why must we forego money to become doctors?

[calvnandhobbs68]

Medical students aren't anything special. Getting an A- average in biology, scoring in the 80th percentile of an exam that tests sophomore level science knowledge, volunteering in a hospital, or working in a research lab as an undergrad lackey aren't remarkable. Medical school is selective but 45% of people who apply still get in. The vast majority of those who get in will be making close to $200k/year even in the least competitive specialties like FM and IM. People who build businesses that clear hundreds of thousands of dollars after expenses are remarkable. Do you think 45% of business owners clear $200k/year? What about 45% of medical school applicants? Or, since you see medical students and physicians as paragons of intelligence and industriousness, do you think that 45% of medical students could build a business that clears $200k...or even $50k a year?

lol someone definitely isn't bitter at this point. I thought it was pretty easy to get into med school bro? Should be no prob to score that 80th percentile on the exam right?

I'm about ready to give up and go with my backup plan. I'm sure I can squeeze out a 30 by my test date but I'm just so sick tired of studying for this worthless, idiotic exam and all of it's ******ed tricks and nuances, and to a greater extent I'm also dreading the stupid pointless bull**** I'll have to put up with before I can even submit an application: kissing asses for LORs, writing an idiotic personal statement, spending thousands of dollars on applications, etc. I truly hate this process more than life itself and I'm almost hoping I tank the MCAT so I'll have the motivation to do something else with my life.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[circulus vitios]

lol someone definitely isn't bitter at this point. I thought it was pretty easy to get into med school bro? Should be no prob to score that 80th percentile on the exam right?

It's flattering to know that you have a throbbing hard on for me.

I never said I was anything special. I'm just another *******.

 

[yehhhboiii]

lol someone definitely isn't bitter at this point. I thought it was pretty easy to get into med school bro? Should be no prob to score that 80th percentile on the exam right?

It's obvious that med school is easy to get into.

 

[misc4lyfe]

I've done well in many fields. I'm one of the small minority on this thread who actually had " real world" careers before med school. I'm suggesting that those with the brain power to do well in medicine would too. Not sure why that's controversial except that some people need to justify their decision of medicine by presuming they'd be failures in everything else. Either do well in medicine or become a bankrupt businessman earning minimum wage. It aint so. And if it really is your lot, then you probably won't fare well in medicine either.

Not everyone has the skills needed to succeed in the business world. It's not about raw intellectual strength alone, you need the right social skills, luck, connections, and the right mindset. Not everyone has that.

Business has risks and minimal stability. Medicine has low risks and very high stability.

 

[Brigade4Radiant]

I've done well in many fields. I'm one of the small minority on this thread who actually had " real world" careers before med school. I'm suggesting that those with the brain power to do well in medicine would too. Not sure why that's controversial except that some people need to justify their decision of medicine by presuming they'd be failures in everything else. Either do well in medicine or become a bankrupt businessman earning minimum wage. It aint so. And if it really is your lot, then you probably won't fare well in medicine either.

Sorry you are delusional. I highly doubt you've done well in many fields first you think being successful has a linear correlation to brain power. I knew you didn't know what you were talking about when you said that it was easy to make 140k in Law if you have the brain power to get into Medical school.

Here is a comprehensive thread that shows you how that is just not true.
http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3301274

 

[misc4lyfe]

No debate at all -- you are just ignoring important components of the discussion to get to your conclusion. If you ignore the time value of money, high debt, and the 50% that don't reach those above average numbers that are being thrown about, sure, medicine is "realistic" path to high income. But you really can't ignore those. a six digit salary in ten years while saddled by six digit debt simply isn't better than getting a decent five digit salary in year one out of college. It's bad math, financial ignorance.

As mentioned there are plenty of doctors earning $150k a year after a decade of school and training, and servicing $200k in debt. if you were doing it for the money and that was your result you'd be pretty unhappy. so yeah, what's the debate.

Those same doctors making 150k and paying back 200k of debt would be making 50-60k/year and waiting till their 40s before making close to 100k/year.
Anyone who would have been BETTER OFF financially OUTSIDE of medicine, will be making a million a year as a doctor.

