Why is volunteering abroad looked at so unfavorably?

[Planes2Doc]

How do you feel about Joseph Kony? Did you have internet access in 2012? If you have no idea who he is, then you can read my take on this topic here.

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[lalalaaaaaa]

This thread has gotten ridiculous. I don't think anyone here is arguing that longer trips as a whole don't provide more benefit to the locals, that there aren't significant problems with many of these trips (especially short-term ones), or that the volunteer won't benefit significantly from these trips, oftentimes more than the locals.

My point of contention was and is that these trips, even short-term ones, CANNOT provide lasting benefits to those being served in situations that they would otherwise receive no aid at all. Are most programs ideal? Of course not, and many, probably most, are as the people who are against these trips here claim. However, there are some short term trips which are not the same. I would be curious to know how many individuals arguing against these trips have actually participated in any of the. Additionally, many of the problems with the short-term exist with volunteering programs at home as well.

My question to the adcoms like @Goro and @TMC07 is that when applicants have these experiences on their app, if you ask about them are you asking about what they got out of the experience or about what they thought the impacts of those experiences were? Both? Do you do the same with shorter experiences done locally? What about mission trips which occur away from their locality but still within the US?

I regularly hear about the international trips being poorly regarded, but rarely hear about local mission trips receiving the same scrutiny.

This is a genuine question, so I'll give a few insights here.

1) For my experience, I did 2 years of AmeriCorps domestically before medical school including years of service before and during medical school. Never went abroad because why go to Rwanda when down the street is some of the worst poverty in the country? I did an alternative breaks trip in college to Mississippi after Katrina and first realized that one week "helping" really wasn't helping the community as much as it was a good experience for me. Yes we "helped" do some menial tasks, but the people really helping were the community members and the long term volunteers/workers who were coordinating our efforts. We were the bandaid on a scrape when the patient's leg is blown open and they're bleeding out.

In medical school I did an exchange program with a medical school in Rwanda because I wanted to see what global health was like and this was the most ethical way I've seen it done (we brought Rwandan students to our school after we went there to learn about US healthcare). We were there for 6 weeks and it floored me how useless I was. Didn't speak the language, needed to be shepherded around by Rwandan medical student hosts, the communities welcomed us but we didn't really know the issues they needed us to fix even though we had partnered with them for 8 years and had done health assessments and worked really close with the community. I learned that going around the world compounds the challenges of volunteering and "helping" exponentially. I worked domestically with this program for the next 4 years.

I also volunteered running a free clinic for refugees where I went to medical school and realized the "global health at home" component to healthcare. (Don't get me started on the ethics of student run free clinics. They can have significant negative components even though we were "helping." ie people not getting a PCP and coming to see some med students for their primary care (we didn't do that, but some student clinics do).

I then got a research fellowship to go abroad and live in east africa working with the CDC and IOM on refugee health for a year (took off a year of school). This was a long term commitment that gave me close mentorship and strong university and organizational support. Even then there were myriad ethical questions. I was getting paid (as an MS3) several times more than the physicians I worked with. My salary could have paid for 2-3 local physicians who are solid docs and were providing an infinite amount more "help" than I was. I still work on these projects and have a strong commitment to working with refugees both abroad and at home. Even then, I question my work and work hard to make sure I was "helping" as much as possible.
While abroad a ran into several pre-meds working at organizations where I would just roll my eyes because it was known that they just bring in rich white kids and give them some tasks that are relatively meaningless.

2) When people talk about short term missions, they often frame it around how much fun they have or about how cool it was. They don't say, "witnessing poverty on this level really shook me and evaluate how I can continue helping" . When you ask, "what have you done since this one week trip that meant so much to you" they say "nothing" no follow up, no continued thought process. They got the experience and moved on. THIS is the key. People try to demonstrate their altruism by doing a really extensive global project, and have zero follow up and make it about themselves. As a person, and if I were an adcom, this would drive me crazy because it's selfishness guised as altruism. People do this with domestic volunteering as well.

The cultural exchange aspect of these trips can be invaluable to people doing them. It's important to travel and meet people with different experiences than you. But when you overindulge on the "I helped save some poor black babies, just see my facebook picture" then you are taking a borderline ethical issue and taking it off the rails. Some organizations are also really horrible and only run by US people and not partnered by the community (they may not say that in their brochure). It's hard to figure that out and a lot of people get conned by these orgs who are just looking for $$$ and exploiting people with good intentions.

3) These same questions come up for volunteering at home. I've alluded to some already. But for a lot of volunteering at home, it's in your own community and longer term, so usually assumed to be better. For 1 week alternative breaks things, the same things come up as global projects. People need to be able to frame their experience to see the big picture. It's 100% okay to say "I got more out of this than the community, and now I've started this long term volunteer project to demonstrate my commitment to helping the community. As a physician I hope to use this experience to provide ethical and culturally competent care to my patients."

This thread is toxic because a few people aren't able to step back and see the big picture. They are the ones going around putting bandaids on scrapes and calling themselves trauma surgeons. Meanwhile the patient is bleeding out on the floor. (just did ATLS so thinking about trauma a lot haha)

 

[Ultimakey]

This is a genuine question, so I'll give a few insights here.

1) For my experience, I did 2 years of AmeriCorps domestically before medical school including years of service before and during medical school. Never went abroad because why go to Rwanda when down the street is some of the worst poverty in the country? I did an alternative breaks trip in college to Mississippi after Katrina and first realized that one week "helping" really wasn't helping the community as much as it was a good experience for me. Yes we "helped" do some menial tasks, but the people really helping were the community members and the long term volunteers/workers who were coordinating our efforts. We were the bandaid on a scrape when the patient's leg is blown open and they're bleeding out.

