. (THANKS A**HOLE) haha. Anyways, some schools inflate to make their students look more competitive for specialty training programs, where as some schools make the students earn every point.

Overall the point should be neither GPA or class rank is really telling you the quality of the candidate you are receiving alone. Hence, letters of rec, GRE/ADAT/etc, board scores where applicable. You really need several resources to round out a candidate and yet SCHOOLS still seem to find DUDS and pass up great candidates.

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

some schools inflate to make their students look more competitive for specialty training programs

This. Especially when you combine grade inflation with no class rank, like UPenn.

Big Hoss

 

[GimmeTheScalpel]

This. Especially when you combine grade inflation with no class rank, like UPenn.

Big Hoss

You have a lot of posts putting UPenn on blast. Doesn't really make sense. You do you.

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

You have a lot of posts putting UPenn on blast. Doesn't really make sense. You do you.

So, UPenn doesn't inflate their grades and have a misleading ranking system all in the name of boosting specialization? And they aren't crippling their students with debt? Look back, I have beef with all of these ridiculously priced schools. It's not good for the profession. I also won't knock UPenn's education. I've worked with dentists from schools across the country and if I needed dental work myself the providers I'd want graduated from UCLA, Indiana, and UPenn. Predents need to realize that there is nothing special about the dentistry taught at these "prestigious" schools and that they shouldn't pay more to become a dentist than they have to.

Big Hoss

 

[GimmeTheScalpel]

So, UPenn doesn't inflate their grades and have a misleading ranking system all in the name of boosting specialization? And they aren't crippling their students with debt? Look back, I have beef with all of these ridiculously priced schools. It's not good for the profession. I also won't knock UPenn's education. I've worked with dentists from schools across the country and if I needed dental work myself the providers I'd want graduated from UCLA, Indiana, and UPenn. Predents need to realize that there is nothing special about the dentistry taught at these "prestigious" schools and that they shouldn't pay more to become a dentist than they have to.

Big Hoss

Maybe consider the fact that someone who is interested in a particular aspect of dentistry might want to go to a school that will help them maximize their interest and learning potential in said field. Someone might want to learn didactic medicine during the dental training. Another student might want to be at a program with notable Endo faculty and high volume research. Someone may pick a program for their P/F grading system. It's about what exactly you want out of your education. Otherwise, I agree with you that picking an Ivy for the sake of name and name alone is a poor investment.

 

[EndoGunner]

(double posted)

 

[EndoGunner]

What a joke. You are the one who came in with a condescending attitude from the start because you didn't like what I said. I made a simple comment that doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand. It's not my fault that upset you. Then you came back trying to talk to me with multiple questions? What? What are you doing?
It's simple. You made a claim that certain programs have inflated and deflated GPAs and you didn't provide any source of information and you still haven't. This information conflicts with what I know to be true. Do I doubt you have some? Absolutely not, but you can't make claims and not provide the data when people ask for it. Lastly, you told us that your claims are based off of one OMS program. That is really laughable that that's your source. You can do better than this, but after seeing you, a grown adult, call the kettle black, I'm done here.

All he's saying is that GPA isn't a good indicator of academic prowess (especially relative to the NBME). His goal wasn't to trash on Rutgers/VCU/Minnesota/Pittsburgh. I know. I know. Armorshell didn't actually say that "the NBME is a good predictor of academic prowess"...but excluding the issue with P/F schools (& the 3 year school) it's the best we've got.

GPA was always designed to be a euphemism for rank. Unfortunately, we trust the "good" undergraduate universities to inflate their students' GPAs to compensate for their students' valedictorian-caliber talent (but at least we check to see if they're abusing that trust via the DAT).

Personally, I'd love to know how well rank indicates academic ability (or more specifically, how well does rank indicate NBME performance). Both Pacific and Meharry are in the deflated group. Is 50th percentile at Pacific equivalent to 50th percentile at Meharry? We know that their average pre-dental scores aren't equivalent on day 1.

In conclusion, thank god for the NBME. Next step: make all dental schools P/F.

 

[Dream Creek]

does school name also matters other than rank in class?

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

does school name also matters other than rank in class?

School name is probably the most important part of your application. If you’re not at an Ivy League dental school, I wouldn’t even bother applying. Program Directors are just going to throw your application in the trash, after they have maniacally laughed that you thought you had a chance, in spite of your stratospheric class rank, ADAT/CBSE dominance, and Nobel worthy research. But hey, you saved money going to a cheaper school. There’s always a silver lining.

Big Hoss

 

[Dream Creek]

School name is probably the most important part of your application. If you’re not at an Ivy League dental school, I wouldn’t even bother applying. Program Directors are just going to throw your application in the trash, after they have maniacally laughed that you thought you had a chance, in spite of your stratospheric class rank, ADAT/CBSE dominance, and Nobel worthy research. But hey, you saved money going to a cheaper school. There’s always a silver lining.

