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JDAD

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Why do graduate school applicants get their application/travel/interview/school/living paid for?

Is really that large of a shortage?

I personally know a kid who was recetly accepted at UNC and WashU for their medical biochem programs. This kid has a 3.1GPA and a 960 GRE score. He is going to UNC and their package is crazy.

$1000 moving expenses
$24K a year stipend
Unlimited travel expenses for conferences.

All of that and he doesn't have to pay tuition/fees/health insurance.

It makes me sad to think that I paid for application, paid to go to the interviews, will pay to go to school and will pay to live.

If we all decided to fight the system and decide not to matriculate anywhere, do you think they would start to treat us as well as their treat grad students. It would be interesting to see what would happen if not a single person applied next year.
 

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But you'll be making more money than him plus you don't have to be stuck in a lab the rest of your life.

JDAD said:
Why do graduate school applicants get their application/travel/interview/school/living paid for?

Is really that large of a shortage?

I personally know a kid who was recetly accepted at UNC and WashU for their medical biochem programs. This kid has a 3.1GPA and a 960 GRE score. He is going to UNC and their package is crazy.

$1000 moving expenses
$24K a year stipend
Unlimited travel expenses for conferences.

All of that and he doesn't have to pay tuition/fees/health insurance.

It makes me sad to think that I paid for application, paid to go to the interviews, will pay to go to school and will pay to live.

If we all decided to fight the system and decide not to matriculate anywhere, do you think they would start to treat us as well as their treat grad students. It would be interesting to see what would happen if not a single person applied next year.
 

GuyLaroche

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JDAD said:
Why do graduate school applicants get their application/travel/interview/school/living paid for?

JDAD said:
Is really that large of a shortage?
Graduate school is considered a cut above medical school simply because it requires original thinking and a sort of intellectual maturity which is absent in medical school. Actually, if you see the ranking of degrees, medical school is considered an extension of undergrad. So is law school actually (there is a higher degree than JD in law which is the equivalent of a PhD). Folks, medical school may be tough due to the volume of information but it is no where near the intellectual rigor of graduate school.

JDAD said:
I personally know a kid who was recetly accepted at UNC and WashU for their medical biochem programs. This kid has a 3.1GPA and a 960 GRE score. He is going to UNC and their package is crazy.
Well, it's safe to assume the kid was lucky. A score of 960 on the GRE is terrible, and will certainly not make it into my school. UNC has a great medical school, but is certainly weak in many other departments. Have you any idea what deparment your friend is in? Trust me, Harvard has an engineering program that is easy to get into because Harvard isn't known for engineering. I don't believe it has a full department in the field. I am not sure where WashU falls on the rankings for biomedical research. I am not sure it is ranked as highly as it is for medical schools. Besides, maybe the kid met his advisor at some conference. Maybe he produced excellent work that you are not aware of. So, you're taking bits of information without looking at the whole picture.

JDAD said:
$1000 moving expenses
I find this terribly hard to believe. Most schools will not provide moving expenses.

JDAD said:
$24K a year stipend
Again, I find this hard to believe. This amount must include registration fees. Typically, it is considered income and you pay taxes on it (which reduces the amount by 20%)- unless it is an NSF, NIH or some such fellowship, in which case, it really is a pleasant deal but otherwise 24k a year is about $3000 too high. This difference must be some sort of fee that the student has to pay.

JDAD said:
Unlimited travel expenses for conferences.
Absolutely false. Unless you have passed your preliminary exams (and one or two years away from actually obtaining the doctorate), you are typically not eligible for travel funds from your department. Again, your assertion could be true if you are a super star, and you submit abstracts to several prestigious conferences, in which case your advisor would gladly fork over the travel money. I believe NSF and Hughes will provide limited travel funds. It certainly isn't unlimited.

JDAD said:
All of that and he doesn't have to pay tuition/fees/health insurance.
This statement is also false regarding health insurance. While NSF and other prestigious fellowships will pay some but not all of your insurance, the average departmental fellowship will pay $0.00 of the health insurance costs. Even MSTP will only pay about $1100 leaving you with about $200-$300 to pay out of pocket. Health insurance payment provisions in these fellowships are not keeping up with the rising cost of health insurance. Still, the MSTPs, the NSFs, NIH, Hughes etc. are in a better position than most since they at least get some of their health insurance paid.


JDAD said:
It makes me sad to think that I paid for application, paid to go to the interviews, will pay to go to school and will pay to live.
You'll get a degree, work in a hospital, save lives, make a decent income. Your friend will publish papers, and be immortalized forever in the world of science. Either way, unless you both work really hard and produce something of note, you're likely to be unremarkable, average people in unremarkable professions. And btw, your friend could astronomically increase his earning potential higher than you can by securing lucrative grants that will subsidize his salary. He may even obtain profitable patents that may be shared between him and his institution. Don't ever believe that all PhDs are doomed. It's not true.

JDAD said:
If we all decided to fight the system and decide not to matriculate anywhere, do you think they would start to treat us as well as their treat grad students. It would be interesting to see what would happen if not a single person applied next year.
Not ever going to happen. Don't waste your time pondering these unlikelihoods because they're simply not going to happen. More than that, you shouldn't compare graduate students to medical students. They are similar in many respects but entirely different in most.
 

carn311

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JDAD said:
Why do graduate school applicants get their application/travel/interview/school/living paid for?

Is really that large of a shortage?

I personally know a kid who was recetly accepted at UNC and WashU for their medical biochem programs. This kid has a 3.1GPA and a 960 GRE score. He is going to UNC and their package is crazy.

$1000 moving expenses
$24K a year stipend
Unlimited travel expenses for conferences.

All of that and he doesn't have to pay tuition/fees/health insurance.

It makes me sad to think that I paid for application, paid to go to the interviews, will pay to go to school and will pay to live.

If we all decided to fight the system and decide not to matriculate anywhere, do you think they would start to treat us as well as their treat grad students. It would be interesting to see what would happen if not a single person applied next year.


There just can be no compairison. Can you imagine going to medical school, doing intensive research, and having somekind of TA or RA position?

Phd students get such perks because they do actual "work" in the sense that the university can benefit financially.
 

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GuyLaroche said:
JDAD said:
Why do graduate school applicants get their application/travel/interview/school/living paid for?


Graduate school is considered a cut above medical school simply because it requires original thinking and a sort of intellectual maturity which is absent in medical school. Actually, if you see the ranking of degrees, medical school is considered an extension of undergrad. So is law school actually (there is a higher degree than JD in law which is the equivalent of a PhD). Folks, medical school may be tough due to the volume of information but it is no where near the intellectual rigor of graduate school.



