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It seems the previous thread has been removed or lose in the "update". I was also "un-registered". Let's assume it to be due to computer error. Since some had responded with good questions I will repost the previous notes for your review and,as usual, welcome your comments.
===========================================
Why go to medical school? What are the pro?s and con?s? Now, 50+ years since high school and
after 32 years in surgical practice, I?m convinced there are valid reasons why sane and rational people would (should?) not go to medical school--even if they have ability, grades, etc. Society, medical schools, and drug and insurance companies have vested nterests in a good supply of physicians and ?other health care providers?, but unfortunately the disadvantages to the individual are little discussed or known except by those ?on the inside? . But then it is too late.
I do and will continue to admire and support those who, in whatever way, honorably participate in medicine but I also believe ?full disclosure? is important to those in the process of deciding to go into medicine. I have no interest in participating in preaching or harangue, but if there are any
who wish to have a conversation, I?d be pleased to participate.
Thanks. ?OleDoc?
=============================================
Doggy
Member
Posts: 41
From:
Registered: Mar
2001
posted April 06, 2001 04:21 PM
As an insider, can you disclose some of the "cons" of a career in medicine? In what ways did it not meet your expectations or ideals?
Thanks.
=============================================
praying4MD
Senior Member
Posts: 69
From: Houston,
Texas USA
Registered: Feb
2001
posted April 06, 2001 04:55 PM
I, too, would be very interested to know why you feel so disillusioned with medicine (if I have interpreted your post correctly). Could you tell us the cons as, obviously, you are someone with much more insight and experience than we have. Any thoughts of yours would be appreciated. Thanks.
=============================================
dfleis
Senior Member
Posts: 52
From:
Gainesville, FL
USA
Registered: Dec
2000
posted April 06, 2001 05:52 PM
My father is an MD... and unfortunately we've experienced more downs in the career of medicine than ups. I'm talking in terms of economics, physical and mental wear and tear,
and the uncertainty of basically working for an insurance company.
.... or about dealing with patients who are hooked on drugs and only go to the doctor to refill; then the problems that occur after the doctor has to expel them from the practice...
.... or the patients who basically have the doctor's words travel into the void, only to return a week later and complain that the symptoms are getting worse....
.. or about working for an HMO that sees patients as #s instead of individuals. This is particularly disturbing because
1) the doctor is basically coerced into seeing a certain amount of patients per hour,
which leads to 2) the quality of care for the patient drops, which leads to 3) the doctor will have his ass nailed by a malpractice suit, which leads to 4) the price of malpractice insurance goes up for all the
doctors, which leads to 5) a battle, instead of a relationship, between some patients who are hoping to get rich from their doctors visits and the doctor himself. (This one, fortunately we did not experience)
My life has revolved around medicine, because my father has been consumed, as all doctors are, by the profession. I hear about the horror stories of his colleagues and friends, and I always feared that something like that would happen to my father (getting burnt out, for instance). While growing up, my father always made sure I heard about these stories, because he didn't want to give me the one dimensional view of medicine that the world around us sculpted.
I'm sure 'OleDoc' may tell you about these stories, and perhaps it would be good for some of you who are more distant from some of the realities of your future profession.
Let me tell you, though, after all his... there's nothing I would rather do in my life than being a doctor. The only reason why I've bothered writing this is because there may
be one or two of you that are scared of some of these horror stories.I'm just going to tell you that I've lived through a share of these "horror stories" .....
I can't wait until I'm there, myself.
=============================================
OleDoc
Member
Posts: 2
From:
Registered: Apr
2001
posted April 07, 2001 12:54 PM
In reply to dfleis, doggy, and pray4MD
First, thanks ?dfleis? for your note. If you know the ropes and think medicine is for you - go for it. I certainly wish you every success and know society wants and needs
doctors. Your true comments are true to life and should be known and carefully considered by anyone going into medicine. You do not exaggerate. However, the 44 year old pediatrician husband of my niece (his father was also a doctor) recently said ?I?ve had enough? and quit.
A few thoughts from the other end of the line.