Why? Because someone who was going to be successful in business/finance and has the right skills to become rich.. will do so in medicine. There are doctors even in Canada making >2million/year. Highest paid is 6.5 mil. I'm sure it's the same in the US but with even higher numbers (ex. rufmd).

Only difference is that those in business have no stability or fall back, but those in medicine have both.

 

[misc4lyfe]

Naive??? Idealistic, perhaps but not naive!

You only live one life and enjoying it is main priority. Hard to do when you're restricted due to financial concerns.

 

[krps85]

Medical students aren't anything special. Getting an A- average in biology, scoring in the 80th percentile of an exam that tests sophomore level science knowledge, volunteering in a hospital, or working in a research lab as an undergrad lackey aren't remarkable. Medical school is selective but 45% of people who apply still get in. The vast majority of those who get in will be making close to $200k/year even in the least competitive specialties like FM and IM. People who build businesses that clear hundreds of thousands of dollars after expenses are remarkable. Do you think 45% of business owners clear $200k/year? What about 45% of medical school applicants? Or, since you see medical students and physicians as paragons of intelligence and industriousness, do you think that 45% of medical students could build a business that clears $200k...or even $50k a year?

****ing bingo. we like to complain about people like CEOs or wall street quants making more than us, but what we like to ignore is that a lot of them are smart and driven to a degree that makes us medical people look like total dunces (and I'm saying this as a 39 mcat/1600 gre). while there's still a certain subset of us who have the skillset to actually succeed in those fields and make $$, there's also a huuuge chunk of us that wouldn't be able to do anything but bio/chem fields and make <100k if we didn't have the med school route. and not to mention once you get into med school this is still by far the safest route to lower-mid 6 figures.

 

[Brigade4Radiant]

No debate at all -- you are just ignoring important components of the discussion to get to your conclusion. If you ignore the time value of money, high debt, and the 50% that don't reach those above average numbers that are being thrown about, sure, medicine is "realistic" path to high income. But you really can't ignore those. a six digit salary in ten years while saddled by six digit debt simply isn't better than getting a decent five digit salary in year one out of college. It's bad math, financial ignorance.

As mentioned there are plenty of doctors earning $150k a year after a decade of school and training, and servicing $200k in debt. if you were doing it for the money and that was your result you'd be pretty unhappy. so yeah, what's the debate.

You make 5 figures in 4 years in medicine and if you are taking 10 years to be an attending you are most likely in a well paying specialty. In a good year there are only 4000-5000 openings in Law that will give a person $140k starting. Keep in mind you will be saddled with 100k+ in debt and that you will be working in areas that have a high cost of living. Also the averaged debt of medical students is 166k.

 

[SixStringPsych]

You throw out CEO, investment bankers and successful business owners as if every medical student could've been one of those.

Do you understand how difficult and prestigious it is to get to any of those positions? Most wannabe CEOs fizzle out a long time before they reach that position. There is so much luck to some of these positions that even seemingly "destined" people often don't reach that level.

Not only that but there are hundreds of thousands of doctors in the US and may about a few thousand CEOs that earn more than 300k.

Also, CEOs only make that amount of money when they are well into their 40s and 50s so their grind is a lot harder.

Investment banking is thrown out like its just some sort of easy career to get into. Couldn't be further from the truth. Whereas state med school is a guarantee of earning easily 180k+ (if you put in the hours), you really need a top business school to get into IB. IB interviews often has 100 candidates per position. Not to mention analysts work like dogs as well and your job security is horrible.

Doctors are certainly not on the same level as Investment bankers. IB can be compared to a group of elite doctors but not the average.

IB is very different from Doctors in term of personality for the job. They all share the ambition, desire for achievement and hard working characteristics but IB requires dealing with clients, mathematical aptitude and social skills more than doctors do. Doctors need science skills, memorization skills and the tolerance of the medical environment. A lot of people don't like dealing with feces, urine, blood and death on a daily basis.

