why must we forego money to become doctors?

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CrimsonKing said:
:thumbup:

Yep. Also, at top undergraduate institutions like MIT, going pre-med is considered "selling out" and being a failure. The true "geniuses" go into start-ups, I-banking, and trading.
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:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:
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You choose to forego money for the privilege of being with people at the most joyous and most agonizing times in their lives and to use your skills and knowledge to help your fellow humanbeings so they remain in good health, to provide them comfort always and cure sometimes when they are sick and suffering, and to be there to assist them when they are laboring to bring a new life into the world. If that's not what you are signing on for, don't apply.
 
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LizzyM said:
You choose to forego money for the privilege of being with people at the most joyous and most agonizing times in their lives and to use your skills and knowledge to help your fellow humanbeings so they remain in good health, to provide them comfort always and cure sometimes when they are sick and suffering, and to be there to assist them when they are laboring to bring a new life into the world. If that's not what you are signing on for, don't apply.
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Nice. I'm keeping this. It helps to put things in perspective once in awhile and you did just that for me. Thanks.
 
LizzyM said:
You choose to forego money for the privilege of being with people at the most joyous and most agonizing times in their lives and to use your skills and knowledge to help your fellow humanbeings so they remain in good health, to provide them comfort always and cure sometimes when they are sick and suffering, and to be there to assist them when they are laboring to bring a new life into the world. If that's not what you are signing on for, don't apply.
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And at the end of the day you're still in the top 5%.
 
some of your responses honestly make me cringe. you are willing to settle for less because you firmly believe in the notion that doctors should not care about money and only do it because they are highly altruistic. last time i checked you cant pay bills with "the goodness of your heart." after 10+ years of schooling, one should expect to be driving a lamborghini with a 1 million+ dollar mansion; not a 250,000 house (that is financed) with a mini van to drive the family around.

maybe i sounded too radical in saying doctors should make millions but the current pay should definitely be higher, definitely not stagnated or lowered.

if physicians could elect to stop working, the whole system would topple and maybe change could be made
 
scene said:
some of your responses honestly make me cringe. you are willing to settle for less because you firmly believe in the notion that doctors should not care about money and only do it because they are highly altruistic. last time i checked you cant pay bills with "the goodness of your heart." after 10+ years of schooling, one should expect to be driving a lamborghini with a 1 million+ dollar mansion; not a 250,000 house (that is financed) with a mini van to drive the family around.

maybe i sounded too radical in saying doctors should make millions but the current pay should definitely be higher, definitely not stagnated or lowered.

if physicians could elect to stop working, the whole system would topple and maybe change could be made
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Maybe those people need new expectations :oops:
 
I think it might be insightful to ask your parents and other older people you are close with about when they got on their feet. That really opened my eyes. A lot of my friends' parents from the latter part of my life are very well off (not extremely rich, but have a 4000+sq foot house, couple nice cars and live in very good areas with great public education). They are mostly in business, law and engineering. Upon asking them when they really got on their feet, paid down their debt except mortgage, felt comfortable financially and with respect to having time for raising their kids... a lot of them said 40. Yes, 40 is when they felt that they finally got on their feet. Remember these are people who are very well off by the age of 55. I feel a lot of physicians will feel like they are comfortable financially by age 40. Im not saying one is more lucrative than the other or easier, and I am not saying they will not be very different experiences, but struggle occurs in many ways for people all backgrounds.
 
EnginrTheFuture said:
I think it might be insightful to ask your parents and other older people you are close with about when they got on their feet. That really opened my eyes. A lot of my friends' parents from the latter part of my life are very well off (not extremely rich, but have a 4000+sq foot house, couple nice cars and live in very good areas with great public education). They are mostly in business, law and engineering. Upon asking them when they really got on their feet, paid down their debt except mortgage, felt comfortable financially and with respect to having time for raising their kids... a lot of them said 40. Yes, 40 is when they felt that they finally got on their feet. Remember these are people who are very well off by the age of 55. I feel a lot of physicians will feel like they are comfortable financially by age 40. Im not saying one is more lucrative than the other or easier, and I am not saying they will not be very different experiences, but struggle occurs in many ways for people all backgrounds.
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:thumbup:
 
This attitude that physicians are martyrs because they spend 10+ years in school and only make a couple hundred thousand dollars a year when they're done is really making me question whether I want to have future physicians as my peer group.