Well, it's safe to assume the kid was lucky. A score of 960 on the GRE is terrible, and will certainly not make it into my school. UNC has a great medical school, but is certainly weak in many other departments. Have you any idea what deparment your friend is in? Trust me, Harvard has an engineering program that is easy to get into because Harvard isn't known for engineering. I don't believe it has a full department in the field. I am not sure where WashU falls on the rankings for biomedical research. I am not sure it is ranked as highly as it is for medical schools. Besides, maybe the kid met his advisor at some conference. Maybe he produced excellent work that you are not aware of. So, you're taking bits of information without looking at the whole picture.


I find this terribly hard to believe. Most schools will not provide moving expenses.


Again, I find this hard to believe. This amount must include registration fees. Typically, it is considered income and you pay taxes on it (which reduces the amount by 20%)- unless it is an NSF, NIH or some such fellowship, in which case, it really is a pleasant deal but otherwise 24k a year is about $3000 too high. This difference must be some sort of fee that the student has to pay.


Absolutely false. Unless you have passed your preliminary exams (and one or two years away from actually obtaining the doctorate), you are typically not eligible for travel funds from your department. Again, your assertion could be true if you are a super star, and you submit abstracts to several prestigious conferences, in which case your advisor would gladly fork over the travel money. I believe NSF and Hughes will provide limited travel funds. It certainly isn't unlimited.



This statement is also false regarding health insurance. While NSF and other prestigious fellowships will pay some but not all of your insurance, the average departmental fellowship will pay $0.00 of the health insurance costs. Even MSTP will only pay about $1100 leaving you with about $200-$300 to pay out of pocket. Health insurance payment provisions in these fellowships are not keeping up with the rising cost of health insurance. Still, the MSTPs, the NSFs, NIH, Hughes etc. are in a better position than most since they at least get some of their health insurance paid.




You'll get a degree, work in a hospital, save lives, make a decent income. Your friend will publish papers, and be immortalized forever in the world of science. Either way, unless you both work really hard and produce something of note, you're likely to be unremarkable, average people in unremarkable professions. And btw, your friend could astronomically increase his earning potential higher than you can by securing lucrative grants that will subsidize his salary. He may even obtain profitable patents that may be shared between him and his institution. Don't ever believe that all PhDs are doomed. It's not true.



Not ever going to happen. Don't waste your time pondering these unlikelihoods because they're simply not going to happen. More than that, you shouldn't compare graduate students to medical students. They are similar in many respects but entirely different in most.
I will say what everyone else is thinking....WOW. Note to self: never say anything that may offend GuyLaroche because if you do, he will tear you apart. Guy you are awesome for sticking up for grad students...if only there were more people in the MD forums with your understanding and respect for the innovative work that grad students do.
 

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Med school is considered a professional training program where the student gets a skill set and goes out and uses it. Not as much is contributed to the research agenda of the school/dept of training. Grad programs that are science based get a lot of funding from grants and doctoral students are usually expected to work as part of their training. Many grants submitted include funding for students in their budget as a way for PIs to get their work completed. Alternatively, the NIH sets up some training grants in areas that they determine to be areas of priority and thus use funds to increase the field of training in that area. NIH training grants also expect you to work for the training grant director.

Plenty o' doctoral students get their health insurance covered and I don't think 24K is out of the question- although 12-16K seems more usual from my experience. Again, travel expenses for conferences are written into grants, so if s/he gets an abstract accepted, it is likely that they will get the funding to travel. Some depts keep a student fund specifically for conference travel expenses when a student is selcted to present.

Again, from my experience, many doctoral programs care less about how competitive you are relative to others as much as whether you are a good fit with what a PI is currently working on. My sister, for example, had a miserable GPA but some amazing and unique experiences in Orgo and got acceptances and great financial deals at grad schools up and down the eastern seaboard.
 
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JDAD

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cluelesspremed said:
GuyLaroche said:
I will say what everyone else is thinking....WOW. Note to self: never say anything that may offend GuyLaroche because if you do, he will tear you apart. Guy you are awesome for sticking up for grad students...if only there were more people in the MD forums with your understanding and respect for the innovative work that grad students do.

I'm not worried about LaDouche.

I have one question for him though:

What could I possible get out of lying on this board about the offer given to a friend of mine?

I will confidently say that Guy is 100% incorrect in almost everything he said in his above post. He brought up some good points, but everything that I said in my initial post is true, I read the offer of admission myself. He is a hard working kid, but he isn't a brain child. I am proud of him and think he deserves everything he got, but that doesn't mean I not a little jealous :cool:
 

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Grad school is paid for because the school actively pimps them. From the very start, grad students are contributing to the schools reputation on the academic level by publishing articles conduting experiments, working as TAs etc. In addition, although the pay can be decent for PhDs it is usually not the greatest. There needs to be some incentive to go and spend your time in a lab for so many years.

Medical schools act the way they do beacuse they can. There is never a shortage of applicants who are qualified ever so of course they will actively try to get as much money as possible. In addition in medical school you are basically in there and then out 4 years later while contributing nothing to the schools academic name. Med students are there to learn and then go use their knowledge. Grad students have to make novel ideas and experiments which actively contribute to the school in numerous ways.

In short, get over it. I'm willing to bet the average physician makes more then the average PhD just because of the nature of the professions. Just based on that it will always be tougher to get people to grad school.
 

fun8stuff

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GuyLaroche said:
JDAD said:
Why do graduate school applicants get their application/travel/interview/school/living paid for?


Graduate school is considered a cut above medical school simply because it requires original thinking and a sort of intellectual maturity which is absent in medical school. Actually, if you see the ranking of degrees, medical school is considered an extension of undergrad. So is law school actually (there is a higher degree than JD in law which is the equivalent of a PhD). Folks, medical school may be tough due to the volume of information but it is no where near the intellectual rigor of graduate school.



Well, it's safe to assume the kid was lucky. A score of 960 on the GRE is terrible, and will certainly not make it into my school. UNC has a great medical school, but is certainly weak in many other departments. Have you any idea what deparment your friend is in? Trust me, Harvard has an engineering program that is easy to get into because Harvard isn't known for engineering. I don't believe it has a full department in the field. I am not sure where WashU falls on the rankings for biomedical research. I am not sure it is ranked as highly as it is for medical schools. Besides, maybe the kid met his advisor at some conference. Maybe he produced excellent work that you are not aware of. So, you're taking bits of information without looking at the whole picture.


I find this terribly hard to believe. Most schools will not provide moving expenses.