Big Hoss

okay... I am having a hard time figure out if this is sarcastic or for real... I am hoping its sarcasm...

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

okay... I am having a hard time figure out if this is sarcastic or for real... I am hoping its sarcasm...

Of course it’s sarcasm! Programs care so much more about what you have done to become the ideal applicant than the name of your school. You will find the opportunities you need at pretty much any dental school, so do yourself a financial favor and go to the cheapest dental school you can. Realize that many dental residencies charge tuition, some upwards of $200,000 to $300,000.

Big Hoss

 

[Dream Creek]

Of course it’s sarcasm! Programs care so much more about what you have done to become the ideal applicant than the name of your school. You will find the opportunities you need at pretty much any dental school, so do yourself a financial favor and go to the cheapest dental school you can. Realize that many dental residencies charge tuition, some upwards of $200,000 to $300,000.

Big Hoss

Thanks! Sorry I am so new about this! Just got in this year and are thinking about picking the school based on how it will help specializing in the future.

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

Thanks! Sorry I am so new about this! Just got in this year and are thinking about picking the school based on how it will help specializing in the future.

Congratulations on the acceptances. Let me be real with you for a moment. There is no guarantee that you will even want to specialize when the time comes or that you even will have what it takes. But, there is a guarantee that student loans suck. This is a universal truth, so go to the cheapest school.

Big Hoss

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

Totally agree with this post. That's why I am now attending Ivy league school.

And I’m sure you’ll make a great prosthodontist!

Big Hoss

 

[armorshell]

All he's saying is that GPA isn't a good indicator of academic prowess... His goal wasn't to trash on Rutgers/VCU/Minnesota/Pittsburgh.

Surprisingly (even to me), I didn't really have any agenda going into this. I just saw the question, had some (admittedly non-comprehensive and biased, see above). Combined with the knowledge of how to mash on said data, I figured I could demonstrate something that basically everyone already knew about (Some schools have a different approach to grading than others). This was already a well known "problem" in dental academia, which is why many schools provide ranks, a some schools don't. Factually, the numerous discussion on ranked vs. P/F schools on this board sort of obviate the need to discuss different grading systems between schools, as there isn't anyone out there who considers dental school GPA seriously in terms of residency application. Except maybe your mom. Gotta get those facebook like for your precious peanut's 4.0 in dentist college.

...(especially relative to the NBME)...I know. I know. Armorshell didn't actually say that "the NBME is a good predictor of academic prowess"...but excluding the issue with P/F schools (& the 3 year school) it's the best we've got.

I definitely didn't actually say that, because I (and pretty much I alone as far as I can tell) firmly believe the NBME is probably a worse predictor of OMS residency success than GPA, or any of the other metrics we have available to look at. This is due to this particular tests inherent problems with face and criterion validity, its poor reliability, and its misuse for comparing students given its criterion-referenced construction. Also, the simple fact that the test was constructed to validate a certain level of understanding in a standardized curriculum only a tiny subset of the test takers in the dental student group are exposed to.

Don't misconstrue this as advice to ignore the importance of a good NBME score to your personal application, since just about every program director leans heavily on these scores...for now.

GPA was always designed to be a euphemism for rank. Unfortunately, we trust the "good" undergraduate universities to inflate their students' GPAs to compensate for their students' valedictorian-caliber talent (but at least we check to see if they're abusing that trust via the DAT).

The problem with GPA, rank, NBME, DAT and all of these measures is they rarely measure what the interpreter is actually looking for. PDs are all looking for different things in residents. Some are looking for intrinsic motivation, some for stability, some for academic or scholarly ability, some for clinical prowess, and so on and so forth. Rarely is a PD looking for "your ability to rail adderall, pump and dump a couple of study guides worth of biomedical data mostly unrelated to the field, then expertly take a multiple choice test." The problem is there are just too many factors involved to reliably test for the actual traits you're looking for, and there it's extraordinarily rare to find any evidence, in any field, of such a test. This even includes interviews.

Personally, I'd love to know how well rank indicates academic ability (or more specifically, how well does rank indicate NBME performance). Both Pacific and Meharry are in the deflated group. Is 50th percentile at Pacific equivalent to 50th percentile at Meharry? We know that their average pre-dental scores aren't equivalent on day 1.

In conclusion, thank god for the NBME. Next step: make all dental schools P/F.

From the same dataset (excluding all unranked schools for obvious purposes), the R=0.25 for rank to NBME. That value lies on the border between a weak and mild correlation, indicating only that the majority of variation in NBME scores is not explained by rank (or vice versa). Using the NBME as a "correction factor" for rank, would require you to assume that all the problems with the test which I mentioned above do not exist.

In effect:

 

[Disintegration93]

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