First off, giving up top 1% to be in the top 5% is not sacrifice by any stretch. Get over yourself.

Second, you're not giving up the potential to earn millions as a physician. And until you earn those millions, that's all it ever was, potential. You maintain, and possibly even gain, potential by becoming a physician.

In my opinion, though I'm sure many will disagree, chasing dollars is just about the worst way to go about deciding your career. Unless the career choice is food on the table & security vs no food on the table, go with the more rewarding (to you) choice.
 
Dbate said:
People on here greatly inflate the intelligence of doctors compared to other fields.

It is 10x harder to become and be an investment banker than it is to become a doctor. I go to a HYP school where top banks recruit heavily. My friend who worked for Goldman Sachs said they won't even touch you with less than a 3.8. And after you get the job you work from 9 am to 2 am (and you work alot of weekends). Ibankers are alot smarter than doctors and they work alot harder.

Anyone who assumes otherwise doesn't know what banking work actually entails.
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lol whoa a 3.8? Sh*ts crazy man
 
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Sidereum said:
To be fair, a 3.8 from those schools isn't something to sneeze at.
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I guess someone hasn't heard of Havard's grade inflation policy. They churn out a lot more 4.0 than Yale and MIT, for example.
 
calvnandhobbs68 said:
Yale isn't immune either...30% of their graduating class last year had at least a 3.8.

http://yaledailynews.com/blog/2012/10/11/faculty-scrutinize-grading-trends/

Princeton still gives out As to 40% of the kids in their classes on average.
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I don't want to derail this thread, just provide context to the notion of "grade inflation", but if any average Yale student was placed at the average state school they would ALL have a 3.8+. 60% of the people who go to Yale were either Val or Sal of their class in high school (and 80-90% were in the top 10 people). The average SAT score is 2270 (ACT: 33). So I just consider it fair.

Also, you can't have a 3.8 in any major. They pretty much only want Econ, Physics, Engineering, and Math majors.

The average GPA in majors like Political Science and Gender Studies is what really skews the grade distribution.
 
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Dbate said:
I don't want to derail this thread, just provide context to the notion of "grade inflation", but if any average Yale student was placed at the average state school they would ALL have a 3.8+. 60% of the people who go to Yale were either Val or Sal of their class in high school (and 80-90% were in the top 10 people). The average SAT score is 2270 (ACT: 33). So I just consider it fair.
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True. I doubt that it's because they're "smarter" though. A lot of the kids at my undergrad are just as smart (if not smarter) than kids from my high school who went to HYP. But then again, the people at my undergrad I'm referring to are all 3.8+ and my university here in Houston is a Tier III institution.
 
Dbate said:
I don't want to derail this thread, just provide context to the notion of "grade inflation", but if any average Yale student was placed at the average state school they would ALL have a 3.8+. 60% of the people who go to Yale were either Val or Sal of their class in high school (and 80-90% were in the top 10 people). The average SAT score is 2270 (ACT: 33). So I just consider it fair.

Also, you can't have a 3.8 in any major. They pretty much only want Econ, Physics, Engineering, and Math majors.

The average GPA in majors like Political Science and Gender Studies is what really skews the grade distribution.
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I studied abroad with a group that had a few students from Yale and Cornell and they did no better than the rest of us who went to lower ranked schools. If you go down the USNWR list, you'll find that even schools down into the top 60 have a matriculating class with an average ACT around 30. Not saying that people who go to those schools aren't more studious, but stats wise they are not too far from a kid who goes to a good state school.
 
Dbate said:
People on here greatly inflate the intelligence of doctors compared to other fields.

It is 10x harder to become and be an investment banker than it is to become a doctor. I go to a HYP school where top banks recruit heavily. My friend who worked for Goldman Sachs said they won't even touch you with less than a 3.8. And after you get the job you work from 9 am to 2 am (and you work alot of weekends). Ibankers are alot smarter than doctors and they work alot harder.