Again, I find this hard to believe. This amount must include registration fees. Typically, it is considered income and you pay taxes on it (which reduces the amount by 20%)- unless it is an NSF, NIH or some such fellowship, in which case, it really is a pleasant deal but otherwise 24k a year is about $3000 too high. This difference must be some sort of fee that the student has to pay.


Absolutely false. Unless you have passed your preliminary exams (and one or two years away from actually obtaining the doctorate), you are typically not eligible for travel funds from your department. Again, your assertion could be true if you are a super star, and you submit abstracts to several prestigious conferences, in which case your advisor would gladly fork over the travel money. I believe NSF and Hughes will provide limited travel funds. It certainly isn't unlimited.



This statement is also false regarding health insurance. While NSF and other prestigious fellowships will pay some but not all of your insurance, the average departmental fellowship will pay $0.00 of the health insurance costs. Even MSTP will only pay about $1100 leaving you with about $200-$300 to pay out of pocket. Health insurance payment provisions in these fellowships are not keeping up with the rising cost of health insurance. Still, the MSTPs, the NSFs, NIH, Hughes etc. are in a better position than most since they at least get some of their health insurance paid.




You'll get a degree, work in a hospital, save lives, make a decent income. Your friend will publish papers, and be immortalized forever in the world of science. Either way, unless you both work really hard and produce something of note, you're likely to be unremarkable, average people in unremarkable professions. And btw, your friend could astronomically increase his earning potential higher than you can by securing lucrative grants that will subsidize his salary. He may even obtain profitable patents that may be shared between him and his institution. Don't ever believe that all PhDs are doomed. It's not true.



Not ever going to happen. Don't waste your time pondering these unlikelihoods because they're simply not going to happen. More than that, you shouldn't compare graduate students to medical students. They are similar in many respects but entirely different in most.
so i take it you have something against med schools? :laugh:
 

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Why are grad students apparently given more? It is becasue grad students are indentured servants... who me bitter? I was in my third year of my PhD and realized that my life sucked. I worked 60 to 80+ hours a week. Sometimes 40 hours straight with a couple of hours sleep in the basement of my building only to be told the next day that "I do not spend enough time in the lab." All of that for 15 K a year. PhD post-docs get paid about $5000 less a year on NIH scales than your typical MD/DO intern at the same school. MD's who may have next to no actual training in science, research, and the scientific method are also favored over PhDs for grants and they get paid more on a grant than a PhD... even though the PhD spent as many or more years in grad school and post-docs training than the average MD. My wife is a PhD with on a post-doc and I am going to start internship this July, but I am going to get paid more than her. She is not very impressed :p .

So why are grad students flown out and wined and dined? Because the programs have to make it look attractive to prospective students that's why. It is easier to get into grad school than medical school, but it is a lot harder to finish. There is no garuntee of a degree, no matter how hard you work, or how good you are. If your PI decides that he/she doesn't like you... too bad you are out on your ear. I doubt that even the most malignant medicine program could remotely compare to even a moderately dysfunctional graduate program. I knew two people who had psychotic breaks in graduate school. One was hospitalized when he went home to visit family in England. He had major depression with psychotic features and another friend of mine was arrested when he listened to "the voices on the other side of the wall" and drove around town firing his .22LR pistol in the air from the window of his pick-up truck. The diagnosis was schizphrenia but personally I think BAD with pscychotic features. And these weren't even the dysfuntional people in the department.... ;)

Did I mention that I like med school much more than I ever liked grad school? Medical school has been supportive and constructive, grad school they really didn't care if their students lived, died, were healthy, or unhealthy. The only measure was how productive a person was perceived to be. For all of the hell though, I was taught how to think and reason.

In any case just my humble opinion. :cool:
 

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fun8stuff said:
GuyLaroche said:
so i take it you have something against med schools? :laugh:
No, I actually don't. Otherwise, why would I be trying to attend one? I am just irritated with the prevalent attitude of premeds that medical school is somehow superior to other vocations when it really isn't rocket science. It's a classroom, a professor, textbooks and information being spoon-fed to you. Graduate school is this vast wilderness of discrete, and really complicated information. You have to find it yourself. That seems far more complex than sitting in a class room and studying a textbook.
 

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JDAD said:
cluelesspremed said:
... but that doesn't mean I not a little jealous :cool:

And so we get to the root of all the poison. Jealousy isn't the best of emotions. You should know that. Besides, why are you reading another person's acceptance letter. I think you're revealing a lot about the pathology of your person. Yet you seem content to insult me when there is so much within you that needs sorting out.
 

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GuyLaroche said:
Again, I find this hard to believe. This amount must include registration fees. Typically, it is considered income and you pay taxes on it (which reduces the amount by 20%)- unless it is an NSF, NIH or some such fellowship, in which case, it really is a pleasant deal but otherwise 24k a year is about $3000 too high. This difference must be some sort of fee that the student has to pay.


This statement is also false regarding health insurance. While NSF and other prestigious fellowships will pay some but not all of your insurance, the average departmental fellowship will pay $0.00 of the health insurance costs. Even MSTP will only pay about $1100 leaving you with about $200-$300 to pay out of pocket. Health insurance payment provisions in these fellowships are not keeping up with the rising cost of health insurance. Still, the MSTPs, the NSFs, NIH, Hughes etc. are in a better position than most since they at least get some of their health insurance paid.
I get about $24,000 before taxes. On top of that insurance and all fees are paid for as well. It is by far not the top program.
 

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dr.z said:
I get about $24,000 before taxes. On top of that insurance and all fees are paid for as well. It is by far not the top program.
What region of the country are you in? What program is it? This sounds like a super cool deal. Is this some sort of fellowship or a regular department research assistant fellowship?
 

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Usually only the first year is "paid" for. The years to come later are paid directly by your professor, whoever may that person may be. He or she pays you out of the grants that her/his lab has received. But guess what if you don't produce quality work or can't generate grants for the lab? You have to TA extra quarter/semesters because you most likely won't be paid. First year is paid by the Department that you're admitted too (although you can change around once you get to the school).

Its absolutely true that grad school is HARD! You have to have creative, and innovative way of thinking. Yes, they give you the tools, the knowledge..(most of which you will read by yourself in numerous papers), but no one would give you "ideas" what to do..that's your job, on the other hand, there's always people around to get help from, primarily your mentor. The other part that makes grad school so hard is the way they're examed, you thought panel interviews were hard? What a about being questioned for couple hours by a panel of 6-10 experts on the subject that you barely studied for 2 years?
I guess there's a reason that the PhDs call themselves the "real" docs..they really have earned it. They can't get their PhD's by just passing their oral exams, they have to publish original and valid papers. But its not for everyone, same way that being a physician is not for everyone. I tried research, I did well, but its not for me. I feel that being in the lab all day disconnects from outside world, but that's just me.
 