Yeah, doctors don't need as many social skills as investment bankers do.

 

[KnuxNole]

Doctors still need quite a lot of social skills though.

 

[galaxyx]

You only live one life and enjoying it is main priority. Hard to do when you're restricted due to financial concerns.

You're doing something wrong if you're earning $200k in a relatively stable job market and have financial concerns

 

[Brigade4Radiant]

.

Your odds aren't much worse in many other fields if you are smart. And the ceiling is much higher. And you can start earning earlier. And without the debt.

Doctors are more likely than any other profession to be in the top 1% of wage earners. Also many businesses have a start up cost. Making money is not as easy as you paint it to be.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/15/b...d-portrait-of-the-rich.html?ref=business&_r=0

 

[misc4lyfe]

You're doing something wrong if you're earning $200k in a relatively stable job market and have financial concerns

I was speaking towards the "you should only go into medicine if you'd do it for free!!" type of people and believe me I've heard it... literally.

 

[TheWeeIceMan]

I've pretty confident that I'll make more in my lifetime as a doctor than any other career path that is available to me. I don't have the pedigree for ibanking/consulting, I doubt I have the business sense to make it big in that arena, and I sure as hell am not doing law in this market. Does that make it the right choice for me? Of course not, but I guess it's one less thing for me to be bitter about.

 

[circulus vitios]

Yeah, doctors don't need as many social skills as investment bankers do.

Last time I checked, awkward IMG attendings with thick accents still made the same amount of money as smooth talking, All American AMG attendings.

 

[KnuxNole]

Last time I checked, awkward IMG attendings with thick accents still made the same amount of money as smooth talking, All American AMG attendings.

Where did you find this info?

 

[circulus vitios]

Where did you find this info?

Any teaching hospital in a rural or under-served area.

 

[Renaissance Man]

Last time I checked, awkward IMG attendings with thick accents still made the same amount of money as smooth talking, All American AMG attendings.

Let me get this straight, you have seen the pay stubs of what you deem "awkward" foreign doctors and "All American" doctors and are now able to conclude that social skills aren't necessary in medicine because they make the same amount...?

 

[misc4lyfe]

Last time I checked, awkward IMG attendings with thick accents still made the same amount of money as smooth talking, All American AMG attendings.

highly doubt this is actually true on a wide scale.

 

[0TopCat0]

Let me get this straight, you have seen the pay stubs of what you deem "awkward" foreign doctors and "All American" doctors and are now able to conclude that social skills aren't necessary in medicine because they make the same amount...?

why would they be paid any differently??

 

[KnuxNole]

Any teaching hospital in a rural or under-served area.

Do you know if they are at the same skill level, work the same hours, bill exactly the same?

On another note, I hope noone thinks that social skills aren't necessary. Unless they wanna get laughed out of a hospital

 

[circulus vitios]

highly doubt this is actually true on a wide scale.

Maybe in a private practice setting but if you work for a hospital I'm sure it's absolutely true, even more so in under-served areas where patients have no choice.

 

[Law2Doc]

You make 5 figures in 4 years in medicine and if you are taking 10 years to be an attending you are most likely in a well paying specialty. In a good year there are only 4000-5000 openings in Law that will give a person $140k starting. Keep in mind you will be saddled with 100k+ in debt and that you will be working in areas that have a high cost of living. Also the averaged debt of medical students is 166k.

Again, my point (echoed by Atul Gawande and many other pundits) is that someone with the ability to succeed in med school will be within this 4000-5000. We never have to look beyond this grouping for our comparison. Having actually lived this life and having seen the respective abilities of my classmates/colleagues on both paths I would concur. So that is the apples to apples comparison. and yes, if you start earning $140 k three years out if college, with significantly less debt burden (as law school tends to be cheaper and is a year shorter) you are making more in today's dollars than the guy who makes $200 k five years after that. And that's ignoring things like healthy year end bonuses (common in law, rare in medicine) raises, etc. In medicine you may just as easily end up in high cost of living locations -- so that is probably a wash. The big law firms in Cleveland generally pay similar to the big firms in Manhattan, so it's not the kind of geographic discrepancy you suggest. Average debt goes up every year -- for a premed now, the figure will probably be closer to $200k.