Undergraduate school -- Medical school folklore to the contrary, in the final analysis it is the GPA that gets you into medical school because there are plenty of ?well rounded? applicants with interesting hobbies or family histories. This fact results in a serious tilt toward sciences, little time for the humanities, and the chase for a high GPA. Is this a ?well
rounded? education? And then think of the games played, work done, and time spent in just getting admitted and especially if you want to ?get into a good school? -- as if there is not more in any school than
anyone can absorb.
Medical school -- regardless of your ability, there will be an almost unbelievable increase in the work load and in the abilities of your fellow classmates. Most who are admitted will graduate. Partly because the schools will not admit to the inexactness of the selection process and partly because most medical students are both smart and hard workers. Those rejected may be unjustly
labeled as ?failures?.
Residency -- The stakes rise again. You again play the game. Not just any residency, but a ?really good? one. One with a name, reputation ! Another 4-8 years and, according to friends and relatives, you are ?still in school and do not have a job?.
Post residency -- You must now become board certified. Yes, you are an M.D. but only tenatively acceptable to most hospitals, insurance companies, government agencies, and employers. Sort of a ?non-entity? until you get another piece of paper.
Post board certification -- after about 10 years (varies with specialty) you will be required to be ?re-certified? or you lose that piece of paper and you ability to work
at your profession. ( Or should we say, ?remain employed?). And so, every ten years for the rest of your life.
These are only the educational wickets that you will live with. They do represent significant ability, accomplisment, and a lot of work, but only permit you to try to do
more work to ?put bread on the table? and is understood and appreciated only by your fellow doctors.
Meanwhile, your relatively relaxed college classmate may be the president of a hospital company and just been given a $450,000 bonus on top of his $500,000 yearly salary and $13 million in stock options. [numbers from today?s news]
And I have not mentioned the relative position of the physician in society today, the economics of medicine nor related more of what ?dfleis? calls the ?horror stories?.
Priests serve a useful function in society but not every one is cut out for the job. Maybe something ?just does not compute??
I?ll very much appreciate comments.
OleDoc
=============================================
kimberlicox
Senior Member
Posts: 778
From: California
Registered: Apr
2000
posted April 07, 2001 01:29 PM
quote:
Originally posted by OleDoc:
Another 4-8 years and, according to friends and
relatives, you are ?still in school and do not have a
job?.
Ha Ha...have you been talking to my family Ole Doc?
#############################################
In reply to dfleis, doggy, and pray4MD
First, thanks ?dfleis? for your note. If you know the ropes and think medicine is for you - go for it.
I certainly wish you every success and know society wants and needs doctors. Your true
comments are true to life and should be known and carefully considered by anyone going into
medicine. You do not exaggerate. However, the 44 year old pediatrician husband of my niece
(his father was also a doctor) recently said ?I?ve had enough? and quit.
A few thoughts from the other end of the line.
Undergraduate school -- Medical school folklore to the contrary, in the final analysis it is the GPA
that gets you into medical school because there are plenty of ?well rounded? applicants with
interesting hobbies or family histories. This fact results in a serious tilt toward sciences, little
time for the humanities, and the chase for a high GPA. Is this a ?well rounded? education?
And then think of the games played, work done, and time spent in just getting admitted and
especially if you want to ?get into a good school? -- as if there is not more in any school than
anyone can absorb.
Medical school -- regardless of your ability, there will be an almost unbelievable increase in the
work load and in the abilities of your fellow classmates. Most who are admitted will graduate.
Partly because the schools will not admit to the inexactness of the selection process and partly
because most medical students are both smart and hard workers. Those rejected may be
unjustly labeled as ?failures?.
Residency -- The stakes rise again. You again play the game. Not just any residency, but a
?really good? one. One with a name, reputation ! Another 4-8 years and, according to friends
and relatives, you are ?still in school and do not have a job?.
Post residency -- You must now become board certified. Yes, you are an M.D. but only tenatively
acceptable to most hospitals, insurance companies, government agencies, and employers. Sort
of a ?non-entity? until you get another piece of paper.
Post board certification -- after about 10 years (varies with specialty) you will be required to be
?re-certified? or you lose that piece of paper and you ability to work at your profession. ( Or
should we say, ?remain employed?). And so, every ten years for the rest of your life.