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While I agree with several of the points made by both JDAD and GuyLaRoche, their impassioned arguments really don't make a difference. What it boils down to is simple economics:

Why is graduate school free? Because graduate students generate revenue, and medical students do not.

Why is it easier to get into? Fewer people want to do it, and there are more graduate programs than medical schools.

Supply and demand, folks, supply and demand.
 

getunconcsious

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And one more point--Guy, you know I love you to death, but the thing about having to be a superstar 3rd year grad student to go to conferences isn't always true. I'm just an undergrad and hardly a superstar and they paid ALL my expenses. In fact, I actually MADE money cuz they gave me more per diem for meals than I actually bought (I'm a skinny guy). So in some cases the departments do just throw money around.
 

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Med students pay 50k a year because for the most part, once you finish med school and residency, you make enough money to pay off the loans in a short amount of time.

After finishing your PhD (which usually takes llonger than med school), you pretty much need to do a postdoc or two, which pay around 40k. And then if you're lucky, you become and assistant professor somewhere, which pays considerably under 100k (after 5+ years of post-college education and 3-5 years of postdoc). So no sane person would take on a 200k loan to go to grad school to be poor for the rest of his life and not be able to pay back loans. Or people would get their PhD and go into pharmaceutical and other industries to make enough money to repay loans, which would screw over the universitites.

The bottom line is that MDs will make more money than PhDs at any point in the game. If PhDs had the med-school size loans to look forward to, we'd have no PhDs, because people are not interested in resigning themselves to a life of debt complete poverty for the sake of science.

Same thing for MD/PhD programs. Why is the MD part free? Because the itnerest alone on the loans for MD part over 8+ years of the program would rpetty much ensure that any graduate would go into private practice or a lifestyle profession rather than into research.
 

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GuyLaroche said:
Graduate school is considered a cut above medical school simply because it requires original thinking and a sort of intellectual maturity which is absent in medical school. Actually, if you see the ranking of degrees, medical school is considered an extension of undergrad. So is law school actually (there is a higher degree than JD in law which is the equivalent of a PhD). Folks, medical school may be tough due to the volume of information but it is no where near the intellectual rigor of graduate school.



Grad school is free because the students are serving as TAs and doing research that will provide increased amounts of grant money and prestige to the school, not to mention things like patents on things invented while at that school. Stanford is making many millions off the guys at Google, who invented the algorithm while there.

Meanwhile, med school doesn't make you work for them, and not that many people do research.
 

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GuyLaroche said:
JDAD said:
Why do graduate school applicants get their application/travel/interview/school/living paid for?

I find this terribly hard to believe. Most schools will not provide moving expenses.

Again, I find this hard to believe. This amount must include registration fees. Typically, it is considered income and you pay taxes on it (which reduces the amount by 20%)- unless it is an NSF, NIH or some such fellowship, in which case, it really is a pleasant deal but otherwise 24k a year is about $3000 too high. This difference must be some sort of fee that the student has to pay.

This statement is also false regarding health insurance. While NSF and other prestigious fellowships will pay some but not all of your insurance, the average departmental fellowship will pay $0.00 of the health insurance costs. Even MSTP will only pay about $1100 leaving you with about $200-$300 to pay out of pocket. Health insurance payment provisions in these fellowships are not keeping up with the rising cost of health insurance. Still, the MSTPs, the NSFs, NIH, Hughes etc. are in a better position than most since they at least get some of their health insurance paid.
Hey GuyLaroche,
I agree with lots of what you say, but...
I'm a gradute student and our department has been helping with moving expenses for a couple years (~ $1000). It's becoming more common. I have also heard that some schools offer big signing bonuses. Also, our health insurance is covered by the department.

You know what they say about surgeons, "Often wrong, never in doubt." Maybe surgery is gonna be your thing...
 

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I remember going to the match day celebrations in my fourth year of graduate school. Folks who had started med school the same time I started my PhD were opening their letters and finding out where they were going to go. It struck me that they were all off to learn their trades, make a paycheck and get on with their lives. Meanwhile I had a rack of RT-PCR's that just would not work, and no end in sight.

Being an MD is like being part of an exclusive club, one which offers more interest, autonomy, income and job security than virtually any other profession. It's a seller's market. With a PhD you're hoping for the golden handshake, but often end up with the golden shower. I am grateful that I bit the bullet and applied to med school. It's hard, but graduate school is positively soul crushing.
 

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Folks the answer is simple, PhD students work as TAs for the school. If they took on 100-200K in debt no one would go cause PhD's dont make a lot of money unless they go and work for industry.

MDs on the other hand do not teach undergrads and when they graduate often make 200k+. I dont think the difference in packages really has much to do with end pay but more with other responsibilities like teaching undergrads and being some tenured guys slave for a long time.

I have lots of respect for the PhDs and I think they get screwed pretty hard when it comes to salary. That is perhaps one of the reasons why many of them are Foreign Grads. I am sure if they paid PhDs 500K you would see a fair number of people decide to earn PhDs over their MDs. As a current MD student I can say that I feel bad for the patients of some of my classmates and some of the residents I have worked with. They would have been better off in some other field.
 

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JDAD said:
Why do graduate school applicants get their application/travel/interview/school/living paid for?

Is really that large of a shortage?

I personally know a kid who was recetly accepted at UNC and WashU for their medical biochem programs. This kid has a 3.1GPA and a 960 GRE score. He is going to UNC and their package is crazy.

$1000 moving expenses
$24K a year stipend
Unlimited travel expenses for conferences.

All of that and he doesn't have to pay tuition/fees/health insurance.

It makes me sad to think that I paid for application, paid to go to the interviews, will pay to go to school and will pay to live.

If we all decided to fight the system and decide not to matriculate anywhere, do you think they would start to treat us as well as their treat grad students. It would be interesting to see what would happen if not a single person applied next year.
Yean, I noticed the same thing once my room mate's acceptances started rolling in. I think she has about a 3.4 gpa and aprox. 900-1000 GRE score and she has a pretty nice package offer from our undergrad institution. Plus, she didn't even have to interview. And if you knew her personally......let's just say i have come home and her window's open and the heater is on....etc., etc.
 

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getunconcsious said:
While I agree with several of the points made by both JDAD and GuyLaRoche, their impassioned arguments really don't make a difference. What it boils down to is simple economics:

Why is graduate school free? Because graduate students generate revenue, and medical students do not.

Why is it easier to get into? Fewer people want to do it, and there are more graduate programs than medical schools.