 

[LizzyM]

You only live one life and enjoying it is main priority. Hard to do when you're restricted due to financial concerns.

Philosophers ask, "what is the good life?" They might ask as well if "enjoying life" is or should be one's priority. The question also arises as to whether material wealth, above a certain point needed for one's basic needs, increases one's enjoyment of life. I always find it interesting when a youngster who has come back from abroad comments with amazement that people who have so little seem so happy. Some things to think about.

 

[235009]

first of all a few interesting articles about law school:
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/17/b...eakens-tuition-rises.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/04/opinion/is-law-school-a-good-investment.html
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/tucker-max/law-school_b_2713943.html

the basic rundown is that law school tuition is very high with no guarantee of a well-paying job once you get out (as opposed to medicine where every US MD is basically guaranteed a 140k+ salary after 3 years of residency), the job market is oversaturated, and those who do make it to the corporate law jobs are overworked and have low job satisfaction.

also to say that the majority of med school matriculants would've not only ended up in law or business, but been some of the most successful lawyers or businesspeople is insane. for the vast majority of people who end up in med school that bio degree from a mediocre school wasn't getting them anywhere with the only options open to them upon graduation being working in a lab for 30k/year or getting a PhD (and i'm assuming we don't need to go into how frustrating and not lucrative that road is). so bottom line.... med school offers the prospect for a stable well-paying job for a population that would otherwise be stuck in low-paying jobs or long tortuous career paths in the basic sciences.

 

[calvnandhobbs68]

first of all a few interesting articles about law school:
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/17/b...eakens-tuition-rises.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/04/opinion/is-law-school-a-good-investment.html
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/tucker-max/law-school_b_2713943.html

the basic rundown is that law school tuition is very high with no guarantee of a well-paying job once you get out (as opposed to medicine where every US MD is basically guaranteed a 140k+ salary after 3 years of residency), the job market is oversaturated, and those who do make it to the corporate law jobs are overworked and have low job satisfaction.

also to say that the majority of med school matriculants would've not only ended up in law or business, but been some of the most successful lawyers or businesspeople is insane. for the vast majority of people who end up in med school that bio degree from a mediocre school wasn't getting them anywhere with the only options open to them upon graduation being working in a lab for 30k/year or getting a PhD (and i'm assuming we don't need to go into how frustrating and not lucrative that road is). so bottom line.... med school offers the prospect for a stable well-paying job for a population that would otherwise be stuck in low-paying jobs or long tortuous career paths in the basic sciences.

Except what you're overlooking is that many applicants might not have been bio/science majors if they weren't planning on applying to medical school. I was interested in bio but I also knew it was the easiest way to get into labs and get upper level science courses. You can bet your a** that if I was planning on going off and being a consultant I would have majored in something in the business department like my friends. The same way so many freshmen pre-meds change their minds and find their new "calling" in the business school. Even if I didn't, my resume would have looked very different. People wouldn't be volunteering 500 hours in the hospital if they were planning on working for a healthcare consulting company or in some completely different field.

 

[Narmerguy]

This is just a warning that while disagreements are fine, personal attacks and offensive language (including evading the filter) are not.

Except what you're overlooking is that many applicants might not have been bio/science majors if they weren't planning on applying to medical school. I was interested in bio but I also knew it was the easiest way to get into labs and get upper level science courses. You can bet your a** that if I was planning on going off and being a consultant I would have majored in something in the business department like my friends. The same way so many freshmen pre-meds change their minds and find their new "calling" in the business school. Even if I didn't, my resume would have looked very different. People wouldn't be volunteering 500 hours in the hospital if they were planning on working for a healthcare consulting company or in some completely different field.

