Why not become a doctor for the money?

[thesauce]

Everything in life is hard. Residency will jade me and I will be bitter. Sure. Medical school was suppose to be my rape with a fire hose and I thought it was easy. Stuff isn't that hard. I recommend people do a second career before they decide to do medicine. Life is life. A job is a job. Just suck it up do it. Come home and chill. You guys make this your life that's why it's so disappointing to you when it doesn't go the way you guys hoped. Majority of the residents I have met have my view. Maybe the people I know are a happier bunch.

Great. When do I get to watch the Disney movie that you wrote this script for?

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[abruzz75]

Go into medicine for whatever reason you find to be worthwhile. If it's a true love for it, cool. If it's for the money, great. This idea that doctors shouldn't be working for the money is such a snobby and elitist attitude that is continually used here on SDN. In the end, it's a job.

If you have a great love and passion for a job that pays you 30K per year, but you "only like" a job in medicine that pays you 250K per year...choose wisely. There is more than 1 path in life that will be able to make you happy, you don't always need to choose your true love. Your second choice that might pay you more handsomely will probably do just fine.

 

[BamaSlamma]

Great. When do I get to watch the Disney movie that you wrote this script for?

No, I totally get what he's saying. It's all a matter of perspective. Your definition of hard or stressful may be vastly different than mine. Or his. Or the girl across from you in the library. All he's suggesting is that for those that go directly into medicine UG-->Med School -->Residency --> Life, usually don't have any other relevant experience to compare it to.

For example, my definition of a normal week is 90+ hours. My definition of a hard week is 110+ hours. As far as stress is concerned, I subscribe to the "If my ass ain't gettin' shot at, its an easy day" school of thought. I would venture a guess that your definition of a hard week or a stressful day are drastically different.

He's not saying that medicine isn't hard. He's saying life is hard. And unless you have relevant experience outside of medicine, you're comparing apples to oranges.

 

[SeekerOfTheTree]

Great. When do I get to watch the Disney movie that you wrote this script for?

As soon as you are done with residency.

 

[SeekerOfTheTree]

No, I totally get what he's saying. It's all a matter of perspective. Your definition of hard or stressful may be vastly different than mine. Or his. Or the girl across from you in the library. All he's suggesting is that for those that go directly into medicine UG-->Med School -->Residency --> Life, usually don't have any other relevant experience to compare it to.

For example, my definition of a normal week is 90+ hours. My definition of a hard week is 110+ hours. As far as stress is concerned, I subscribe to the "If my ass ain't gettin' shot at, its an easy day" school of thought. I would venture a guess that your definition of a hard week or a stressful day are drastically different.

He's not saying that medicine isn't hard. He's saying life is hard. And unless you have relevant experience outside of medicine, you're comparing apples to oranges.

I wish I had said it that beautifully.

 

[tima]

Also, consider which job/profession carries more swag.

If you have a great love and passion for a job that pays you 30K per year, but you "only like" a job in medicine that pays you 250K per year...choose wisely. There is more than 1 path in life that will be able to make you happy, you don't always need to choose your true love. Your second choice that might pay you more handsomely will probably do just fine.

 

[45408]

The point was people burnout. Medicine isn't special to that. There isn't this special amount of untapped stress that only physicians feel that no other brain in the world experiences.

Yes, it is.

http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2012/08/the-root-of-physician-burnout/261590/
http://www.theatlantic.com/health/a...what-it-means-for-patients-and-reform/261418/
http://www.ama-assn.org/amednews/2012/09/03/prl20903.htm

Everything in life is hard. Residency will jade me and I will be bitter. Sure. Medical school was suppose to be my rape with a fire hose and I thought it was easy. Stuff isn't that hard. I recommend people do a second career before they decide to do medicine. Life is life. A job is a job. Just suck it up do it. Come home and chill. You guys make this your life that's why it's so disappointing to you when it doesn't go the way you guys hoped. Majority of the residents I have met have my view. Maybe the people I know are a happier bunch.

Every now and then, somebody strolls through pre-allo and plays it real cool. Med school was easy. How bad can residency be? I'm sure all of these weak-minded attendings with burnout just have a poor grip on real life. Yeah, life is just hard, man.

A job is a job, I guess. Most jobs don't involve a human being dying beneath your hands. Doing CPR on a child who bled to death in front of me. In less than the past week, I've had to take someone's 1-day old baby to the OR for an emergency operation at 2am, pronounce a woman dead (after doing emergency surgery on her last weekend), remove the majority of tissue from someone's leg for necrotizing fasciitis, and staple up a belligerent drunk's lacerations while he yelled at me. If that fits in your definition of "a job is a job," then I disagree with your definition of "a job." It becomes your life because it is your life. I do this more than anything else, and I invest a lot more of my energy in this than anything else.