Supply and demand, folks, supply and demand.
bingo
 

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EctopicFetus said:
Folks the answer is simple, PhD students work as TAs for the school. If they took on 100-200K in debt no one would go cause PhD's dont make a lot of money unless they go and work for industry.

MDs on the other hand do not teach undergrads and when they graduate often make 200k+. I dont think the difference in packages really has much to do with end pay but more with other responsibilities like teaching undergrads and being some tenured guys slave for a long time.

I have lots of respect for the PhDs and I think they get screwed pretty hard when it comes to salary. That is perhaps one of the reasons why many of them are Foreign Grads. I am sure if they paid PhDs 500K you would see a fair number of people decide to earn PhDs over their MDs. As a current MD student I can say that I feel bad for the patients of some of my classmates and some of the residents I have worked with. They would have been better off in some other field.
I wish to add a couple of things. But first, great handle....

I think a lot of what you said is fair. I want to give you the perspective of someone who comes from a different grad school perspective. You guys are really only considering science students. Most science students nationally have all of their stuff paid for, from interview expenses to all of their school and living stipends. Yes, they work for the department (whether they work for the school, well, I am skeptical).

I did an MA in linguistics. My BA is in English and linguistics. I applied to four schools. No interviews, so no expenses. Got into three of the four (the fourht relected me a year later...whatever that was about). I had funding my first year through a grad school fellowship. Here were the perks:

Paid in-state tuition
Out-of state tuition waiver
$10,000 stipend
Paid health insurance

Not so bad, I did work for the professors in the department on their projects. Whatever

My second year I was a TA in my department, which paid $4400 a class. They gave me one class. I ended up going to teach composition in the English department, because my department didn't want to give me one of their precious tuition waivers. So I went over there. Loved the job.

If you couldn't do that, you made $8800 a year, plus tuition and health insurance. No conference help in my department. A little in the grad school.

Really difficult hearing about grad students in the sciences making twice as much or more when I was teaching freshman english and introduction to linguistics.

So explain to me why grad students across the board don't make approximately equal incomes. And before you say that I must have gone to a podunk grad school, I didn't. UNC-CH.
 

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GuyLaroche said:
JDAD said:
Why do graduate school applicants get their application/travel/interview/school/living paid for?

Graduate school is considered a cut above medical school simply because it requires original thinking and a sort of intellectual maturity which is absent in medical school. Actually, if you see the ranking of degrees, medical school is considered an extension of undergrad. So is law school actually (there is a higher degree than JD in law which is the equivalent of a PhD). Folks, medical school may be tough due to the volume of information but it is no where near the intellectual rigor of graduate school.
I'd argue that it's a difference in kind, GL. Different types of thinking involved. And yes, I have a graduate degree in genetics.



GuyLaroche said:
Well, it's safe to assume the kid was lucky. A score of 960 on the GRE is terrible, and will certainly not make it into my school. UNC has a great medical school, but is certainly weak in many other departments. Have you any idea what deparment your friend is in? Trust me, Harvard has an engineering program that is easy to get into because Harvard isn't known for engineering. I don't believe it has a full department in the field. I am not sure where WashU falls on the rankings for biomedical research. I am not sure it is ranked as highly as it is for medical schools. Besides, maybe the kid met his advisor at some conference. Maybe he produced excellent work that you are not aware of. So, you're taking bits of information without looking at the whole picture.
Agreed: Terrible GRE.


GuyLaroche said:
I find this terribly hard to believe. Most schools will not provide moving expenses.
Agreed.


GuyLaroche said:
Again, I find this hard to believe. This amount must include registration fees. Typically, it is considered income and you pay taxes on it (which reduces the amount by 20%)- unless it is an NSF, NIH or some such fellowship, in which case, it really is a pleasant deal but otherwise 24k a year is about $3000 too high. This difference must be some sort of fee that the student has to pay.
Nope. You're wrong. Graduate stipends around the country are increasing. Esp. here in Texas, the stipend (usually paid by the PI after the student joins the lab) is going from 21K/year --> 24K/year. Some programs will also pay for parking and/or provide other ancillary benefits. It's entirely possible that the 24K is pure stipend or stipend + anicllary bennies.


GuyLaroche said:
Absolutely false. Unless you have passed your preliminary exams (and one or two years away from actually obtaining the doctorate), you are typically not eligible for travel funds from your department. Again, your assertion could be true if you are a super star, and you submit abstracts to several prestigious conferences, in which case your advisor would gladly fork over the travel money. I believe NSF and Hughes will provide limited travel funds. It certainly isn't unlimited.
Partially agree. Again, it is totally possible to travel for free if you end up in a well=funded lab. I was able to attend @ least 2 good conferences a year (CSH, Drosophila meetings, regional SDB, etc.) simply b/c my PI had crazy amounts of cash.

GuyLaroche said:
This statement is also false regarding health insurance. While NSF and other prestigious fellowships will pay some but not all of your insurance, the average departmental fellowship will pay $0.00 of the health insurance costs. Even MSTP will only pay about $1100 leaving you with about $200-$300 to pay out of pocket. Health insurance payment provisions in these fellowships are not keeping up with the rising cost of health insurance. Still, the MSTPs, the NSFs, NIH, Hughes etc. are in a better position than most since they at least get some of their health insurance paid.
Here you are ABSOLUTELY wrong. Most programs provide FREE health insurance. It's part of the unseen "tail" that the PI actually pays for the student. Of course, this is for the basic health insurance packet (usually an HMO). If you want a PPO or have a spouse/kid then you'll have to pony up the money for those programs.

GuyLaroche said:
You'll get a degree, work in a hospital, save lives, make a decent income. Your friend will publish papers, and be immortalized forever in the world of science. Either way, unless you both work really hard and produce something of note, you're likely to be unremarkable, average people in unremarkable professions. And btw, your friend could astronomically increase his earning potential higher than you can by securing lucrative grants that will subsidize his salary. He may even obtain profitable patents that may be shared between him and his institution. Don't ever believe that all PhDs are doomed. It's not true.
Agree.

GuyLaroche said:
Not ever going to happen. Don't waste your time pondering these unlikelihoods because they're simply not going to happen. More than that, you shouldn't compare graduate students to medical students. They are similar in many respects but entirely different in most.
Agree.

**Folks, the reason that grad students are paid and such is that they are needed to generate the data that gets the grant, half of which the university takes off the top. So if the PI didn't have a grad student to do the work (@ a cheaper price than a comparable technician !) then neither the PI nor the institution will benefit from the largesse of the government or industry. It's that simple.
 

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In the lab where I work, the grad student doesn't seem to be working on the grant at all. In fact, he seems to be getting paid to do his diss research only, and I am pretty sure that it isn't part of the original grant, so all the grant work is being done by techs.
 