I honestly agree. To be successful in the sciences/medical admissions you have to have a good work ethic, logical reasoning ability, and some social savvy. While a lot of premeds may be missing on the social skills of your traditional business major, I think they on the whole can do well enough to let their other strengths carry them to success in these disciplines. I can't count how many people dropped premed prereqs because they were too hard, only to turn to business and find great passion (and success).

 

[Sephiroth]

This is just a warning that while disagreements are fine, personal attacks and offensive language (including evading the filter) are not.



I honestly agree. To be successful in the sciences/medical admissions you have to have a good work ethic, logical reasoning ability, and some social savvy. While a lot of premeds may be missing on the social skills of your traditional business major, I think they on the whole can do well enough to let their other strengths carry them to success in these disciplines. I can't count how many people dropped premed prereqs because they were too hard, only to turn to business and find great passion (and success).

Eh, they're really not comparable though. Sure there may be some correlation, but it's really a different skill set. While some classes and the MCAT to a decent extent requires a certain level of reasoning ability, the academic requirements for getting into med school are predominantly based around sitting down a memorzing a ton of crap (why do you think so many premeds hate orgo and physics so much?). While most will be fairly good at math, many people who get into med school may not have the necessary math skills to get into those high-paying finance jobs. Similarly, I doubt being able to get A's in memorization-heavy classes is that strongly tied with the skills needed to get an LSAT score high enough to get into one of the law schools at which you'd actually have a good shot at a well paying job coming out. Perhaps just the people who can get into stat-***** schools (meaning they get high grades and an do well on standardized tests, so that may correlate more) it might be a more meaningful comparison. But if we're talking about all the people who get into med school with a 3.6/28-30, then I'm pretty skeptical.

Maybe back in the 70s-80s when there were fewer law schools and the economy was booming, msot people would come out making good pay or getting an MBA wasn't something everyone and their mother had. But not anymore. It takes a lot more than that now, and that includes either knowing the right people, being able to network in a way that you really wouldn't need to for med school (unless it was getting someone to pull some special strings for you haha) or getting lucky.

 

[ilikevegetables]

obviously the point i am trying to relay is unfathomable to most of you.

why earn 250k when you can earn twice that if not more? do you realize how much hospitals earn when you admit patients (esp government handout supported patients, mostly the elderly)? do you realize how negligible a physician's salary is when compared to everything else? physicians are getting screwed because the executives know a large majority of them are willing to work for less because they can use the whole excuse of "you dont need the money, a doctor loves treating people whether the money is adequate or not (see: LizzyM's naive comment)."

Surely you must not be serious. Calling LizzyM naive?

First of all, the money is perfectly adequate, as many people are trying to say. Physicians make *way* more than the median income, so to say it's not adequate is just false - most people live on way less.

That said, if you consider the money to be inadequate for the amount of time you spend in school, the solution is simple: do something else.

 

[WompyWomperton]

I want to be the dude making m/billions, not quarter million(s).

How far have you explored the field of medicine? Does the thought of doing something that makes a difference not motivate you? Is helping people not something that genuinely interests you? In my opinion, doctors make a good living and the benefits far exceed monetary compensation.

 

[Renaissance Man]

why would they be paid any differently??

Never said they would be

 

[scene]

How far have you explored the field of medicine? Does the thought of doing something that makes a difference not motivate you? Is helping people not something that genuinely interests you? In my opinion, doctors make a good living and the benefits far exceed monetary compensation.

of course i want to help people, but at the same time i don't want to be taken advantage of. we are the ones taking the risk (possibly getting sick ourselves and taking on frivolous lawsuits) while the hospital reaps the rewards.

 

[LizzyM]

of course i want to help people, but at the same time i don't want to be taken advantage of. we are the ones taking the risk (possibly getting sick ourselves and taking on frivolous lawsuits) while the hospital reaps the rewards.

Why not go into hospital administration? Much less risk of contagion, very low risk of being named in a lawsuit, and those top administrators of the biggest medical centers make bank!

http://www.beckershospitalreview.co...the-25-top-grossing-non-profit-hospitals.html

 

[0TopCat0]

Oh you mean like him?