Is being a physician the most stressful thing in the world? No, of course not. I think it would be more stressful to be a single mother raising children in poverty while trying to improve one's standing in life by going to school and working a low-paying high-stress job, or to be walking around on patrol in Afghanistan, knowing you could step on an IED at any time. But we do face high levels of burnout, long careers in a challenging occupation that literally involves people dying in front of you, with a 99% chance of being sued (in my specialty).

Because when the 80th hour rolls around when you're on-call after working 23 hours straight, and you're 200,000k in debt and 30 years old barely making minimum wage, you're probably going to regret your decision.

And you haven't seen your kids in several days, since you're either on call or getting home after their bed time. I've been on call six times in the last 15 days. My wife took the kids to visit our families, but I had to work this weekend. It's all well and good to motivate yourself to do something cool, but when you've been at the hospital for 20 hours, and you get the 19 millionth stupid trauma from someone who was getting ridiculously drunk and now injured themselves doing something stupid and want to be a belligerent fool at 3am.....I just can't see the money as being the best factor. Will you still get paid? Sure, of course. Will you be providing good quality care? I don't know. I just know that it would be a lot less likely for me if I didn't actually care about what I'm doing.

 

[galaxyx]

Because when the 80th hour rolls around when you're on-call after working 23 hours straight, and you're 200,000k in debt and 30 years old barely making minimum wage, you're probably going to regret your decision.

You have a funny concept of what minimum wage is. Even if you're only making $40,000 for 80 hour weeks you're earning $10/hr which is almost 50% more than minimum wage.

 

[45408]

You have a funny concept of what minimum wage is. Even if you're only making $40,000 for 80 hour weeks you're earning $10/hr which is almost 50% more than minimum wage.

Sure, if you're not paying overtime. If you were getting paid overtime, like anyone getting an hourly wage is, then 80 hours/week for $40K/year is $8/hr. If you live in San Francisco, that's 25% less than minimum wage.


But honestly, that's not the point. I made over $50K last year, and I'm living comfortably (with loans in forbearance and nothing saved for retirement). It can be kind of depressing to realize that I'm paid less per hour than any other hospital employee with any clinical responsibilities. The janitors might be making less, but that's not exactly reassuring. I made more per hour when I was doing landscaping in college, and when I worked extra hours, I got paid extra. Now, when I work extra, it just decreases what I'm getting paid per hour. It's just demoralizing at times.

 

[KnuxNole]

Yes, it is.

http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2012/08/the-root-of-physician-burnout/261590/
http://www.theatlantic.com/health/a...what-it-means-for-patients-and-reform/261418/
http://www.ama-assn.org/amednews/2012/09/03/prl20903.htm


Every now and then, somebody strolls through pre-allo and plays it real cool. Med school was easy. How bad can residency be? I'm sure all of these weak-minded attendings with burnout just have a poor grip on real life. Yeah, life is just hard, man.

A job is a job, I guess. Most jobs don't involve a human being dying beneath your hands. Doing CPR on a child who bled to death in front of me. In less than the past week, I've had to take someone's 1-day old baby to the OR for an emergency operation at 2am, pronounce a woman dead (after doing emergency surgery on her last weekend), remove the majority of tissue from someone's leg for necrotizing fasciitis, and staple up a belligerent drunk's lacerations while he yelled at me. If that fits in your definition of "a job is a job," then I disagree with your definition of "a job." It becomes your life because it is your life. I do this more than anything else, and I invest a lot more of my energy in this than anything else.

Is being a physician the most stressful thing in the world? No, of course not. I think it would be more stressful to be a single mother raising children in poverty while trying to improve one's standing in life by going to school and working a low-paying high-stress job, or to be walking around on patrol in Afghanistan, knowing you could step on an IED at any time. But we do face high levels of burnout, long careers in a challenging occupation that literally involves people dying in front of you, with a 99% chance of being sued (in my specialty).



And you haven't seen your kids in several days, since you're either on call or getting home after their bed time. I've been on call six times in the last 15 days. My wife took the kids to visit our families, but I had to work this weekend. It's all well and good to motivate yourself to do something cool, but when you've been at the hospital for 20 hours, and you get the 19 millionth stupid trauma from someone who was getting ridiculously drunk and now injured themselves doing something stupid and want to be a belligerent fool at 3am.....I just can't see the money as being the best factor. Will you still get paid? Sure, of course. Will you be providing good quality care? I don't know. I just know that it would be a lot less likely for me if I didn't actually care about what I'm doing.

To play devil's advocate, the people going into medicine only for the money sometimes tend to lean towards specialties that are "cush"...

Although I admit, doing any job that I hate would make me quit in a heartbeat. Cause if I hate the job, why the hell would I still stay? Can't think of any reason to stay in a profession that I would find "soul crushing". Ex: Law. If I got a six figure check every year, but want to puke in someone's face every day, no thank you.