Anyone who assumes otherwise doesn't know what banking work actually entails.
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Whoa wait a second...so a person going to the Harvard of IBanks needs to have scores good enough to get into Harvard Med?

Is that seriously your point? We're not all arguing that someone going to Joe's Crab Shack and Medical School is of the same competitive caliber as someone at Goldman. The argument is that the top people in medicine (which nearly everyone on SDN considers themselves to someday be) could do substantially better financially in another field.
 
Bearstronaut said:
Whoa wait a second...so a person going to the Harvard of IBanks needs to have scores good enough to get into Harvard Med?

Is that seriously your point? We're not all arguing that someone going to Joe's Crab Shack and Medical School is of the same competitive caliber as someone at Goldman. The argument is that the top people in medicine (which nearly everyone on SDN considers themselves to someday be) could do substantially better financially in another field.
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It's not just the Harvard of Ibanks. For pretty much any financial firm, you need at least a 3.7. For consulting, they have cut offs of 3.5 for even the lowest firms (below that and they won't even look at your resume). And these places pretty much only recruit at the Ivy League. Say what you will, but it is tough to get top scores in quantitative fields at Ivy league schools.

This chart from Dartmouth with average GPA by major makes that point nicely. It takes alot of smarts to get a 3.7 in majors such as Econ, Physics, Engineering, and Math. Those classes are graded on a curve, so you need to be in the top 10-25% of the class. That is not an easy feat.

Chart: http://www.dartblog.com/assets_c/2012/02/Medians by department.php

And since people like to complain about grade inflation for premeds at Ivy schools, notice that the average GPA of Biology majors in a 3.33. (and it is really hard to be the average person at a school like Dartmouth).

I'm comparing averages to averages. The average Ibanker is alot smarter and alot harder working than the average premedical student. The only people that think otherwise are the people who don't know what it takes to become and be an Ibanker.
 
I'm comparing averages to averages. The average Ibanker is alot smarter and alot harder working than the average premedical student. The only people that think otherwise are the people who don't know what it takes to become and be an Ibanker.
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Sophocles said:
This is completely wrong. I got my series 7 after a month of studying and my 63 after a weekend of studying. It's not that hard and all you need to do is have good people skills to start at a mediocre firm and be somewhat knowledgeable about finances. Obviously if you want to work for Merrill or Goldman you are going to need something more (i.e. an MBA and some good connections). But if I show up to Goldman with a portfolio worth half a billion, they won't turn me down, regardless of my degree and what school I went to.

I'm at a top institution in close proximity to downtown NYC and we have major firms come here all the time to recruit students, as well, and to say that going pre-med is considered "selling out" is completely inaccurate. The "geniuses", at least here, are the ones who do BME and biophysics and then it's the "pre-meds".
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Oh you mean like him?

I'm not saying associate investment bankers don't work like dogs sometimes but I'm not sure who you're brown-nosing for here. You don't know more than anyone else on here who has "some friends" who are analysts or consultants. The difference seems to be that you're really impressed by your financial friends who "tell you that you need a 3.8 for Goldman to even look at you". I, on the other hand, am not as impressed.

http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2012-04-18/a-day-in-the-life-investment-banking-associate
 
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calvnandhobbs68 said:
Oh you mean like him?

I'm not saying associate investment bankers don't work like dogs sometimes but I'm not sure who you're brown-nosing for here. You don't know more than anyone else on here who has "some friends" who are analysts or consultants. The difference seems to be that you're really impressed by your financial friends who "tell you that you need a 3.8 for Goldman to even look at you". I, on the other hand, am not as impressed.

http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2012-04-18/a-day-in-the-life-investment-banking-associate
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Um, no.

I actually work for Undergraduate Career Services at Yale and I review resumes for people going into positions in finance and consulting. And I am actually working for IMS consulting (one of the top healthcare & pharma consulting firms) next year. I went through 30 interviews at top Consulting firms. I know a heck of alot more about it than you.