I'm not saying associate investment bankers don't work like dogs sometimes but I'm not sure who you're brown-nosing for here. You don't know more than anyone else on here who has "some friends" who are analysts or consultants. The difference seems to be that you're really impressed by your financial friends who "tell you that you need a 3.8 for Goldman to even look at you". I, on the other hand, am not as impressed.

http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2012-04-18/a-day-in-the-life-investment-banking-associate

this article is very misleading

 

[nysegop]

If you're that focused on money then just go into finance. Stop wasting your time in medicine. If you actually like medicine and care about it, than please continue.

 

[45408]

Medical students aren't anything special. Getting an A- average in biology, scoring in the 80th percentile of an exam that tests sophomore level science knowledge, volunteering in a hospital, or working in a research lab as an undergrad lackey aren't remarkable. Medical school is selective but 45% of people who apply still get in. The vast majority of those who get in will be making close to $200k/year even in the least competitive specialties like FM and IM. People who build businesses that clear hundreds of thousands of dollars after expenses are remarkable. Do you think 45% of business owners clear $200k/year? What about 45% of medical school applicants? Or, since you see medical students and physicians as paragons of intelligence and industriousness, do you think that 45% of medical students could build a business that clears $200k...or even $50k a year?

It's not remarkable as if people are going to be shocked that you did all of those things, but getting a 3.7 or 3.8 while being actively involved in multiple extracurricular activities and taking some fairly challenging classes is definitely more than the vast majority of people in my undergrad.

You're also picking all the large percentages ("Oh, 45% of people get into med school) and ignoring the fact that they're cumulative. The national HS graduation rate is 70%. The percentage of graduates who go to college is around 70%. The 6-year graduation rate for a bachelor's degree is 55%. That's already only 1/4 of all HS graduates. When I was applying for med school, there were something like 80,000 people who took the MCAT that year. Take a guess at how many pre-meds never bothered to take it after they failed organic chem or gen chem before that. Around 36,000 of them applied to med school, and 16,000 of them got in. That's only 20% of the people who took the MCAT.

A business owner needs a pretty different set of traits than a physician, and comparing the two is asinine. It's also ignorant and disingenuous to say that physicians "are nothing special," because it's the most challenging professional degree out there, and the post-graduate training makes med school pale in comparison.

 

[45408]

Any teaching hospital in a rural or under-served area.

And how many of the high-paying specialties are dominated by IMGs?

Virtually all competitive specialties favor AMGs, and most of the high-paying specialties are competitive.

 

[Tommyguns89]

I've pretty confident that I'll make more in my lifetime as a doctor than any other career path that is available to me. I don't have the pedigree for ibanking/consulting, I doubt I have the business sense to make it big in that arena, and I sure as hell am not doing law in this market. Does that make it the right choice for me? Of course not, but I guess it's one less thing for me to be bitter about.

This is how I feel on the issue.

Another thing people are missing is that while you give up a ridiculously high ceiling by entering medicine you gain unmatched job security. Most of the people you guys are comparing yourselves/future selves have a lot more variance in their income from year to year, and are vulnerable to the whims of the general economy.

Take law for example. I know of partners who were making 7 figures in Wall Street firms who were pushed out because they stopped bringing in business as a result of the economy. These are guys who graduated from top 3 law schools, law review, prestigious clerkships,etc. and they cant find a job in law.

Its not as simple as saying those who go into medicine are smart enough to be at the top of other fields. In other fields there are more factors that are outside of your control. You can do everything right and still get burned.

 

[MVP]

scene,

your traders, bankers, and CEOs are under as much competition and pressure as professional athletes to succeed, and they have to work themselves to the bone to answer to shareholders.

if you're equally as brilliant and want as much success in medicine, invent the next cochlear implant, PET scanner, become the next surgeon general, or revolutionize the system with your own health care model. these are all realistic opportunities for physicians.

good luck!

 

[Planes2Doc]

A pre-med starts a thread on SDN in regards to a potential volunteer opportunity that is coming up...