 

[SeekerOfTheTree]

Yes, it is.

http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2012/08/the-root-of-physician-burnout/261590/
http://www.theatlantic.com/health/a...what-it-means-for-patients-and-reform/261418/
http://www.ama-assn.org/amednews/2012/09/03/prl20903.htm


Every now and then, somebody strolls through pre-allo and plays it real cool. Med school was easy. How bad can residency be? I'm sure all of these weak-minded attendings with burnout just have a poor grip on real life. Yeah, life is just hard, man.

A job is a job, I guess. Most jobs don't involve a human being dying beneath your hands. Doing CPR on a child who bled to death in front of me. In less than the past week, I've had to take someone's 1-day old baby to the OR for an emergency operation at 2am, pronounce a woman dead (after doing emergency surgery on her last weekend), remove the majority of tissue from someone's leg for necrotizing fasciitis, and staple up a belligerent drunk's lacerations while he yelled at me. If that fits in your definition of "a job is a job," then I disagree with your definition of "a job." It becomes your life because it is your life. I do this more than anything else, and I invest a lot more of my energy in this than anything else.

Is being a physician the most stressful thing in the world? No, of course not. I think it would be more stressful to be a single mother raising children in poverty while trying to improve one's standing in life by going to school and working a low-paying high-stress job, or to be walking around on patrol in Afghanistan, knowing you could step on an IED at any time. But we do face high levels of burnout, long careers in a challenging occupation that literally involves people dying in front of you, with a 99% chance of being sued (in my specialty).



And you haven't seen your kids in several days, since you're either on call or getting home after their bed time. I've been on call six times in the last 15 days. My wife took the kids to visit our families, but I had to work this weekend. It's all well and good to motivate yourself to do something cool, but when you've been at the hospital for 20 hours, and you get the 19 millionth stupid trauma from someone who was getting ridiculously drunk and now injured themselves doing something stupid and want to be a belligerent fool at 3am.....I just can't see the money as being the best factor. Will you still get paid? Sure, of course. Will you be providing good quality care? I don't know. I just know that it would be a lot less likely for me if I didn't actually care about what I'm doing.

You chose to do this at the end of the day. You picked the field and "gave up" things. I don't say sacrificed for a reason. I am sorry it is not as easy for you as it has been for me. I can't change that. But I knew what I wanted to pick because I knew what was more important to me. I knew becoming a doctor isn't a sacrifice so I don't have to give up my life. I don't take it home with me. It is possible because my job does not equal me as a person. We watch people die this is what we sign up for. It's like becoming a prostitute and then describing how men have sex with you.

You said it yourself other things are more stressful.

Looking at AMA I found 89 percent lawsuit for gen surg over 55. I knew you were some sort of surg and your response seems in line with it. Having one lawsuit. We all will have ours. Docs have told me theirs. It works out and they still practice. Some have never had any.

Quality of care and caring about what you do...it's gonna get pretty philosophical at that point. I would argue when I go in and treat my patient I look at them as what would I do for my family. I know they are not my family though. Doesn't change what I would do if I cared more. I would argue if I cared more I would compromise them and there care by being too eventually invested.

Don't let this be your life. That's all I can say. It is a job. When a soldier can't leave the crap behind they can't hold their personal lives together. On the flip side there are plenty of happy soldiers too.

 

[SeekerOfTheTree]

Salaried employees don't get overtime in the private sector.

 

[45408]

You chose to do this at the end of the day. You picked the field and "gave up" things. I don't say sacrificed for a reason. I am sorry it is not as easy for you as it has been for me. I can't change that. But I knew what I wanted to pick because I knew what was more important to me. I knew becoming a doctor isn't a sacrifice so I don't have to give up my life. I don't take it home with me. It is possible because my job does not equal me as a person. We watch people die this is what we sign up for. It's like becoming a prostitute and then describing how men have sex with you.

You haven't done any of this yet, so you are being condescending through your ignorance. Your crass analogies aren't conveying your point, and you seem to have completely missed mine. None of this was a pity party for me. I don't want or need your sympathy. I love what I'm doing. I enjoy being near the edges of life and death. Everything else seems boring by comparison - just "a job."

I'm still living my life. I own a house, have a family, go on vacation, etc. I still spend more time at the hospital working than I do for anything else.

You said it yourself other things are more stressful.

Yes, that was the entire third paragraph. We still experience higher rates of stress and burnout than most professions with high barriers to entry and exit, with a training path that is almost as long your whole life when you decide to do it.

Looking at AMA I found 89 percent lawsuit for gen surg over 55. I knew you were some sort of surg and your response seems in line with it. Having one lawsuit. We all will have ours. Docs have told me theirs. It works out and they still practice. Some have never had any.

Word? No sweat then.