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abraxas20 said:
In the lab where I work, the grad student doesn't seem to be working on the grant at all. In fact, he seems to be getting paid to do his diss research only, and I am pretty sure that it isn't part of the original grant, so all the grant work is being done by techs.

Perhaps his dissertation research will be used as preliminary data for a new grant.
 

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EvoDevo said:
I'd argue that it's a difference in kind.
My PI told me that one of the big differences between grad school and med school is that med students get screened beforehand - it's hard to get into med school but easy to get a job afterwards, but grad students get screened afterwards - it's not that hard to get into grad school, but getting that illusory tenure with a a six-figure salary and a large, well-financed research lab is going to be quite difficult and require a LOT of work.
 

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abraxas20 said:
I think a lot of what you said is fair. I want to give you the perspective of someone who comes from a different grad school perspective. You guys are really only considering science students. Most science students nationally have all of their stuff paid for, from interview expenses to all of their school and living stipends. Yes, they work for the department (whether they work for the school, well, I am skeptical).

Really difficult hearing about grad students in the sciences making twice as much or more when I was teaching freshman english and introduction to linguistics. So explain to me why grad students across the board don't make approximately equal incomes. And before you say that I must have gone to a podunk grad school, I didn't. UNC-CH.
Because the department you are in affects your perceived contribution to the university. It isn't all science students who get these perks. Math and physics students in particular suffer as much as English students do, and biology and chemistry students aren't much better off for the most part unless their mentors have a lot of grant money. The applied science students (biomedical, engineering, etc.) are the ones who can get grants and patents and generate research revenue for the university, and those are the best-compensated students. Arts and basic sciences students cost more than we contribute, so we teach undergrads, and even so we still earn less. You don't join the College of Arts and Sciences for the money, that's for sure. :smuggrin:
 

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QofQuimica said:
Because the department you are in affects your perceived contribution to the university. It isn't all science students who get these perks. Math and physics students in particular suffer as much as English students do, and biology and chemistry students aren't much better off for the most part unless their mentors have a lot of grant money. The applied science students (biomedical, engineering, etc.) are the ones who can get grants and patents and generate research revenue for the university, and those are the best-compensated students. Arts and basic sciences students cost more than we contribute, so we teach undergrads, and even so we still earn less. You don't join the College of Arts and Sciences for the money, that's for sure. :smuggrin:
Well said. I am in an applied science field, and still, reading a few of these posts have me wondering whether or not I am being screwed. I had assumed a universality with regards to my package that I never quite bothered to bargain. I'm not sure if I am in a position to do so now.
 

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In response to all of the above, as somebody in grad school:

I haven't heard of paying for moving expenses. Our stipend is $25k, and my friend in New York gets the same amount. I think 24-25 is fairly standard now, at least in competitive schools. Health insurance is completely covered. $25k is guaranteed covered the entire time we are grad students (well, until about 6 or 7 years, then they start wondering what's up :p). Whether we get to go to conferences is generally up to the PI, but I don't know many people who go until at least end of second year or later, when they're in their thesis labs.

As far as why we get paid? It's not because we TA. As a matter of fact, in my program we aren't even ALLOWED to TA until 3rd year or after, and it is never required. This is the exception rather than the rule, but in any case TAing is not a huge part of being in grad school. The reason we get paid, as mentioned in a post above, is because we are productive members of a lab the entire time we're in school. There is a lot of government money put into research, and rightly so. Some of it goes to train the newest researchers: students and post-docs. We design experiments and generate data and basically help the process of pushing science forward.

And grad school is intellectually more difficult than medical school, but we don't memorize as much information. It's been said before and I'll say it again: scientists in general look down on doctors as sort of "plumbers" who just learn facts and apply them. Grad school is all about critical thinking, designing experiments to test hypotheses, etc. My husband in medical school may study more than me, but I think that intellectually I have it harder. I personally don't have any value judgements about whether scientists are "better than" doctors. Obviously, since I want to be a doctor :p. But just realize that grad students actually do work for the money they get, and while it may be a good deal for them, they also have a lower top salary level to hit after they graduate than doctors do (for the most part!). In the end we all contribute in some way or another, and I think the monetary aspects even out and then go in favor of doctors over time.
 

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GuyLaroche said:
Well said. I am in an applied science field, and still, reading a few of these posts have me wondering whether or not I am being screwed. I had assumed a universality with regards to my package that I never quite bothered to bargain. I'm not sure if I am in a position to do so now.

Hey GuyLaroche

I'm an MSTP applicant, working as a researcher. I also oversee med students and engineering students in my lab. Most of my friends are graduate students.

Graduate students usually have full medical benefits and a stipend. Where I live these tend to be around $19,000 although they are taxed. I believe that MSTP now awards somewhere around $23,000. In expensive parts of the country (i.e. southern California) there is generally cheap student housing avaliable. Travel expenses to conferences are also usually paid. The school/PI have every resason to send students to conferences to increase their own exposure. I hope you are not being screwed. Unfortunately, from this thread and your previous posts about graduate work, I suspect that you are. I remember seeing something on another thread about researchers in your department being backstabbing, conniving, and hypercompetitive, so it does not seem unlikely that they would screw over their labor.

You are right about some things though. Graduate students work very, very hard. In the early years they juggle TAships, coursework, and projects. The sometimes lower grades/scores to get into school hide the fact that they must show potential for original thinking and perform once they get there. This cannot be measured by GPA. Several of my coworkers graduated from my program with substantially lower GPAs. In some aspects of the field I find them to be much brighter individuals. For the most part, these are the people whose work will result in the new treatments and devices we physicians will use to treat our patients in the future. Once they complete their graduate work, most post-doc for meager salaries. I know post-docs who make a mere $30K a year to live in one of the most expensive areas in the US. They struggle to pay off their undergraduate loans and most of them could not afford to research if they had to pay for school. This is why many researchers in past centuries were amatuers and aristocrats with funds to spare.

The path to and through medical school is difficult, but well defined. Study hard get, good grades....you have to struggle to get on the conveyor belt, someone is always there to counsel you on what to do next. Unfortunately this has a tendency to select for sheep-like individuals lacking in creativity. While the MCAT is supposed to test critical thinking, we all know that it is infinitely trainable. In my lab we have a rule "do not let medical students do ANYTHING" that is only part in jest. It originated from a med student doing something *incredibly* stupid that had the potential for a very bloody death. My coworkers tease me that when I enter school next year I will no longer be able to touch anything in the lab. The medical students are well-screened personality-wise, but tend to be "good test takers" who are less inclined to take risks or invent new ideas.