They say that they have the opportunity to do it as either:

A.) Volunteer commitment

Or...

B.) Do it for pay

They have no idea what to do. Now when it comes to real life, who in the world would ever have to ask such a question? Is there such a profession where people would be expected to make such a decision? Oh wait, just kidding... It's the medical school admissions process.

On a serious note, I think people make it seem like it's way too easy to become an entrepreneur or investment banker. I came out of a target school for investment banks, and only a couple people got positions. I also know plenty of others that ended up in management positions making around $50,000 a year. I don't know if they will end up above $100,000 if they continue on the path.

Medicine is a pretty sure-fire way to get a comfortable living. You just need to put up with odd self-hating people who think that they make too much money. I don't get why people need to villainize physicians.

Anyway, I realize people need to put on a big song and dance to get into medical school. I think once people are in medical school, they drop the act quickly, and start talking about money.

 

[thefritz]

You have to take into account that the folks who get into medicine had the grades and brains and work ethic and peristence to be in the top X% of many other fields

Nah, they mostly just had the right upbringing and moderately wealthy parents.

Med school more and more is becoming only accessible to people from wealthy families. The obscene cost of med school makes it virtually unobtainable to people from poorer backgrounds, who may have children, parents, or other family members to provide for, and who didn't have the luxury of having paid-for premium schooling since they were 6 so they could focus on their studies without any other distractions and obtain the flawless record needed to gain admission. Even if a poorer kid can find financing for med school, usually his grades will keep him out because he hasn't had the privileged lifestyle most med students have had.

I can't think of a single person in my 200 person class who had any sort of significant adversity in their past. The vast majority spent christmas break either on a cruise or in an exotic overseas destination (new zealand, australia, europe, etc.).

A very large percentage of med students have at least one parent who is a doctor. And just deal with it, almost everyone chooses to do this because of the earning potential and/or social status. And we wonder why we have a doctor shortage in rural areas? Nearly everyone in my class wants to practice in a high cost of living area and wants to train in a surgical subspeciality or other highly profitable speciality. Granted I go to a top school, and the higher ranked the school, the more you're going to see these kind of people. I would guess there would be far fewer silver spoon kids at community based schools.

It's a profession of the wealthy and elite. For those without the proper pedigree and funding, few have the flexibility in life to assume such massive financial risks pursuing an MD requires. Smarts and work ethic have little to do with it. I think most people with an average IQ could do this given the right upbringing.

 

[45408]

and who didn't have the luxury of having paid-for premium schooling since they were 6 so they could focus on their studies without any other distractions and obtain the flawless record needed to gain admission.

I can't think of a single person in my 200 person class who had any sort of significant adversity in their past. The vast majority spent christmas break either on a cruise or in an exotic overseas destination (new zealand, australia, europe, etc.).

Yeah, this is definitely a reflection of where you are. This was a minority in my class, and I still went to a school that usually makes it onto the USN&WR list. "Premium schooling" at age 6 is laughably overrated.

For those without the proper pedigree and funding, few have the flexibility in life to assume such massive financial risks pursuing an MD requires. Smarts and work ethic have little to do with it. I think most people with an average IQ could do this given the right upbringing.

I thought we've been talking about how there isn't that much financial risk, since we're all guaranteed a good salary?

And I'd love to see you revisit your comments on how "work ethic [has] little to do with it" once you hit residency. I'd say work ethic has a LOT to do with it.

 

[TheWeeIceMan]

This is slightly off-topic, but I wonder how far tuition will rise before we top out? It can't just keep going up forever, right? At some point the whole system will break or apps will go through the floor.

 

[advair250]

Oh, woops, that came out wrong. I didn't mean to imply that it wasn't hard work. It obviously requires a huge amount of dedication, and I don't mean to try and downplay that.

However, it annoys me to no end when people make comments about how they would be able to make so much more money if they hadn't gone to medical school. What are they doing? Engineering? That's a lower salary. Law? That can't be right. Business? Only the top 10% or so make as much, on average, as a physician. One needs to be a very successful entrapenuer/investor/consultant/whatever to make money in the millions and billions, and even people in the more difficult fields will never see a 200k+ salary. Obviously, they don't have hundreds of thousands of dollars of student debt, but otherwise...