In medical school I did an exchange program with a medical school in Rwanda because I wanted to see what global health was like and this was the most ethical way I've seen it done (we brought Rwandan students to our school after we went there to learn about US healthcare). We were there for 6 weeks and it floored me how useless I was. Didn't speak the language, needed to be shepherded around by Rwandan medical student hosts, the communities welcomed us but we didn't really know the issues they needed us to fix even though we had partnered with them for 8 years and had done health assessments and worked really close with the community. I learned that going around the world compounds the challenges of volunteering and "helping" exponentially. I worked domestically with this program for the next 4 years.

I also volunteered running a free clinic for refugees where I went to medical school and realized the "global health at home" component to healthcare. (Don't get me started on the ethics of student run free clinics. They can have significant negative components even though we were "helping." ie people not getting a PCP and coming to see some med students for their primary care (we didn't do that, but some student clinics do).

I then got a research fellowship to go abroad and live in east africa working with the CDC and IOM on refugee health for a year (took off a year of school). This was a long term commitment that gave me close mentorship and strong university and organizational support. Even then there were myriad ethical questions. I was getting paid (as an MS3) several times more than the physicians I worked with. My salary could have paid for 2-3 local physicians who are solid docs and were providing an infinite amount more "help" than I was. I still work on these projects and have a strong commitment to working with refugees both abroad and at home. Even then, I question my work and work hard to make sure I was "helping" as much as possible.
While abroad a ran into several pre-meds working at organizations where I would just roll my eyes because it was known that they just bring in rich white kids and give them some tasks that are relatively meaningless.

2) When people talk about short term missions, they often frame it around how much fun they have or about how cool it was. They don't say, "witnessing poverty on this level really shook me and evaluate how I can continue helping" . When you ask, "what have you done since this one week trip that meant so much to you" they say "nothing" no follow up, no continued thought process. They got the experience and moved on. THIS is the key. People try to demonstrate their altruism by doing a really extensive global project, and have zero follow up and make it about themselves. As a person, and if I were an adcom, this would drive me crazy because it's selfishness guised as altruism. People do this with domestic volunteering as well.

The cultural exchange aspect of these trips can be invaluable to people doing them. It's important to travel and meet people with different experiences than you. But when you overindulge on the "I helped save some poor black babies, just see my facebook picture" then you are taking a borderline ethical issue and taking it off the rails. Some organizations are also really horrible and only run by US people and not partnered by the community (they may not say that in their brochure). It's hard to figure that out and a lot of people get conned by these orgs who are just looking for $$$ and exploiting people with good intentions.

3) These same questions come from volunteering at home. I've alluded to some already. But for a lot of volunteering at home, it's in your own community and longer term. For 1 week alternative breaks things, the same things come up as global projects. People need to be able to frame their experience to see the big picture. It's 100% okay to say "I got more out of this than the community, and now I've started this long term volunteer project to demonstrate my commitment to helping the community. As a physician I hope to use this experience to provide ethical and culturally competent care to my patients."

This thread is toxic because a few people aren't able to step back and see the big picture. They are the ones going around putting bandaids on scrapes and calling themselves trauma surgeons. Meanwhile the patient is bleeding out on the floor. (just did ATLS so thinking about trauma a lot haha)

Honestly, your post really reflects on me. Mind the grammar because I’m on a boat and feeling kind of .

I’ve had multiple volunteering gigs with different groups of “less fortunate” people, but the one that had the biggest impact on me was the incarcerated population I tutored. It was great working with them and some of them seemed to retain a bit of the study habits/love for learning that I tried to pass on to them. However, the experience really opened my eyes to the large faults in America’s mass incarceration. The prison’s “school” had limited study materials (all the copies were worn out) and attempting to order new ones proved fruitless. The teachers that were supposed to be teaching the students just read off of their books and assigned practice problems. No enthusiasm, no personalized attention. This was to be expected because the environment probably took a toll on the teacher, as well as being underpaid. The students had even told us numerous times that they wanted us to replace the teachers and that we were much better than the hired teachers (we were volunteers), and although this was flattering, It should definitely NOT be the case. There were many other issues that impacted me, such as the limited education in the communities that these students, who were primarily AA, had available to them.

I think that it’s very hard to change a system as large as America’s prison system, as its overhaul has been campaigned for numerous times. I found It a better idea to attempt to change the school system in these underprivileged neighborhoods. I did this through leading a campaign with an organization, as well as organizing some science fairs in these underprivileged schools. Sure, campaigning might not be the most fruitful way of obtaining change, but we’ve already met the governor and various other politicians, and they agreed to some of our terms.

All I was trying to say with all of this is that I think the most important thing is what you do after volunteering to attempt to change the situation. Even a 9-day trip can be compared to a Peace Corps experience, in my opinion, depending on how much you do after the volunteer experience.

I hate sea sickness...

 

[lalalaaaaaa]

Honestly, your post really reflects on me. Mind the grammar because I’m on a boat and feeling kind of .

I’ve had multiple volunteering gigs with different groups of “less fortunate” people, but the one that had the biggest impact on me was the incarcerated population I tutored. It was great working with them and some of them seemed to retain a bit of the study habits/love for learning that I tried to pass on to them. However, the experience really opened my eyes to the large faults in America’s mass incarceration. The prison’s “school” had limited study materials (all the copies were worn out) and attempting to order new ones proved fruitless. The teachers that were supposed to be teaching the students just read off of their books and assigned practice problems. No enthusiasm, no personalized attention. This was to be expected because the environment probably took a toll on the teacher, as well as being underpaid. The students had even told us numerous times that they wanted us to replace the teachers and that we were much better than the hired teachers (we were volunteers), and although this was flattering, It should definitely NOT be the case. There were many other issues that impacted me, such as the limited education in the communities that these students, who were primarily AA, had available to them.