Fine. Don't be impressed, your opinion doesn't matter. The fact still remains that it is alot tougher to become an average investment banker than to become an average doctor.

You can go to an average college (or even below average) and get a 3.6 and then go to an average med school and still be a doctor. If you were average at any point in your educational career, you would have no shot at becoming an investment banker.

People on here are delusional that they can just go off and get these positions. It requires a huge amount of intelligence and hard work. Stop trying to glorify medicine and pretend like it is harder than every other career. It may help your ego, but it is just wrong.


Side note: Also, that guy went to Columbia. I doubt he's average.
 
Dbate said:
Um, no.

I actually work for Undergraduate Career Services at Yale and I review resumes for people going into positions in finance and consulting. And I am actually working for IMS consulting (one of the top healthcare & pharma consulting firms) next year. I went through 30 interviews at top Consulting firms. I know a heck of alot more about it than you.


Fine. Don't be impressed, your opinion doesn't matter. The fact still remains that it is alot tougher to become an average investment banker than to become an average doctor.

You can go to an average college (or even below average) and get a 3.6 and then go to an average med school and still be a doctor. If you were average at any point in your educational career, you would have no shot at becoming an investment banker.

People on here are delusional that they can just go off and get these positions. It requires a huge amount of intelligence and hard work. Stop trying to glorify medicine and pretend like it is harder than every other career. It may help your ego, but it is just wrong.


Side note: Also, that guy went to Columbia. I doubt he's average.
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Wow that's weird you somehow forgot to mention this vast expertise in your first post.

I go to a HYP school where top banks recruit heavily. My friend who worked for Goldman Sachs said they won't even touch you with less than a 3.8. And after you get the job you work from 9 am to 2 am (and you work alot of weekends). Ibankers are alot smarter than doctors and they work alot harder.
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Kinda strange that it went from "my friend who worked at Goldman told me" to "I review resumes for people going into positions in finance and consulting, am working for IMS consulting and went through 30 interviews".

Anyway, if this is true then it's coming from a guy who's clearly pretty vested in the consulting industry. Who is telling others that i-bankers and consultants smarter than physicians. Who then gets mad when that is disputed and tells others to stop thinking that physicians are so special.

Pot calling the kettle black anyone?
 
scene said:
sure doctors are usually paid 100,000+ depending on the specialty but when you juxtapose these figures with others (CEOs, investment bankers, business owners, etc) these figures simply pale in comparison. this disparity is exacerbated when you look at how doctors spend 10+ years in schooling and end up with a monolithic amounts of debt in addition to state accreditation fees. Then one must consider the amount of hours dedicated each day versus others and reasons why people go into medicine begin to fade into the background.

I want to be the dude making m/billions, not quarter million(s).
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Because in medicine, 300k+ a year is doable.
As for business, let me guarantee you that you will never become a CEO/successful investor or business owner. :)

you will however work lots of hours and kiss ass for a promotion to a 60k/year job from a 45k one, but if you fail to get it, back on unemployment you go!
 
LizzyM said:
You choose to forego money for the privilege of being with people at the most joyous and most agonizing times in their lives and to use your skills and knowledge to help your fellow humanbeings so they remain in good health, to provide them comfort always and cure sometimes when they are sick and suffering, and to be there to assist them when they are laboring to bring a new life into the world. If that's not what you are signing on for, don't apply.
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Medicine is the most realistic way to have a high income. No one's giving up money in an overall sense.
That being said, yea you're right. It's essential to want to have that goal, but humans will ALWAYS think of themselves first. It's always about satisfaction if not about money, and in this case satisfaction is coming from appraisal from strangers.
 
calvnandhobbs68 said:
Wow that's weird you somehow forgot to mention this vast expertise in your first post.


Kinda strange that it went from "my friend who worked at Goldman told me" to "I review resumes for people going into positions in finance and consulting, am working for IMS consulting and went through 30 interviews".

Anyway, if this is true then it's coming from a guy who's clearly pretty vested in the consulting industry. Who is telling others that i-bankers and consultants smarter than physicians. Who then gets mad when that is disputed and tells others to stop thinking that physicians are so special.