Quality of care and caring about what you do...it's gonna get pretty philosophical at that point. I would argue when I go in and treat my patient I look at them as what would I do for my family. I know they are not my family though. Doesn't change what I would do if I cared more. I would argue if I cared more I would compromise them and there care by being too eventually invested.

My suggestion was not that you should treat patients as if they were your own family.

Salaried employees don't get overtime in the private sector.

I know.

 

[ScholarStud]

Prowler, would you say other doctors experience as much stress as you do? Not all specialties involve holding dying people in your arms which, based on your posts, appears to be the most difficult part of your job (life) for you.

I have to say I'm not sure what exactly is being debated in this thread. It sounds like everyone agrees Medicine is a great career to pursue.

 

[BamaSlamma]

deleted

 

[SeekerOfTheTree]

You haven't done any of this yet, so you are being condescending through your ignorance. Your crass analogies aren't conveying your point, and you seem to have completely missed mine. None of this was a pity party for me. I don't want or need your sympathy. I love what I'm doing. I enjoy being near the edges of life and death. Everything else seems boring by comparison - just "a job."

I'm still living my life. I own a house, have a family, go on vacation, etc. I still spend more time at the hospital working than I do for anything else.


Yes, that was the entire third paragraph. We still experience higher rates of stress and burnout than most professions with high barriers to entry and exit, with a training path that is almost as long your whole life when you decide to do it.


Word? No sweat then.


My suggestion was not that you should treat patients as if they were your own family.


I know.

You're better and wiser. I understand. I know my place. I did my surgery rotation. You guys are real doctors. Many people do jobs to support their lives. I am one of those.

I would rather see my kid instead of spending time in the hospital on call regardless of if it was the best job in the world for me. Surgery is one of those fields. We have different priorities. You made the point about your family. Was never meant to be a pity party. I like birthday parties.

 

[jorgediaz]

Great post TheProwler. I love your input here on this forum. It's refreshing to hear things from a resident's POV, especially one that doesn't talk down to pre-meds.

 

[45408]

Prowler, would you say other doctors experience as much stress as you do? Not all specialties involve holding dying people in your arms which, based on your posts, appears to be the most difficult part of your job (life) for you.

I have to say I'm not sure what exactly is being debated in this thread. It sounds like everyone agrees Medicine is a great career to pursue.

Um, not at all. You guys are completely misreading this. The dramatic moments are what actually make this job awesome. Slamming a chest tube into a patient with a tension pneumothorax with plummeting vitals = awesome. Ruptured AAA that goes all night long and results in an extremely polite elderly gentleman thanking you for saving his life? Equally awesome. Seeing his daughter a year later (and she recognizes you) and hearing that he just got to meet his newest grandchild and is now basically back to normal = highlight of my week. If you walk home after that and go "Yup, just a job," then my point is that you're living in a different world than I do.

The stress comes from getting paged by four different people to do eight different things, and then some attending is inevitably pissed that you didn't get to their thing as quickly. The stress is from studying for stupid tests that you don't care about. The write-ups from some butthurt nurse who doesn't even know me but was floated onto my unit and thought I was a meanie pants and wrote me and the attending up for "making adjustments to the patient's ventilator without consulting me." Showing up at work when it's dark and leaving when it's dark. The 873 progress notes, discharge summaries, prescriptions, and the patient going to the nursing home with a wound VAC, three times a week dialysis, warfarin, and six follow-up appointments, who needs a discharge summary right now, as the OR is calling you because your patient is already asleep on the table.

If you read any of the polls and surveys on physician burnout, you'll see that it's the soaring bureaucracy that really frustrates people the most. My hospital has an EMR that goes back decades, and they even have operative reports scanned in from the '40s. The operative report has the patient's name, the surgeon's name, and the word "appendectomy" on it. The discharge summary has a couple more words.

Plus, I just wish we could smoke on rounds like they used to

 

[45408]

IED's are no joke, but were of much greater concern in Iraq. In Afghani-Taliban-istan, there was no greater pucker factor than being on foot in the mountains. Its not a question of if you will take fire, its a question of when, and whether they're close/lucky enough to hit anyone.

My single most stressful moment in country was when I was on an op where we had a high value target hiding in a small village. Due to the terrain, there was no way to fly to an LZ and then hoof it to the target. We had to fly basically right into the middle of this village. There came a point where I could see the village through my cans (NVG's) and realized that if I can see them, they can hear us, and our only hope for this op to not turn into a bloody ****-storm was if they weren't as interested in putting up a fight as we were in capturing this target. That 1 minute period of my life probably shaved a solid decade off my proverbial clock. But it was one of those ops where the powers that be had decided the target was worth the risk, and even sent a bravo team in a backup helicopter to complete the mission in the very possible event that things turned into a ****-show and "Alpha team failed to reach the target." That was one of the longest/shortest/scariest/most stressful days of my life. And yes, it did turn into a partial ****-show. Thankfully everyone made it out still breathing.