People say medicine isn't the most lucrative field, and I'm not saying that it is, but they all seem to point to some mythical profession that makes a gillion dollars for less work, and it simply doesn't exist. Unless there's something nobody's been telling me about

There is so much wrong here. A another poster mentioned, you need to consider the time value of money and opportunity cost. I have already done the math, and I will be making less in FM, compared to if I went straight to work in my engineering discipline. Add to the stress, lack of control over your free time and financial constraints of a loan/ non-earnings of 7+ years of education + residency.

I know that FM is something I want to do with my time and that I will be very comfortable(people who scoff at 100-150k salary figures don't really understand the concept of being comfortable).

 

[sazerac]

This is slightly off-topic, but I wonder how far tuition will rise before we top out? It can't just keep going up forever, right? At some point the whole system will break or apps will go through the floor.

Student loans are curious financial instruments in that the loan payment is tied to income and not loan balance. Even if the loan becomes negative amortized and the balance rises every month. Tuition could literally rise to one million dollars a year and loan payments would never exceed 10% of your discretionary income. After 20 years, the loan balance is forgiven.

It is quite likely tuition will continue to rise forever, because the risk (of non-payment via forgiveness) is on the lender, not the borrower.

 

[galaxyx]

There is so much wrong here. A another poster mentioned, you need to consider the time value of money and opportunity cost. I have already done the math, and I will be making less in FM, compared to if I went straight to work in my engineering discipline. Add to the stress, lack of control over your free time and financial constraints of a loan/ non-earnings of 7+ years of education + residency.

I know that FM is something I want to do with my time and that I will be very comfortable(people who scoff at 100-150k salary figures don't really understand the concept of being comfortable).

People are also not taking into account that in order to to be successful in the megamillions world, you have to be driven by making money. There are plenty of highly intelligent people that find the greed/purpose of the business world to be abhorrent. These people end up working for non profit companies for very little wage. Sure one day they could work their way to the top and reach the $100k mark running the non profit and the very elite few could be running the national non profits for significantly more, but medicine provides a way to have a secure income while still being able to feel you are contributing in a positive way to society.

 

[TheWeeIceMan]

Student loans are curious financial instruments in that the loan payment is tied to income and not loan balance. Even if the loan becomes negative amortized and the balance rises every month. Tuition could literally rise to one million dollars a year and loan payments would never exceed 10% of your discretionary income. After 20 years, the loan balance is forgiven.

It is quite likely tuition will continue to rise forever, because the risk (of non-payment via forgiveness) is on the lender, not the borrower.

Welp, guess my future kids aren't going to college. It's kind of funny to think that someday, I might look back on my 150k med school loan as being nothing compared to "new" grads.

Also, if tuition got to such high levels, wouldn't the tax bomb at the end of loan forgiveness start to bankrupt people?

 

[KnuxNole]

Yeah, this is definitely a reflection of where you are. This was a minority in my class, and I still went to a school that usually makes it onto the USN&WR list. "Premium schooling" at age 6 is laughably overrated.


I thought we've been talking about how there isn't that much financial risk, since we're all guaranteed a good salary?

And I'd love to see you revisit your comments on how "work ethic [has] little to do with it" once you hit residency. I'd say work ethic has a LOT to do with it.

I think those "premium schoolings" pushes those kids way too hard, at least the things I hear them doing during AND after school. Being 6 = nap time, afternoon cartoons, playing outside, etc.

 

[MrChance2]

From my experience the vast majority of people that have more money than doctors are/were very dedicated to making a lot of money and are at least pretty intelligent or very lucky.

I think for most doctors becoming 1% rich is not a priority, but if you get an MD and focus on business and getting rich then I see no reason why it would be any tougher to succeed than in investment banking or trading. I think there are many instances where doctors make less than they should because they care about people more than money but that just comes with having humanistic profession.