Pot calling the kettle black anyone?
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Whatever makes you feel better. But in the future, refrain from talking about things you know little about.
 
KnuxNole said:
Just out of curiosity, when you say that folks in medicine can be the top percentage in law due to work ethic, does this take into account people that might be terrible at forming sound arguments or other parts of law that play on certain skills? I assume someone can work hard to improve their logic skills and arguing abilities I suppose...
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Having done well in law and using a lot of the same skillets in medicine, I stand by my assertion. Law isn't about latent aptitude. 90% of those argumentative types who are told that they "would make a good lawyer" actually wouldn't. Law is 50% about being smart and able to think on your feet, and keep your head together when the crap hits the fan, and 49% about having the work ethic and drive to log long hours and improve your skills. Only about 1% has to do with inherent logic/abilities -- and most of that can be learned or is already possessed by your average med students. Being able to take a long list if differential diagnosis and figure out tests to pare down that list to something you are going to treat takes a lot more logical thinking than putting together the typical legal argument.

Being argumentative isn't a skill coveted in the legal community, and those that are tend to be relegated to situational negotiations (ie if you wanted your Lawyer to go in and blow up a deal you decided was not longer desirable). Every big firm has one uber smart version of these guys -- but the rest tend to wash out of law pretty quickly.
 
misc4lyfe said:
Because in medicine, 300k+ a year is doable.
As for business, let me guarantee you that you will never become a CEO/successful investor or business owner. :)

you will however work lots of hours and kiss ass for a promotion to a 60k/year job from a 45k one, but if you fail to get it, back on unemployment you go!
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300k+ is at least 40% above the average income, and so no, for most people going into medicine it won't be "doable". You have to get into one of the competitive specialties to have good odds at this kind of income -- most won't. Don't go to med school expecting this. Plus you probably will rack up $200k in debt and defer you income a decade while missing this lofty target.

Your odds aren't much worse in many other fields if you are smart. And the ceiling is much higher. And you can start earning earlier. And without the debt. It's kind of a no brainer. Which is why it's sad that premeds keep getting hung up by money earned by specialists in certain fields and miss the notion that you could just as easily end up a pathologist looking for a job, or a pediatrician earning $130k per year while trying to service your $200k student loan debt, with no significant income until you are 7 years out of college. Its grade school math, guys. If you are chasing the money the time value of money, high debt, And declining reimbursements make the dollars you think you see at the other end things you really have to take with a grain of salt. It's really a mirage.
 
Dbate said:
People on here greatly inflate the intelligence of doctors compared to other fields.

It is 10x harder to become and be an investment banker than it is to become a doctor. I go to a HYP school where top banks recruit heavily. My friend who worked for Goldman Sachs said they won't even touch you with less than a 3.8. And after you get the job you work from 9 am to 2 am (and you work alot of weekends). Ibankers are alot smarter than doctors and they work alot harder.

Anyone who assumes otherwise doesn't know what banking work actually entails.
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I worked in banking and can tell you pretty much everything you said is complete and utter crap
 
Law2Doc said:
300k+ is at least 40% above the average income, and so no, for most people going into medicine it won't be "doable". You have to get into one of the competitive specialties to have good odds at this kind of income -- most won't. Don't go to med school expecting this. Plus you probably will rack up $200k in debt and defer you income a decade while missing this lofty target.

Your odds aren't much worse in many other fields if you are smart. And the ceiling is much higher. And you can start earning earlier. And without the debt. It's kind of a no brainer. Which is why it's sad that premeds keep getting hung up by money earned by specialists in certain fields and miss the notion that you could just as easily end up a pathologist looking for a job, or a pediatrician earning $130k per year while trying to service your $200k student loan debt, with no significant income until you are 7 years out of college. Its grade school math, guys. If you are chasing the money the time value of money, high debt, And declining reimbursements make the dollars you think you see at the other end things you really have to take with a grain of salt. It's really a mirage.
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I have parent support and I'm in Canada, my debt will be relatively low. And it's possible to make 400k+ here even in primary care if you have efficient clinical skills. But overall, everyone's situation varies.
You're more likely to be financially strong as a doctor in an overall sense than you are even landing a decent paying job in a decent location. That's the reality.
 
darkjedi said:
I worked in banking and can tell you pretty much everything you said is complete and utter crap
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orly.jpg




Sell side? Buy Side? Equities? Hedge? Banking is broad. Investment Banking is narrow.
 
