Why on earth would you go to med school?

[Nilf]

Is 10-12 year commitment really worth a career whose future is very uncertain? Think about it...

I'm almost done with my residency now. There is no way I would do it over if I could turn back the clock 8 years. I don't mean to flame... I'm just amazed how premeds could be so brainwashed to flock into medical schools in ever increasing numbers. There are so many other careers out there, which do not carry such a tremendous opportunity cost.

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[Laker4Life]

Is 10-12 year commitment really worth a career whose future is very uncertain? Think about it...

I'm almost done with my residency now. There is no way I would do it over if I could turn back the clock 8 years. I don't mean to flame... I'm just amazed how premeds could be so brainwashed to flock into medical schools in ever increasing numbers. There are so many other careers out there, which do not carry such a tremendous opportunity cost.

why uncertain future? are u having a hard time finding a job? how about having your own private practice? what causes the change of heart? did you wake up one morning and decided medicine is not for you? is it because the residency is too stressful? tell me so i can help you.

 

[Concubine]

Is 10-12 year commitment really worth a career whose future is very uncertain? Think about it...

I'm almost done with my residency now. There is no way I would do it over if I could turn back the clock 8 years. I don't mean to flame... I'm just amazed how premeds could be so brainwashed to flock into medical schools in ever increasing numbers. There are so many other careers out there, which do not carry such a tremendous opportunity cost.

I imagine there will be a lot of premeds here that will go through and think the same thing at your stage. I imagine there are also a lot that will go through and wouldn't give up what the did for the world. I think it all depends on your motivations going in. What were yours?

 

[Phoenix.]

Check out this thread, OP:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=485968

 

[Maxprime]

I would never go on Earth, but on Mars . . .

 

[Nilf]

I imagine there will be a lot of premeds here that will go through and think the same thing at your stage. I imagine there are also a lot that will go through and wouldn't give up what the did for the world. I think it all depends on your motivations going in. What were yours?

My motivation was the same as 99.9% of people on premed forums: to have a prestigious, well-compensated, and intellectually stimulating career with a big degree of autonomy.
A few words about me. I'm in pathology, which is a field as far removed from clinical medicine as possible. My residency choice was the best I have made, ever. Clinical medicine sucks, when you realize it it will be too late. I realized it earlier. I was fortunate to join a good residency and last a very competitive fellowship.
Yet when I look back I cannot but help thinking that I there are so many different, more vibrant and fascinating opportunities outside of medicine. Ironically, increasing number of docs switch over, after all the training and sacrifices. To answer your question, Laker: no, it's not because medschool or residency was 'stressful'.
It's because I sat down, and made a cost-benefit analysis of my past 10 years. I made two columns. In one of them, I added all those countless hours, medschool debt, personal sacrifices, etc. Add them up. Make another column, and put everything that you WOULD have achieved if you didn't go to medschool. You may look at your old college friends and what they do now. Now add both columns together. That's the true cost of career in medicine.

As of uncertain future, open Wall Street Journal, Economist, or NY Times sometimes to get more answers.

 

[Tensyle]

My motivation was the same as 99.9% of people on premed forums: to have a prestigious, well-compensated, and intellectually stimulating career with a big degree of autonomy.
A few words about me. I'm in pathology, which is a field as far removed from clinical medicine as possible. My residency choice was the best I have made, ever. Clinical medicine sucks, when you realize it it will be too late. I realized it earlier. I was fortunate to join a good residency and last a very competitive fellowship.
Yet when I look back I cannot but help thinking that I there are so many different, more vibrant and fascinating opportunities outside of medicine. Ironically, increasing number of docs switch over, after all the training and sacrifices. To answer your question, Laker: no, it's not because medschool or residency was 'stressful'.
It's because I sat down, and made a cost-benefit analysis of my past 10 years. I made two columns. In one of them, I added all those countless hours, medschool debt, personal sacrifices, etc. Add them up. Make another column, and put everything that you WOULD have achieved if you didn't go to medschool. You may look at your old college friends and what they do now. Now add both columns together. That's the true cost of career in medicine.

As of uncertain future, open Wall Street Journal, Economist, or NY Times sometimes to get more answers.

okay no reason to bark at people here. they're just trying to understand why you're saying what you are. As far as I'm concerned, I'm very good in the real estate business but I hate it - it sucks the life out of me. I couldnt see myself being a banker, or a stock broker, or doing any type of engineering - computer, mechanical, electrial, etc. I despise math, and engineering doesnt give me much room there.

I love drawing and recording music too, but I love science a lot more than art and music - i'd rather be at a job that intellectually stimulates me rather than in a field where I earn my bread by selling artwork or playing on stage. Now, I have considered research, as I have done my own project in cancer biology and cell biology...but its wayy too boring sitting in a lab working with stinky liquids and big refridgerators - no offense to the student PhD's out there, but I really cant see myself doing that as a career - the science is interesting but its too monotone for me. Now you may say that as a PhD, i proally woudlnt be doing much labwork myself, but more along the lines of designing the projects. While that seems wonderful, there's the whole writing of the grants that will take up 80 percent of my time, trying to get funded, and especially during these times, you gotta be at the top 5% or so to get NIH funding.

If I go into medicine, I know that even though I may not live a glamorous life, I'll live comfortably after finishing my studies, and I'd be able to do various things with my degree. I wish to volunteer here and there, and I travel a lot - so I could go to different countries and provide care alongside others part of a medical organization. And clinical medicine may suck, but the way I look at it is that these people who come in sick are actually sick - it may have become a chore to you, but the majority of these people (excluding the drug seekers) are in pain. A doctor I shadowed once told me that sometimes you have to take a step back and look at the bigger picture, instead of just looking at the wound or the leg you are repairing.