These are only the educational wickets that you will live with. They do represent significant
ability, accomplisment, and a lot of work, but only permit you to try to do more work to ?put
bread on the table? and is understood and appreciated only by your fellow doctors. Meanwhile,
your relatively relaxed college classmate may be the president of a hospital company and just
been given a $450,000 bonus on top of his $500,000 yearly salary and $13 million in stock
options. [numbers from today?s news]
And I have not mentioned the relative position of the physician in society today, the economics of
medicine nor related more of what ?dfleis? calls the ?horror stories?.
Priests serve a useful function in society but not every one is cut out for the job. Maybe
something ?just does not compute??
I?ll very much appreciate comments.
OleDoc
======================================================
To ? kimberlecox? -- aha! Sounds as if it rang a bell !
To ?oscar505?
Why are so many people competing to get into medical school? Maybe that is an opening for
some comment about the position of the physician in society today. Historically physicians have
had a place of honor and respect in society. They often were the better educated people, they
were honorable, and they generally tried to help the people with whom they had contact. This is
still true today in my experience. It is this ?hold over? view of the world that still brings people to
medicine. The young ?physician to be? says, ?Even if all around me are corrupt, I will stand for
right, I will selflessness, I will be caring !!? And in most case that is a very genuine commitment.
But times have changed. Society has changed. Science marches on!
Only within the past 75-100 years could a person consulting a physician have a chance that the
course of his illness could be significantly changed. With the very real advances of medicine in
recent years, expectations have advanced even more rapidly and, as a result, there is much
frustration and anger when the expected cure is not achieved. This leads to poor patient
relations, claims of malpractice, anger about costs, etc. Today?s reality is that as ?dfleis? points
out above ?it?s a jungle out there?. Regardless of what area or community you work in the
physicians will usually be thought of in derisive terms as being ?uncaring, golf-playing, and
interested only in money?, etc,etc.
One of the sharpest, hardest working and most conscientious internists I know said in jest ?the
public expects only three things from medicine: Eternal Life, with full sexual vigor, free? There is
wisdom in that quip and current expectations are closer than many like admit. The
medical/scientific community will not say so but the obvious result of ?stamping out? heart
disease, cancer, lung disease, degenerative disorders, etc, etc is something approaching eternal
life. Unrealistic expectations, prematurely and unconsciously assumed, result in much very deep
anger often directed toward the closest medical person around--the doctor, or the nurse.
The ?Mother Teresa?s? of the world may be able to accept this, and should be honored for doing
so. But ?lesser mortals? may not choose to spend their life in such a environment. That is why I
am writing this and why 50% of the currently practicing physicians do not recommend medicine
to their children. It not a matter of being a Luddite. It is not about whether I am disillusioned it.
It is about whether those who think medicine is for them will be disillusioned. It is about
responsibility to individuals rather than amorphous society. It is a matter of telling both sides of
the story. It is about ?informed consent? as the lawyers would say.
To ?Methuselah?
I don?t have a lot of stories in this area. Close to home, I mentioned my niece?s husband who
quit, moved to Hawaii and started planting coconut palms. Says after a while he may work in an
ER.
The internist mentioned above (easy going, sharp as a tack, thorough, kind, hard working,
patient) eventually went for a MBA and planned to get out of clinical medicine. Some who have
been in clinical practice leave for administrative jobs, shift work in the E.R.(a brief period of
terror traded for continuing patient care responsibilities perhaps ? ), Business school or Law
School. There are not a lot options without going back to school and so many are obliged to
stay. What options does a pre-med have even immediately after graduating with various
combinations of Major/Minors in Chemistry, Biology and Physics? As to how they have done
financially. Only with a streak of luck and great frugality can a physician ?retire? at age forty. The
amount of debt that some recent have on leaving school graduates is staggering. There are very
few out in the real world before age 33-35.
So they stay. And look for an option. Sadly, it is not the few ?ner do wells? in medicine who want
to opt out, it?s some of those with the highest standards and ability. Thanks for your news
report. My 50% number above was from a survey of the American College of Physicians several
years ago.