I think that it’s very hard to change a system as large as America’s prison system, as its overhaul has been campaigned for numerous times. I found It a better idea to attempt to change the school system in these underprivileged neighborhoods. I did this through leading a campaign with an organization, as well as organizing some science fairs in these underprivileged schools. Sure, campaigning might not be the most fruitful way of obtaining change, but we’ve already met the governor and various other politicians, and they agreed to some of our terms.

All I was trying to say with all of this is that I think the most important thing is what you do after volunteering to attempt to change the situation. Even a 9-day trip can be compared to a Peace Corps experience, in my opinion, depending on how much you do after the volunteer experience.

I hate sea sickness...

Anddddd that's how you get accepted to medical school.

 

[Stagg737]

And to your second question: trips done at home are fundamentally different. First, people here wouldn’t dream of taking photos of disadvantaged kids in the Bronx or of the homeless in LA and then posting them all over social media while talking about how they’re doing so much for those people, but then they do that without hesitation in Ethiopia or Vietnam. There is this idea that we can save those from poor countries on a short trip, but we know how little we are able to accomplish in our own country. I personally believe this is due to ignorance as well as arrogance. We don’t exploit our own people in the same way or to the same degree as we exploit locals when we go abroad. For most people, that insta shot is just too good to be passed up.

I will adamantly disagree with this point, as I know many people who have done exactly that with local volunteering experiences. Though the point in general about photos of patients is valid as a whole.

Also, organizations in the US are far more regulated, so your volunteer experience here is less likely to harm someone. A prime example of this is premeds administering vaccines in a clinic in sub-Saharan Africa, but only fetching blankets in their local hospital. You may be allowed to do stuff abroad that you aren’t qualified to do and you could hurt some. Hospitals and physicians here would be responsible for this. The same is not true abroad.

The vaccine example isn't the best one, as a trained monkey could administer vaccines with 5 minutes of instruction, the point is valid though. My only critique here is that I don't like using "regulations" as a part of the ethics conversation. One of my shadowing experiences as a pre-med was watching surgery with my mentor (ortho). I was allowed to shadow in his PP and only sign a HIPAA waiver. Just to watch surgeries at the hospital took over a month's worth of paperwork, almost all of which was unnecessary and was simply there for legal purposes. I do agree that we have more regulations in place than many of these locales, but when bringing this into an ethics conversation I'm always weary to ensure that many of the regulations here are NOT ethically relevant.

And as I stated before, we have the infrastructure set up here to encourage development and change. We also understand our environment and are held accountable for ourselves and what we do. When we don’t understand the world around us and we aren’t being held accountable, it’s easy to be blissfully ignorant about what we’ve actually done.

I can agree with almost all of this. The only thing I'd add is that some of these international projects attempt to aid in setting up that infrastructure abroad as well.

This is a genuine question, so I'll give a few insights here.

1) For my experience, I did 2 years of AmeriCorps domestically before medical school including years of service before and during medical school. Never went abroad because why go to Rwanda when down the street is some of the worst poverty in the country? I did an alternative breaks trip in college to Mississippi after Katrina and first realized that one week "helping" really wasn't helping the community as much as it was a good experience for me. Yes we "helped" do some menial tasks, but the people really helping were the community members and the long term volunteers/workers who were coordinating our efforts. We were the bandaid on a scrape when the patient's leg is blown open and they're bleeding out.

In medical school I did an exchange program with a medical school in Rwanda because I wanted to see what global health was like and this was the most ethical way I've seen it done (we brought Rwandan students to our school after we went there to learn about US healthcare). We were there for 6 weeks and it floored me how useless I was. Didn't speak the language, needed to be shepherded around by Rwandan medical student hosts, the communities welcomed us but we didn't really know the issues they needed us to fix even though we had partnered with them for 8 years and had done health assessments and worked really close with the community. I learned that going around the world compounds the challenges of volunteering and "helping" exponentially. I worked domestically with this program for the next 4 years.

I also volunteered running a free clinic for refugees where I went to medical school and realized the "global health at home" component to healthcare. (Don't get me started on the ethics of student run free clinics. They can have significant negative components even though we were "helping." ie people not getting a PCP and coming to see some med students for their primary care (we didn't do that, but some student clinics do).

I then got a research fellowship to go abroad and live in east africa working with the CDC and IOM on refugee health for a year (took off a year of school). This was a long term commitment that gave me close mentorship and strong university and organizational support. Even then there were myriad ethical questions. I was getting paid (as an MS3) several times more than the physicians I worked with. My salary could have paid for 2-3 local physicians who are solid docs and were providing an infinite amount more "help" than I was. I still work on these projects and have a strong commitment to working with refugees both abroad and at home. Even then, I question my work and work hard to make sure I was "helping" as much as possible.
While abroad a ran into several pre-meds working at organizations where I would just roll my eyes because it was known that they just bring in rich white kids and give them some tasks that are relatively meaningless.

2) When people talk about short term missions, they often frame it around how much fun they have or about how cool it was. They don't say, "witnessing poverty on this level really shook me and evaluate how I can continue helping" . When you ask, "what have you done since this one week trip that meant so much to you" they say "nothing" no follow up, no continued thought process. They got the experience and moved on. THIS is the key. People try to demonstrate their altruism by doing a really extensive global project, and have zero follow up and make it about themselves. As a person, and if I were an adcom, this would drive me crazy because it's selfishness guised as altruism. People do this with domestic volunteering as well.