Pulling the trigger is an entirely different kind of stress in itself.



Sorry, I didn't mean to hijack this thread, or even make a big deal out of your post, I know this wasn't the intention of your comment, but it got me thinking, and its a whole lot easier to talk to anonymous people on the interwebs that have no idea who I am than it is to try to relate some of those things to family and friends. Sorry.

My heart is pounding when I play paintball or when I used to get down to the wire in Call of Duty 4. How someone can do this - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clinton_Romesha#Medal_of_Honor_action - is way beyond me.

You're better and wiser. I understand. I know my place. I did my surgery rotation. You guys are real doctors. Many people do jobs to support their lives. I am one of those.

Strangely enough, I didn't say or imply any of that. I don't really bash other specialties or question their life choices, but it certainly irritates me when they try to do it to me.

 

[EarthtoneJon]

I love when people say things like "if it's just money you're after, go into business!"

Yes, because the vast majority of people who "go into business" (what the flip does that even mean?) are ballin' in Escalades. I mean, come on, all you've gotta do is become a lead sales representative for a fortune 500 company, or merely patent, market, and manage the production of a simple product that everyone needs but nobody has thought of! Just GO INTO BUSINESS and it's easy. Don't worry, the market isn't completely saturated, and the economy isn't tanking or anything.

Listen, just make sure (as much as you can) that you're going to like being a doctor before you invest the time and money. Doctors are guaranteed a darn good salary, at least by my standards. Few other career paths can do that.

...except GOING INTO BUSINESS of course.

 

[thesauce]

Go into medicine for whatever reason you find to be worthwhile. If it's a true love for it, cool. If it's for the money, great. This idea that doctors shouldn't be working for the money is such a snobby and elitist attitude that is continually used here on SDN. In the end, it's a job.

If you have a great love and passion for a job that pays you 30K per year, but you "only like" a job in medicine that pays you 250K per year...choose wisely. There is more than 1 path in life that will be able to make you happy, you don't always need to choose your true love. Your second choice that might pay you more handsomely will probably do just fine.

Here's the other attitude that's continually used on SDN. When you propose 2 choices, be sure and make them as unrealistically unbalanced as possible.

 

[thesauce]

I love when people say things like "if it's just money you're after, go into business!"

Yes, because the vast majority of people who "go into business" (what the flip does that even mean?) are ballin' in Escalades. I mean, come on, all you've gotta do is become a lead sales representative for a fortune 500 company, or merely patent, market, and manage the production of a simple product that everyone needs but nobody has thought of! Just GO INTO BUSINESS and it's easy. Don't worry, the market isn't completely saturated, and the economy isn't tanking or anything.

Listen, just make sure (as much as you can) that you're going to like being a doctor before you invest the time and money. Doctors are guaranteed a darn good salary, at least by my standards. Few other career paths can do that.

...except GOING INTO BUSINESS of course.

Nothing is guaranteed even in medicine.

We were fortunate for a long time in being allowed to self-regulate our industry because we made these talking points and didn't let the focus of our profession (as seen from the outside) fall on our large salaries. I suggest that you tell your non-medical friends and acquaintances the same thing. No good can come from talking about our high salaries except painting a target on our backs.

 

[thesauce]

No, I totally get what he's saying. It's all a matter of perspective. Your definition of hard or stressful may be vastly different than mine. Or his. Or the girl across from you in the library. All he's suggesting is that for those that go directly into medicine UG-->Med School -->Residency --> Life, usually don't have any other relevant experience to compare it to.

For example, my definition of a normal week is 90+ hours. My definition of a hard week is 110+ hours. As far as stress is concerned, I subscribe to the "If my ass ain't gettin' shot at, its an easy day" school of thought. I would venture a guess that your definition of a hard week or a stressful day are drastically different.

That's definitely true and we appreciate your service.

He's not saying that medicine isn't hard. He's saying life is hard. And unless you have relevant experience outside of medicine, you're comparing apples to oranges.

Now that the average age of matriculation has increased to ~24 (or maybe even higher?), I would recommend that you go in with the assumption that most of us have work experience outside of medicine.

 

[thesauce]

To play devil's advocate, the people going into medicine only for the money sometimes tend to lean towards specialties that are "cush"...

The same concept applies. If you don't actually care about the material and just want a paycheck, you aren't going to do the extra reading and practice that it takes to provide good, quality care. Again, this isn't something that I appreciated until residency.

 

[jaykav07]

Go pharm or dent.

My gpa is so low I can only get into a carribean med school. I guess I could go to grad school for 2 years, but that's bringing the time to be a pharmicist/dentist/optometrist to be about the same as being a doctor with the 3 year internship. Except you would be making a lot less.