Dbate said:
Whatever makes you feel better. But in the future, refrain from talking about things you know little about.
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How about you stop being a hypocrite and follow some of your own advice? Considering you have absolutely zero idea of what it's like to be a med student (let alone, a physician), kindly STFU and "refrain from talking about things you know little [in this case, nothing] about."

Before you retort back with youmad.jpg, I ain't mad. I love med school and I'm perfectly content with what I'll make in the future (though I'd always be happy with more!), even with the $200,000+ debt I'll be graduating with.
 
krafty934 said:
How about you stop being a hypocrite and follow some of your own advice? Considering you have absolutely zero idea of what it's like to be a med student (let alone, a physician), kindly STFU and "refrain from talking about things you know little [in this case, nothing] about."

Before you retort back with youmad.jpg, I ain't mad. I love med school and I'm perfectly content with what I'll make in the future (though I'd always be happy with more!), even with the $200,000+ debt I'll be graduating with.
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137789328_Kobe_U_Mad_xlarge.jpeg
 
What's the debate here? Medicine is the most realistic and likely path for a high income.
 
misc4lyfe said:
What's the debate here? Medicine is the most realistic and likely path for a high income.
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That's really true. Trolling aside, medicine is the most secure path and even if salaries were slashed by 50% doctors would still be making between 80K-100K.

According to every list of the highest paid professionals, physicians dominate. So, despite the high cost of schooling and time invested, medicine is still a lucrative career.

And in the worst case scenario, individuals who are more sensitive to financial returns will not pursue medicine. I don't think that is a bad outcome.
 
Dbate said:
That's really true. Trolling aside, medicine is the most secure path and even if salaries were slashed by 50% doctors would still be making between 80K-100K.

According to every list of the highest paid professionals, physicians dominate. So, despite the high cost of schooling and time invested, medicine is still a lucrative career.

And in the worst case scenario, individuals who are more sensitive to financial returns will not pursue medicine. I don't think that is a bad outcome.
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They'll be kissing ass for a promotion to a 60k/year job :laugh:
 
Law2Doc said:
Your odds aren't much worse in many other fields if you are smart. And the ceiling is much higher. And you can start earning earlier. And without the debt. It's kind of a no brainer. Which is why it's sad that premeds keep getting hung up by money earned by specialists in certain fields and miss the notion that you could just as easily end up a pathologist looking for a job, or a pediatrician earning $130k per year while trying to service your $200k student loan debt, with no significant income until you are 7 years out of college. Its grade school math, guys. If you are chasing the money the time value of money, high debt, And declining reimbursements make the dollars you think you see at the other end things you really have to take with a grain of salt. It's really a mirage.
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Have you ever worked at a job that doesn't require a professional degree? You have a severely warped view of compensation in the real world.
 
darkjedi said:
I worked in banking and can tell you pretty much everything you said is complete and utter crap
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How much did you make as an analyst? We're talking about large banks that pay first year analysts $100k/year+ and have clear pathways to associate and VP assuming one makes the cut...not boutique banks with $50k/year total comp. Bulge bracket banks definitely recruit almost exclusively from Ivies, Stanford, and MIT.
 
circulus vitios said:
Have you ever worked at a job that doesn't require a professional degree? You have a severely warped view of compensation in the real world.
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I've done well in many fields. I'm one of the small minority on this thread who actually had " real world" careers before med school. I'm suggesting that those with the brain power to do well in medicine would too. Not sure why that's controversial except that some people need to justify their decision of medicine by presuming they'd be failures in everything else. Either do well in medicine or become a bankrupt businessman earning minimum wage. It aint so. And if it really is your lot, then you probably won't fare well in medicine either.
 
obviously the point i am trying to relay is unfathomable to most of you.