The cultural exchange aspect of these trips can be invaluable to people doing them. It's important to travel and meet people with different experiences than you. But when you overindulge on the "I helped save some poor black babies, just see my facebook picture" then you are taking a borderline ethical issue and taking it off the rails. Some organizations are also really horrible and only run by US people and not partnered by the community (they may not say that in their brochure). It's hard to figure that out and a lot of people get conned by these orgs who are just looking for $$$ and exploiting people with good intentions.

3) These same questions come from volunteering at home. I've alluded to some already. But for a lot of volunteering at home, it's in your own community and longer term. For 1 week alternative breaks things, the same things come up as global projects. People need to be able to frame their experience to see the big picture. It's 100% okay to say "I got more out of this than the community, and now I've started this long term volunteer project to demonstrate my commitment to helping the community. As a physician I hope to use this experience to provide ethical and culturally competent care to my patients."

This thread is toxic because a few people aren't able to step back and see the big picture. They are the ones going around putting bandaids on scrapes and calling themselves trauma surgeons. Meanwhile the patient is bleeding out on the floor. (just did ATLS so thinking about trauma a lot haha)

TY for the response and sharing your experiences, some of the programs through your med school sound interesting. Some thoughts for your points:

1) I think you highlight some of the problems that exist even with the long-term programs well. My previous points have somewhat been based out of personal experience in addition to awareness through other global health programs (strong desire to participate in MSF trips, but not really able to now due to my chosen specialty). Some programs, even short-term ones do address some of these problems. For example, the best trip I went on (one through my school partnering with the gov of one of these countries) had the volunteers who were fluent or near-fluent in the language doing public health surveys with these communities. We were only at these communities for a day or two, but in one of them the results of those surveys led to a long-term project which reduced Hep A infections to almost zero when it was rampant when I was there (found this out while discussing helping be a leader for that trip as an alum). Another part of that program was actually transporting individuals who were 3+ hours away from hospitals when they had urgent needs. There were a few lives saved by this service, which is relatively low-impact on those communities, but everything to those individuals and their families. This wasn't really the typical trip where people go to a clinic for a few days, do basic medical stuff, and then leave, but I do think it is worthwhile to point out that better programs do exist and those truly interested in learning about global health and becoming more involved later should seek out those type of experiences instead of the ones where they're just in a pop-up clinic for a few days playing doctor.

2) The bolded was one of my biggest pet peeves when I worked with admissions and something that was an instant red flag when I talked with applicants. It's something which is also true of local volunteering too though, as many people have pretty superficial answers to what they got out of any volunteering experience. I'd be interested in seeing the results of a survey done on med students which asked what the purpose of volunteering was and what they gained from it. I think it would show that the majority of pre-meds perform most of their volunteering just to check that box. I'll even admit that a good amount of my 500+ pre-med volunteer hours were that, including almost all of my clinical hours in the US where I was essentially free labor for that health system. To the second part, I agree and think that's why it's so important look into the programs and find out what is actually being done on those trips, regardless of how long or where they are.

3) Agree with this. Only thing I'd add is that one doesn't even need to start a long-term project or continue with that program. Some things just don't click with the individual or they just don't get that much out of it and that's okay (including international trips). I think a take-away point should be that if that's the case for one experience, they should have others where they did learn something valuable, hopefully something they can apply to their careers, even if they do recognize that it helped them more than the community they were working with.

Honestly, your post really reflects on me. Mind the grammar because I’m on a boat and feeling kind of .

I’ve had multiple volunteering gigs with different groups of “less fortunate” people, but the one that had the biggest impact on me was the incarcerated population I tutored. It was great working with them and some of them seemed to retain a bit of the study habits/love for learning that I tried to pass on to them. However, the experience really opened my eyes to the large faults in America’s mass incarceration. The prison’s “school” had limited study materials (all the copies were worn out) and attempting to order new ones proved fruitless. The teachers that were supposed to be teaching the students just read off of their books and assigned practice problems. No enthusiasm, no personalized attention. This was to be expected because the environment probably took a toll on the teacher, as well as being underpaid. The students had even told us numerous times that they wanted us to replace the teachers and that we were much better than the hired teachers (we were volunteers), and although this was flattering, It should definitely NOT be the case. There were many other issues that impacted me, such as the limited education in the communities that these students, who were primarily AA, had available to them.

I think that it’s very hard to change a system as large as America’s prison system, as its overhaul has been campaigned for numerous times. I found It a better idea to attempt to change the school system in these underprivileged neighborhoods. I did this through leading a campaign with an organization, as well as organizing some science fairs in these underprivileged schools. Sure, campaigning might not be the most fruitful way of obtaining change, but we’ve already met the governor and various other politicians, and they agreed to some of our terms.

All I was trying to say with all of this is that I think the most important thing is what you do after volunteering to attempt to change the situation. Even a 9-day trip can be compared to a Peace Corps experience, in my opinion, depending on how much you do after the volunteer experience.

I hate sea sickness...

This is exactly the kind of introspection that I expect from applicants. It doesn't have to be as deep as this, but it should show more than just a superficial thought about what they actually did. Again, one doesn't even have to try and continue to change that specific situation (though that's definitely a big bonus) as they may not be passionate about that. However, they should be able to recognize the deeper problems than just "prisoners need education too" and show that they are capable of utilizing those thought processes throughout their careers.

 

[Goro]

Clearly this is a divisive issue. I'm going to ask for civility, again...

Who would have thought?

 

[Planes2Doc]

I'm going to give you an amazing opportunity... What if I told you that the $2,000 you would spend on a mission trip can be donated to the [INSERT PLACE YOU WERE PLANNING ON GOING TO] and that 100% of this amount would directly help the people there. What's the catch? You can't put this on your medical school application.