Thanks. I welcome comments.
===========================================
Why go to medical school? What are the pro?s and con?s? Now, 50+ years since high school and
after 32 years in surgical practice, I?m convinced there are valid reasons why sane and rational people would (should?) not go to medical school--even if they have ability, grades, etc. Society, medical schools, and drug and insurance companies have vested nterests in a good supply of physicians and ?other health care providers?, but unfortunately the disadvantages to the individual are little discussed or known except by those ?on the inside? . But then it is too late.
I do and will continue to admire and support those who, in whatever way, honorably participate in medicine but I also believe ?full disclosure? is important to those in the process of deciding to go into medicine. I have no interest in participating in preaching or harangue, but if there are any
who wish to have a conversation, I?d be pleased to participate.
Thanks. ?OleDoc?
=============================================
Doggy
Member
Posts: 41
From:
Registered: Mar
2001
posted April 06, 2001 04:21 PM
As an insider, can you disclose some of the "cons" of a career in medicine? In what ways did it not meet your expectations or ideals?
Thanks.
=============================================
praying4MD
Senior Member
Posts: 69
From: Houston,
Texas USA
Registered: Feb
2001
posted April 06, 2001 04:55 PM
I, too, would be very interested to know why you feel so disillusioned with medicine (if I have interpreted your post correctly). Could you tell us the cons as, obviously, you are someone with much more insight and experience than we have. Any thoughts of yours would be appreciated. Thanks.
=============================================
dfleis
Senior Member
Posts: 52
From:
Gainesville, FL
USA
Registered: Dec
2000
posted April 06, 2001 05:52 PM
My father is an MD... and unfortunately we've experienced more downs in the career of medicine than ups. I'm talking in terms of economics, physical and mental wear and tear,
and the uncertainty of basically working for an insurance company.
.... or about dealing with patients who are hooked on drugs and only go to the doctor to refill; then the problems that occur after the doctor has to expel them from the practice...
.... or the patients who basically have the doctor's words travel into the void, only to return a week later and complain that the symptoms are getting worse....
.. or about working for an HMO that sees patients as #s instead of individuals. This is particularly disturbing because
1) the doctor is basically coerced into seeing a certain amount of patients per hour,
which leads to 2) the quality of care for the patient drops, which leads to 3) the doctor will have his ass nailed by a malpractice suit, which leads to 4) the price of malpractice insurance goes up for all the
doctors, which leads to 5) a battle, instead of a relationship, between some patients who are hoping to get rich from their doctors visits and the doctor himself. (This one, fortunately we did not experience)
My life has revolved around medicine, because my father has been consumed, as all doctors are, by the profession. I hear about the horror stories of his colleagues and friends, and I always feared that something like that would happen to my father (getting burnt out, for instance). While growing up, my father always made sure I heard about these stories, because he didn't want to give me the one dimensional view of medicine that the world around us sculpted.
I'm sure 'OleDoc' may tell you about these stories, and perhaps it would be good for some of you who are more distant from some of the realities of your future profession.
Let me tell you, though, after all his... there's nothing I would rather do in my life than being a doctor. The only reason why I've bothered writing this is because there may
be one or two of you that are scared of some of these horror stories.I'm just going to tell you that I've lived through a share of these "horror stories" .....
I can't wait until I'm there, myself.
=============================================
OleDoc
Member
Posts: 2
From:
Registered: Apr
2001
posted April 07, 2001 12:54 PM
In reply to dfleis, doggy, and pray4MD
First, thanks ?dfleis? for your note. If you know the ropes and think medicine is for you - go for it. I certainly wish you every success and know society wants and needs
doctors. Your true comments are true to life and should be known and carefully considered by anyone going into medicine. You do not exaggerate. However, the 44 year old pediatrician husband of my niece (his father was also a doctor) recently said ?I?ve had enough? and quit.
A few thoughts from the other end of the line.