why earn 250k when you can earn twice that if not more? do you realize how much hospitals earn when you admit patients (esp government handout supported patients, mostly the elderly)? do you realize how negligible a physician's salary is when compared to everything else? physicians are getting screwed because the executives know a large majority of them are willing to work for less because they can use the whole excuse of "you dont need the money, a doctor loves treating people whether the money is adequate or not (see: LizzyM's naive comment)."
 
misc4lyfe said:
What's the debate here? Medicine is the most realistic and likely path for a high income.
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No debate at all -- you are just ignoring important components of the discussion to get to your conclusion. If you ignore the time value of money, high debt, and the 50% that don't reach those above average numbers that are being thrown about, sure, medicine is "realistic" path to high income. But you really can't ignore those. a six digit salary in ten years while saddled by six digit debt simply isn't better than getting a decent five digit salary in year one out of college. It's bad math, financial ignorance.

As mentioned there are plenty of doctors earning $150k a year after a decade of school and training, and servicing $200k in debt. if you were doing it for the money and that was your result you'd be pretty unhappy. so yeah, what's the debate.
 
scene said:
physicians are getting screwed because the executives know a large majority of them are willing to work for less because they can use the whole excuse of "you dont need the money, a doctor loves treating people whether the money is adequate or not (see: LizzyM's naive comment)."
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Naive??? Idealistic, perhaps but not naive!
 
scene said:
obviously the point i am trying to relay is unfathomable to most of you.

why earn 250k when you can earn twice that if not more? do you realize how much hospitals earn when you admit patients (esp government handout supported patients, mostly the elderly)? do you realize how negligible a physician's salary is when compared to everything else? physicians are getting screwed because the executives know a large majority of them are willing to work for less because they can use the whole excuse of "you dont need the money, a doctor loves treating people whether the money is adequate or not (see: LizzyM's naive comment)."
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It's ok to think about this kinda stuff, but as long as you aren't actually upset. After all, it's not gonna change(unless you make it your life work to rework physician salaries for the US)
 
Dbate said:
Um, no.

I actually work for Undergraduate Career Services at Yale and I review resumes for people going into positions in finance and consulting. And I am actually working for IMS consulting (one of the top healthcare & pharma consulting firms) next year. I went through 30 interviews at top Consulting firms. I know a heck of alot more about it than you.


Fine. Don't be impressed, your opinion doesn't matter. The fact still remains that it is alot tougher to become an average investment banker than to become an average doctor.

You can go to an average college (or even below average) and get a 3.6 and then go to an average med school and still be a doctor. If you were average at any point in your educational career, you would have no shot at becoming an investment banker.

People on here are delusional that they can just go off and get these positions. It requires a huge amount of intelligence and hard work. Stop trying to glorify medicine and pretend like it is harder than every other career. It may help your ego, but it is just wrong.


Side note: Also, that guy went to Columbia. I doubt he's average.
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I second this. After my consulting interviews, med school interviews were a JOKE. Med school (by numbers) is much easier to get into than finance/ibanking.
 
Law2Doc said:
I've done well in many fields. I'm one of the small minority on this thread who actually had " real world" careers before med school. I'm suggesting that those with the brain power to do well in medicine would too. Not sure why that's controversial except that some people need to justify their decision of medicine by presuming they'd be failures in everything else. Either do well in medicine or become a bankrupt businessman earning minimum wage. It aint so. And if it really is your lot, then you probably won't fare well in medicine either.
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Medical students aren't anything special. Getting an A- average in biology, scoring in the 80th percentile of an exam that tests sophomore level science knowledge, volunteering in a hospital, or working in a research lab as an undergrad lackey aren't remarkable. Medical school is selective but 45% of people who apply still get in. The vast majority of those who get in will be making close to $200k/year even in the least competitive specialties like FM and IM. People who build businesses that clear hundreds of thousands of dollars after expenses are remarkable. Do you think 45% of business owners clear $200k/year? What about 45% of medical school applicants? Or, since you see medical students and physicians as paragons of intelligence and industriousness, do you think that 45% of medical students could build a business that clears $200k...or even $50k a year?
 
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