Some of them I would not wish to be my physician, but the great majority of them have been well-meaning and passionate about caring for patients. They will graduate from school heavily in debt but go on to make a substantial amount of money in a career where they make a small difference in someone's life on a daily basis. Graduate school and the subsequent careers are greuling with far less glory, prestige, and payoff. People will pay good money to go to medical schools because the long term payoff -i.e. a rewarding career as a physician - is worth the money. For many, graduate school would simply not be worth the effort.
 

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GuyLaroche said:
Well said. I am in an applied science field, and still, reading a few of these posts have me wondering whether or not I am being screwed. I had assumed a universality with regards to my package that I never quite bothered to bargain. I'm not sure if I am in a position to do so now.
Ah, there you are. It's an important point that the grad school experience is very different depending on one's field. People in applied fields like engineering tend to get less money in grad school because the expectation is that they will make more when they get out (and, I suspect, because most engineering programs are more coursework oriented than most basic science programs, so you spend less time working on research for a professor, which generates less revenue for the school).

EvoDevo's post was right on the mark, as many subsequent posts have been. Grad students get paid and med students don't because:
A) grad students never get paid very much after they get out, but physicians do,
and B) bio/chem type grad students work as slaves for professors, generating wealth for the school (in a way). Med students don't.

FYI, I'm a PhD student in biology at Caltech; we get stipends of ~$25k, plus free health insurance and a $2200 supply account every year that can be used for travel, equipment, and so forth. Our PIs are not responsible for paying for us until after third year, and I know many students who have gone to meetings in their first and second years, sometimes with department funding, sometimes even with their rotation labs paying.
 

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How many of you are actually in Med school?

Well, let me stand up for the med students.

No one would argue that getting a PhD in a science field is easy. But the pervasive attitude amongst PhD's and grad students that med students and physicians are "stupid," or "mindless robots" who rotely memorize random facts is completely false, and based on simple jealousy and ignorance.

It takes a very intelligent person to be a physician. Sure, anyone can study hard, ace the MCAT, do well in their classes, and pass the USMLE(s). But it takes INTELLIGENCE to be a successful doctor--I know, because I've met and worked with a lot of them.

Physicians are looked down upon by PhDs/grad students because we are well compensated for the work that we do, simple as that. If we made equal amounts of money than it would be a different story.

GuyLaroche, for you to sit here and tell me that a PhD is a "cut above" a MD is bull**it. They both worked their asses off to get where they are, and I'm sorry, sitting in a lab and doing research does not make someone any smarter than a physician who day in and day out comes up with a plan to save the life of someone who has a disease that they may not have ever seen. If you aren't intelligent, you will struggle in this field, simple as that.

I find it quite offensive for you to say that we are more stupid than your average grad student. If that were the case, how come the best and the brightest of EVERY SINGLE FRIGGIN' school in the nation go to med school over grad school? Its the students who don't have the grades, the social skills, (and of course the genuinly interested) who go to grad school. Trust me, if your average MD decided to do research and received the same training as a PhD, he/she could be just as successful.

Cut above my *ss. My "inferior intellect" will be laughing all the way to the bank when I'm making 200+ out of residency. Good luck with the 75+ if you're lucky. :laugh:

And you wonder why there is so much animosity between us? Its because YOU are jealous. That's why.

PS: PhD's are the worst profs in medicine too... :thumbdown:
 

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UCSBMed1 said:
I find it quite offensive for you to say that we are more stupid than your average grad student. If that were the case, how come the best and the brightest of EVERY SINGLE FRIGGIN' school in the nation go to med school over grad school? Its the students who don't have the grades, the social skills, (and of course the genuinly interested) who go to grad school. Trust me, if your average MD decided to do research and received the same training as a PhD, he/she could be just as successful.
Hey, I think the M.D. is a great degree that takes smarts, but what you said is total baloney! Come on, not every smart person in the world wants to go into medicine. Graduate school is not a place for med school rejects.


Lots of nobel prizes in medicine have went to PhDs, dude!
 

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Sparky Man said:
Hey, I think the M.D. is a great degree that takes smarts, but what you said is total baloney! Come on, not every smart person in the world wants to go into medicine. Graduate school is not a place for med school rejects.


Lots of nobel prizes in medicine have went to PhDs, dude!
Of course thats true. As I said in my post, many people in grad school go because they wanted to do research and to add something to scientific knowledge. But the point I was trying to make is that, on average, the most successful undergrads usually choose medicine over grad school, its that simple. I knew a lot (and I'm sure everyone does too) of people who liked science, but didn't have what it took to get into med school and decided to go to grad school by default. I'm not saying its easier, or they're dumber, or they will even be successful, but a lot of people do this.

So how does one figure that we aren't as smart, when, on average, we were MORE successful than a PhD in undergrad?
 

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UCSBMed1 said:
So how does one figure that we aren't as smart, when, on average, we were MORE successful than a PhD in undergrad?
:rolleyes: do you have any hard evidence to back that up?
 

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UCSBMed1 said:
Of course thats true. As I said in my post, many people in grad school go because they wanted to do research and to add something to scientific knowledge. But the point I was trying to make is that, on average, the most successful undergrads usually choose medicine over grad school, its that simple. I knew a lot (and I'm sure everyone does too) of people who liked science, but didn't have what it took to get into med school and decided to go to grad school by default. I'm not saying its easier, or they're dumber, or they will even be successful, but a lot of people do this.

So how does one figure that we aren't as smart, when, on average, we were MORE successful than a PhD in undergrad?
I think that within the uptight circle of premedical education, it can feel like medicine must be the ultimate goal of any person. So it probably seems that when a premed does fail, he/she ends up doing something inferior like graduate school.

It's true that graduate school is less competitive to get into, but I think you are making a pretty narrow statement when you say that the most successful undergrads choose medicine. By your reasoning, almost all graduate students were not the most successful undergraduates - medicine gets nearly all the brilliant students. I have known physicists, engineers, and biochemists who are very smart, smart enough to frighten most premeds and they could care less about medical school. I think medicine gets very talented and motivated students, but I do not think medical schools have the market cornered.
 

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First of all, getting into medical school doesn't mean that you are a smart student. 2/3 of medical students study hard (this doesn't mean they are smart).. Having good grades doesn't mean you are a smart student.

In the case of graduate school, you really don't need good grades to become a good researcher . I know many students in my class who have low GPAs but are doing great research + They come up with creative ideas. Half of medical students lack this skill. Like it or not, it is true though.
 

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well, I guess I have to say something on this ...