Undergraduate school -- Medical school folklore to the contrary, in the final analysis it is the GPA that gets you into medical school because there are plenty of ?well rounded? applicants with interesting hobbies or family histories. This fact results in a serious tilt toward sciences, little time for the humanities, and the chase for a high GPA. Is this a ?well
rounded? education? And then think of the games played, work done, and time spent in just getting admitted and especially if you want to ?get into a good school? -- as if there is not more in any school than
anyone can absorb.
Medical school -- regardless of your ability, there will be an almost unbelievable increase in the work load and in the abilities of your fellow classmates. Most who are admitted will graduate. Partly because the schools will not admit to the inexactness of the selection process and partly because most medical students are both smart and hard workers. Those rejected may be unjustly
labeled as ?failures?.
Residency -- The stakes rise again. You again play the game. Not just any residency, but a ?really good? one. One with a name, reputation ! Another 4-8 years and, according to friends and relatives, you are ?still in school and do not have a job?.
Post residency -- You must now become board certified. Yes, you are an M.D. but only tenatively acceptable to most hospitals, insurance companies, government agencies, and employers. Sort of a ?non-entity? until you get another piece of paper.
Post board certification -- after about 10 years (varies with specialty) you will be required to be ?re-certified? or you lose that piece of paper and you ability to work
at your profession. ( Or should we say, ?remain employed?). And so, every ten years for the rest of your life.
These are only the educational wickets that you will live with. They do represent significant ability, accomplisment, and a lot of work, but only permit you to try to do
more work to ?put bread on the table? and is understood and appreciated only by your fellow doctors.
Meanwhile, your relatively relaxed college classmate may be the president of a hospital company and just been given a $450,000 bonus on top of his $500,000 yearly salary and $13 million in stock options. [numbers from today?s news]
And I have not mentioned the relative position of the physician in society today, the economics of medicine nor related more of what ?dfleis? calls the ?horror stories?.
Priests serve a useful function in society but not every one is cut out for the job. Maybe something ?just does not compute??
I?ll very much appreciate comments.
OleDoc
=============================================
kimberlicox
Senior Member
Posts: 778
From: California
Registered: Apr
2000
posted April 07, 2001 01:29 PM
quote:
Originally posted by OleDoc:
Another 4-8 years and, according to friends and
relatives, you are ?still in school and do not have a
job?.
Ha Ha...have you been talking to my family Ole Doc?
#############################################
In reply to dfleis, doggy, and pray4MD
First, thanks ?dfleis? for your note. If you know the ropes and think medicine is for you - go for it.
I certainly wish you every success and know society wants and needs doctors. Your true
comments are true to life and should be known and carefully considered by anyone going into
medicine. You do not exaggerate. However, the 44 year old pediatrician husband of my niece
(his father was also a doctor) recently said ?I?ve had enough? and quit.
A few thoughts from the other end of the line.
Undergraduate school -- Medical school folklore to the contrary, in the final analysis it is the GPA
that gets you into medical school because there are plenty of ?well rounded? applicants with
interesting hobbies or family histories. This fact results in a serious tilt toward sciences, little
time for the humanities, and the chase for a high GPA. Is this a ?well rounded? education?
And then think of the games played, work done, and time spent in just getting admitted and
especially if you want to ?get into a good school? -- as if there is not more in any school than
anyone can absorb.
Medical school -- regardless of your ability, there will be an almost unbelievable increase in the
work load and in the abilities of your fellow classmates. Most who are admitted will graduate.
Partly because the schools will not admit to the inexactness of the selection process and partly
because most medical students are both smart and hard workers. Those rejected may be
unjustly labeled as ?failures?.
Residency -- The stakes rise again. You again play the game. Not just any residency, but a
?really good? one. One with a name, reputation ! Another 4-8 years and, according to friends
and relatives, you are ?still in school and do not have a job?.
Post residency -- You must now become board certified. Yes, you are an M.D. but only tenatively
acceptable to most hospitals, insurance companies, government agencies, and employers. Sort
of a ?non-entity? until you get another piece of paper.
Post board certification -- after about 10 years (varies with specialty) you will be required to be
?re-certified? or you lose that piece of paper and you ability to work at your profession. ( Or
should we say, ?remain employed?). And so, every ten years for the rest of your life.