You are in pathology, which is very respectable - you get the science while minimizing clinical patient contact. Now, as far as a field that may not have a bright future, exactly which field are you thinking of currently, that has a good future? The stockmarket is in the dumps, the housing market is down the drain, and the software engineering industry is being outsourced. Any field you take, you can manipulate it into thinking it doesnt have a future. If we all thought of all fields this way, we would be sitting on the side of the street without any ambition, morals, goals, or values. Your perception of the medical field is as you make it - there are so many physicians out there that I've done research with, shadowed, and been treated by, who love their jobs.

Your perception of the future of medicine is what you make of it - there are good things and then there are the bad. Its up to each of us to decide where on that scale we wish to stand.

 

[Daydreamer2008]

okay no reason to bark at people here. they're just trying to understand why you're saying what you are. As far as I'm concerned, I'm very good in the real estate business but I hate it - it sucks the life out of me. I couldnt see myself being a banker, or a stock broker, or doing any type of engineering - computer, mechanical, electrial, etc. I despise math, and engineering doesnt give me much room there.

I love drawing and recording music too, but I love science a lot more than art and music - i'd rather be at a job that intellectually stimulates me rather than in a field where I earn my bread by selling artwork or playing on stage. Now, I have considered research, as I have done my own project in cancer biology and cell biology...but its wayy too boring sitting in a lab working with stinky liquids and big refridgerators - no offense to the student PhD's out there, but I really cant see myself doing that as a career - the science is interesting but its too monotone for me. Now you may say that as a PhD, i proally woudlnt be doing much labwork myself, but more along the lines of designing the projects. While that seems wonderful, there's the whole writing of the grants that will take up 80 percent of my time, trying to get funded, and especially during these times, you gotta be at the top 5% or so to get NIH funding.

If I go into medicine, I know that even though I may not live a glamorous life, I'll live comfortably after finishing my studies, and I'd be able to do various things with my degree. I wish to volunteer here and there, and I travel a lot - so I could go to different countries and provide care alongside others part of a medical organization. And clinical medicine may suck, but the way I look at it is that these people who come in sick are actually sick - it may have become a chore to you, but the majority of these people (excluding the drug seekers) are in pain. A doctor I shadowed once told me that sometimes you have to take a step back and look at the bigger picture, instead of just looking at the wound or the leg you are repairing.

You are in pathology, which is very respectable - you get the science while minimizing clinical patient contact. Now, as far as a field that may not have a bright future, exactly which field are you thinking of currently, that has a good future? The stockmarket is in the dumps, the housing market is down the drain, and the software engineering industry is being outsourced. Any field you take, you can manipulate it into thinking it doesnt have a future. If we all thought of all fields this way, we would be sitting on the side of the street without any ambition, morals, goals, or values. Your perception of the medical field is as you make it - there are so many physicians out there that I've done research with, shadowed, and been treated by, who love their jobs.

Your perception of the future of medicine is what you make of it - there are good things and then there are the bad. Its up to each of us to decide where on that scale we wish to stand.

 

[Doublecortin]

Is 10-12 year commitment really worth a career whose future is very uncertain? Think about it...

I'm almost done with my residency now. There is no way I would do it over if I could turn back the clock 8 years. I don't mean to flame... I'm just amazed how premeds could be so brainwashed to flock into medical schools in ever increasing numbers. There are so many other careers out there, which do not carry such a tremendous opportunity cost.

are you kidding??? Doctor is probably is one of the most secure jobs out there. I mean, why would all the people just all of a sudden stop falling sick? Yeah, you can say that physicians aren't being compensated as they used to, they are losing their independence to CEOs of insurance companies and the government, etc. but to say that doctors' future is very uncertain is rubbish. The number of medical school seats is very tightly regulated and there is projected to be a HUGE physician shortage in the future, especially with all these baby boomers retiring.

C'om dude, I think you are troll

 

[45408]

Suggest a better option.

 

[lllasd]

a 10-12 year commitment would probably mean youre going into an intense specialty - those people are usually more excited about what they do and make some big bucks... (unless youre including college in that, which would be pretty unfair)

for most its more like an 8 year commitment...

 

[Nilf]

are you kidding??? Doctor is probably is one of the most secure jobs out there. I mean, why would all the people just all of a sudden stop falling sick? Yeah, you can say that physicians aren't being compensated as they used to, they are losing their independence to CEOs of insurance companies and the government, etc. but to say that doctors' future is very uncertain is rubbish. The number of medical school seats is very tightly regulated and there is projected to be a HUGE physician shortage in the future, especially with all these baby boomers retiring.

C'om dude, I think you are troll

I'm sorry that my post sounded inflammatory enough to make you think I'm trolling. I'm not. It's not about job security; it's much more than that. I meant that the field will undergo tremendous changes in each and every aspect of it. Literally everything, from physicians' much envied autonomy, job availability, reimbursements, patient profile, patient contact; it will be very very different when you guys are about to start practice. US will have to change the way it delivers healthcare, everyone agrees about that, and me and you guys will be the first generation of physicians to bear the brunt of it.

 

[Nilf]

a 10-12 year commitment would probably mean youre going into an intense specialty - those people are usually more excited about what they do and make some big bucks... (unless youre including college in that, which would be pretty unfair)

for most its more like an 8 year commitment...