If you've lost interest in this said population, then it proves the point as to why medical mission trips are looked at so unfavorably.

Our baby is almost 5 months old now, and I never realized how much money the baby industry makes! I can't imagine that companies taking advantage... err... I mean catering to pre-meds and other pre-professional students are too far behind. When my wife and I went on our honeymoon, we spent about 10 days in Bali. We had a private tour guide and driver, that took us all over the large island. We spent a lot of money at hotels, restaurants, excursions, shops, and elsewhere. We had an amazing time. The $6,000 we spent probably did a whole lot more to help the people there and the local economy than paying some organization $2,500 to give you photo opportunities of handing out some Tylenol to locals and spending the rest of the time on the beach (while lining the pockets of the organization). If you genuinely care about said population, then you can actually do more for them by just vacationing there. Sadly, you can't put your vacation down as an activity on your medical school application.

Unless you're someone like Dikembe Mutombo or Luol Deng, both of which contribute a lot to the countries they came from; will face an uphill battle having to convince an ADCOM as to why you care so much about a certain group of people in a far away land. Was it the cheapest trip, maybe the most exciting? I'm not too sure. But if you aren't willing to just give a few grand through a direct contribution or just vacation (without being able to put it on your application), then you'll need to explain why you couldn't just volunteer somewhere locally in your community.

Below is a picture from our honeymoon in Bali. I can assure you we had way more fun than what any "mission trip" could have provided:

 

[lalalaaaaaa]

I'm going to give you an amazing opportunity... What if I told you that the $2,000 you would spend on a mission trip can be donated to the [INSERT PLACE YOU WERE PLANNING ON GOING TO] and that 100% of this amount would directly help the people there. What's the catch? You can't put this on your medical school application.

My favorite is people using a gofundme to raise money for.... themselves lol. Raising money not for the impoverished people they are "helping" but to cover their own plane ticket. Med students do this a lot too. Drives me crazy.

 

[Planes2Doc]

My favorite is people using a gofundme to raise money for.... themselves lol. Raising money not for the impoverished people they are "helping" but to cover their own plane ticket. Med students do this a lot too. Drives me crazy.

Oh my. That would drive me insane as well!

 

[Goro]

My question to the adcoms like @Goro and @TMC07 is that when applicants have these experiences on their app, if you ask about them are you asking about what they got out of the experience or about what they thought the impacts of those experiences were? Both? Do you do the same with shorter experiences done locally?

What about mission trips which occur away from their locality but still within the US?
I regularly hear about the international trips being poorly regarded, but rarely hear about local mission trips receiving the same scrutiny.

For the latter, I rarely, if ever, see people discuss local mission trips. But at least Habitat for Humanity actually does something.

For the former, I ask what they got out of the trip. I already know that a week long overseas mission isn't going to accomplish much....if it's really a medical mission and not merely an excuse to go visit the Old Country and see Nana/Abuela/Daadee ma/Zǔmǔ.

And I'm dead serious that the most common answer is that they were surprised at how bad the poverty is over there. And on top of that, very few of these people speak with passion about the trip...another tip-off that they actually didn't do anything, were embellishing, or outright lying.

Frankly, we simply discount these trips and don't bother asking about them.

 

[Stagg737]

For the latter, I rarely, if ever, see people discuss local mission trips. But at least Habitat for Humanity actually does something.

For the former, I ask what they got out of the trip. I already know that a week long overseas mission isn't going to accomplish much....if it's really a medical mission and not merely an excuse to go visit the Old Country and see Nana/Abuela/Daadee ma/Zǔmǔ.

And I'm dead serious that the most common answer is that they were surprised at how bad the poverty is over there. And on top of that, very few of these people speak with passion about the trip...another tip-off that they actually didn't do anything, were embellishing, or outright lying.

Frankly, we simply discount these trips and don't bother asking about them.

I absolutely believe the bolded and agree completely that a lot of these trips are either to say they did something while taking a vacation or simply to see what international medicine/healthcare in other countries is like. I don't have that much of a problem with the latter, as it's basically admitting they were to learn and gain experienced as opposed to really trying to make a big difference. The former is obviously more problematic.

The lack of introspection and reflection on all volunteering activities as a whole is disappointing. I just feel like international trips are somewhat of a low-hanging fruit and get a spotlight when there are plenty of local experiences which are basically the same thing (best example I've seen is ER volunteering).

 

[sunshinefl]

If you’re doing things that you couldn’t do in the US, then you shouldn’t be doing it. Don’t take pictures of the patients, don’t do things you aren’t qualified to do, etc. Other than that, I don’t see what’s wrong with going somewhere and engaging with an international population.

 

[Planes2Doc]

I'd be interested in seeing the results of a survey done on med students which asked what the purpose of volunteering was and what they gained from it. I think it would show that the majority of pre-meds perform most of their volunteering just to check that box. I'll even admit that a good amount of my 500+ pre-med volunteer hours were that, including almost all of my clinical hours in the US where I was essentially free labor for that health system.

Stay tuned... This is exactly my research project and I'm currently working on getting it submitted for publication as well as presentation at ACGME and/or AACOM conferences.

 

[Planes2Doc]

And to your second question: trips done at home are fundamentally different. For starters, we don’t exploit our own people in the same way or to the same degree as we exploit the less fortunate abroad. The vast majority of people wouldn’t dream of taking photos of disadvantaged kids in the Bronx or of the homeless in LA and then posting them all over social media while talking about how they’re doing so much good for the world. Whether this is because it’s less “exotic” for social media or we perceive it as wrong, I don’t know. All I know is that it doesn’t happen often here, but it happens a whole lot abroad.