These are only the educational wickets that you will live with. They do represent significant
ability, accomplisment, and a lot of work, but only permit you to try to do more work to ?put
bread on the table? and is understood and appreciated only by your fellow doctors. Meanwhile,
your relatively relaxed college classmate may be the president of a hospital company and just
been given a $450,000 bonus on top of his $500,000 yearly salary and $13 million in stock
options. [numbers from today?s news]
And I have not mentioned the relative position of the physician in society today, the economics of
medicine nor related more of what ?dfleis? calls the ?horror stories?.
Priests serve a useful function in society but not every one is cut out for the job. Maybe
something ?just does not compute??
I?ll very much appreciate comments.
OleDoc
======================================================
To ? kimberlecox? -- aha! Sounds as if it rang a bell !
To ?oscar505?
Why are so many people competing to get into medical school? Maybe that is an opening for
some comment about the position of the physician in society today. Historically physicians have
had a place of honor and respect in society. They often were the better educated people, they
were honorable, and they generally tried to help the people with whom they had contact. This is
still true today in my experience. It is this ?hold over? view of the world that still brings people to
medicine. The young ?physician to be? says, ?Even if all around me are corrupt, I will stand for
right, I will selflessness, I will be caring !!? And in most case that is a very genuine commitment.
But times have changed. Society has changed. Science marches on!
Only within the past 75-100 years could a person consulting a physician have a chance that the
course of his illness could be significantly changed. With the very real advances of medicine in
recent years, expectations have advanced even more rapidly and, as a result, there is much
frustration and anger when the expected cure is not achieved. This leads to poor patient
relations, claims of malpractice, anger about costs, etc. Today?s reality is that as ?dfleis? points
out above ?it?s a jungle out there?. Regardless of what area or community you work in the
physicians will usually be thought of in derisive terms as being ?uncaring, golf-playing, and
interested only in money?, etc,etc.
One of the sharpest, hardest working and most conscientious internists I know said in jest ?the
public expects only three things from medicine: Eternal Life, with full sexual vigor, free? There is
wisdom in that quip and current expectations are closer than many like admit. The
medical/scientific community will not say so but the obvious result of ?stamping out? heart
disease, cancer, lung disease, degenerative disorders, etc, etc is something approaching eternal
life. Unrealistic expectations, prematurely and unconsciously assumed, result in much very deep
anger often directed toward the closest medical person around--the doctor, or the nurse.
The ?Mother Teresa?s? of the world may be able to accept this, and should be honored for doing
so. But ?lesser mortals? may not choose to spend their life in such a environment. That is why I
am writing this and why 50% of the currently practicing physicians do not recommend medicine
to their children. It not a matter of being a Luddite. It is not about whether I am disillusioned it.
It is about whether those who think medicine is for them will be disillusioned. It is about
responsibility to individuals rather than amorphous society. It is a matter of telling both sides of
the story. It is about ?informed consent? as the lawyers would say.
To ?Methuselah?
I don?t have a lot of stories in this area. Close to home, I mentioned my niece?s husband who
quit, moved to Hawaii and started planting coconut palms. Says after a while he may work in an
ER.
The internist mentioned above (easy going, sharp as a tack, thorough, kind, hard working,
patient) eventually went for a MBA and planned to get out of clinical medicine. Some who have
been in clinical practice leave for administrative jobs, shift work in the E.R.(a brief period of
terror traded for continuing patient care responsibilities perhaps ? ), Business school or Law
School. There are not a lot options without going back to school and so many are obliged to
stay. What options does a pre-med have even immediately after graduating with various
combinations of Major/Minors in Chemistry, Biology and Physics? As to how they have done
financially. Only with a streak of luck and great frugality can a physician ?retire? at age forty. The
amount of debt that some recent have on leaving school graduates is staggering. There are very
few out in the real world before age 33-35.
So they stay. And look for an option. Sadly, it is not the few ?ner do wells? in medicine who want
to opt out, it?s some of those with the highest standards and ability. Thanks for your news
report. My 50% number above was from a survey of the American College of Physicians several
years ago.
Thanks. I welcome comments.