Medical knowledge is expanding exponentially, there is no such thing as not intense specialty. What specialty are you interested in if you know up front that you will not do a fellowship?

 

[Nilf]

Suggest a better option.

Only you can do it. It's your life. I can only tell you why medicine might not be the best option out there.

 

[Nilf]

okay no reason to bark at people here. they're just trying to understand why you're saying what you are. As far as I'm concerned, I'm very good in the real estate business but I hate it - it sucks the life out of me. I couldnt see myself being a banker, or a stock broker, or doing any type of engineering - computer, mechanical, electrial, etc. I despise math, and engineering doesnt give me much room there.

I love drawing and recording music too, but I love science a lot more than art and music - i'd rather be at a job that intellectually stimulates me rather than in a field where I earn my bread by selling artwork or playing on stage. Now, I have considered research, as I have done my own project in cancer biology and cell biology...but its wayy too boring sitting in a lab working with stinky liquids and big refridgerators - no offense to the student PhD's out there, but I really cant see myself doing that as a career - the science is interesting but its too monotone for me. Now you may say that as a PhD, i proally woudlnt be doing much labwork myself, but more along the lines of designing the projects. While that seems wonderful, there's the whole writing of the grants that will take up 80 percent of my time, trying to get funded, and especially during these times, you gotta be at the top 5% or so to get NIH funding.

If I go into medicine, I know that even though I may not live a glamorous life, I'll live comfortably after finishing my studies, and I'd be able to do various things with my degree. I wish to volunteer here and there, and I travel a lot - so I could go to different countries and provide care alongside others part of a medical organization. And clinical medicine may suck, but the way I look at it is that these people who come in sick are actually sick - it may have become a chore to you, but the majority of these people (excluding the drug seekers) are in pain. A doctor I shadowed once told me that sometimes you have to take a step back and look at the bigger picture, instead of just looking at the wound or the leg you are repairing.

You are in pathology, which is very respectable - you get the science while minimizing clinical patient contact. Now, as far as a field that may not have a bright future, exactly which field are you thinking of currently, that has a good future? The stockmarket is in the dumps, the housing market is down the drain, and the software engineering industry is being outsourced. Any field you take, you can manipulate it into thinking it doesnt have a future. If we all thought of all fields this way, we would be sitting on the side of the street without any ambition, morals, goals, or values. Your perception of the medical field is as you make it - there are so many physicians out there that I've done research with, shadowed, and been treated by, who love their jobs.

Your perception of the future of medicine is what you make of it - there are good things and then there are the bad. Its up to each of us to decide where on that scale we wish to stand.

Thank you for a dignified response; however, I got the feeling that you are trying to justify your choice instead of truly weighing cost and benefits of medical school. I never said that medicine has no future. People will always get sick. However, you don't know what you've signing up right now. Medicine will undergo TREMENDOUS changes in near future; the whole managed care revolution will look like a cake compared to that. It sounds like you have a lot of life experiences, and your choice is well thougth out; but many college premeds just don't think that way: they think that medschool will somehow automatically give them the glamour and, let's be honest here, money (check which specialties are the most lucrative and offer good lifestyle, and which are the most competitive).

Seriously: do the cost-benefit analysis. Do it many times. Then ask yourself whether it's worth it.

 

[VoiceofReason]

Working from the assumption that all jobs are just that in the end.. The maximally cynical answer to your question is that (for me) cutting people with scalpels and using extremely high tech instruments probably remains interesting for longer than anything else.

 

[Law2Doc]

Only you can do it. It's your life. I can only tell you why medicine might not be the best option out there.

I agree with this.-- You don't pick a career by taking suggestions. You pick a career by exploring multiple options and then deciding on the one that suits you best. The danger I see all too often is that a lot of folks in pre-allo don't explore other options. They somehow decide in grade school that they want to be a doctor, or are pushed there by a parent, or by some misperception of the field. If someone does check out other options and only then picks medicine, then more power to them, and I suspect they will be happier and with fewer regrets having done that exercise.

OP, I think you have to think back and consider whether when you were 20 and applying to med schools and if you read a post such as yours, how much impact would it have on your own path? Probably none. If however you provide concrete examples of things that make your life hell, rather than the long investment and some vague sense of cost benefit, stress, and investment of time, or upcoming healthcare changes, then maybe you have a shot at making an impact with someone. But honestly, I kind of doubt your approach will have any impact, even though for a number of folks in pre-allo, a more effective wake-up call in terms of what medicine in the 21st century has now become might be useful.

 

[Phoenix.]

I agree with this.-- You don't pick a career by taking suggestions. You pick a career by exploring multiple options and then deciding on the one that suits you best. The danger I see all too often is that a lot of folks in pre-allo don't explore other options. They somehow decide in grade school that they want to be a doctor, or are pushed there by a parent, or by some misperception of the field. If someone does check out other options and only then picks medicine, then more power to them, and I suspect they will be happier and with fewer regrets having done that exercise.

Law2Doc: Speaking of which, you're a career-changer yourself. Are you happy with your switch?

OP: When you compare where you're at to your college friends who may have gone on to careers in law, business, etc., it's not comparing apples to apples unless you're just doing a financial comparison. They may have a nicer home, car, money in the bank, etc., but there's more to life than money. I'm sure you're aware of that, but I seem to hear this "grass is greener" argument a lot from physicians in residency or just out of residency. I'd be curious to hear if physicians who have practiced 5+ years also agree. In addition, everyone can cope to a grass is always greener on the other side perspective. Ignorance is bliss when it comes to what living life on the other side of the fence entails.