Well actually... People do post stuff like this. In fact, I've often seen photos of homeless people/panhandlers/passed out drug-users in tent villages in cities with large homeless populations being turned into memes. Sad.

 

[deleted480308]

Well actually... People do post stuff like this. In fact, I've often seen photos of homeless people/panhandlers/passed out drug-users in tent villages in cities with large homeless populations being turned into memes. Sad.

I absolutely had classmates posting pics with migrant workers

 

[Ultimakey]

Well actually... People do post stuff like this. In fact, I've often seen photos of homeless people/panhandlers/passed out drug-users in tent villages in cities with large homeless populations being turned into memes. Sad.

The culture that we have of homeless people being “less than” needs to be done away with.

Anddddd that's how you get accepted to medical school.

Honestly, I’m doubtful on that. I’ve been told by several people that my campaigning will keep me out of medical school. The main reasons being:

1. I will be perceived as a social justice activist and will be told to become one.
2. There will be no way an adcom will believe I can connect my experiences to medicine.

I’m probably just not going to mention the work (will probably be 1000+ hours) so I don’t put myself in a trap, like my pre-med advisor told me would happen.

 

[lalalaaaaaa]

Honestly, I’m doubtful on that. I’ve been told by several people that my campaigning will keep me out of medical school. The main reasons being:

1. I will be perceived a social justice activist and will be told to become one.
2. There will be no way an adcom will believe I can connect my experiences to medicine.

I’m probably just not going to mention the work (will probably be 1000+ hours) so I don’t put myself in a trap, like my pre-med advisor told me would happen.

I know 3 people in my medical school class who worked on Obama's campaigns and were super open about it. You can be whatever you want to be. My class had a huge social justice focus and it was awesome. Being an activist can take many forms, and being perceived as a social justice activist should be a good thing right? There are huge activist communities run by medical students all over the country and they are respected by institutions in the top tier of medical schools (see White Coats for Black Lives as an example). You would probably be shocked to see how much of an activist community there is even within academic medicine. Obviously there is an "old guard" of anti-political thought, but that's falling by the wayside (for example within surgery there is a HUGE activist community at the highest level especially in regards to gun violence by trauma surgeons).

Not sure what the "trap" is that you're referring to. If you're an activist against the prison industrial complex, I'm sure you will find a lot of friends within medicine. And if they don't like it you can thoughtfully explain your points and then it should matter even if they disagree with you. Would love to hear what adcoms on here think about this though.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

The culture that we have of homeless people being “less than” needs to be done away with.

Honestly, I’m doubtful on that. I’ve been told by several people that my campaigning will keep me out of medical school. The main reasons being:

1. I will be perceived as a social justice activist and will be told to become one.
2. There will be no way an adcom will believe I can connect my experiences to medicine.

I’m probably just not going to mention the work (will probably be 1000+ hours) so I don’t put myself in a trap, like my pre-med advisor told me would happen.

Homeless people advocacy became too political with what's happening in SF and LA.

 

[Ultimakey]

I know 3 people in my medical school class who worked on Obama's campaigns and were super open about it. You can be whatever you want to be. My class had a huge social justice focus and it was awesome. Being an activist can take many forms, and being perceived as a social justice activist should be a good thing right? There are huge activist communities run by medical students all over the country and they are respected by institutions in the top tier of medical schools (see White Coats for Black Lives as an example). You would probably be shocked to see how much of an activist community there is even within academic medicine. Obviously there is an "old guard" of anti-political thought, but that's falling by the wayside (for example within surgery there is a HUGE activist community at the highest level especially in regards to gun violence by trauma surgeons).

Not sure what the "trap" is that you're referring to. If you're an activist against the prison industrial complex, I'm sure you will find a lot of friends within medicine. And if they don't like it you can thoughtfully explain your points and then it should matter even if they disagree with you. Would love to hear what adcoms on here think about this though.

Thanks for the information! I’ll look into the campaigns you mentioned. The “trap” that I mentioned was that my advocacy is focused on the inequity of education in my state with regards to neighborhoods (due to poor allocation of funds), rather than health inequities. The campaign isn’t really political in the sense of ‘red v. blue’. I was told this would put me in a pitfall of having insufficient connection to medicine and would be told to become a teacher/activist. I suppose in the chain of improving education available to the disadvantaged, there will be lower incarceration rates, better access to healthcare, better chances of going into higher education, and better built communities.

Would also like any adcom’s thoughts on this, if they could offer It.

 

[Goro]

The culture that we have of homeless people being “less than” needs to be done away with.

Honestly, I’m doubtful on that. I’ve been told by several people that my campaigning will keep me out of medical school. The main reasons being:

1. I will be perceived as a social justice activist and will be told to become one.
2. There will be no way an adcom will believe I can connect my experiences to medicine.

I’m probably just not going to mention the work (will probably be 1000+ hours) so I don’t put myself in a trap, like my pre-med advisor told me would happen.

It's a pre med delusion that everything you do has to be connected to Medicine.

 

[Moko]

I’m probably just not going to mention the work (will probably be 1000+ hours) so I don’t put myself in a trap, like my pre-med advisor told me would happen.

The “trap” that I mentioned was that my advocacy is focused on the inequity of education in my state with regards to neighborhoods (due to poor allocation of funds), rather than health inequities. The campaign isn’t really political in the sense of ‘red v. blue’. I was told this would put me in a pitfall of having insufficient connection to medicine and would be told to become a teacher/activist.

