Why not Canadian Medical School?

[harveyking]

Since the education quality is kind of the same in Canada with a quarter of the US medical school tuition. Why don't most of us apply there?

Is it because of the license system or the residency match?

If a canadian went to US medical school, will it be harder as an international medical student to go for the residency program as well as applying a Green Card?

Thanks very much for your input.

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[notdeadyet]

Canadian medical schools are much harder to get in to for Americans than US medical schools. US medical schools are very hard for Candians to get in to.

 

[Rafa]

Because I'm not a Canadian citizen.

 

[FloridaMD]

Because I'm not a Canadian citizen.

It is virtually impossible to get in canadian school, some schools do not even accept applications from other Canadian provinces, let alone from US.

 

[harveyking]

Oh, that make sense. My cousin is now second year in UBC and he really want to get into US medical school (maybe because of better economy or working environment?), but the tuition is not supported by Canada to let him went into a US medical school. So, he has to pay a lot anyway to get in a US medical school.

I do see medical school is tough to get in in both countries.

Thanks.

 

[harveyking]

Here comes another question, which is harder?

1. US citizen gets in Canadian Medical School.
or
2. Canadian citizen gets in US Medical School.

Interesting though.

 

[harveyking]

Here comes another question, which is harder?

1. US citizen gets in Canadian Medical School.
or
2. Canadian citizen gets in US Medical School.

Interesting though.

 

[trustwomen]

Here comes another question, which is harder?

1. US citizen gets in Canadian Medical School.
or
2. Canadian citizen gets in US Medical School.

From what I understand, #1 is generally harder. There are always exceptions, of course.

It is almost certainly easier for a non-trad Canadian student to get into med school in the US than in Canada, because US allopathic schools are kinder to non-trads (plus there's DO, which is a whole other ball of wax and doesn't exist in Canada).

 

[fatmagi]

Here comes another question, which is harder?

1. US citizen gets in Canadian Medical School.

Virtually impossible. Most Canadian schools REQUIRE you to be a citizen/permanent resident. Plus Canadians have a hard enough time getting in themselves (25% of applicants admitted to at least one Canadian medical school compared to 50% of American applicants admitted to at least one American allopathic school).

McGill is the one exception to this rule. They accept ~16 Americans every year. It's actually easier for an American to get into McGill than an out-of-province Canadian (probably b/c the Americans pay higher tuition on par with American med school). In general, it's very difficult for out-of-province Canadians to get into a medical school in another province... plus they pay higher tuition than in-province tuition.

2. Canadian citizen gets in US Medical School.

Very doable. Canadian universities are very highly respected. I know dozens of Canadians in American medical schools. The only problem is cost. Unlike Americans, Canadians do not get US federal aid for American med school. Most of the Canadians I know at US schools are either dual citizens or permanent residents (often did their undergrad in the US). The others, who have "international student" status, are borrowing a LOT of money.

My recommendation... unless you're a US citizen or permanent resident, take advantage of subsidized Canadian education. Do your training in Canada. And if you still want to work in the States, explore options to get licensed and/or do fellowships in the US. There are lots of fantastic Canadian-trained doctors practicing in the US.

 

[notdeadyet]

McGill is the one exception to this rule. They accept ~16 Americans every year.

I believe Uof T takes some Americans as well.

Very doable. Canadian universities are very highly respected. I know dozens of Canadians in American medical schools. .... Most of the Canadians I know at US schools are either dual citizens or permanent residents (often did their undergrad in the US).

Actually, it's not very do-able for Canadians to come to U.S. medical schools. The reason that most of the Candians you know are permanent residents/citizens is that many/most US medical schools require it. Very few international students are admitted to US medical schools. It's a challenge. I think there's a thread going that has a link listinig which US medical schools Canadians can apply to without papers.

 

[Acherona]

Since the education quality is kind of the same in Canada with a quarter of the US medical school tuition. Why don't most of us apply there?

Is it because of the license system or the residency match?

It's because of the snow.

There's no problem with licensing or matching as all the canadian schools are part of the LCME. I think more people don't apply simply because they are unaware the option exists. There are not that many americans who graduate from canadian med schools so the info doesn't get around. Also, it's true that McGill is basically the only option and has only ~12 spots, but the acceptance rate for internationals is probably equivalent to mid-upper tier schools in the US since the applicant pool is so much smaller.

Also the tuition is more like a half of US private med tuition.

As for Canadians going to the states, they have to pay full tuition up front if they are not american citizens which is reason enough.

 

[Crazy4F1]

...i think it's mostly b/c i couldnt figure out the mcgill application.

that, and many of the schools only teach in french (well, the quebec ones anyway, and theyre the closest to me!)

 

[TheOpsonizer]

U of T takes a MAXIMUM of 7 international applicants per year.

http://www.facmed.utoronto.ca/English/page-13-15974-1.html

 

[allthaticanbe]

As a Canadian I can honestly tell you to forget Canadian medicals school if you don't have great stats, even then its up in the air since its almost 50% is interview and EC's (and let me tell you something...premed Canadians are a bit insane which I kinda understand since there are only a few med schools).
Anyways if you really want the Canadian experience try for McGill they love you Americans or Toronto( they just want your money).