 

[nevercold]

I meant that the field will undergo tremendous changes in each and every aspect of it. Literally everything, from physicians' much envied autonomy, job availability, reimbursements, patient profile, patient contact; it will be very very different when you guys are about to start practice. US will have to change the way it delivers healthcare, everyone agrees about that, and me and you guys will be the first generation of physicians to bear the brunt of it.

I have to say that I don't think much of your comments. You are definitely prophesying doom where I don't think any is much to be found. I also don't think that you have a healthy perception of the value of being in the medical field.

Job availability will NOT decrease. There may be specific aspects of certain subspecialties that are absorbed into other specialities or altered by new technologies, but people get sick. We are no where near controlling chronic diseases, infectious diseases, or congenital diseases. In four years we will need doctors. In 20 years we will need doctors.

Patient profile and contact will change? Will physical exams and medical histories become unnecessary or something? Will people sudden learn to not binge drink and not smoke on their own? Will parents stop being concerned about every little imperfection in their children and their children's health? Sure we have more Hispanics in the United States, but they are people just as anyone else. Rich or poor, people get sick. Nothing is changing with the patient population.

Autonomy and reimbursements are likely under the largest "threat." However, the demands of medicine are great enough that there would never be enough political or economic force to drive physician salaries down below the higher percentages--at least not on any short term time scale.

Finally, it would be foolish to think that medicine won't change. IT IS ALWAYS CHANGING. When people reflect on how medicine was practiced even 20 years ago there are remarkable changes that have occurred. The United States needs to improve its healthcare delivery, but the thought that we will have radical changes in the next 5-10 years is silly. The political dichotomy inherent in a two-party system forces a watering-down of more radical changes that could greatly restructure healthcare in the US.

I am not going into medicine for the money or the autonomy or the prestige. I am going into medicine because I love science and I love thinking and I love being able to offer people life, both in quantity and quality. To be able to indulge myself in each of the three to a tremendous degree day in and day out provides me with an incredible sense of personal reward. I fail to see changes that will take those out of medicine.

 

[nevercold]

I would also add that a "cost-benefit" analysis sounds like a horrible way to choose a profession.

The adage, "Find something you love to do and you'll never have to work a day in your life" is a very cliche one, but has sincere meaning.

 

[Law2Doc]

Law2Doc: Speaking of which, you're a career-changer yourself. Are you happy with your switch?

I am, but feel I am happier still, having had the experience of trying my hand at both. I might not have been as happy where I am now without having come from whence I came. Both are great careers for certain people and horrible careers for others. And often people think they will be happy at one career and probably would have been happier with the other, or another altogether. You only learn this by exploring options. Charging headfirst into medicine without looking around at other choices is a huge mistake. Looking into many possibilities and only then choosing medicine isn't.

 

[ChiDoc27]

To the OP: I don't want to be disrespectful, and I completely understand than many physicians feel both frustrated and let down, but you keep referring to a "cost-benefit" analysis. Life really cant be broken into a simple pros and cons, cost analysis survey. For every unhappy doctor, such as yourself, there is one who loves his or her job. My neighbor is a neonatal specialist and says that she loves it more than anything. As for 10-12 years of training, that really isn't too bad when you think about it either. In any profession, you must rise on the corporate ladder- how many CFOs or directors simply get placed there after a bachelor's degree? None really. Most get an MBA- two to three years, then work for many years, many hours per day, almost everyday of the year, to have that type of life. With any profession, sacrifices must be made, and medicine really isn't any different.

 

[Tensyle]

Thank you for a dignified response; however, I got the feeling that you are trying to justify your choice instead of truly weighing cost and benefits of medical school. I never said that medicine has no future. People will always get sick. However, you don't know what you've signing up right now. Medicine will undergo TREMENDOUS changes in near future; the whole managed care revolution will look like a cake compared to that. It sounds like you have a lot of life experiences, and your choice is well thougth out; but many college premeds just don't think that way: they think that medschool will somehow automatically give them the glamour and, let's be honest here, money (check which specialties are the most lucrative and offer good lifestyle, and which are the most competitive).

Seriously: do the cost-benefit analysis. Do it many times. Then ask yourself whether it's worth it.

As far as I see it, there is not "cost" to compare to benefits, becuase I have explored my career options thoroughly. In fact, the costs have to be built into the benefits for one to actually realize they are benefits indeed. So yes, there is the benefit of treating people, maybe making decent money, and having job security, but all of those benefits only come from making sacrifices (aka costs). Yes, there is the fat sum of money you need to shell out to go to medschool, but in reality, if this is REALLY what you want to do, then money should not prevent you from doing it. We cant really take any money with us to the grave. And we only live once - so why not do what we want to, and be willing to pay money for it?

A little about me: I used to live in utter poverty in a third world country during my childhood. I've suffered from not having any medical care during my childhood and countless good people have come to help me when I almost died as a child. 90% of these good people were doctors....not just any doctors, but doctors who gave a damn. My fam and I have worked extremely hard to get where I am today, and if I dont give a damn about those who suffer how I used to, those doctors broke their backs in vain. I have explored all the other fields that I can see myself doing, but I always end up thinkging about medicine. Yes, theres a lot of costs involved, and yes there's tons of sacrifice and many years go by during educaiton and training. But there's where my happiness lies, and no amount of money can buy happiness.