This is terrible advice by your advisor. You should absolutely mention your work with disadvantaged populations and education inequity. People on here often wonder what makes a stellar application, well it's things like this that demonstrate true passion for something. It does not need to be related to medicine. Many skills you've gained from this activity are likely transferable to medicine: your ability to effectively get your message across to skeptical audiences, and to navigate bureaucracies and create partnerships, etc. From what you're describing, your activities neither appear controversial nor terribly political. And even if it was seen as political, it's not so much about having beliefs that align with the adcoms', but rather, it's about your ability to discuss your views in a thoughtful and reasonable manner with folks who may have divergent viewpoints. Just my thoughts.

 

[Seihai]

@Ultimakey I'd take note of the responses above, especially since they come from people who are active on admissions committees. Premed advisors can very often be wrong about things (just search in these forums to find many, many examples).

 

[Stagg737]

Stay tuned... This is exactly my research project and I'm currently working on getting it submitted for publication as well as presentation at ACGME and/or AACOM conferences.

I'd be really interested to read this when it's out, or get a summary preview

From personal experience with students at several med schools, I would guess that most people have 1 or less truly meaningful experiences. I obviously hope I'm wrong, but would be pretty surprised if I was.

Honestly, I’m doubtful on that. I’ve been told by several people that my campaigning will keep me out of medical school. The main reasons being:

1. I will be perceived as a social justice activist and will be told to become one.
2. There will be no way an adcom will believe I can connect my experiences to medicine.

I’m probably just not going to mention the work (will probably be 1000+ hours) so I don’t put myself in a trap, like my pre-med advisor told me would happen.

1. Adcom's aren't going to tell you what path you should take (or at least they shouldn't).
2. As Goro said, this isn't important so long as you actually do have clinical experiences.

This seems like a pretty great experience and I don't think any Adcom would recommend that you not include it. In reference to you "campaigning" about it, that could be a point of contention depending on what that means. Are you actively (or only) participating in protests which become uncivil? In that case it may be better not to mention it. There was a thread a while back about someone who got arrested and spent the night in jail after a protest (I think in Seattle) got violent. It was an interesting and somewhat polarized thread, but there were a number of people that said that individual would go straight into their auto-reject pile. If "campaigning" is more along the lines of raising awareness, speaking to politicians or proposing legislation, or attempting to start funds or organizations to address these inequalities and help improve this problem then this would be looked at in a very positive light regardless of anyone's political affiliation.

Also, your advisor sounds really oblivious, which is unfortunately pretty common among pre-med advisors.

I know 3 people in my medical school class who worked on Obama's campaigns and were super open about it.

This on the other hand may be best left out/adjusted depending on the school one is applying to. Most places probably wouldn't auto-reject or openly state it as a negative, but it could certainly effect an application. Overtly political things are always a bit of a risk, so I'd certainly be more careful there (regardless of affiliation).

Thanks for the information! I’ll look into the campaigns you mentioned. The “trap” that I mentioned was that my advocacy is focused on the inequity of education in my state with regards to neighborhoods (due to poor allocation of funds), rather than health inequities. The campaign isn’t really political in the sense of ‘red v. blue’. I was told this would put me in a pitfall of having insufficient connection to medicine and would be told to become a teacher/activist. I suppose in the chain of improving education available to the disadvantaged, there will be lower incarceration rates, better access to healthcare, better chances of going into higher education, and better built communities.

Would also like any adcom’s thoughts on this, if they could offer It.

Not an Adcom, but worked with the admissions department when I was in med school. This is still fantastic and one of those truly great experiences that most applicants don't have (I didn't). The only way this would hurt in the way you're suggesting is if your entire app is built around how you want to fix this problem and never mention wanting to be a doctor, which I would hope would not be the case, lol.

 

[Moko]

In reference to you "campaigning" about it, that could be a point of contention depending on what that means. Are you actively (or only) participating in protests which become uncivil? In that case it may be better not to mention it. There was a thread a while back about someone who got arrested and spent the night in jail after a protest (I think in Seattle) got violent. It was an interesting and somewhat polarized thread, but there were a number of people that said that individual would go straight into their auto-reject pile. If "campaigning" is more along the lines of raising awareness, speaking to politicians or proposing legislation, or attempting to start funds or organizations to address these inequalities and help improve this problem then this would be looked at in a very positive light regardless of anyone's political affiliation

Completely agree with this. Advocacy is welcome until it breaks the law (just or not) -- depending on the offense, it can definitely severely hurt an application. I suspect that Ultima's campaigning is more in-line with the second form though (raising awareness, addressing inequalities via legislation and advocacy).

 

[Ultimakey]

It's a pre med delusion that everything you do has to be connected to Medicine.

This is terrible advice by your advisor. You should absolutely mention your work with disadvantaged populations and education inequity. People on here often wonder what makes a stellar application, well it's things like this that demonstrate true passion for something. It does not need to be related to medicine. Many skills you've gained from this activity are likely transferable to medicine: your ability to effectively get your message across to skeptical audiences, and to navigate bureaucracies and create partnerships, etc. From what you're describing, your activities neither appear controversial nor terribly political. And even if it was seen as political, it's not so much about having beliefs that align with the adcoms', but rather, it's about your ability to discuss your views in a thoughtful and reasonable manner with folks who may have divergent viewpoints. Just my thoughts.

Thank you both for sharing your thoughts on this!

I'd be really interested to read this when it's out, or get a summary preview

From personal experience with students at several med schools, I would guess that most people have 1 or less truly meaningful experiences. I obviously hope I'm wrong, but would be pretty surprised if I was.



1. Adcom's aren't going to tell you what path you should take (or at least they shouldn't).
2. As Goro said, this isn't important so long as you actually do have clinical experiences.