 

[GUH]

...And the way medicine is changing with ACA, all physicians will be a hospital employee by the time your are done with residency or fellowship and you will be paid far less while working harder...

That's an extreme statement. Would you be willing to bet on it? Hypothetically speaking, of course.

 

[EnergyDrink]

My heart is pounding when I play paintball

Do you still play?

 

[45408]

Do you still play?

Last time I went was when 20 of us went paintballing in our short white coats right before graduation, in 2010.

 

[KnuxNole]

My gpa is so low I can only get into a carribean med school. I guess I could go to grad school for 2 years, but that's bringing the time to be a pharmicist/dentist/optometrist to be about the same as being a doctor with the 3 year internship. Except you would be making a lot less.

How low? I'm sure you are well aware of all the negatives and positives involved with that choice.

 

[Arbor Vitae]

My heart is pounding when I play paintball or when I used to get down to the wire in Call of Duty 4.

I realized how true PTSD is after I went paint balling. As I was falling asleep that night, I would doze off and start dreaming like I was about to get hit by a paintball and would wake up flinching in pain and my heart racing. It was crazy how real it was and the shock of being hit/shot was so realistic just before waking back up. I can only imagine how intense it must be for somebody who went to actual war.

 

[abruzz75]

Here's the other attitude that's continually used on SDN. When you propose 2 choices, be sure and make them as unrealistically unbalanced as possible.

What's the average household income in the US, like 45K? 50K? And that's household, not individual. So I compared an individual's salary of 30K to what I believe to be an average individual physician salary.

But sure, go ahead and call that "unrealistically unbalanced".

 

[thesauce]

What's the average household income in the US, like 45K? 50K? And that's household, not individual. So I compared an individual's salary of 30K to what I believe to be an average individual physician salary.

But sure, go ahead and call that "unrealistically unbalanced".

So your premise is that the average household has someone choosing between medical school and a $30k/yr job? Interesting...

Med school applicants are college grads at a minumum and many have post-grad educations. Their average income potential is much higher than the average citizen who doesn't even have a community college education. I would also bet that $250k is much higher than the average physician's salary.

 

[postbacpremed87]

Medicine is and WILL always remain the best way for an average joe (not connected in New England to get a cushy investment banking/private equity job) to make good money. Good will always be a relative term. If society collapses, physicians can always treat people for food/shelter. Think about the docs back in the day who had farmers giving them chickens and jam.

If you want to make good money, then the formula is simple. Do something that most people cannot do.

Score well on your MCAT, make good grades - med school

Take an interest in math early on and be good at math - become an actuary - they make 6 figures because no one else can do the rigorous math...


I am sure there are other examples....

 

[galaxyx]

Medicine is and WILL always remain the best way for an average joe (not connected in New England to get a cushy investment banking/private equity job) to make good money. Good will always be a relative term. If society collapses, physicians can always treat people for food/shelter. Think about the docs back in the day who had farmers giving them chickens and jam.

If you want to make good money, then the formula is simple. Do something that most people cannot do.

Score well on your MCAT, make good grades - med school

Take an interest in math early on and be good at math - become an actuary - they make 6 figures because no one else wants to do the rigorous math...


I am sure there are other examples....

ftfy

 

[BenzylAcetate]

In both cases I would have 4 more years of schooling though so I would really have debt both ways, so that argument is null. Though with medicine there is 3 years of residency after schooling, but you don't have to pay for it. And that 112k salary is from harvard, that's the best case scenario.

I believe most MBA programs are 2 years, not 4. Med school is usually on the higher end of graduate school in terms of tuition, so I believe the debt load is going to be much higher from medical school. COA at Harvard Med is 76k, 54k for the business program.

Sure, you don't pay for residency but you are making substantially less (while working 80 hrs/week) than your MBA counter part who has been working for 2 years. Throughout this time your school loans will continue accruing interest. Will the physician come out ahead further down the line? Most likely, but it'll take a long time to get there.

 

[thesauce]

Medicine is and WILL always remain the best way for an average joe (not connected in New England to get a cushy investment banking/private equity job) to make good money. Good will always be a relative term. If society collapses, physicians can always treat people for food/shelter. Think about the docs back in the day who had farmers giving them chickens and jam.

If you want to make good money, then the formula is simple. Do something that most people cannot do.

Score well on your MCAT, make good grades - med school

Take an interest in math early on and be good at math - become an actuary - they make 6 figures because no one else can do the rigorous math...


I am sure there are other examples....

Wishful thinking. I hope so too.

 

[EarthtoneJon]

Nothing is guaranteed even in medicine.

We were fortunate for a long time in being allowed to self-regulate our industry because we made these talking points and didn't let the focus of our profession (as seen from the outside) fall on our large salaries. I suggest that you tell your non-medical friends and acquaintances the same thing. No good can come from talking about our high salaries except painting a target on our backs.