You are right - may premeds just blindly believe the possible glamour they may get from medicine, and how they just go into the field cuz their parents want them to, or cuz they just randomly said it one day when they were kids. But there are many out there who know what they are doing, and because they know what they are doing and what they are getting themselves into, your question (aka the title of this thread) is a little too fierce and loaded. Fierce, because it doesnt take into consideration other aspects that play into people's decisions to go into medicine (apart from glamour). and...Loaded, because your question clearly expresses your viewpoint of medicine. Since many people have different viewpoints than the next person, your question just answered itself - its possible people want to go into medicine for other reasons than you did - it didnt work out to your satisfaction, but it may work out to someone else's.

Also, if you could clarify HOW the medical field is gonna change tremendously, I'd appreciate it. It's not like doctors will run out of jobs - they will still be compensated well - just not compensated as much as they want to be, probably. But doesnt everyone want more money for the work they do?

 

[Tensyle]

To the OP: I don't want to be disrespectful, and I completely understand than many physicians feel both frustrated and let down, but you keep referring to a "cost-benefit" analysis. Life really cant be broken into a simple pros and cons, cost analysis survey. For every unhappy doctor, such as yourself, there is one who loves his or her job. My neighbor is a neonatal specialist and says that she loves it more than anything. As for 10-12 years of training, that really isn't too bad when you think about it either. In any profession, you must rise on the corporate ladder- how many CFOs or directors simply get placed there after a bachelor's degree? None really. Most get an MBA- two to three years, then work for many years, many hours per day, almost everyday of the year, to have that type of life. With any profession, sacrifices must be made, and medicine really isn't any different.

brilliant

 

[Nilf]

I

I am not going into medicine for the money or the autonomy or the prestige. I am going into medicine because I love science and I love thinking and I love being able to offer people life, both in quantity and quality. To be able to indulge myself in each of the three to a tremendous degree day in and day out provides me with an incredible sense of personal reward. I fail to see changes that will take those out of medicine.

I don't want to discuss the future of healthcare, it's way to broad for this topic. See the forum on healthcare policy for more.

If you're willing to enter the field that will definitely be tremendously changed by the time you practice, kudos to you. The main point I'm trying to make, tho, is that EVEN NOW medicine is simply not a good option to a twentysomething with college education in the US.

Your 'love of science', 'thinking', 'offering people life in quantity and quality' strikes me of a platitude, no offence. A previous poster wanted some concrete examples, instead of vague cost analysis, that could dissuade premeds from being premeds. Here I go...

1. First year of medschool. My college friend is showing up with a new BMW, and he's living in a major metropolitan area. I'm 50K in debt, living in a rented apartment with 2 other medstudents.
2. Third year of medschool. Broke up with my girlfriend because I'm not seeing her more than once per two weeks. Started dated another medstudent because those are the only girls I'm seeing these days.
3. Third year of medschool. My Ob-Gyn attending tells me to get out of medschool and stop wasting my time on medicine
a. one week later, my Ob-gyn resident says that she would rather be a flight attendant than do it over.
b. one month later, I witness how Ob-gyns go ON STRIKE. That's right, entire Ob-gyn department in the teaching hospital was out on strike.
4. Third year of medschool. People are started to weigh residency options. Opportunism is the rule: gas, rads, derm are the most coveted spots. Guess why...
5. Fourth year of medschool. My college friend has changed two jobs so far, each time because he got a better offer. He just bought his own condo. I'm 200K in debt.
I could keep going, but you catch the drift.

 

[Doublecortin]

Is 10-12 year commitment really worth a career whose future is very uncertain? Think about it...

I'm almost done with my residency now. There is no way I would do it over if I could turn back the clock 8 years. I don't mean to flame... I'm just amazed how premeds could be so brainwashed to flock into medical schools in ever increasing numbers. There are so many other careers out there, which do not carry such a tremendous opportunity cost.

what do you wish you had done? What field do you think you'd be happier in? I personally don't see myself doing anything else for the next 30-40 years and being happy?

 

[Begaster]

Yeah, you got into it for money and now you're realizing that it was a stupid, stupid move. If you're in medicine for the money or the prestige, you're going to be in a world of hurt. I thought that was a fairly common understanding in the premed world.

 

[Tensyle]

I don't want to discuss the future of healthcare, it's way to broad for this topic. See the forum on healthcare policy for more.

If you're willing to enter the field that will definitely be tremendously changed by the time you practice, kudos to you. The main point I'm trying to make, tho, is that EVEN NOW medicine is simply not a good option to a twentysomething with college education in the US.

Your 'love of science', 'thinking', 'offering people life in quantity and quality' strikes me of a platitude, no offence. A previous poster wanted some concrete examples, instead of vague cost analysis, that could dissuade premeds from being premeds. Here I go...

1. First year of medschool. My college friend is showing up with a new BMW, and he's living in a major metropolitan area. I'm 50K in debt, living in a rented apartment with 2 other medstudents.
2. Third year of medschool. Broke up with my girlfriend because I'm not seeing her more than once per two weeks. Started dated another medstudent because those are the only girls I'm seeing these days.
3. Third year of medschool. My Ob-Gyn attending tells me to get out of medschool and stop wasting my time on medicine
a. one week later, my Ob-gyn resident says that she would rather be a flight attendant than do it over.
b. one month later, I witness how Ob-gyns go ON STRIKE. That's right, entire Ob-gyn department in the teaching hospital was out on strike.
4. Third year of medschool. People are started to weigh residency options. Opportunism is the rule: gas, rads, derm are the most coveted spots. Guess why...
5. Fourth year of medschool. My college friend has changed two jobs so far, each time because he got a better offer. He just bought his own condo. I'm 200K in debt.
I could keep going, but you catch the drift.

so your cost benefit analysis is this:

1. you see another cribbing doctor so you follow his/her line of thought.
2. One relationship goes bad and broke off.You're stuck dating medstudents (even though lots of them are dating material cuz of their brains, maturity and looks)
3. You dont size up to your friends in terms of money.