 

[Acherona]

You basically don't want to go to the french schools anyway unless you want to live in quebec the rest of your life.

Canada has the same population as the state of california. This is why there are only 17 med schools (meanwhile california has 8 schools). The school: population ratio is essentially equivalent to the US. Why canadians like to claim there are "so few schools" eludes me. Maybe they forget 9/10 of their country is uninhabitable.

 

[leviathan]

You basically don't want to go to the french schools anyway unless you want to live in quebec the rest of your life.

Canada has the same population as the state of california. This is why there are only 17 med schools (meanwhile california has 8 schools). The school: population ratio is essentially equivalent to the US. Why canadians like to claim there are "so few schools" eludes me. Maybe they forget 9/10 of their country is uninhabitable.

I don't have the stats in front of me, but there is a much better ratio in the US for schoolsopulation.

 

[Rafa]

The scientific way to settle this would be to compare the applicants:spots ratio of Canada to that of the US. Here it's something like 40,000 applicants for 20,000 spots. What is it over there?

 

[operationivy]

I am a US student and have decided that I really want to apply to McGill....seems like a great school.

 

[Darlaa]

Ontario Stats

At Northern Ontario MS last year, 2098 applications for 56 seats http://www.normed.ca/prospect/admissions/unsuccessful.htm

McMaster was 4602:162
UoT 2763:224
UoOttawa 3161:123 (English and French combined)
Queen's 2205:100
Western 2531:147
http://www.ouac.on.ca/omsas/pdf/rc_omsas_e.pdf

5577 individuals vying for 806 seats. Definately not 2:1 ratio.

 

[Miami_med]

Ontario Stats

At Northern Ontario MS last year, 2098 applications for 56 seats http://www.normed.ca/prospect/admissions/unsuccessful.htm

McMaster was 4602:162
UoT 2763:224
UoOttawa 3161:123 (English and French combined)
Queen's 2205:100
Western 2531:147
http://www.ouac.on.ca/omsas/pdf/rc_omsas_e.pdf

5577 individuals vying for 806 seats. Definately not 2:1 ratio.

Most people probably applied to more than one school. Last year down here in Miami, we had ~4000:180. This is not even a top 20 school in the US. I've seen schools that had >7000 applicants. people apply to more than one place. Your numbers look a lot like those in the US.

 

[Darlaa]

Most people probably applied to more than one school. Last year down here in Miami, we had ~4000:180. This is not even a top 20 school in the US. I've seen schools that had >7000 applicants. people apply to more than one place. Your numbers look a lot like those in the US.

If you look at just applications submitted, including the more than one submissions, it's 17312:806. The 5577 was the total number of applicants. Judging from the number of applications I see on the mdapplicants web pages I'm not at all surprised the Miami numbers are so big

To think I had a hard time pulling out apps for 6 schools, my hats off to you guys for doing twice than and more!

 

[WantsThisBad]

metric system.

 

[Acherona]

The scientific way to settle this would be to compare the applicants:spots ratio of Canada to that of the US. Here it's something like 40,000 applicants for 20,000 spots. What is it over there?

Not necessarily since I think on average canadians apply to fewer schools than americans. People are less mobile in general and tend to stay in-province due to the lower tuition. But the countries seem pretty equivlant in this regard anyway. A possibly better comparison is the population to school ratio. In the US it's 300 million/ 125 schools = 2.4 million/school. In Canada it's 32 million/ 17 schools = 1.9/ school. Again, pretty equivalent numbers, if not a better ratio for canadians. Granted the number of spots/school may not be exactly the same but it gives you a rough idea.

 

[drbear]

Since the education quality is kind of the same in Canada with a quarter of the US medical school tuition. Why don't most of us apply there?

Is it because of the license system or the residency match?

If a canadian went to US medical school, will it be harder as an international medical student to go for the residency program as well as applying a Green Card?

Thanks very much for your input.

Check out the MSAR. If I'm not mistaken, only Canadian perm residents/citizens are eligible for Canadian med schools. That's probably why people from US generally don't apply there.

 

[allthaticanbe]

^No...UofT and McGill offer places to US students. MacMaster use to but they froze international applicants for now.

 

[MadHopsMD]

generally 1 out of 2.5 ppl get in American schools (16K versus 40K applicants). In canada, it is much worse. I believe the ratio was 1 out of 5 students last year.

Take me for example. I will have gotten zero interviews in Canada (dont make the GPA and MCAT Cut offs), but already have interviews at 6 American universities. Mind you this is even though my stats are impressive. 34 MCAT and 3.72 GPA. However, a 9 in one section pretty much kills me (western, queens), and for those schools i make the cut offs my gpa is not competitive (toronto, mac, ottawa, out of province).

American is the LAND of oppurtunity. That's not a joke.

Cheers!

 

[Dayne]

You basically don't want to go to the french schools anyway unless you want to live in quebec the rest of your life.