So far, from my experiences, my friends, who I think are the few brightest students at Cal, do not choose medicine although they definitely are qualified to do so (i.e. took all the pre-reqs, had great ECs and GPA (despite taking all difficult classes) (well, i think one of them will prob graduate as the top student in our bioengineering prgm this year, etc...). I do not agree that most intelligent undergrad will choose medicine. Some will, other won't not because they do not get in, rather because they like other things.

Choosing a career depends on someone interests. We cannot say which career has the most intelligent people. If engineering doesn't have intelligent people, any of you premed want to step in that airplane which will carry you to the interview?? or to use that medical device??

Medicine has their top people who contribute significantly to the society, and so as engineering, math, humanities, etc....
 

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I don't envy my friends getting "free-rides" at grad school AT ALL.

Can you imagine...staying in lab till 1-2AM running PCRs, doing transformations, analyzing microarray data, doing stupid Excel growth curves....it's the perfect recipe for a bitter life.

True, designing experiments to yield useful data takes some innovation, but honestly I just DON'T CARE enough after the 20th time I've tried doing the experiment w/ some slight variation. Especially when I don't care about the topic I'm studying anyway. Also, I think above all, good research does not require so much innovation but rather extreme anal retentiveness.

And quite honestly, 8 out of the 10 people working in my lab seem unhappy 90% of the time.

I agree that the smartest (science) ppl at my school end up going to grad school, or pursuing MD/PhDs.
 

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I would agree that maybe the most "intelligent" students (science-IQ wise) might tend to choose grad school over med school, but this doesn't mean that the majority of "successful, above average intelligent" students do.

No, I don't have hard evidence as no such evidence exists. But if you do a quick Google search for any school, you'll see that the entering numbers for a university's respective med school are higher than those for the grad school. Now before you attack me, listen to what I'm saying here. I'm not saying that this means that grad students are dumber, or its easier, but how can the notion of med students being "dumber," or not as "insightful," be true if our numbers are higher?

It doesn't make any sense. Its the grad student or PhD who has the inferiority complex that wants to attack the physician because he/she is unhappy. You never here docs coming up with these elaborate jokes about scientists do you? NO! They're too busy saving lives, not sitting around at a bench somewhere.

SparkyMan said:
It's true that graduate school is less competitive to get into, but I think you are making a pretty narrow statement when you say that the most successful undergrads choose medicine. By your reasoning, almost all graduate students were not the most successful undergraduates - medicine gets nearly all the brilliant students. I have known physicists, engineers, and biochemists who are very smart, smart enough to frighten most premeds and they could care less about medical school. I think medicine gets very talented and motivated students, but I do not think medical schools have the market cornered.
Where did you get this "all" business? I never said that all intelligent students go into medicine. Of course there are intelligent (arguably more intelligent) people in other fields such as engineering, physics, computer science, molecular biology, etc. My point was that there are intelligent people in med school too--the numbers don't lie. If you say that "original thinking" is the marking for intelligent, wait until you're at the hospital and see some of these docs at work and then come back and tell me these people are not intelligent.

What physicians do day in and day out is truly remarkable, and I will stand up and argue against anyone who says the contrary any day of the week.

BOTH fields--bench science and applied, clinical science--are vital to the success and progression of scientific knowledge today. I just wish more PhD's would think this way because, trust me, physicians respect and admire what PhDs do for humankind, but I don't think the opposite is true...
 

45408

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UCSBMed1 said:
Where did you get this "all" business? I never said that all intelligent students go into medicine.
Actually, you did. :rolleyes:
UCSBMed1 said:
If that were the case, how come the best and the brightest of EVERY SINGLE FRIGGIN' school in the nation go to med school over grad school?
Apparently, the best students go into medicine, meaning that those who don't, aren't the best students.
UCSBMed1 said:
Cut above my *ss. My "inferior intellect" will be laughing all the way to the bank when I'm making 200+ out of residency. Good luck with the 75+ if you're lucky. :laugh:

And you wonder why there is so much animosity between us? Its because YOU are jealous. That's why.
No, it's because jags like you think that you're better because you're going to be making more money.
 

UCSBMed1

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I said the best students go into medicine--which is true, but NOT ALL of them do. Where do you see the word "all?" I don't see it, sorry...

I don't think I'm better at all. Like I said, I think PhD's are invaluable for furthering medical knowledge, but I just don't take kindly to some "jag" who's never even sat one day in a med school lecture telling me a grad student is a cut above my intellect. Its always the PhDs/grad students who feel the need to belittle and insult med students (in this case, GuyLaRoche). I had great numbers in undergrad; I could have gone to any grad school I wanted. But I wanted to be a physician--that does not make me any less intelligent by any means.
 

eulogia228

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UCSBMed1 said:
I said the best students go into medicine--which is true, but NOT ALL of them do. Where do you see the word "all?" I don't see it, sorry...

I don't think I'm better at all. Like I said, I think PhD's are invaluable for furthering medical knowledge, but I just don't take kindly to some "jag" who's never even sat one day in a med school lecture telling me a grad student is a cut above my intellect. Its always the PhDs/grad students who feel the need to belittle and insult med students (in this case, GuyLaRoche). I had great numbers in undergrad; I could have gone to any grad school I wanted. But I wanted to be a physician--that does not make me any less intelligent by any means.
Looks like a rolling gun battle between grad students and med students in here. I'd like to offer my opinion here. As has been echoed several times over above, grad students contribute to their university in a way that medical students, law students, and business students simply do not. Graduate students are responsible for producing original research, assisting top researchers with their research, garnering more prestige for their institution, and most importantly (to the school at least), drawing MORE funding for the department. Med students do not garner more funding for the department because the vast majority of med students will end up practicing, not researching. MD/PhDs go into research after their training which is why the MD/PhD program is fully funded (with perks). In addition, PhD students get paid horribly after they finish the program. My school's PhD programs in the sciences (physics, chemistry, molecular biology, etc) are consistently ranked in the top 5 in the country by the National Research Council rankings of graduate programs. However, even these PhDs will go on to do a post-doc ($40k salary) and then start at the bottom of the academic ladder as lecturers or assistant professors. For the amount of post-graduate education they have to endure, the pot at the end of the rainbow is very small. However, medical students will be compensated very well after graduation. The salary of the average physician looms over the salary of the average PhD.
 

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Sparky Man said:
Lots of nobel prizes in medicine have went to PhDs, dude!
Uh....but not in grammar..... :oops:

The English teacher in me cringed at that one......sorry, couldn't help it. I make my fair share too....
 

Sparky Man

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abraxas20 said:
Uh....but not in grammar..... :oops:

The English teacher in me cringed at that one......sorry, couldn't help it. I make my fair share too....
I probably need some fun poked at me! I will clean up my language, Miss abraxas20.
 
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