If this is the cost and benefit analysis that I have to do many times.....

 

[Jolie South]

what do you wish you had done? What field do you think you'd be happier in? I personally don't see myself doing anything else for the next 30-40 years and being happy?

Seriously, I've explored all the "science" and health options already.

public health . . .negatory
research . . .not interested
pharm/biotech sales . . . will never happen
allied health. . . not enough intellectual challenge
corporate food science . . . too corporate
science teacher . . . not into kids

Medicine is the best fit. I've already faced up to the negatives of this career and still think it's what I need to do.

 

[Law2Doc]

1. First year of medschool. My college friend is showing up with a new BMW, and he's living in a major metropolitan area. I'm 50K in debt, living in a rented apartment with 2 other medstudents.
...
People are started to weigh residency options. Opportunism is the rule: gas, rads, derm are the most coveted spots. Guess why...
5. Fourth year of medschool. My college friend has changed two jobs so far, each time because he got a better offer. He just bought his own condo. I'm 200K in debt.
I could keep going, but you catch the drift.

Your drift, from the above quotes, is that you pretty clearly went into medicine for the money, only to realize that there is more elsewhere. If this wasn't first and foremost on your mind, you wouldn't be worrying so much about keeping up with the Jones'es Which is why you needed to have a better reason to go into medicine. As does anyone who is going down this road.

 

[majik1213]

I know that "idealism is difficult to maintain in the world of modern medicine;" however, I'm just not in it for the money .. in fact, i have never looked up salary's for physicians .. they aren't on the streets that's good enough for me

 

[skyeblue0610]

I'm sure there are many doctors out there who for lack of a better word, hate or regret their job but I'm sure that there are just as many and maybe even more who love it.

Why on earth would I go to med school? Because I can't think of myself anywhere else. I stressed every option, nothing brought me the peace that medicine does. I'm a much calmer person now that I've made this choice. I'm stressed as hell in classes but I look past it.

Who cares about the debt? I was going to do law school so I was going to be in debt either way. But is being in debt really THAT big of a deal. Is it that high up on the list.

 

[Tensyle]

I know that "idealism is difficult to maintain in the world of modern medicine;" however, I'm just not in it for the money .. in fact, i have never looked up salary's for physicians .. they aren't on the streets that's good enough for me

 

[Jolie South]

so your cost benefit analysis is this:

1. you see another cribbing doctor so you follow his/her line of thought.
2. One relationship goes bad and broke off.You're stuck dating medstudents (even though lots of them are dating material cuz of their brains, maturity and looks)
3. You dont size up to your friends in terms of money.

If this is the cost and benefit analysis that I have to do many times.....

and who are these peers that are driving beamers now? I've been out of undergrad for 4 years now and none of my friends are banking. they're working at jobs that they sorta like and are jealous that i'm going to school even though i will have to go further into debt to do it.

even my most successful friend who has already moved up to management level at her job drives a 3 year old Xterra and isn't out spending money indiscriminately.

 

[JayJayEPT]

To the OP: I don't want to be disrespectful, and I completely understand than many physicians feel both frustrated and let down, but you keep referring to a "cost-benefit" analysis. Life really cant be broken into a simple pros and cons, cost analysis survey. For every unhappy doctor, such as yourself, there is one who loves his or her job. My neighbor is a neonatal specialist and says that she loves it more than anything. As for 10-12 years of training, that really isn't too bad when you think about it either. In any profession, you must rise on the corporate ladder- how many CFOs or directors simply get placed there after a bachelor's degree? None really. Most get an MBA- two to three years, then work for many years, many hours per day, almost everyday of the year, to have that type of life. With any profession, sacrifices must be made, and medicine really isn't any different.

I agree with you here. I think what they're getting at is that everyone pays dues at some point in their lives. Whatever profession you decide to seek you WILL experience some amount of opportunity costs. And with regard to opportunity cost, there is no set formula for evaluating quality of life..it's all subjective. If I feel that there were more cons to becoming a doctor then of course I would be able to list many opportunity costs.

 

[Law2Doc]

...none of my friends are banking. they're working at jobs that they sorta like and are jealous that i'm going to school even though i will have to go further into debt to do it.

even my most successful friend who has already moved up to management level at her job drives a 3 year old Xterra and isn't out spending money indiscriminately.

You need better friends.

Actually quite a few of my friends drive luxury cars. There are some very lucrative jobs out there, and not just in banking. If your goal is to maximize wealth, there are lots of options, most with a certain amount of risk, but pretty much all will let you become successful sooner and with a higher ceiling than medicine. Which is meaningless if you want medicine for reasons unrelated to money.

 

[Jolie South]

You need better friends.

Actually quite a few of my friends drive luxury cars. There are some very lucrative jobs out there, and not just in banking. If your goal is to maximize wealth, there are lots of options, most with a certain amount of risk, but pretty much all will let you become successful sooner and with a higher ceiling than medicine. Which is meaningless if you want medicine for reasons unrelated to money.

. . .or maybe i'm just not friends with type of people that want to make the most money they possibly can. they're definitely family/friend oriented outdoorsy people for the most part.