Canada has the same population as the state of california. This is why there are only 17 med schools (meanwhile california has 8 schools). The school: population ratio is essentially equivalent to the US. Why canadians like to claim there are "so few schools" eludes me. Maybe they forget 9/10 of their country is uninhabitable.

I think that it's much more complex than counting the number of med schools and dividing by the total population. California residents can apply to schools in other states in significant numbers. In Canada, on the other hand, there is a lot of provincial regionalism when it comes to med schools (and in even busineess and trade BTW) - more so than the US. The different provinces usually reserve at least 90-95% of the spots in the med schools for provincial residents. And there are no private schools.

I think that a lot of complaining for the lack of med schools in Canada comes from the province of Ontario. And I don't blame them. Close to 40% of the population is in Ontario. And there are 5 med schools in Ontario. 5 medical schools for 13 million people may seem okay, but it's important to keep in mind that in a lot of cases the rest of Canada is applying for these spots as well because schools in Ontario (except McMaster) do not restrict against out-of-province applicants. But the same is not true of other provinces, where Ontario residents can't really apply because of the stringent quotas. In fact, one would probably need just as high or higher scores to get into the very few spots available in provinces outside of Ontario. Those spots I guess are won by the students with steller stats (3.90 GPA, 30+), but actually want to go live in another specific province.

The schools in Ontario usually require pretty high stats. The mean GPA for UofT- 3.87, McMaster-3.84, Ottawa-3.85, Queens - 3.7(minimum) and 32+ (minimum) on the MCAT. I don't know the average stats for the other school (UWestern). Moreover, of the 17 medical schools in different parts of Canada, quite of few only have only 50-60 seats in total (i.e. NOMS, Memorial, USask, etc.)

Of course, one can't really blame the schools for reserving seats for their locals because they have a mandate to serve their own local tax-paying populations. It's just the reality of the situation.

 

[Acherona]

I think that a lot of complaining for the lack of med schools in Canada comes from the province of Ontario.

That's fair. Meanwhile, Quebec kids have a nearly 50% chance of acceptance to mcgill.

 

[Dayne]

Yeah, I have heard that about McGill as well. The reasons are that the language of instruction is in English and that it requires the MCAT. The other 3 schools in Quebec teach in French and don't require the MCAT. So, most French-speaking Quebecors simply don't want to go through the hassle of writing the MCAT and going to a school of a different language. That leaves a reduced number of Quebec-resident applicants for McGill.

 

[boulux]

Yeah, I have heard that about McGill as well. The reasons are that the language of instruction is in English and that it requires the MCAT. The other 3 schools in Quebec teach in French and don't require the MCAT. So, most French-speaking Quebecors simply don't want to go through the hassle of writing the MCAT and going to a school of a different language. That leaves a reduced number of Quebec-resident applicants for McGill.

I don't want to open a giant can of worm, but that makes me think about a really serious issue. Do you know that Université de Montréal has been the school with the best results for the LMCC for 5 years straight and they don't require the MCAT.

 

[Dayne]

I don't really know how good of an indicator the MCAT is in the preformance on those exams. But I am sure the students and curriculum at Universite de Montreal and other French-speaking schools are top-notch.

 

[hp540]

I think that a lot of complaining for the lack of med schools in Canada comes from the province of Ontario. And I don't blame them.

Here here! The competition for Ontario students is ridiculous and random!!

 

[Acherona]

I don't want to open a giant can of worm, but that makes me think about a really serious issue. Do you know that Université de Montréal has been the school with the best results for the LMCC for 5 years straight and they don't require the MCAT.

Why would a french school require an english exam?
I can't comment on UdeM or the LMCC, but the premed kids about half of whom are french clearly consider themselves the cream of the crop for having gotten into Mcgill. But they don't have to take the mcat either which I could see as a deterrent if english is not your native language.

 

[SMRT]

People are less mobile in general and tend to stay in-province due to the lower tuition.

AFAIK, Quebec is the only province that has differential tuition for in-province versus out-of-province.

This shows the admissions stats for Canadian schools (pages 5-6). The overall acceptance rate is 28.6% but it's a bit misleading because Ontario residents (the largest proportion) have only a 21.0% acceptance rate. Ontarians do get kind of screwed over since most of the Ontario schools don't have OOP/IP quotas whereas the schools in every other province do.

UofT does take up to 7 internationals in theory, but there are only 2 in my class and I don't think they're American.

 

[Darlaa]

AFAIK, Quebec is the only province that has differential tuition for in-province versus out-of-province.

This shows the admissions stats for Canadian schools (pages 5-6). The overall acceptance rate is 28.6% but it's a bit misleading because Ontario residents (the largest proportion) have only a 21.0% acceptance rate. Ontarians do get kind of screwed over since most of the Ontario schools don't have OOP/IP quotas whereas the schools in every other province do.

UofT does take up to 7 internationals in theory, but there are only 2 in my class and I don't think they're American.

That's a great link SMRT-thanks!

You're definately right about Ontarians as OOP's-we get kicked constantly. If you're not from a specific area of Ontario you're automatically knocked down a notch for Uof Ottawa, UWO and NOSM. Those who live in the GTA have zero advantage over other applicants except for a richer base to choose their EC's from.