This seems like a pretty great experience and I don't think any Adcom would recommend that you not include it. In reference to you "campaigning" about it, that could be a point of contention depending on what that means. Are you actively (or only) participating in protests which become uncivil? In that case it may be better not to mention it. There was a thread a while back about someone who got arrested and spent the night in jail after a protest (I think in Seattle) got violent. It was an interesting and somewhat polarized thread, but there were a number of people that said that individual would go straight into their auto-reject pile. If "campaigning" is more along the lines of raising awareness, speaking to politicians or proposing legislation, or attempting to start funds or organizations to address these inequalities and help improve this problem then this would be looked at in a very positive light regardless of anyone's political affiliation.

Also, your advisor sounds really oblivious, which is unfortunately pretty common among pre-med advisors.



This on the other hand may be best left out/adjusted depending on the school one is applying to. Most places probably wouldn't auto-reject or openly state it as a negative, but it could certainly effect an application. Overtly political things are always a bit of a risk, so I'd certainly be more careful there (regardless of affiliation).



Not an Adcom, but worked with the admissions department when I was in med school. This is still fantastic and one of those truly great experiences that most applicants don't have (I didn't). The only way this would hurt in the way you're suggesting is if your entire app is built around how you want to fix this problem and never mention wanting to be a doctor, which I would hope would not be the case, lol.

Completely agree with this. Advocacy is welcome until it breaks the law (just or not) -- depending on the offense, it can definitely severely hurt an application. I suspect that Ultima's campaigning is more in-line with the second form though (raising awareness, addressing inequalities via legislation and advocacy).

Yea, the advocacy is definitely the second type. We try to recruit student representatives from each school that has a high dropout/failure rate and run events with politicians to discuss the situations in the schools. Most of the events have the students giving speeches, poetry (spoken word), anecdotes, etc about their experiences. I’m more on the side of recruiting students and helping to set up events, as well as meeting the politicians and speaking with them. I also create partnerships with organizations that I’ve volunteered with in the past. There is, of course, the classic ‘rallying-with-signs’ type of campaigning, but it’s all student-lead, so it’s non-violent.

My application will have hundreds of clinical hours, so I can attest to wanting to become a doctor, but my research hours may suffer. I think my application is going to be primarily non-clinical focused (bunch of different volunteering with underserved+Peace Corps).

 

[Stagg737]

Thank you both for sharing your thoughts on this!


Yea, the advocacy is definitely the second type. We try to recruit student representatives from each school that has a high dropout/failure rate and run events with politicians to discuss the situations in the schools. Most of the events have the students giving speeches, poetry (spoken word), anecdotes, etc about their experiences. I’m more on the side of recruiting students and helping to set up events, as well as meeting the politicians and speaking with them. I also create partnerships with organizations that I’ve volunteered with in the past. There is, of course, the classic ‘rallying-with-signs’ type of campaigning, but it’s all student-lead, so it’s non-violent.

My application will have hundreds of clinical hours, so I can attest to wanting to become a doctor, but my research hours may suffer. I think my application is going to be primarily non-clinical focused (bunch of different volunteering with underserved+Peace Corps).

Sounds like you're good to go then. As for research, it's not really a requirement and more of icing on the cake. Not having it will only really hurt at the research heavy schools. Even if your app is weak in that area, it sounds very strong in other areas and I would not be overly concerned about this.

 

[LizzyM]

Advocacy is welcome until it breaks the law (just or not) -- depending on the offense,

I know two people who got into med school and went on to fine careers in medicine... one spent time in jail as a freedom rider and the other started med school with an outstanding warrant due to a Vietnam-era campus sit-in. Have times changed that much or is today's generation overly cautious?

 

[Seihai]

I know two people who got into med school and went on to fine careers in medicine... one spent time in jail as a freedom rider and the other started med school with an outstanding warrant due to a Vietnam-era campus sit-in. Have times changed that much or is today's generation overly cautious?

I'd claim it's not necessarily that today's generation is that cautious, but that society is less likely to jail people for advocacy. I'd argue that the advocates of today are significantly more militant in their advocacy, but that fewer abuses of the law take place that send such people to jail unfairly.

Now, obviously this is a massive generalization. There are plenty of instances in today's society where exactly that has happened regardless, even going all the way to prosecution, but I don't know if it's become more common.

As such, being jailed for advocacy is seen as you having gone too far and that you don't know where the boundary between acceptable and unacceptable disruption lies.

This is only what I've observed - I'm not making any claims as to what way I fall on this issue or whether this is right or wrong.

 

[Moko]

I know two people who got into med school and went on to fine careers in medicine... one spent time in jail as a freedom rider and the other started med school with an outstanding warrant due to a Vietnam-era campus sit-in. Have times changed that much or is today's generation overly cautious?

I personally would be cautious given how conservative (not politically-speaking) some faculty are. Of course it depends on the offense (whether violence was involved, property damaged etc).

 

[Goro]

This is terrible advice by your advisor. You should absolutely mention your work with disadvantaged populations and education inequity. People on here often wonder what makes a stellar application, well it's things like this that demonstrate true passion for something. It does not need to be related to medicine. Many skills you've gained from this activity are likely transferable to medicine: your ability to effectively get your message across to skeptical audiences, and to navigate bureaucracies and create partnerships, etc. From what you're describing, your activities neither appear controversial nor terribly political. And even if it was seen as political, it's not so much about having beliefs that align with the adcoms', but rather, it's about your ability to discuss your views in a thoughtful and reasonable manner with folks who may have divergent viewpoints. Just my thoughts.

The smart thing is not to listen to your advisor. The road to medical school is littered with the festering corpses of students who did and found out that the information they'd been given was lousy. The wise LizzyM