 

[Tensyle]

and who are these peers that are driving beamers now? I've been out of undergrad for 4 years now and none of my friends are banking. they're working at jobs that they sorta like and are jealous that i'm going to school even though i will have to go further into debt to do it.

even my most successful friend who has already moved up to management level at her job drives a 3 year old Xterra and isn't out spending money indiscriminately.

Jolie, I think you quoted the wrong person lol

 

[Twiigg]

Everyone keeps talking about how all the $ is in other professions. What other professions...?

And why does that matter if you love what you are doing!? I would rather make 40k/year and absolutely LOVE what i do than make triple digits and dread going to work every day.

 

[Jolie South]

Jolie, I think you quoted the wrong person lol

i was adding to your questioning of the OPs reasoning.

 

[JMedical08]

I have plenty of friends that make well over 100k per year as bankers, and many more that are engineers making 60k per year with a BS. My friends from my master’s program are making 70-80 k/year but you know what? Those jobs like banking, consulting, engineering etc. would bore me to death and they will wake up in 15 years, during an economic downturn, out of a job, and then realize when they take a job for half of what they were making, that the only reason they were at all happy was because of the amount of money that they were making. I think it would be a very bad feeling to have spent my life trying to save a corporation another $1 million when, during that time I could have followed my passion and become a doctor and made a contribution to people and to science instead of riding some economic wave that could pass at any moment.

God, imagine waking up in 20 years to go to work in order to save some company enough money to pay their CEO a higher bonus, that would be a nightmare and would not serve as enough motivation to get me out of bed.

Jobs that pay well are flashy, they may not make you happy. Realize that your friend with the Beamer may have given up his or her soul and happiness for it. If you’re not happy being a doctor, it may not have been right, but it probably doesn’t help to think the “grass is greener” when that may not necessarily be true.

Ok, got all of my thoughts off my chest, sorry for my stream of consciousness.

 

[JaggerPlate]

My motivation was the same as 99.9% of people on premed forums: to have a prestigious, well-compensated, and intellectually stimulating career with a big degree of autonomy.
A few words about me. I'm in pathology, which is a field as far removed from clinical medicine as possible. My residency choice was the best I have made, ever. Clinical medicine sucks, when you realize it it will be too late. I realized it earlier. I was fortunate to join a good residency and last a very competitive fellowship.
Yet when I look back I cannot but help thinking that I there are so many different, more vibrant and fascinating opportunities outside of medicine. Ironically, increasing number of docs switch over, after all the training and sacrifices. To answer your question, Laker: no, it's not because medschool or residency was 'stressful'.
It's because I sat down, and made a cost-benefit analysis of my past 10 years. I made two columns. In one of them, I added all those countless hours, medschool debt, personal sacrifices, etc. Add them up. Make another column, and put everything that you WOULD have achieved if you didn't go to medschool. You may look at your old college friends and what they do now. Now add both columns together. That's the true cost of career in medicine.

As of uncertain future, open Wall Street Journal, Economist, or NY Times sometimes to get more answers.

God this is stupid .... let me explain something that pops up on this board a lot. First and foremost ... what you 'would' have achieved means absolutely nothing. WOULD??? WOULD??? Jesus. Yeah I 'would' have won a million dollars had I played the lottery once in my life because other people in the world win the lottery. Second (and most important) please don't have the absolute misconception that business is some easy world that your beer drinking college buddies stumbled into success with. Business is like anything else in life ... hardwork, talent, *** kissing, and dedication. So please, don't pretend that medicine is the only career that requires paying your dues. Lastly, why don't you drop everything tomorrow and try to start a career on wall street ?? Maybe I-Banking? All stuff that is super easy and you don't have to be extremely talented, top notch ivy leage MBA material to do.

 

[Concubine]

My chronological journey to medicine...

Farming..............hell no
Construction........no
Pilot...................fun, but no
Wildlife Biologist...no, but closer
Paleontology........no, but getting warm
Graphic Design.....fun, but no
Microbiologist.......no, but getting very hot
Medicine.............????

All these jobs and experiences have eventually pointed me to med school. It's been kind of like trying on shoes. Eventually I've found the one that I think will fit.

 

[skyeblue0610]

Everyone keeps talking about how all the $ is in other professions. What other professions...?

And why does that matter if you love what you are doing!? I would rather make 40k/year and absolutely LOVE what i do than make triple digits and dread going to work every day.

I agree. All these other jobs people mention, that aren't as stressful to get to as medicine and bring in the BIG bucks are business oriented YUCK! I'd rather be an elementary teacher than be in the corporate world.
I'm in undergrad and I look through the course catalogs and skim the marketing, business, finance, etc major requirements and classes and go I'll pass.

I had a professor tell me about her friend who makes $200K+ a year selling those annoying ads that appear before a video clip on MSN. Yeah, I'll pass on that job.

 

[Phoenix.]

Everyone keeps talking about how all the $ is in other professions. What other professions...?

Law, for example. IF you go to a very good law school and do very well, you could land a job at a top firm in a big city and be making $165,000 your first year out. Plus a bonus if you work around 2000+ hours. Not too shabby if being an attorney is your passion.

Speaking of cars, I kissed my Lexus goodbye when I decided to go pre-med. Le sigh.