I see. Let's assume my standard for a " darn good salary" for a 40+ hour work week is $75,000 / year, and cost of living is fixed. Is this not guaranteed at some point in the foreseeable future? No sarcasm intended, honestly. I'm wondering.

Edit: I already do this to some extent. My friends love to envision my future Floridian estate and Lamborghini, but I am quick to correct them.

 

[goofball]

Go into medicine for whatever reason you find to be worthwhile. If it's a true love for it, cool. If it's for the money, great. This idea that doctors shouldn't be working for the money is such a snobby and elitist attitude that is continually used here on SDN. In the end, it's a job.

And from what I hear, it's an attitude that will vanish when you actually become a physician.

Personally I think it's kinda naive to say you want to "help people." But eh, I always hated idealists.

Medicine is and WILL always remain the best way for an average joe (not connected in New England to get a cushy investment banking/private equity job) to make good money.

"Average Joes" would never get to medical school. The "Average Joe" can't even graduate college.

Other than that, well, most engineering fields probably do better than doctors if you move into a management position. Still, I hate everything about engineering, so I'll stick with medicine.

So your premise is that the average household has someone choosing between medical school and a $30k/yr job? Interesting...

Med school applicants are college grads at a minumum and many have post-grad educations. Their average income potential is much higher than the average citizen who doesn't even have a community college education. I would also bet that $250k is much higher than the average physician's salary.

College unfortunately isn't that useful in an economy where being a bartender or a waiter have become careers even for college grads. I think I'll stick with medicine.

 

[mcloaf]

And from what I hear, it's an attitude that will vanish when you actually become a physician.

Personally I think it's kinda naive to say you want to "help people." But eh, I always hated idealists.




"Average Joes" would never get to medical school. The "Average Joe" can't even graduate college.

Other than that, well, most engineering fields probably do better than doctors if you move into a management position. Still, I hate everything about engineering, so I'll stick with medicine.





College unfortunately isn't that useful in an economy where being a bartender or a waiter have become careers even for college grads. I think I'll stick with medicine.

Outside of petroleum engineering, most engineers will not make anywhere near what their successful physician colleagues can.

 

[EnginrTheFuture]

Outside of petroleum engineering, most engineers will not make anywhere near what their successful physician colleagues can.

I am not so sure this is true. I am not trying to prove one viewpoint or the other, I will just give you my perspective for reference. The majority of my friends that left with bachelors degrees across a spectrum of engineering (chemE, EECS, Nuclear, Mechanical, Naval, industrial and operations) all made 60k+ starting. Essentially anyone but biomedEs. The majority of my friends that did a masters were starting around 90k at big name companies (boeing, apple, microsoft). These are 23 year olds with a masters degree. We're not even talking managerial positions or anything. In the long run, it is highly likely they will make similar money as me without the medical training and deferred payment. But who knows? I do believe their upward mobility has much more potential than a physician. This could be a good thing or a bad thing or both.

 

[Gauss44]

I didn't know where to put this thread, you can move it if you feel necessary. So I heard that becoming a doctor for the money is not worth the effort, but is this really true? I mean the effort in getting a job with 150k+ salary is very difficult if you are going into other fields.

I've finished my undergrad and my only options are either to go to the carribean next semester or go to grad school and then to med school, which just seems to stretch the time to becoming a doctor to ridiculous lengths. I've never really enjoyed medicine, but when looking at other career paths, I've found that I primarily look at what the salary would be. Becoming a doctor would take 7 more years of schooling including residency, and going back to school to follow another career path would take a similar amount of time, but I would get a lower salary. If I were to get an MBA for example, that would take 4+ years of more schooling and the starting salary is like 112k... from HARVARD.

There are many high-paying jobs.

-Attorneys can bring in over $1000 an hour, but typically probably bring in more like $300-$500 an hour.

-Financial professionals who work for firms like Goldman Sachs or Wells Fargo can bring in a similarly generous sums (or better).

-Air Traffic Controllers can make $100k a year without going to college.

-Manager/Higher up in corporations might start at $100k then get bumped to $150k, $200k, etc. (I don't know as much about this last one.)

Then you have to consider your skill set. Are you better at reading, writing, arguing, number crunching, networking, science, etc.

And who you are. These days I think racial minorities, women, and "out" lgb & t people can move up in large financial institutions and law firms these days, but might check on that before getting set on that as a career. Ex. What additional barriers, if any, do they have.

And your competition. I hear that 1st year grades are everything in law school, and that just about everyone dreams of going into "big law" or the firms where they will score the biggest bucks. And I hear that in finance, getting a job at Goldman is a "craps shot."

Your lifestyle. Different occupations have different hours and different cultures. Will you be pleased with your peers, enjoy their parties, and your hours.