 

[JMedical08]

Interesting idea on opportunity cost, I think the concept is drastically overused. SO look at two alternatives, medicine or business. Let’s say your business friends make 100,000 per year, drive BMWs and live in a condo but they have no meaning. You chose medicine, are in debt, drive an 1988 astrovan and live in a shack, but you get the benefit of doing something meaningful. In my case I have

Alternative 1: Business
Pros
BMW
100k salary
Condo

Cons
No meaning

Alternative 2: Medicine
Pros
Meaning

Cons
Debt
Astrovan
Shack

I can only choose 1 alternative right? So if I make a choice, why should I even consider the “opportunity cost” or the pros of the other alternative. It just comes down to which looks better, choose that one and move on, worrying about opportunity cost is a waste of time. I like the Medicine package more than Business, I choose Medicine, many people trying to take into account opportunity cost end up double-counting it. Be careful!!

 

[skyeblue0610]

Law, for example. IF you go to a very good law school and do very well, you could land a job at a top firm in a big city and be making $165,000 your first year out. Plus a bonus if you work around 2000+ hours. Not too shabby if being an attorney is your passion.

Speaking of cars, I kissed my Lexus goodbye when I decided to go pre-med. Le sigh.

I looked at that too. But the only banking law salaries are in corporate law, etc. I was in it in the world "throw the biggest book I can find at the bad guys" sadly those lawyers make chump change compared to the big wigs in business law. I was encouraged to do medical malpractice though LOL. I even have very good connections with a lawyer who has his own firm under medical malpractice and he's banking millions. (Can you say Vioxx?) Hell, my job was THERE but I didn't want to do that

 

[Twiigg]

High School Teacher.......... still a possibility, actually
College Professor............... probably not
Airforce Pilot..................... i don't have perfect vision (would be my first chocie)
Lawyer............................ too much reading and philosophizing
Policeman........................ if everything else fell through, i think i'd enjoy it
Social Worker................... emotionally tolling and overwhelming
Politics............................ eh, no
Psychologist..................... could also be interesting, but probably not
Doctor............................. very interesting, and fun (i hope!)

 

[PunkmedGirl]

okay no reason to bark at people here. they're just trying to understand why you're saying what you are. As far as I'm concerned, I'm very good in the real estate business but I hate it - it sucks the life out of me. I couldnt see myself being a banker, or a stock broker, or doing any type of engineering - computer, mechanical, electrial, etc. I despise math, and engineering doesnt give me much room there.

I love drawing and recording music too, but I love science a lot more than art and music - i'd rather be at a job that intellectually stimulates me rather than in a field where I earn my bread by selling artwork or playing on stage. Now, I have considered research, as I have done my own project in cancer biology and cell biology...but its wayy too boring sitting in a lab working with stinky liquids and big refridgerators - no offense to the student PhD's out there, but I really cant see myself doing that as a career - the science is interesting but its too monotone for me. Now you may say that as a PhD, i proally woudlnt be doing much labwork myself, but more along the lines of designing the projects. While that seems wonderful, there's the whole writing of the grants that will take up 80 percent of my time, trying to get funded, and especially during these times, you gotta be at the top 5% or so to get NIH funding.

If I go into medicine, I know that even though I may not live a glamorous life, I'll live comfortably after finishing my studies, and I'd be able to do various things with my degree. I wish to volunteer here and there, and I travel a lot - so I could go to different countries and provide care alongside others part of a medical organization. And clinical medicine may suck, but the way I look at it is that these people who come in sick are actually sick - it may have become a chore to you, but the majority of these people (excluding the drug seekers) are in pain. A doctor I shadowed once told me that sometimes you have to take a step back and look at the bigger picture, instead of just looking at the wound or the leg you are repairing.

You are in pathology, which is very respectable - you get the science while minimizing clinical patient contact. Now, as far as a field that may not have a bright future, exactly which field are you thinking of currently, that has a good future? The stockmarket is in the dumps, the housing market is down the drain, and the software engineering industry is being outsourced. Any field you take, you can manipulate it into thinking it doesnt have a future. If we all thought of all fields this way, we would be sitting on the side of the street without any ambition, morals, goals, or values. Your perception of the medical field is as you make it - there are so many physicians out there that I've done research with, shadowed, and been treated by, who love their jobs.

Your perception of the future of medicine is what you make of it - there are good things and then there are the bad. Its up to each of us to decide where on that scale we wish to stand.

Well said I dont think I could have said it any better...actually I know I wouldnt have

 

[prettymonkey]

I would also add that a "cost-benefit" analysis sounds like a horrible way to choose a profession.

it actually made me laugh out loud. not only because it is a horrible way to choose a profession, but his explanation of a "cost-benefit analysis" makes no sense. i am no economist but a cost benefit analysis would mean that you take the benefits in monetary terms of a decision (future income) and subtract the costs of that decision (no income for years and debt).

"It's because I sat down, and made a cost-benefit analysis of my past 10 years. I made two columns. In one of them, I added all those countless hours, medschool debt, personal sacrifices, etc. Add them up. Make another column, and put everything that you WOULD have achieved if you didn't go to medschool. You may look at your old college friends and what they do now. Now add both columns together. That's the true cost of career in medicine."

this is not a cost benefit analysis. here is a cost benefit analysis:

tuition: 4 years of med school @ $50,000 = $200,000
lost wages: 4 years @ $40,000 (job with BS degree high end) = $160,000
other costs would include frustration, sleep deprivation, time with family, friends, etc. the price would be determined by willingness to pay (need a survey or personal decision)

benefits (i am not going to use a discount rate because i am not that bored)
salary: 30 years @ $150,000 (low end salary) = $4,500,000
other benefits include prestige, pride in your work, job satisfaction etc. the price would be determined by willingness to pay)

i am going to assume that frustrations and pride balance (optimistic pre-med) so we will just use the costs and benefits calculated above:
benefits - costs = $4,140,000

this is just somewhere to start from. please add or edit.