Your age. How long you will work before retirement, how long your investments will grow is very significant, what education bills will you have to subtract from your earnings. (If you are thrifty, you might consider how much you'll have to spend on suits working in law or business.)

This really depends on you and what you want for yourself and family.

Edit: changed "make" to "bring in"

 

[thesauce]

There are many high-paying jobs.

-Attorneys can make over $1000 an hour, but typically probably make more like $300-$500 an hour.

You have been grossly misinformed

 

[NickNaylor]

You have been grossly misinformed

Nah, $12k/week seems pretty normal for a lawyer salary. That must be why everyone went to law school!

 

[EnginrTheFuture]

It depends. If you own a law firm or become a significant partner, $300-$500 per hour is a reasonable guess. That is what would be billed, but the attorney needs to pay his/her staff, rent, etc. That is for things like criminal or civil law. If one goes into tax law, many areas of corporate law, etc., a lawyer could easily be found BILLING well over $500 an hour or making a salary that is equivalent. Remember that billing and "making" are very very different.

 

[NickNaylor]

It depends. If you own a law firm or become a significant partner, $300-$500 per hour is a reasonable guess. That is what would be billed, but the attorney needs to pay his/her staff, rent, etc. That is for things like criminal or civil law. If one goes into tax law, many areas of corporate law, etc., a lawyer could easily be found BILLING well over $500 an hour or making a salary that is equivalent. Remember that billing and "making" are very very different.

Yeah, just because it happens doesn't mean it's "typical." There are ortho spine surgeons that clear a million per year (the 90th percentile for income is $1.1 million). That doesn't mean that it's "typical" for a physician to make $500k.

 

[mcloaf]

I am not so sure this is true. I am not trying to prove one viewpoint or the other, I will just give you my perspective for reference. The majority of my friends that left with bachelors degrees across a spectrum of engineering (chemE, EECS, Nuclear, Mechanical, Naval, industrial and operations) all made 60k+ starting. Essentially anyone but biomedEs. The majority of my friends that did a masters were starting around 90k at big name companies (boeing, apple, microsoft). These are 23 year olds with a masters degree. We're not even talking managerial positions or anything. In the long run, it is highly likely they will make similar money as me without the medical training and deferred payment. But who knows? I do believe their upward mobility has much more potential than a physician. This could be a good thing or a bad thing or both.

Last time I looked engineering salary surveys put the average at about 90k.

 

[Gauss44]

You have been grossly misinformed

Hourly rates run in that range. This is 1st hand knowledge. Of course, if you work for a firm it gets a cut. Taxes take a cut, etc. Firms (and equity partners) can also earn money from winning cases, sometimes in the millions. Judge awards winning party $x and firm takes a percentage.

This also assumes a mature career. In a firm, attorneys start out as associates and within several years make partner or start their own business.

In finance, there are certainly jobs with a base salary of over $500k. I'm less familiar with that though.

 

[WompyWomperton]

Depending on your ability to finance a medical education you wont just be getting a 150k+ salary. You will be getting a 150k+ salary with 200k+ in principle debt with 8+ years of accrued interest.

Yes, you will be paid well eventually but you wont really feel the change in lifestyle that comes with a 150k+ salary until several years into your career ~ 18 years post college education (4 years med school + 4 years residency + 10 year repayment).

When you compare salaries you really need to look at the net take home pay. 150k compared to 112k seems like a large discrepancy, but after taxes for the state of Alabama its a comparison of 8,100/month to 6,200/month respectively.

150k is a little on the low side, isn't it? It depends heavily on the field/specialty you go into.

I'm not in it for the money, but I've done the math and am fairly certain that the average physician can handle the debt.

 

[nysegop]

Reason 1: Because financially it's actually not that great (until later in life). Consider it delayed gratification. You go into a huge amount of debt and you can't work until later in life. (To be an attending neurosurgeon you have to be at least 33 unless you graduate early or skip some grades). Plus you have to pay down your outstanding debt and the interest. On top of that you have to pay malpractice which for some of the higher paying specialties in some states can be well over $100,000.


Reason 2: There is no reason that some narcissistic scrooge should be accepted to medical school and a caring person who is passionate about medicine should not. If you don't love medicine why would you do it for money? That would be a really depressing life. Now, that being said, I don't think it's necessarily bad to care about money so long as you also care about medicine. It just should be a person's focus and driving factor. Let's face it, we're all human and we do care about money. But it is also necessary to care about the job we do and the people we work with.

 

[NickNaylor]

Hourly rates run in that range. This is 1st hand knowledge. Of course, if you work for a firm it gets a cut. Taxes take a cut, etc.

This also assumes a mature career. In a firm, attorneys start out as associates and within several years make partner or start their own business.

If a lawyer is billing $300/hr, that means they have a net salary $624,000. That's just not based in reality in any sense for the average lawyer.